Yes, It's Another 'single Black Woman' Thread.....

[SleekandBouncy]

I started a thread on an article I found about the issue of relationship between men and women. It wasn't based on race and had no mention of Black women and echoed A LOT of what we're discussing in many of the "single bw threads." I think BW need to read that article because a fair share of this entire issue is at it's core unrelated to race, but because many of us can only qualify our experiences within the context of being Black we're unable to see the bigger picture. Of course race does add an additional layer and multiplies the severity of many issue. I think it's very important for not only intelligent discussion, but BW's mental well being to have an accurate view of the situation really is as WOMEN.

Matter of fact I'm going to bump that thread now

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

With Jews, it very much depends on how religious the person is in terms of seeking a partner. Since Askhanziam feel that religious inheritance is passed the the matrilinal line, Jewish women are always in the game!

Blacks really have nothing like this factor to consider really, after all Blackness isn't passed on in a gendered way (unlike Judiasm), so it's really rather a non issue when it comes to how BW-BM interrate, IMHO.

I dont think its an fair comparison at all

 

[Carrie A]

tomatoes

 

[Bunny77]

I do understand that we experience the double jeopardy as black women; however I notice that many of these discussions (not aimed at you Bunny) seem to turn into "us v. them." If we can (black women) why can't they (black men)?

But how are we going to change anything if we don't first seek to understand before being understood? How are we really going to thoroughly analyze any issue if we drop the ball at "us v. them."

The thing is, we are different. Our experiences as black women are different than their experiences as black men in many ways.

I don't want to ignore our problems or make excuses for black men, but I do see the benefit in having a discussion that isn't the typical comparison between black men and black women, a comparison that seems to pit us against eachother.

No offense taken.

I think what SummerRain posted about her 6'5", dark-skinned friend feeling like he had to play a role to fit in with white folks in corporate America is probably a good example of something that is a legitimate concern that only a black man (and not a black woman) would face... the whole idea of the big scary black man might be more difficult to overcome than the stereotype of "Shaniqua" with seven kids... the white workers at Goldman Sachs would obviously be able to figure out quickly that a black woman working there is not "Shaniqua," but even if they know that the guy is not "Pookie," they might have a subconscious, visceral reaction to a big dark scary black man.

If that was my man and he wanted to share that with me, I'd be more than willing to listen and attempt to understand.

However... I'm also speaking from the experience of the "arrogant" black men I met in college... since some seem to think that it's cool to say they're arrogant. One dude seemed to think he was so special -- and let black women know this frequently -- because he was in college and did a study abroad program. Now, he came from a not-so-great neighborhood and high school, so perhaps back home, this was a big deal.

So he came at me with that, and I said, "Well, so did I." (Study abroad, attended the same college, etc.). That pissed him off... he said he was used to black women oohing and aahing at the oh-so-rare black man in college... well I told him that he wasn't rare in my world, that my father went to college in the 1970s.

As I got older, I saw more of these types of black men who expected to be worshipped because they got a college degree -- that they were extra-special black men because they went to college, and that I needed to "understand" their struggles because they "overcame" so much to get to that point.

And I thought... uh, generations of black men have done the same before you were a fetus...

Anyway, I often take this, "You need to understand," statement as arrogance, myopia, complete focus on "ME ME ME," and a failure to look at the bigger picture of the quite-privileged place that many educated black men have compared to the past. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to relate or understand THESE types of black men.

I guess in those situations, there just will be no progress, because these particular types of black men don't seem all that interested in moving past their own issues for more realistic conversation to take place.

 

[jamaraa]

I dont think its an fair comparison at all

Why not? Blacks are NOT Jews and have different issues than they do. What's wrong w/ pointing that out? Jews have an incentive towards indogomous marriage that Blacks lack....they believe that religion/Jewish "peoplehood" is passed on from mother to children.

How is it unfair to state that?

Since many AAs fully believe in the "one drop rule" they buy into the idea that Blackness is inherited from either parent, be they intraracially or interracially paired. It's apples and oranges really.

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

Why not? Blacks are NOT Jews and have different issues than they do. What's wrong w/ pointing that out? Jews have an incentive towards indogomous marriage that Blacks lack....they believe that religion/Jewish "peoplehood" is passed on from mother to children.

How is it unfair to state that?

I was AGREEING with you lol. Wo there grasshoppa lol. Darn internet

 

[Swagger]

Exactly! I mean, according to all these books, articles and Nightline specials, NO men of any race are knocking down these women's doors , so why then if someone simply brings up non-black men as a possible option, said black women will then say, "Well, how many of them are interested enough in black women for this to be an option?"

Seriously? I didn't know you needed 100 Chinese men (for example) to ask for your number to then decide that Chinese men are worth dating. And going back to black men, since that's what most black women want, are black men no longer an option if you only go on say, ONE date a year with a black man? Black men aren't beating on your door, so going by this false logic, black men aren't an option for black women.

None of it makes any sense. It's not really that complicated. Think highly of yourself (and not in an arrogant way), create legitimate standards as to the type of mate you want, and choose from the men of that caliber that show interest.

Your options are as broad or as limited as you let them be.

I've always wondered where this "totem pole" was, tbh. If BW are supposed to be at the bottom of it, why are so many NON BW so insecure about THEIR looks and so on? Much of this is fhe "beauty industry" selling unrealistic "aspirational lifestyles" to folks. There's tons of money to be made off insecurity.

However, the negativity you note is extreme and incredibly sad. It's almost as if some BW simply can't envision happiness for themselves and other BW simply because we are BW. erplexed This I find offenseive and pathetic....I simply don't know where it's coming from. Is it the church culture, specific BM saying hurtful things, the drama that takes place on he web, esp on co-ed sites?

As for non BM knocking down BW doors, well how many men are really knocking down ANY woman's doors? Of those, how many are men that are "knocking down some woman's door" are men that a sane woman would want? Why are there so many books and stuff aimed at non BW on how to attract, keep, fix, change, etc a mate....if finding a mate was SO easy for non BW? Perhaps there's an entitlement thing going on here w/ some of these women....too many seem to feel entitled to a good mate, but on a personal level...what vibes are they sending out? If you're all negative, all the time...why would anyone want you whatever your race or gender?

I completely agree with all of this!!!! I'm seriously stunned when I hear beautiful, accomplished, successful, spiritual women go on and on about how "we" as black women are at the bottom of the totem pole.

And I'm like, really? You accept that for yourself... shoot, I'm at the bottom of NO totem pole, and I'm a black woman... so you can keep that "we" mess, for real.

The other thing I'm seeing more frequently now that I didn't before is the statement of "I don't see non-black men beating down black women's doors" or "there aren't that many interested non-black men to make this an option for black women." And I'm thinking again, geez women, are you all ALWAYS trying to find the most negative answer to everything?

Even if one man is interested, you have an option. Any man who is interested is an option for a black woman. Black women had a massive national pity party over that OKCupid article and it was really pitiful... seriously, take men of any race out of the picture for the moment... WE need a massive self-esteem injection for real.

Hi, I'm gonna need for y'all to STOP MAKING SENSE!!!

Thank you, and um....carry on

 

[jamaraa]

NaturalDetroit These darned internetz! Well at least we got one group of folks we can stop comparing outselves to...negatively! Now it's time to knock down the rest!

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

I think the reasons why these articles come up is because

1- How many Black men are complaining about the lack of available quality Black women? I think they just move on to the next one and don't worry about the color

2- Many of us like reading these articles, even if all we want to do is complain that the burden is on us.

3- These reasons don't apply to every Black woman but they apply to enough that some of this seems to be the "truth" for some people.

My whole viewpoint is... if you carry yourself as an exceptional woman, despite what is said about you, you will prove yourself to be the exception to these rants and raves. I am an example of this. There are beautiful, slimmer, lighter, darker, healthier and prettier women with more to bring to the table (and this keeps in mind that perception is the true judge of this).... and I am happily married. So are several members here. It's only the TRUTH for you if you WANT it to be the truth for you. These articles create the women who feed into these stereotypes.

 

[Galadriel]

I don't think anyone said women should grab a husband ASAP and aspire to nothing else. The sentiment is that if you *want* to be married and *want* to start a family, that you don't have to wait until you're in your 30's or the head of the company to do so. You and your spouse can build your lives and your successes together. This is part of partnership, which I think is important in marriage.

To automatically start off thinking you need to prepare for divorce or an exit plan only testifies to the disconnect and miscommunication plaguing men and women in the relationship arena. And of course I'm not saying one should have the mindset "Oh, this will NEVER happen to me," b/c whether it's divorce or becoming a widow, etc. who knows what the future holds?

If I had to look back on my marriage so far and identify what's helping it remain strong and successful, the most important things are:

1. We both have an equal commitment, desire, and obligation to our marriage and understand ourselves to be partners and each other's support system on this journey.

2. We share the same values, though our points of view may not be identical.

3. We had a courtship, not just dating, and went through pre-marital counseling before walking down the aisle.

4. Communication and Compassion.

5. "Date Nights"

Nobody says it CAN'T be done, but that it's rather UNLIKELY to be done. LOL...I recall you from that feminist thread.

Again, I'm glad it worked out for you and I hope it CONTINUES to work out for you. I'm just saying that no woman should be remiss to allow her future to be solely in the hands of any man.

After all, I doubt BW in general are NOT open to the MRS degree, however many simply are NOT having it come their way. Methinks you'd see more of it if those oppotunities came the way of BW on campuses. It's clear those opportunities are few and far between or we'd not be having this convo!

 

[JustKiya]

tomatoes

I'm too through you found a picture and all.

 

[Bunny77]

Why not? Blacks are NOT Jews and have different issues than they do. What's wrong w/ pointing that out? Jews have an incentive towards indogomous marriage that Blacks lack....they believe that religion/Jewish "peoplehood" is passed on from mother to children.

How is it unfair to state that?

Since many AAs fully believe in the "one drop rule" they buy into the idea that Blackness is inherited from either parent, be they intraracially or interracially paired. It's apples and oranges really.

This is a good point.

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

No offense taken.

I think what SummerRain posted about her 6'5", dark-skinned friend feeling like he had to play a role to fit in with white folks in corporate America is probably a good example of something that is a legitimate concern that only a black man (and not a black woman) would face... the whole idea of the big scary black man might be more difficult to overcome than the stereotype of "Shaniqua" with seven kids... the white workers at Goldman Sachs would obviously be able to figure out quickly that a black woman working there is not "Shaniqua," but even if they know that the guy is not "Pookie," they might have a subconscious, visceral reaction to a big dark scary black man.

Kinda true. BUT black woman have to play the game as well because we (as all individual blacks) are "representing an entire race of people" and we cant be upset or even express how we really feel about certain situations because we will automatically be seen as the ABW. Also, dont have child care issues or wear your hair a certain way or have interest and mannerisms that are not considered mainstream. We most certainly have to change up some things. ESPECIALLY if you are a higher up. Black women dont usually go to work blabbing all our business, and that can make us seem unfriendly and cold so we have to make up stuff or try to make ourselves more friendly for them. You know, most of us can go to work and not say a word and be ok about it, we dont have to be mad just focused on other things but it wont be seen as that. Lets keep it all the way treal.

 

[Carrie A]

Matter of fact I'm going to bump that thread now

Sigh very well. But I do think there is a disconnect in general between the sexes across race and cultures at least in the US. It's just magnified so much more in our community. Being a 30 something single you tend to gravitate and socialize with other singles and I'm starting to hear the same sentiments from women and men of other races. It doesn't exactly feel good though. On New Years Eve I'm sitting across from and petite Asian chick and a tall blond chick and I'm hearing complaints about not being able to find a decent guy and vice versa............

 

[JustKiya]

Sigh very well. But I do think there is a disconnect in general between the sexes across race and cultures at least in the US. It's just magnified so much more in our community. Being a 30 something single you tend to gravitate and socialize with other singles and I'm starting to hear the same sentiments from women and men of other races. It doesn't exactly feel good though. On New Years Eve I'm sitting across from and petite Asian chick and a tall blond chick and I'm hearing complaints about not being able to find a decent guy and vice versa............

I agree with you, but I don't know how I feel about this sentiment - at least we ain't the only ones doing bad? Don't look to non-black men for husbands, either?

I mean, seriously, if things keep going like they are, in three generations marriage in America will be old school like beating your wife with a stick no bigger than your thumb.

 

[CenteredGirl]

This assumes that black women only want to marry black men. Looking around, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore (there are more interracial couples today in America then ever before), yet, single/unmarried sistas persist in a "larger dating pool". Perplexing.

 

[Bunny77]

Kinda true. BUT black woman have to play the game as well because we (as all individual blacks) are "representing an entire race of people" and we cant be upset or even express how we really feel about certain situations because we will automatically be seen as the ABW. Also, dont have child care issues or wear your hair a certain way or have interest and mannerisms that are not considered mainstream. We most certainly have to change up some things. ESPECIALLY if you are a higher up. Black women dont usually go to work blabbing all our business, and that can make us seem unfriendly and cold so we have to make up stuff or try to make ourselves more friendly for them. You know, most of us can go to work and not say a word and be ok about it, we dont have to be mad just focused on other things but it wont be seen as that. Lets keep it all the way treal.

Oh, I agree with you.

That's why my general point was that it's hard for me to buy into the "black men need to be understood," line when the same is not extended for black women. Yes, there are some issues that black men face that black women don't (like what I mentioned), but also some that black women face that black men don't... but black women don't always get that safe space at home to express that and have someone at home understanding US as well.

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

This assumes that black women only want to marry black men. Looking around, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore (there are more interracial couples today in America then ever before), yet, single/unmarried sistas persist in a "larger dating pool". Perplexing.

can you expand more on this please

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

Oh, I agree with you.

That's why my general point was that it's hard for me to buy into the "black men need to be understood," line when the same is not extended for black women. Yes, there are some issues that black men face that black women don't (like what I mentioned), but also some that black women face that black men don't... but black women don't always get that safe space at home to express that and have someone at home understanding US as well.

got it and i TA

 

[Bunny77]

This assumes that black women only want to marry black men. Looking around, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore (there are more interracial couples today in America then ever before), yet, single/unmarried sistas persist in a "larger dating pool". Perplexing.

But black women are the least likely (of women) to be married interracially. I think only 4% of black women are married IR.

While the idea is gaining more acceptance among black women, I believe that by and large, most black women DO only want to date black men.

 

[SleekandBouncy]

I agree with you, but I don't know how I feel about this sentiment - at least we ain't the only ones doing bad? Don't look to non-black men for husbands, either?

I mean, seriously, if things keep going like they are, in three generations marriage in America will be old school like beating your wife with a stick no bigger than your thumb.

I agree with Carrie. They are pushing this off as a Black woman problem, but people are not educated enough on the topic and quite often don't have a diverse enough circle of friends to see anything outside their experience. The solution is in properly understanding the problem.

And to be quite honest I don't foresee the institution of marriage being for Black OR White people being particularly strong in the future. I think it will become increasingly uncommon esp. with the children of this period. Many are the product of divorce and to them marriage is increasingly no big deal, something bound to end in failure or they lack the blue print necessary for successful marriages. Men and women are increasingly unable to relate to one another.

 

[jamaraa]

No offense taken.

I think what SummerRain posted about her 6'5", dark-skinned friend feeling like he had to play a role to fit in with white folks in corporate America is probably a good example of something that is a legitimate concern that only a black man (and not a black woman) would face... the whole idea of the big scary black man might be more difficult to overcome than the stereotype of "Shaniqua" with seven kids... the white workers at Goldman Sachs would obviously be able to figure out quickly that a black woman working there is not "Shaniqua," but even if they know that the guy is not "Pookie," they might have a subconscious, visceral reaction to a big dark scary black man.

If that was my man and he wanted to share that with me, I'd be more than willing to listen and attempt to understand.

However... I'm also speaking from the experience of the "arrogant" black men I met in college... since some seem to think that it's cool to say they're arrogant. One dude seemed to think he was so special -- and let black women know this frequently -- because he was in college and did a study abroad program. Now, he came from a not-so-great neighborhood and high school, so perhaps back home, this was a big deal.

So he came at me with that, and I said, "Well, so did I." (Study abroad, attended the same college, etc.). That pissed him off... he said he was used to black women oohing and aahing at the oh-so-rare black man in college... well I told him that he wasn't rare in my world, that my father went to college in the 1970s.

As I got older, I saw more of these types of black men who expected to be worshipped because they got a college degree -- that they were extra-special black men because they went to college, and that I needed to "understand" their struggles because they "overcame" so much to get to that point.

And I thought... uh, generations of black men have done the same before you were a fetus...

Anyway, I often take this, "You need to understand," statement as arrogance, myopia, complete focus on "ME ME ME," and a failure to look at the bigger picture of the quite-privileged place that many educated black men have compared to the past. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to relate or understand THESE types of black men.

I guess in those situations, there just will be no progress, because these particular types of black men don't seem all that interested in moving past their own issues for more realistic conversation to take place.

You hit the nail on the head here. This is a HUGE reason why so many educated BW are having problems finding "appropriate" BM to share their lives w/, if BM are their main concern. Too many folk act like some guy who managed to stay outta jail and keep a job is gold plated and deserves the best for that. Nevermind that his "search" for "the best" can involve all kinds of irresponsible actions. These OOW kids don't come from nowhere, after all!

This mentality has made "playing the field" go supernova in the BC. How many "wild oats" must a man sow before be becomes a man?

 

[JustKiya]

I agree with Carrie. They are pushing this off as a Black woman problem, but people are not educated enough on the topic and quite often don't have a diverse enough circle of friends to see anything outside their experience. The solution is in properly understanding the problem.

And to be quite honest I don't foresee the institution of marriage being for Black OR White people being particularly strong in the future. I think it will become increasingly uncommon esp. with the children of this period. Many are the product of divorce and to them marriage is increasingly no big deal, something bound to end in failure or they lack the blue print necessary for successful marriages. Men and women are increasingly unable to relate to one another.

Only the fundamentalists will still be getting married. That's actually scary on a couple of levels.

 

[LoveisYou]

With all the information out regarding "what men/women want", why is it so hard for us to relate to one another?

 

[jamaraa]

can you expand more on this please

BTW ND, I don't think I ever told you, but your hair is LURVELY!

I think she means that many BW who are single and frustrated simply will not consider a non BM...AT ALL. There are many reasons given by such a woman, but it boils down to her seeing her pool as limited because she ONLY wants a BM.

giggle: I may have totally misunderstood the poster in question, so keep that in mind )

 

[JustKiya]

With all the information out on regarding "what men/women want", why is it so hard for us to relate to one another?

Because we treat each other as a 'man' or as a 'woman' and not as an individual with either a penis or a vagina.

 

[LoveisYou]

No offense taken.

I think what SummerRain posted about her 6'5", dark-skinned friend feeling like he had to play a role to fit in with white folks in corporate America is probably a good example of something that is a legitimate concern that only a black man (and not a black woman) would face... the whole idea of the big scary black man might be more difficult to overcome than the stereotype of "Shaniqua" with seven kids... the white workers at Goldman Sachs would obviously be able to figure out quickly that a black woman working there is not "Shaniqua," but even if they know that the guy is not "Pookie," they might have a subconscious, visceral reaction to a big dark scary black man.

If that was my man and he wanted to share that with me, I'd be more than willing to listen and attempt to understand.

However... I'm also speaking from the experience of the "arrogant" black men I met in college... since some seem to think that it's cool to say they're arrogant. One dude seemed to think he was so special -- and let black women know this frequently -- because he was in college and did a study abroad program. Now, he came from a not-so-great neighborhood and high school, so perhaps back home, this was a big deal.

So he came at me with that, and I said, "Well, so did I." (Study abroad, attended the same college, etc.). That pissed him off... he said he was used to black women oohing and aahing at the oh-so-rare black man in college... well I told him that he wasn't rare in my world, that my father went to college in the 1970s.

As I got older, I saw more of these types of black men who expected to be worshipped because they got a college degree -- that they were extra-special black men because they went to college, and that I needed to "understand" their struggles because they "overcame" so much to get to that point.

And I thought... uh, generations of black men have done the same before you were a fetus...

Anyway, I often take this, "You need to understand," statement as arrogance, myopia, complete focus on "ME ME ME," and a failure to look at the bigger picture of the quite-privileged place that many educated black men have compared to the past. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to relate or understand THESE types of black men.

I guess in those situations, there just will be no progress, because these particular types of black men don't seem all that interested in moving past their own issues for more realistic conversation to take place.

These are the dudes that get the blank stare. I will commend a man for his accomplishments, but their will be no ohhing and aahing and self-detrimental compromising.

I think that the oohing and aahing they speak of is true. Black men in general aren't doing too well so the standards our community sets for them is pretty low. "You graduated from high school?, wow!"

Honestly, the possibly solutions for these dating woes baffles me. Are we suppose to change our behaviors or demand that they change theirs?

 

[PeanutButterandHoney]

IMO, the article seems to be coming from a prospective of Black Male Protectionalism, which , in essence, is the sole reason why the stats are where they are.
Black Male Protectionalism and all it's form creates this beast we are fighting.
It's cyclic and wont stop until we end protecting the Black male and he shows accountability for his actions (and lack there of)

 

[jamaraa]

It's only the TRUTH for you if you WANT it to be the truth for you. These articles create the women who feed into these stereotypes.

I don't think it's as simple as that. These articles are apart of a cycle....a psychological warfare, if you will. There are women who feel this way and state it often enough in real life/on the net/etc and the articles act as "covering a story" of some "phenomena" happening in our society. It's a cycle, a very destructive one, IMHO.

If anything "creates" women like this, it's people in their families and social circles, IMHO. That's where people get their primary ideas of their worth and potential. Real life is alot more influential than the media, but some people use the media/net/etc to "confirm" their real life experiences. Bad cycle.

 

[LoveisYou]

Because we treat each other as a 'man' or as a 'woman' and not as an individual with either a penis or a vagina.

JK this is a very profound statement, becuase I think it belies the notion that we should approach dating with a male/female guidebook in mind. Mind expounding?