Is Marriage for White People? by Ralph Richard Banks

[greight]

Now the whole date out or marry out thing always has me scratching my head cause sometimes I think people make these statements without really taking things into consideration like geographic area, gender specific racism and whether or not they approve of black women. So you have thousands of black women who will date white or Asian men but do these men feel the same about black women? Most likely not. Also keep in mind dating and marriage are two different things. I've dated Asian men who said they would date black women but not marry them. WHAT! So I'm good enough to sleep with but not good enough to be your wife!!

The topic is interesting but very complex!

Banks makes two points about interracial dating in that he says that this generation (18 - 34 demo) is more prone to accepting interracial dating than generations passed. His thesis more or less centers on the fact that it'll be more accepted as the years go on.

In regards to the bolded, I think that while we are trying our best to not generalize black men as "no good" we shouldn't generalize non-black men as "not interested." We will come across some frogs who will date, not marry. But we have some black men who drag black women through the mud, too.

Personally, my question is that BW do not date outside the race compared to other groups, period. Similar situation with Asian men. We can argue whether it is truly 9% (compared to 48 - 49% of non-black women) or not, but at the end of the day, why is this the case when BM aren't at the same level as we are? If that makes sense...

At the end of the day, I feel like BW are being socialized not to date outside of the race if I simply look at it strictly numbers. That might make this thread explode (or not), but if we are mixing with other races (via college/career/etc) at higher rates than BM based off of sheer numbers (in some cases 2:1), then this is striking to me.

I don't think it's because men don't find us attractive, but because we just simply prefer not to date outside of BM.

Disclaimer: I love BM, I am currently dating one, and prefer to marry one.

 

[greight]

He seems like a really nice man. It's so unfortunate that he's getting so much criticism right now.

For real!

Ironically, he said that he's getting a LOT of criticism from BM .

He is raising SONS, ya'll! And he's a man. He's not saying that BM are no good. He's just saying that BW are outpacing BM 2:1 in education, career, salary, etc.

This book looks like it's all about the numbers. Common sense is that BM need to get their ish together so that the numbers become more even OR if a BW want to get married, she should consider expanding her options.

Most relationship books out there advocate dating multiple people at the same time due to the fact that the more people you date/interact, the more likely you can find someone you are potentially compatible with. What those compatibility factors are will vary from person to person, but at the end of the day, you should try to date as many people as possible to find the one for you.

If you restrict your factors to dating BM only, that's perfectly fine. However, you will end up restricting your dating pool somewhat since there are so many available that may meet your criteria. I know we can discuss being in the right social circles and keeping contact with these type of BM, but for the average BW I believe that limiting your criteria to only dating BM may make dating more frustrating.

 

[lushcoils]

I don't think it's because men don't find us attractive, but because we just simply prefer not to date outside of BM.

Just wondering, why people always think this is the case and not the other way around? Or why can't both scenarios be "true" in general?

 

[LadyPaniolo]

I find it ironic that here we have a GOOD BM standing up and telling the whole world about the struggles BW have been going through, and supporting us publically and what happens? BW jump up quick to dog him out only because he isn't toeing the party line about BM!!! He is putting BW's best interests at heart here! How often do we see a prominent BM do that??? smdh poor guy

eta: Everyone can see the truth, if they choose to. It's as plain as the nose on your face. Look at the numbers: precious few BM are eligible for marriage to a BW who has her act together, and the ones who do won't marry a BW. Look, what is the FIRST thing people want to know from him? If he married a BW or not... because MOST bm with 2 nickels as fast as they can to give it to a non-bw.

And I don't know why you ladies are convinced that no other race of men wants you, or will use you for sex but not marry you (actually I do know, indoctrination to serve BM's interests is at play) when BM are the main ones, more likely than any other race of man, to use a BW up and then dump her without marrying. Exhibit A, the OOW rate. These aren't babies being made by Asian men with BW gtfoohwtbs

 

[Mis007]

Why are the focused on us though? Why not BM or any other group. Why don't they go into the fact that marriages between WM and AsW are skyrocketing? erplexed

 

[HauteHippie]

^^^^^ yeah, I'm over it. Womp, womp. FAIL.

ETA: I wasn't "conditioned" not to date White men, but do it in the deep south and see what happens. I heard some crazy, plantation kind of stuff-- from Black men, one who was with a White woman!!! I was like, Oh... so now I'm a wench? Fcuk you!

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using T-Mobile G2

 

[ambergirl]

Controlling black women to keep black women limited!
I have felt this but I never heard someone say this.

Black men have much more power. Power not to have a committed relationship.

Women are the deal takers and Men are the deal makers!

I'm glad someone finally said this too. This is something I've observed about how many (not all) black men approach relationships with black women, but not necessarily with women of other races. I know a lot of brothers who've dated black women and interracially and it's not uncommon for them to treat women of other races better.

I also think blaming our current situation on black women and their poor choices and parenting is pointless. Yeah there are plenty of black women who procreate with Kangs. But there are also plenty of black women who thought they were in a relationship with a decent dude who turned out to be a hot arse mess and a sorry arse father.

And if you role this stuff back far enough, the reason there are so many single black moms is because of how social and economic circumstances have changed the marriage calculus for men. Some of it was outside of men's control, some of it was not. But at the end of the day, if they have kids and aren't there for them, that's on them.

I've never understood why folks want to fire missles at single black mothers when the majority of them are sticking around, showing up every day, sacrificing for their kids, and doing the best they can under some pretty ridculous situations often times.

 

[LadyPaniolo]

I'm glad someone finally said this too. This is something I've observed about how many (not all) black men approach relationships with black women, but not necessarily with women of other races. I know a lot of brothers who've dated black women and interracially and it's not uncommon for them to treat women of other races better.

I also think blaming our current situation on black women and their poor choices and parenting is pointless. Yeah there are plenty of black women who procreate with Kangs. But there are also plenty of black women who thought they were in a relationship with a decent dude who turned out to be a hot arse mess and a sorry arse father.

And if you role this stuff back far enough, the reason there are so many single black moms is because of how social and economic circumstances have changed the marriage calculus for men. Some of it was outside of men's control, some of it was not. But at the end of the day, if they have kids and aren't there for them, that's on them.

I've never understood why folks want to fire missles at single black mothers when the majority of them are sticking around, showing up every day, sacrificing for their kids, and doing the best they can under some pretty ridculous situations often times.

Because the alternative is to look at the OTHER side of that parenting fail.... the one in which a BM is just being completely absent from his child's life. And we can't have that can we? Can't criticize the poor black man

 

[LadyPaniolo]

^^^^^ yeah, I'm over it. Womp, womp. FAIL.

ETA: I wasn't "conditioned" not to date White men, but do it in the deep south and see what happens. I heard some crazy, plantation kind of stuff-- from Black men, one who was with a White woman!!! I was like, Oh... so now I'm a wench? Fcuk you!

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using T-Mobile G2

You just proved my point BM attacking BW for dating out= conditioning them to only date BM!!! Even when those same BM are taking EVERY chance to get with a nonBW. And you don't have to be in the deep south to have bm acting like fools. Anywhere they are in any numbers, you will find that.

 

[LadyPaniolo]

Why are the focused on us though? Why not BM or any other group. Why don't they go into the fact that marriages between WM and AsW are skyrocketing? erplexed

Probably because the cost of those men outmarrying has not been as high for white women and white children. Do you see white children filling up the foodbank because their father flat out refuse to provide? Certainly not in the numbers that you do for black women and children. Do you see white women dying on the vine because they can't get married? Sure don't. White women get married, and get remarried, way more than black women do. White women are not suffering to the degree that black women are, and the day that happens, TRUST that white society will jump in to put some serious pressure to bear on white men to step up.

 

[lushcoils]

~80% of marriage-minded BM marry BW, so some of the comments in here are unnecessarily extreme.

 

[Poohbear]

Why is this Ralph Banks guy blaming Black women for the decline in Black marriage?

Why are we Black Women always told what we need to do (date non-Black men) or what we need to change (stop dating Black men)? What's up with that?

And how is he gonna blame Black men insecurity on the reason why they don't marry a prominent Black woman? And then in the next sentence say, "well, Black men marry outside their race." Are these Black men that he is referring to marrying non-Black women who are lower status than them and that make them feel more secure and like the breadwinner or something? erplexed

And Black men aren't the only ones dating outside of their race. Geez! Plus, dating outside of your race isn't the ultimate solution to the Black marriage decline. Dating is just that...dating! Not all "Black women/non-Black men" dates lead to marriage.

How about more encouragement for both Black men and Black women on commitment and the value of a Black marriage. How about more promotion of successful Black marriages within Black families and the Black community. There are a lot of Black women who are married to Black men, old and young!

 

[StarScream35]

At the end of the day, I feel like BW are being socialized not to date outside of the race if I simply look at it strictly numbers. That might make this thread explode (or not), but if we are mixing with other races (via college/career/etc) at higher rates than BM based off of sheer numbers (in some cases 2:1), then this is striking to me.

I don't think it's because men don't find us attractive, but because we just simply prefer not to date outside of BM.

Disclaimer: I love BM, I am currently dating one, and prefer to marry one.

I used to accept the bolded statement but now I seriously question whether its true or not. Here is why.............Most black women KNOW as a race, we are on the bottom in the heirarchery here in America. Make no mistake about that. I say America because Europeans aren't as hung up on race as Americans are. Some sistas may deny that we are on the bottom but when we see our own men sleight us for anything other than black women that speaks volumes. We are supposedly in a post racial society and we look around and see that when white men do marry out, they marry Asian women, Latina, Native American women with full acceptance from family and society. When Asian men marry out, they marry white women and the same pattern follows with other races. Again, that speaks volumes. Black with any racial combination seems to cause the most problems EVERYWHERE among EVERYBODY. If men are asked why they don't prefer black women here comes the list of stereotypes and I know dang well these men should know that all black women don't fit those stereotypes but they don't care cause Gender racism is alive and well. So I have come to the conclusion that given all of this, black women won't date out not because of loyalty to black men but fear of rejection. Sticking with black men is a defense mechanism of sorts.

 

[StarScream35]

Probably because the cost of those men outmarrying has not been as high for white women and white children. Do you see white children filling up the foodbank because their father flat out refuse to provide? Certainly not in the numbers that you do for black women and children. Do you see white women dying on the vine because they can't get married? Sure don't. White women get married, and get remarried, way more than black women do. White women are not suffering to the degree that black women are, and the day that happens, TRUST that white society will jump in to put some serious pressure to bear on white men to step up.

Well said sista, well said!!

 

[lushcoils]

I used to accept the bolded statement but now I seriously question whether its true or not. Here is why.............Most black women KNOW as a race, we are on the bottom in the heirarchery here in America. Make no mistake about that. I say America because Europeans aren't as hung up on race as Americans are. Some sistas may deny that we are on the bottom but when we see our own men sleight us for anything other than black women that speaks volumes. We are supposedly in a post racial society and we look around and see that when white men do marry out, they marry Asian women, Latina, Native American women with full acceptance from family and society. When Asian men marry out, they marry white women and the same pattern follows with other races. Again, that speaks volumes. Black with any racial combination seems to cause the most problems EVERYWHERE among EVERYBODY. If men are asked why they don't prefer black women here comes the list of stereotypes and I know dang well these men should know that all black women don't fit those stereotypes but they don't care cause Gender racism is alive and well. So I have come to the conclusion that given all of this, black women won't date out not because of loyalty to black men but fear of rejection. Sticking with black men is a defense mechanism of sorts.

You know that's not a good mentality to have.


If a bw is slim, pretty, poise, and well-educated, non-bm will be all over her as soon as she walks the door asking for her hand in marriage. She will have no problems. If she does, something is wrong with her. Attractive women are attractive to men of any race. Men will not be afraid to pursue. Gender racism..what you talking about?

 

[DaughterOfZion1]

It's interesting to see this happening because as a Nigerian American, our community does not really deal with this.

 

[Dellas]

This is my general rule of thumb: Never fight over crumbs. Black men are not crumbs.
Let me explain.
When I was choosing a career, I saw everyone was going after a general business degree. I could go after that general business degree and fight for a job with thousands of others or go after a specialized degree where there is less competition. I can carve out a unique path for myself.

If everyone goes left, I always opt to go right. I like to forge my own trail, not follow the well worn path.

For me, I have never had the success or maybe personality/looks....that "it" factor to standout in the well worn path. The numbers say there are very few black men who can bring the same thing to the table as black women. I can stay and fight by jumping through whatever hoops that the black male has thrown down because he knows he can be picky or I seek other options.

I don't like to fight over anything. I like meat not gristle.

I have found in life that I am most happiest when I am matched by personality and values than by color alone. D*mn that dorm matching person in undergrad. Ha Ha.

 

[LadyPaniolo]

This is my general rule of thumb: Never fight over crumbs. Black men are not crumbs.
Let me explain.
When I was choosing a career, I saw everyone was going after a general business degree. I could go after that general business degree and fight for a job with thousands of others or go after a specialized degree where there is less competition. I can carve out a unique path for myself.

If everyone goes left, I always opt to go right. I like to forge my own trail, not follow the well worn path.

For me, I have never had the success or maybe personality/looks....that "it" factor to standout in the well worn path. The numbers say there are very few black men who can bring the same thing to the table as black women. I can stay and fight by jumping through whatever hoops that the black male has thrown down because he knows he can be picky or I seek other options.

I don't like to fight over anything. I like meat not gristle.

I have found in life that I am most happiest when I am matched by personality and values than by color alone. D*mn that dorm matching person in undergrad. Ha Ha.

You have said this very well. It's what I've been trying to say for ages! You can find your niche and work the h3ll out of it, OR you can go all Fight Club for the stuff everybody and their mama is going for.

That's what I was saying in the China post. Look at the big picture: millions of men who WANT desperately to get married, who already have the values that make them primed to be great husbands, fathers and providers... and insufficient Chinese women for them to marry. They are there, on your college campus, getting advanced degrees in highly marketable fields... while all the women around them are looking through them like they are invisible! Scooping one of them up seems like a no-brainer to me

Unless you prefer doing Battle Royale so you can be woman #4 in the Round Robin for one of the 2 eligible BM on campus Couldn't be me.

 

[vtoodler]

You know that's not a good mentality to have.


If a bw is slim, pretty, poise, and well-educated, non-bm will be all over her as soon as she walks the door asking for her hand in marriage. She will have no problems. If she does, something is wrong with her. Attractive women are attractive to men of any race. Men will not be afraid to pursue. Gender racism..what you talking about?

Excellent point, lushcoils. There are beautiful women in ALL races, and a man will approach a woman regardless of her race.

The problem is that black women are often suspicious of men of other races. Furthermore, many have been socialized to think that it's wrong to outmarry--it's betrayal to the black cause.

I'm sure that you've seen the movie, "Something New" or that you have heard the phrase, "Don't bring home a white boy." These movies show the pressure that BW feel to keep to their own race.

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

I would really suggest all of you guys to watch the videos since I really think he argues his points very well, especially this video: Leah Ward: Institutional American Values - Is Marriage for White People.

I need to read his book to check his numbers for myself, but a lot of what he says, I've experienced when I briefly dated interracially.

Thanks for sharing.

I found the video interesting, and I actually kind of agree with Mr. Banks and see where he's coming from in his views.

I didn't really like the lady interviewing him though. Was it just me? She came came across as condescending and a little cynical imo.

 

[LadyPaniolo]

Thanks for sharing.

I found the video interesting, and I actually kind of agree with Mr. Banks and see where he's coming from in his views.

I didn't really like the lady interviewing him though. Was it just me? She came came across as condescending and a little cynical imo.

It could have been that she was playing the "straight man". She was acting like the BW hearing his message and being unsettled, incredulous, unnerved etc, as a way to help those viewers to feel more comfortable with his message. This technique is common in the communications field.

 

[StarScream35]

You know that's not a good mentality to have.


If a bw is slim, pretty, poise, and well-educated, non-bm will be all over her as soon as she walks the door asking for her hand in marriage. She will have no problems. If she does, something is wrong with her. Attractive women are attractive to men of any race. Men will not be afraid to pursue. Gender racism..what you talking about?

Just remember marriage and dating are two different things. Certain interracial marriages violate cultural norms and so forth. Gender racism~~racism directed towards a specific gender. And girlfriend apparently you have never been to Europe. Black women MUST go to Europe once in their life.............then you will see what I am talking about. You will also view America and it's racism in a total different light!

 

[Dellas]

It could have been that she was playing the "straight man". She was acting like the BW hearing his message and being unsettled, incredulous, unnerved etc, as a way to help those viewers to feel more comfortable with his message. This technique is common in the communications field.

I think it is just her personality. I have seen her before; I think she is a retired judge. Who knows. I thought she was very poised.

 

[StarScream35]

LadyPaniolo

Rain is da bomb for real!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dellas]

Just remember marriage and dating are two different things. Marriage violates cultural norms and so forth. Gender racism~~racism directed towards a specific gender. And girlfriend apparently you have never been to Europe. Black women MUST go to Europe once in their life.............then you will see what I am talking about. You will also view America it's racism in a total different light!

I been to Europe twice but not for an extended period of time. I love the international news. ...
Could you explain how Europe is different. I thought it was different but then when I saw the racial uprising and poverty in the U.K that primarily affected Africans...????

Please elaborate! I know Europe is more than the U.K. I just gave that as an example.

 

[MD_Lady]

Listen to that ignorant Jimi Izrael

And Sherry handled him PERFECTLY.

 

[Flawless_JYM]

~80% of marriage-minded BM marry BW, so some of the comments in here are unnecessarily extreme.

To be honest I think when folks spit that line I think they are talking about a few entertainers or something. I don't see (either do the numbers) this mass exodus to non black women some women see.

 

[LadyPaniolo]

OK, I just have to address the marrige=/= dating argument, aka "he won't take you home to mama" that so many BW believe about dating out.

Let's take a look at the facts. Dating a BM very rarely leads to marriage for any women, but ESP for BW. What dating a BM leads to ends up being shacking up and OOW childbearing and often a whole host of other problems that I won't get into here and now.

A BW dating a nonBM may not marry him, but she has a much greater likelihood of getting married to a nonBM who she is dating versus marrying a BM. She also has a lower risk of OOW childbearing and other life-damaging circumstances.

The whole "but he won't marry you" argument is really null since BM aren't marrying BW!!! I know people got schooled on granny's lap that other men won't marry them, but it's NOT TRUE anymore. Look at this board, half the married women at least are married to nonBM. Your odds of getting married skyrocket when you date out.

 

[StarScream35]

I been to Europe twice but not for an extended period of time. I love the international news. ...
Could you explain how Europe is different. I thought it was different but then when I saw the racial uprising and poverty in the U.K that primarily affected Africans...????

Please elaborate! I know Europe is more than the U.K. I just gave that as an example.

Adel10

Europeans appreciate blackness like nobody else. Europe also places more emphasis on class vs race. Not saying that racism doesn't exist cause lord knows Europe birthed one of the biggest devils~~~Hitler, but there is a difference. It was Europeans who gave us Grace Jones and Alek Wek. I highly doubt those two would have been successful here in America. I can't speak for the UK as I have never been there but you MUST go to Germany, Poland, Norway and Italy.

 

[Mis007]

I used to accept the bolded statement but now I seriously question whether its true or not. Here is why.............Most black women KNOW as a race, we are on the bottom in the heirarchery here in America. Make no mistake about that. I say America because Europeans aren't as hung up on race as Americans are. Some sistas may deny that we are on the bottom but when we see our own men sleight us for anything other than black women that speaks volumes. We are supposedly in a post racial society and we look around and see that when white men do marry out, they marry Asian women, Latina, Native American women with full acceptance from family and society. When Asian men marry out, they marry white women and the same pattern follows with other races. Again, that speaks volumes. Black with any racial combination seems to cause the most problems EVERYWHERE among EVERYBODY. If men are asked why they don't prefer black women here comes the list of stereotypes and I know dang well these men should know that all black women don't fit those stereotypes but they don't care cause Gender racism is alive and well. So I have come to the conclusion that given all of this, black women won't date out not because of loyalty to black men but fear of rejection. Sticking with black men is a defense mechanism of sorts.

I agree, I notice the professor didn't tell white men to cross that barrier, but the other way around. You put forth the effort, and take the chances of being rejected. You show that you want a white man