Yes, It's Another 'single Black Woman' Thread.....

[Southern Belle]

Point 4 in particular is good. The BEST marital advice I ever received came from my dad. He said "give the man some PEACE. Don't be all over him like a cheap suit. When he comes home don't be all over him like 'blah, blah, blah....' Men don't wanna hear all that. Let him take his coat off and relax first."

He said black women in particular will argue you DOWN, and that it's okay to "stand down" sometimes, and "let him be the man". It never occured to me that this could be seen as "masculine behavior", but when I thought about it - it does have a ring of truth. This could possibly be why we aren't seen as "gentle, delicate, and feminine" like women of other races. We can't just let stuff go. We HAVE to have the last word - at all cost. Comedians even joke about it.

But his advice works well for me in life in general - not just in my marriage. I just try really hard not to "go there" with people, and be ig'nant. I'll shoot you a "have a nice day" QUICK - and keep it movin'.

If my husband does something I don't agree with (and it's mostly about the kids) I'll approach the subject gently and later on that night (not at the moment it's happening), and 99% of the time he says "okay I understand what you're saying." The gentle approach really IS better. White women have know this forever, though....

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

Well if you're not unhappy, cool. Lots of women are just like you and wonder at these "po me" articles.. I think this stuff is aimed at those BW who ARE NOT happy w/ their sitch and trying to give them some solutions. Those women are out there and they are LOUD about their unhappiness...sadly, it makes it seem as if ALL BW feel this way. They don't.

Of course, relationships or lack thereof involve men too. I'd love to see some articles aimed at why BM in particular are having trouble committing to ANYONE (regardless of race or even gender) and what solutions someone can come up w/.

IOW, I feel ya!

I'm sure alot of women are okay with being single and pursuing their goals until they are bombarded with these silly articles, and "helpful tips" then some may begin to wonder or think something is wrong with THEM when in reality there is nothing wrong with them at all. To tell a woman to not pursue a career to get a man is dangerous and flat out dumb.

For ex,the lady just got done saying that black men have a hard time in the career fields (those of us who study AA's have a more indepth view on this) and that there are a lot of factors within which limit the population of dateable black men. So you mean to tell me that I should stop MY life's building process, or dumb myself down all for the sake of getting a man? But didnt you just give me numbers and factors that told me the numbers are NOT in my favor anyway? So exactly who am I trying to get, please and keep inorder to keep me from being that horrible old maid?


@ the bolded, THAT would be interesting because I see alot of biege babies walking around with their white mother's and no man in sight which leaves me to believe Becky gets treated the same as Shanique

 

[Bunny77]

Other thoughts... I can see some wisdom in No. 2. While I never (in real life) was that big on going off on people, I was very much into the whole "strong, take no stuff BW" persona when I was younger, because I thought it was cool and uplifting. Eh, not so much.

No. 3 is fine, but I actually don't like when this one is used. There are women of all races who make the choice to be single, or who are lesbian and don't get counted in the marriage statistics. So, if we're going to say, "Don't count the black women happy to be single and the black lesbian women," then we have to do the same with women of other races. Once we account for all of them, guess what? More black women (who want to be married) are going to be single compared to the other groups.

No. 5: YES YES YES YES!!!!! I say this all the time, as you know. If you want marriage and family, don't wait around and one day wake up at 35 and go, "What happened???" Not that 35 = dead... I'm just saying that if you haven't done one thing by that age to move toward marriage and family (if that's your desire), then you listened to some bad advice.

No. 7: It depends. As you know, I'm very big on traditional dating and courtship, and I think those things will get a black woman the result that she wants. I guess I need to know more about what the author means... is he saying that BW have to be more aggressive to get a BM? Sorry, I don't buy that. More strategic, perhaps? Maybe. I'd need to know more about what he means on this one.

No real comment on the ones I didn't mention.

 

[JustKiya]

I was a minority women's meeting once and we had all sorts of speakers from business women, professors, politicians, etc, and I'll never forget this black girl stood up to ask a black lady politician "why" she thinks she was able to make it "since we are the bottom of the totem pole?" The women on the panel were shocked (there were women and men of all races in the conference hall) and I was shocked. I didn't know that mentality existed.
I've learned since coming to lhcf, in particular, that some of us just aren't going to make it because our priorities in life are 1)black men and 2)non-black women, of which we are neither.
To a lot of black women, there's no way anyone but the familiar black man could want us, and even then only if we can get as close to some non-black woman as possible. The truth is many black women are CONVINCED of their own inferiority to EVERYONE ELSE in society.



Thank you!



I read a study years ago on why black men dated/mated/married "out" so much more than black women. The researchers really couldn't make sense of it because black women actually interact with non-blacks (in the workplace, academia) at a much, much higher rate than black men.

Wow. That's deep - but true. And you know what? There is another blog that gets a lot of folks riled up called 'Black Women Blow The Trumpet' and one of the things she often talks about is the 'mule' mentality that black women have - that we have to take care of everyone else (without reciprocity!!!), and then, if we have a little time/energy/money left, we take care of ourselves.

I think that ties into what you are saying, here.

That study is interesting. Perception is power - if you percieve that those 'others' you are encountering could never want your 'bottom of the totem pole' self - you will be unable to see any efforts that they are making to 'get to know you'.

 

[Bunny77]

I agree with everything except for #2. Sorry but many white women I know are just as b*tchy and argumentative as black women, except they aren't burdened with the stereotype. One of my bf's is white, married to a white guy and she is very bossy and tells it like it is -all the time-. If she was black, she would definitely be labeled an angry black woman with the same attitude.

Good point.

Jewish women for example are KNOWN for being like this... heck, even Jewish women admit to it, but they are revered in their community. Jewish men don't see this as their "excuse" to get themselves a non-Jew.

 

[jamaraa]

Optimus that has been the most stunning thing to me as I'm reading thru various sites, esp the so called Black Women's Empowerment ones! I had no idea so many Black women really felt this way about themselves and other BW. I'm like

I don't know where they're getting this stuff from and why they actually internalize it. I wish there was some sort of study on this. I'm VERY curious about what's going on here. It seems there's psychological warfare on BW specifically these days. Some BW seem to take all the negativity onboard and others seem largely unaffected by it. I really wanna know the WHYS of these almost diametricially opposed reactions to this...any ideas?

Focusing on BM and non BW is a fool's errand, IMHO. Neither of them hold the key's to a BW getting the most out of her life. Frankly, BM and non BW seem to be overly empowered and given far too much consideration by too many BW. Who really cares what they do or think, when you get down to it? Why is the opinion of random strangers so important? I say, to them be their way and to me be mine!

 

[paulina_grop]

Is number 5 really a problem or a symptom?

 

[Detroit2Dallas]

Wow. That's deep - but true. And you know what? There is another blog that gets a lot of folks riled up called 'Black Women Blow The Trumpet' and one of the things she often talks about is the 'mule' mentality that black women have - that we have to take care of everyone else (without reciprocity!!!), and then, if we have a little time/energy/money left, we take care of ourselves.

I think that ties into what you are saying, here.

That study is interesting. Perception is power - if you percieve that those 'others' you are encountering could never want your 'bottom of the totem pole' self - you will be unable to see any efforts that they are making to 'get to know you'.

Is that not what this article, and similar articles, discussions and experts doing?

 

[MD_Lady]

I think #8 should be "Black Women Can't Achieve a Healthy Relationship By Themselves". There's nothing wrong with realizing that men don't really want what you think they want (and yes, the same can CERTAINLY be said about how men view women), but tailoring yourself to be more appealing to men is only half of the equation-- he also has to be appealing to you. Again, there's nothing wrong with making positive changes, but if a woman makes major changes to who she is, not only may she be resentful of "having" to do so, the men she attracts might not be the best matches for (the real) her.

 

[LoveisYou]

Yeah, see I could NEVER get down with #6.

Why? Ironically (or maybe not so much), it's because I grew up with a black man in my home (my dad) and he never got down like that.

Oh he could have though... my dad lived through real-life Jim Crow and he certainly had things to say about racism, the poor treatment of black folks, Republicans , etc., but he NEVER made it personal, like, "This happened to me because I'm a black man and I couldn't achieve this because I was a black man and it's hard out here for a black man..."

So, the idea that I'm somehow supposed to relate "differently" to a black boyfriend/husband because of his "struggle" just does. not. compute. to me. That I have to do XYZ to have a successful relationship in general (okay fine), but I have to add special elements to "understand" him as a black man... sorry, but no.

If my dad could go through basic training in the segregated South, work his way through college over the course of 10 years, eventually get a bachelor's and master's degree in the 1970s, then I don't want to hear boo from any black men today about how hard it is, considering that black folks in the 2000s are the most privileged black people in American history.

Bunny your father is admirable, but a lot of black men just aren't in that place. Racism does have a negative effect on black people, and some people are more sensitive to those effects than others.

I read #6 to mean that a black man should not have to come home and deal with some of the things he must face, simply because he's black, in the outside world. For example, the outside world may challenge and question his masculinity; therefore, home should be a form of refuge from those challenges.

 

[JustKiya]

I did a quick google-fuu on 'black men marriage' and here are a couple of interesting links - I'm only going to pull what I consider to be 'highlights' out.

Marriage is for White People

That's what one of my students told me some years back when I taught a career exploration class for sixth-graders at an elementary school in Southeast Washington. I was pleasantly surprised when the boys in the class stated that being a good father was a very important goal to them, more meaningful than making money or having a fancy title.

"That's wonderful!" I told my class. "I think I'll invite some couples in to talk about being married and rearing children."

"Oh, no," objected one student. "We're not interested in the part about marriage. Only about how to be good fathers."

And that's when the other boy chimed in, speaking as if the words left a nasty taste in his mouth: "Marriage is for white people."
-------
I was stunned to learn that a black child was more likely to grow up living with both parents during slavery days than he or she is today, according to sociologist Andrew J. Cherlin.
-------
Moreover, in an era of brothers on the "down low," the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and the decline of the stable blue-collar jobs that black men used to hold, linking one's fate to a man makes marriage a risky business for a black woman.
"A woman who takes that step is bold and brave," one young single mother told me. "Women don't want to marry because they don't want to lose their freedom."
-------
And here's the new twist. African American women aren't the only ones deciding that they can make do alone. Often what happens in black America is a sign of what the rest of America can eventually expect. In his 2003 book, "Mismatch: The Growing Gulf between Women and Men," Andrew Hacker noted that the structure of white families is evolving in the direction of that of black families of the 1960s. In 1960, 67 percent of black families were headed by a husband and wife, compared to 90.9 percent for whites. By 2000, the figure for white families had dropped to 79.8 percent. Births to unwed white mothers were 22.5 percent in 2001, compared to 2.3 percent in 1960. So my student who thought marriage is for white people may have to rethink that in the future.

Why Are Black Men Avoiding Marriage?

Davison says that one of the reasons why he feels black men don't marry is because most have grown up in single parent or illegitimate homes. Most have never seen a good marriage first hand leaving no desire for marriage. Marriage for most of today's men is nowhere on the list of life's priorities.
-------
Men have a fear of losing sexual excitement, thinking the more the merrier; they fear that one woman can't satisfy.

African American Men and Their Fear of Marriage

Instead of giving you the dramatically low statistical percentage of the number of African-American women unmarried versus women of other ethnicities, I decided to give you a more realistic view on why there is more babies’ mama’s and single women than there are wives in the black communities. Aside from societal factors, it’s obvious our brothers are dealing with commitment issues. Primarily, those commitment issues stem from not wanting to give up the millions of other beautiful women in the world. The other part is the fear that marriage will require many changes and compromises. Most men believe that the more serious a relationship is, the more expectations there are. Therefore to prevent failing at the high expectations he opts to not commit at all. In an effort to aid my sisters in this non-committing crisis, I talked to five single men ages 25 to 40 and asked them the real deal about their thoughts and fears of marriage. Here is what I concluded….

Husband? How? – The majority of our black men have been raised in single parent homes with their mothers or grandmothers being both mom and dad. The role of a husband is foreign to them and may even seem unnecessary. Again the fear of playing a role that was never demonstrated can make him shy away from the responsibility all together.

The Half Syndrome – Kanye said it best when he talked about gold diggers and giving up half. With lyrics like this, brothers especially fear having a relationship that will destroy them financially. The idea of possibly having to give up half of their money or livelihood if the relationship fails can prevent them from legally committing to anyone.

Marrying Ms. Wrong – Men are afraid of marrying the wrong woman. They want to marry Ms. Perfect and are scared that they will make the wrong choice. A few of the brothers admitted that they fear that Ms. Right Now will turn into Ms. All Wrong after they say I do. Hence preventing them from jumping the broom until they are absolutely sure or figure out what the sure feeling will feel like.

Changing the Cohabitation – With many couples opting to live together before getting married, cohabitation has become more acceptable and convenient for many in this generation. However our men are often times spoiled by this arrangement and feel changing it by adding a “piece of paper” will destroy it.

Distrust – Just like a scorned woman, men have trust issues as well. It was revealed to me that oftentimes a man does not trust a woman enough to marry her. Mainly because he does not trust himself or he has been hurt in the past and fears going through the pain again.

Strong black women – I know us sisters are doing it for ourselves but at the same time our men are having a hard time finding their place in our lives. Brothers have repeatedly commented on how the sisters are not letting them be a “man”. Although this is not so much a fear it is claimed to be a reason why our men are not popping the question as often as we would like.

Money – Contrary to the half-syndrome, men often fear the thought of not being able to provide as a husband should. As a result they decide to wait until they are much older and financially stabile to marry and begin a family to avoid the feeling of not being a provider.

BeBe’s Kids - As hypocritical as it may be, men fear marrying a woman with children. Even though they may have a child, a ready made family to them usually means taking on a financial role and responsibility that he did not create. Many brothers also fear backlash from their family and friends for “taking in the next man’s baby mama”.

As enlightening as it was to hear a man’s perspective on the reasons why they can’t or won’t commit, these are by no means acceptable excuses. I know these fears don’t reflect how all brothers feel but one brother is too many. Let’s stop making and accepting excuses, and start giving each other what we deserve -Black love. Black love exists and it should be celebrated through marriage and commitment without fear. Ironically, as I’m finishing up this last paragraph Something New starring Sanaa Lathan begins and I was reminded that 42.4% of black women are not married. I know I said I wasn’t going to give you statistical percentages…but damn!

And those were from just the first half of the google page.

 

[jamaraa]

I'm sure alot of women are okay with being single and pursuing their goals until they are bombarded with these silly articles, and "helpful tips" then some may begin to wonder or think something is wrong with THEM when in reality there is nothing wrong with them at all. To tell a woman to not pursue a career to get a man is dangerous and flat out dumb.

For ex,the lady just got done saying that black men have a hard time in the career fields (those of us who study AA's have a more indepth view on this) and that there are a lot of factors within which limit the population of dateable black men. So you mean to tell me that I should stop MY life's building process, or dumb myself down all for the sake of getting a man? But didnt you just give me numbers and factors that told me the numbers are NOT in my favor anyway? So exactly who am I trying to get, please and keep inorder to keep me from being that horrible old maid?


@ the bolded, THAT would be interesting because I see alot of biege babies walking around with their white mother's and no man in sight which leaves me to believe Becky gets treated the same as Shanique

I'm w/ ya. LOL...these articles get on my nerves because I view them as apart of a psychological warfare against BW w/ their sexist assumptions, but on the other hand...I've seen BW all over the net doing the "po me" boogie which really drives me nuts! Sometimes I come on a topic like this to try and stop some of the damage. After all, the more someone hears something negative w/o any rebuttal/alternative takes/refutations, the more likely they are to believe it hook, line, and sinker. I try to rebut even if I agree w/ some points because of the underlying assumptions of the writers themselves! Of course, you saw where I stand on #5....that one needed SERIOUS rebutall, IMHO.

You're quite right about you last bit. The question that SHOULD be asked is "how come so few Black men are willing to behave responsibility wrt BW and non BW"? For some reason (wonder why ), these "lonely BW" articles rarely point out that BM aren't doing so hot w/ non BW as well. IOW, maybe it's NOT an issue of BW being failures...if it were, BM would be thriving w/ non BW. They aren't.

 

[Bunny77]

I was a minority women's meeting once and we had all sorts of speakers from business women, professors, politicians, etc, and I'll never forget this black girl stood up to ask a black lady politician "why" she thinks she was able to make it "since we are the bottom of the totem pole?" The women on the panel were shocked (there were women and men of all races in the conference hall) and I was shocked. I didn't know that mentality existed.
I've learned since coming to lhcf, in particular, that some of us just aren't going to make it because our priorities in life are 1)black men and 2)non-black women, of which we are neither.
To a lot of black women, there's no way anyone but the familiar black man could want us, and even then only if we can get as close to some non-black woman as possible. The truth is many black women are CONVINCED of their own inferiority to EVERYONE ELSE in society.

I completely agree with all of this!!!! I'm seriously stunned when I hear beautiful, accomplished, successful, spiritual women go on and on about how "we" as black women are at the bottom of the totem pole.

And I'm like, really? You accept that for yourself... shoot, I'm at the bottom of NO totem pole, and I'm a black woman... so you can keep that "we" mess, for real.

The other thing I'm seeing more frequently now that I didn't before is the statement of "I don't see non-black men beating down black women's doors" or "there aren't that many interested non-black men to make this an option for black women." And I'm thinking again, geez women, are you all ALWAYS trying to find the most negative answer to everything?

Even if one man is interested, you have an option. Any man who is interested is an option for a black woman. Black women had a massive national pity party over that OKCupid article and it was really pitiful... seriously, take men of any race out of the picture for the moment... WE need a massive self-esteem injection for real.

 

[JustKiya]

Is that not what this article, and similar articles, discussions and experts doing?

I don't think so, because the difference is reciprocity. We want men who can stand beside us, with our degrees and houses and finances - not men that we have to lift up and carry. The problem is - those men - are hard to find as a virgin in a whorehouse.

And I think that if a woman wants to get married, figuring out how to, and learning tips & tricks that will increase her chances - are a fabulous way of taking care of self.

 

[UmSumayyah]

Thoughts? Tomatoes?

Bunny, Dlewis, and Zaynab said all that already.

 

[jamaraa]

Good point.

Jewish women for example are KNOWN for being like this... heck, even Jewish women admit to it, but they are revered in their community. Jewish men don't see this as their "excuse" to get themselves a non-Jew.

In my observations of Jewish people, I'm not so sure this is true. Henny Youngman made a fortune off of "take my wife, please". Since Jewish men are the largest group of people going outside of their communities for dating/marriage (ie +50%), I'm not so sure they have a positive view of Jewish women (ie the Yenta stereotype) as marriage partners or as parents.

Of course, maybe Black folks don't pick up on this because it's isn't as blatant as what goes on in our communities. Every culture has it's ways, issues, and nuances, so many Black folks can just be missing other folks' cultural cues. Of course, there aren't many Jewish men dressing up like the Yenta stereotype in film after film. They don't have their Tyler Perrys, DL Hugelys, Chris Rocks etc...being so unavoidably blantant in their negative attitudes towards Jewish women.

 

[Bunny77]

Bunny your father is admirable, but a lot of black men just aren't in that place. Racism does have a negative effect on black people, and some people are more sensitive to those effects than others.

I read #6 to mean that a black man should not have to come home and deal with some of the things he must face, simply because he's black, in the outside world. For example, the outside world may challenge and question his masculinity; therefore, home should be a form of refuge from those challenges.

Regarding the first question... but what happened? I think a lot of men of my father's generation (he's 66) are like him. So why are the educated 20-something black men who actually have never lived through Jim Crow, never had to worry about the Draft, never been flat-out legally denied access to things because they were black "not in that place?"

And why do black women seem to be able to overcome the effects of racism AND sexism a little better, including the sexism directed at them by their own men?

P.S. on that... I think my brother, who is in his mid-20s, has adapted my father's mindset. I've had some discussions with him about this to see if I'm missing anything -- since I'm not a black man -- and he is the same way. Probably because my dad never made it an "excuse" in our home.

Now, I agree that the home should be a refuge from the troubles of the outside world... but if black men want black women to understand this, black men also need to be more understanding of the sexism that black women face as well. It's not like black men are the only ones out here feeling the effects of the outside world.

 

[JustKiya]

Bunny, Dlewis, and Zaynab said all that already.

But not all in the same post/thread!

 

[JustKiya]

Regarding the first question... but what happened? I think a lot of men of my father's generation (he's 66) are like him. So why are the educated 20-something black who actually have never lived through Jim Crow, never worried about Draft, never been flat-out legally denied access to things because they were black "not in that place?"

And why do black women seem to be able to overcome the effects of racism AND sexism a little better, including the sexism directed at them by their own men?

P.S. on that... I think my brother, who is in his mid-20s, has adapted my father's mindset. I've had some discussions with him about this to see if I'm missing anything -- since I'm not a black man -- and he is the same way. Probably because my dad never made it an "excuse" in our home.

Now, I agree that the home should be a refuge from the troubles of the outside world... but if black men want black women to understand this, black men also need to be more understanding of the sexism that black women face as well. It's not like black men are the only ones out here feeling the effects of the outside world.

Noooooooooo!! Because if you start talking about sexism towards black women, you usually slide into talking about feminism, and I'm starting to suspect being a feminist is damn near akin to being homosexual in some black folks minds.

All black women have to worry about is racism!!

 

[Galadriel]

I think you can snag an MRS and a career at the same time. I met my husband when I was 22 and married at 24. I'm not 30 yet and I have a career, a graduate education, marriage and children. It CAN be done

The so called MRS degree is a thing of the past mostly. Relatively few men or women are marrying or even considering marrying while they're still in college, at least undergrad (which is what the MRS degree was about).

My point is, women are far more likely to find themselves in middle age alone and raising children....MRS degree or not because divorce is a major factor. Just getting married doesn't mean you'll STAY married, so you'd better be prepared to take care of yourself and your children ALONE if you choose this route. Women run a risk either way, but the MRS degree simply doesn't have the security it once represented.

The overall stats that I've seen shows that people by and large (all races) are marrying later, having fewer kids, and that the financial issues that come w/ college education are a factor (too much debt) in the late marriage rates, so looking to the past for a solution today really isn't useful, IMHO. LOL...I think the MRS degree as a focus for BW goes to her #6 point.

 

[Rastafarai]

I don't think so, because the difference is reciprocity. We want men who can stand beside us, with our degrees and houses and finances - not men that we have to lift up and carry. The problem is - those men - are hard to find as a virgin in a whorehouse.

But isn't lifting and understanding our black men something the author says we as black women need to work on? That somehow his struggle is so insurmountable that we need to be more accomodating to this fact?

Are black men lifting us up? Are they besides us? Are they understanding our struggle to raise single-parent homes, take care of ailing parents and still find time to advance ourselves? Are there articles written for black men by black men on what they can do to improve this circumstance??

As with most articles, its lopsided. The do's and dont's, the statistics, analyses, comparisons and deductions all focus on the black woman.

It just ain't right.

 

[JFemme]

WE need a massive self-esteem injection for real.

Like for real !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bunny77]

In my observations of Jewish people, I'm not so sure this is true. Henny Youngman made a fortune off of "take my wife, please". Since Jewish men are the largest group of people going outside of their communities for dating/marriage (ie +50%), I'm not so sure they have a positive view of Jewish women (ie the Yenta stereotype) as marriage partners or as parents.

Of course, maybe Black folks don't pick up on this because it's isn't as blatant as what goes on in our communities. Every culture has it's ways, issues, and nuances, so many Black folks can just be missing other folks' cultural cues. Of course, there aren't many Jewish men dressing up like the Yenta stereotype in film after film. They don't have their Tyler Perrys, DL Hugelys, Chris Rocks etc...being so unavoidably blantant in their negative attitudes towards Jewish women.

Well, I do hear jokes/criticism on both sides, but I also hear the comments, "nice Jewish girl," or "nice Jewish boy" very often when single Jews are talking about the types of people they want to marry. Or the fact they created JDate so they could find each other. Or some dude I read about in Alaska who moved to NYC because he said there were no Jewish women in Alaska and he wanted to find a Jewish partner.

I agree that not being an insider, I could be missing a few things, but thinking of the Jews I'm close to and grew up with, the idea seemed to be that even though each gender had its flaws (men = neurotic, women = *****y), they accepted that was just part of the package involved with being Jewish.

I also think that Jewish people period are really marrying out these days. My female friend married a Catholic guy, so I don't think the intermarriage thing is limited to Jewish men. I never get the impression though that their intermarriage habits are because they don't feel that the Jewish person of the opposite gender is unfit to be a good wife/husband/mother/father.

 

[JustKiya]

But isn't lifting and understanding our black men something the author says we as black women need to work on? That somehow his struggle is so insurmountable that we need to be more accomodating to this fact?

Are black men lifting us up? Are they besides us? Are they understanding our struggle to raise single-parent homes, take care of ailing parents and still find time to advance ourselves? Are there articles written for black men by black men on what they can do to improve this circumstance??

As with most articles, its lopsided. The do's and dont's, the statistics, analyses, comparisons and deductions all focus on the black woman.

It just ain't right.

They aren't. And honestly, you know what? I think a whole lot of them just don't give a phuck. *sigh* I don't think they want to get married. I don't think they care about the 'plight' of the 'over-worked' black woman. I really don't. But black women still want to believe that they do - because otherwise, we have to give up on them, too, and we - as a community - haven't gotten there yet.

Personally? This is just me speaking, but if I was single and trying to get married right now, I wouldn't even bother trying with black men. If I stumbled across one, well and good - but I wouldn't be looking for him.

I'd be looking for a man from a culture that still values marriage and the family. And that's real talk.

 

[jamaraa]

I completely agree with all of this!!!! I'm seriously stunned when I hear beautiful, accomplished, successful, spiritual women go on and on about how "we" as black women are at the bottom of the totem pole.

And I'm like, really? You accept that for yourself... shoot, I'm at the bottom of NO totem pole, and I'm a black woman... so you can keep that "we" mess, for real.

The other thing I'm seeing more frequently now that I didn't before is the statement of "I don't see non-black men beating down black women's doors" or "there aren't that many interested non-black men to make this an option for black women." And I'm thinking again, geez women, are you all ALWAYS trying to find the most negative answer to everything?

Even if one man is interested, you have an option. Any man who is interested is an option for a black woman. Black women had a massive national pity party over that OKCupid article and it was really pitiful... seriously, take men of any race out of the picture for the moment... WE need a massive self-esteem injection for real.

I've always wondered where this "totem pole" was, tbh. If BW are supposed to be at the bottom of it, why are so many NON BW so insecure about THEIR looks and so on? Much of this is fhe "beauty industry" selling unrealistic "aspirational lifestyles" to folks. There's tons of money to be made off insecurity.

However, the negativity you note is extreme and incredibly sad. It's almost as if some BW simply can't envision happiness for themselves and other BW simply because we are BW. erplexed This I find offenseive and pathetic....I simply don't know where it's coming from. Is it the church culture, specific BM saying hurtful things, the drama that takes place on he web, esp on co-ed sites?

As for non BM knocking down BW doors, well how many men are really knocking down ANY woman's doors? Of those, how many are men that are "knocking down some woman's door" are men that a sane woman would want? Why are there so many books and stuff aimed at non BW on how to attract, keep, fix, change, etc a mate....if finding a mate was SO easy for non BW? Perhaps there's an entitlement thing going on here w/ some of these women....too many seem to feel entitled to a good mate, but on a personal level...what vibes are they sending out? If you're all negative, all the time...why would anyone want you whatever your race or gender?

 

[LoveisYou]

Regarding the first question... but what happened? I think a lot of men of my father's generation (he's 66) are like him. So why are the educated 20-something black who actually have never lived through Jim Crow, never worried about Draft, never been flat-out legally denied access to things because they were black "not in that place?"

And why do black women seem to be able to overcome the effects of racism AND sexism a little better, including the sexism directed at them by their own men?

P.S. on that... I think my brother, who is in his mid-20s, has adapted my father's mindset. I've had some discussions with him about this to see if I'm missing anything -- since I'm not a black man -- and he is the same way. Probably because my dad never made it an "excuse" in our home.

Now, I agree that the home should be a refuge from the troubles of the outside world... but if black men want black women to understand this, black men also need to be more understanding of the sexism that black women face as well. It's not like black men are the only ones out here feeling the effects of the outside world.

I do understand that we experience the double jeopardy as black women; however I notice that many of these discussions (not aimed at you Bunny) seem to turn into "us v. them." If we can (black women) why can't they (black men)?

But how are we going to change anything if we don't first seek to understand before being understood? How are we really going to thoroughly analyze any issue if we drop the ball at "us v. them."

The thing is, we are different. Our experiences as black women are different than their experiences as black men in many ways.

I don't want to ignore our problems or make excuses for black men, but I do see the benefit in having a discussion that isn't the typical comparison between black men and black women, a comparison that seems to pit us against eachother.

 

[jamaraa]

I think you can snag an MRS and a career at the same time. I met my husband when I was 22 and married at 24. I'm not 30 yet and I have a career, a graduate education, marriage and children. It CAN be done

Nobody says it CAN'T be done, but that it's rather UNLIKELY to be done. LOL...I recall you from that feminist thread.

Again, I'm glad it worked out for you and I hope it CONTINUES to work out for you. I'm just saying that no woman should be remiss to allow her future to be solely in the hands of any man.

After all, I doubt BW in general are NOT open to the MRS degree, however many simply are NOT having it come their way. Methinks you'd see more of it if those oppotunities came the way of BW on campuses. It's clear those opportunities are few and far between or we'd not be having this convo!

 

[MD_Lady]

I did a quick google-fuu on 'black men marriage' and here are a couple of interesting links - I'm only going to pull what I consider to be 'highlights' out....

Kiya is on FIYA!!! I remember reading Marriage is for White People when the WP first ran it. I checked it out again and posted a passage that I missed the first time and think is very interesting:

...Most single black women over the age of 30 whom I know would not mind getting married, but acknowledge that the kind of man and the quality of marriage they would like to have may not be likely, and they are not desperate enough to simply accept any situation just to have a man. A number of my married friends complain that taking care of their husbands feels like having an additional child to raise. Then there's the fact that marriage apparently can be hazardous to the health of black women. A recent study by the Institute for American Values, a nonpartisan think tank in New York City, indicates that married African American women are less healthy than their single sisters...

There are three sides to this story (DW's, DH's, and the truth) but considering all of the "tips" BW are given on attracting and keeping men, the bolded caught my attention. Being the type of woman a (good) man wants to marry is great, but so is having the type of man you'd like being married to. People have a right to change (or not to change) whatever they want about themselves, but before they do, they should ask themselves 1) can I keep this up and 2) am I achieving all of my desired results.

 

[Bunny77]

I've always wondered where this "totem pole" was, tbh. If BW are supposed to be at the bottom of it, why are so many NON BW so insecure about THEIR looks and so on? Much of this is fhe "beauty industry" selling unrealistic "aspirational lifestyles" to folks. There's tons of money to be made off insecurity.

However, the negativity you note is extreme and incredibly sad. It's almost as if some BW simply can't envision happiness for themselves and other BW simply because we are BW. erplexed This I find offenseive and pathetic....I simply don't know where it's coming from. Is it the church culture, specific BM saying hurtful things, the drama that takes place on he web, esp on co-ed sites?

As for non BM knocking down BW doors, well how many men are really knocking down ANY woman's doors? Of those, how many are men that are "knocking down some woman's door" are men that a sane woman would want? Why are there so many books and stuff aimed at non BW on how to attract, keep, fix, change, etc a mate....if finding a mate was SO easy for non BW? Perhaps there's an entitlement thing going on here w/ some of these women....too many seem to feel entitled to a good mate, but on a personal level...what vibes are they sending out? If you're all negative, all the time...why would anyone want you whatever your race or gender?

Exactly! I mean, according to all these books, articles and Nightline specials, NO men of any race are knocking down these women's doors , so why then if someone simply brings up non-black men as a possible option, said black women will then say, "Well, how many of them are interested enough in black women for this to be an option?"

Seriously? I didn't know you needed 100 Chinese men (for example) to ask for your number to then decide that Chinese men are worth dating. And going back to black men, since that's what most black women want, are black men no longer an option if you only go on say, ONE date a year with a black man? Black men aren't beating on your door, so going by this false logic, black men aren't an option for black women.

None of it makes any sense. It's not really that complicated. Think highly of yourself (and not in an arrogant way), create legitimate standards as to the type of mate you want, and choose from the men of that caliber that show interest.

Your options are as broad or as limited as you let them be.

 

[jamaraa]

Well, I do hear jokes/criticism on both sides, but I also hear the comments, "nice Jewish girl," or "nice Jewish boy" very often when single Jews are talking about the types of people they want to marry. Or the fact they created JDate so they could find each other. Or some dude I read about in Alaska who moved to NYC because he said there were no Jewish women in Alaska and he wanted to find a Jewish partner.

I agree that not being an insider, I could be missing a few things, but thinking of the Jews I'm close to and grew up with, the idea seemed to be that even though each gender had its flaws (men = neurotic, women = *****y), they accepted that was just part of the package involved with being Jewish.

I also think that Jewish people period are really marrying out these days. My female friend married a Catholic guy, so I don't think the intermarriage thing is limited to Jewish men. I never get the impression though that their intermarriage habits are because they don't feel that the Jewish person of the opposite gender is unfit to be a good wife/husband/mother/father.

With Jews, it very much depends on how religious the person is in terms of seeking a partner. Since Askhanziam feel that religious inheritance is passed the the matrilinal line, Jewish women are always in the game!

Blacks really have nothing like this factor to consider really, after all Blackness isn't passed on in a gendered way (unlike Judiasm), so it's really rather a non issue when it comes to how BW-BM interrate, IMHO.