How To Avoid Bad Guys And Bad Relationships Challenge

@deediamante
@Kim0105
@Kalani
@crlsweetie912
@WonderGirl2U
@JustSitNBePretty
@hot_pepper96

I'm back!

Okay ladies onto chapter 4, The Parental Seeker. The cousin to The Clinger. She says the woman soon learns "that his childlikeness is really childishness." This makes me think about the women who joke that their husband is their other "child." It sounds kinda cute and like she is in control or running things. But in reality he is living his life, having fun, and burdening her down. She has to write things down for him, over explain things to him, and do things for him that he should be doing himself. Utterly exhausting!

This is the guy that comes across as a mama's boy. How dangerous can that be? The author says, "pathological men are not fixable -- even those who "need" a mother. She says many of them have dependent personality disorder. She says it takes them forever to make decisions and they are always looking for someone (you :look: ) to help, guide, and support them. They tend to not be action oriented. The woman is always waiting for them to DO something. What he loves is having someone play mommy/maid. Nothing you do, however, can heal or fix him. What they do love doing is playing and having fun which is not very helpful when you need someone to mow the grass or pay the bills on time.

The author describes the relationship this way, "It's a symbiotic relationship based on the man needing a mom and the woman needing a child." She explains that both needed a therapist but instead found each other : / The woman can be nurturing and kind or strong-willed and controlling. Just so long as she is mothering, caretaking, and willing to be responsible for an adult she will be attractive to him. The danger is that they suck the life out of you and use up all of your resources. They are perpetually 10-14 years old. Yuck.
 
hopeful said:
But in reality he is living his life, having fun, and burdening her down. She has to write things down for him, over explain things to him, and do things for him that he should be doing himself. Utterly exhausting!
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Man, am I familiar with these type of guys. I am not the maternal type so they are a complete turn off to me. However, I've seen some of my friends patiently take on the task of being in these kinds of relationships.
 
And as we discuss these different types of dangerous men, we must always keep in mind the possibility of a man being a "combo-pack man". So, even though the parental seeker or clinger are not generally cheaters, that can be deceptive because if they are a combo pack, they can appear more innocent and sweet than they actually are. They may be a parental seeker AND have a hidden life or be an addict etc. Or be a combo of 2, 3, 4, or more of the 8 types she describes.
 
My ex is definitely a combo pack and this was one of his traits. At first I did think it was sweet, etc. but as time went on I felt like I was the only adult in our relationship. Most things were "whatever you want" until it didn't work out and I would be the one to blame. This is also one way they avoid taking responsibility. When we started seeing a therapist he would be sure to do only what the therapist said without any initiative so he could place the blame on 'someone else' if it didn't work out. This also fit very well with his narcissism.


hopeful said:
And as we discuss these different types of dangerous men, we must always keep in mind the possibility of a man being a "combo-pack man". So, even though the parental seeker or clinger are not generally cheaters, that can be deceptive because if they are a combo pack, they can appear more innocent and sweet than they actually are. They may be a parental seeker AND have a hidden life or be an addict etc. Or be a combo of 2, 3, 4, or more of the 8 types she describes.
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I just got back from a 2 week cruise and had no internet service so haven't been able to comment. But I was reading on the ship! And glad to see that I am not behind at all. I'll be back for my comments tomorrow after I rest up (my sleep is wonky).
 
Okay ladies, gonna make a few more comments on Parental Seekers then move on. The author says, "Women who confuse rescuing for intimacy find parental seekers irresistible. Taking care of this seemingly helpless individual gives them a sense of empowerment." You end up staying with a guy like this if you want to be in control and feel like the boss. But the reality is that you aren't controlling anyone. She also adds, ""Fixing" someone is a sign of codependency. It is not a sign of emotional maturity--for you or him."
 
All great points about the parental seeker! I don't have much more to add just that the parental seeker seem like a pain to deal with! :barf: But they are so good at what they do as they prey upon our nurturing nature. Only thing they end up doing is draining us emotionally, physically and financially. All the love and attention in the world will never make them satisfied and will only leave the woman emotionally bankrupt.

I liked this quote: "The saying 'charity begins at home' finds new meaning with women who literally think this means marrying the type of person they serve in their profession or through their volunteer work. On the contrary, charity work needs to stay at the mission, at the church, at the hospital, or at the social-service building; it should not enter your dating and marrying life." Ain't nobody wants that foolish in their personal life!! :nono:
 
@deediamante
@Kim0105
@Kalani
@crlsweetie912
@WonderGirl2U
@JustSitNBePretty
@hot_pepper96

Moving on to Chapter 5, The Emotionally Unavailable Man. The author says that this is the "number-one dating choice among the various types of dangerous men." She says, "the emotionally unavailable man wreaks more havoc and causes more women to seek counseling than most of the other kinds of dangerous men."

She says that the problem is that his attention is almost always directed elsewhere and focused on something other than you. She says sadly "they don't truly value their intimate relationships or take them seriously." What we have to accept is that "he is uninterested in experiencing or is unable to experience deep feelings of connection with another." Why he is this way does not matter. How he became this type of person does not matter. The important thing is to see it for what it is and move on and find someone who can give us what we want, need, and deserve.

It is also likely that these men are combo pack men which further elevates their potential to be dangerous. Run, don't walk, from the emotionally unavailable man.

Thoughts ladies?
 
hopeful said:
@deediamante
@Kim0105
@Kalani
@crlsweetie912
@WonderGirl2U
@JustSitNBePretty
@hot_pepper96

Moving on to Chapter 5, The Emotionally Unavailable Man. The author says that this is the "number-one dating choice among the various types of dangerous men." She says, "the emotionally unavailable man wreaks more havoc and causes more women to seek counseling than most of the other kinds of dangerous men."

She says that the problem is that his attention is almost always directed elsewhere and focused on something other than you. She says sadly "they don't truly value their intimate relationships or take them seriously." What we have to accept is that "he is uninterested in experiencing or is unable to experience deep feelings of connection with another." Why he is this way does not matter. How he became this type of person does not matter. The important thing is to see it for what it is and move on and find someone who can give us what we want, need, and deserve.

It is also likely that these men are combo pack men which further elevates their potential to be dangerous. Run, don't walk, from the emotionally unavailable man.

Thoughts ladies?
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Great Chapter!

As hopeful noted, the author states the Emotionally Unavailable man is basically the most common dangerous man that women get involved with.

He isn't relationship material because he's committed to everything else except you: career, friends, activities, other women-wife, girlfriend, etc.

I was already aware of these types of men, but it was interesting to read that we sometimes don't recognize that these men don't have the ability to be monogamous and/or they lack basic relationship skills. The other interesting thing is that the underlying reasons can be numerous (e.g. his childhood was marked by an emotionally unavailable parent who was an alcoholic, drug addict, workaholic, or other addict; he was physically or sexually abused and is incapable of bonding with another human being; he's struggling with his sexuality- he may be homosexual or bisexual; or he has a mental illness).

The women's stories at the end of the chapter reminded me that any type of woman can fall prey to this type of man, from the average woman to the exceptional woman, and even married women. Women are especially prone to falling for these types of men during periods of low self-esteem or when they want a distraction.

Chapter 5 was another reminder to me to really evaluate the men in our lives, especially if we're serious about finding lasting love and a healthy marriages.
 
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These guys will break your heart, lower your self-esteem, cheat, disappear, and disappoint you without any remorse because remember they don't feel connected to you. It's a lop-sided relationship. Emotional availability is very very important in a real relationship. A non-negotiable.
 
Ah, Chapter 5....sadly it was speaking to me loud and clear. :nono:

These emotionally unavailable men are the worst in that these men are attractive as they seem to have full lives with a career, hobbies, etc at a glance. Who doesn't want a man who is a hard worker with hobbies?? :rolleyes: Their problem is they have the inability to balance their career/hobbies with a healthy, intimate relationship. Ain't nobody that busy!! :nono2:Their persistent excuses and inability to commit are just an indication of deeper, underlying issues (@WonderGirl2U mentioned a few examples) that have nothing to do with you. If the POTUS can have date night with FLOTUS, then nobody can have an excuse.:boxing:

Bottomline is trying to figure out why these guys keep getting chances with us in the past and making sure they don't ever get a chance from here on out. For me, I think it comes from my own small dose of emotional unavailability/aloofness/committment-phobia. :giggle: I recognize this and working to be more open emotionally because I don't want to live like that. But it is crucial to understand their appeal so that when you do come across an emotionally unavailable man you recognize their negative traits ASAP and run away before feelings develop.

As for the emotionally unavailable man due to being married/engaged/seriously dating doesn't compute for me as I don't share well :look: (0ne) and cheating is a big negative (two). But again, bottomline....they are not worth the time, energy, and brain space because these men have serious character flaws that are innate and cannot be fixed.
 
deediamante said:
Ah, Chapter 5....sadly it was speaking to me loud and clear. :nono:

These emotionally unavailable men are the worst in that these men are attractive as they seem to have full lives with a career, hobbies, etc at a glance. Who doesn't want a man who is a hard worker with hobbies?? :rolleyes: Their problem is they have the inability to balance their career/hobbies with a healthy, intimate relationship. Ain't nobody that busy!! :nono2:Their persistent excuses and inability to commit are just an indication of deeper, underlying issues (@WonderGirl2U mentioned a few examples) that have nothing to do with you. If the POTUS can have date night with FLOTUS, then nobody can have an excuse.:boxing:

Bottomline is trying to figure out why these guys keep getting chances with us in the past and making sure they don't ever get a chance from here on out. For me, I think it comes from my own small dose of emotional unavailability/aloofness/committment-phobia. :giggle: I recognize this and working to be more open emotionally because I don't want to live like that. But it is crucial to understand their appeal so that when you do come across an emotionally unavailable man you recognize their negative traits ASAP and run away before feelings develop.

As for the emotionally unavailable man due to being married/engaged/seriously dating doesn't compute for me as I don't share well :look: (0ne) and cheating is a big negative (two). But again, bottomline....they are not worth the time, energy, and brain space because these men have serious character flaws that are innate and cannot be fixed.
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:amen:

Great post! These men are appealing. A lot of times they are handsome and very successful in their careers. It's hard to walk away from that (unless you've been burned before and you know they don't make much time for loved ones).

I also have had a problem with being aloof and distant myself. I'm ready to make more time for relationships because my career was my sole focus for a very long time.
 
Thanks for the comments ladies! The frustrating thing about these guys too is that they often start out hot and heavy. They can't get enough of you, are romantic, sexy, etc. You think wow, I've hit the jackpot. Then poof they are gone and you are like hey I thought we really had something special. But they are suddenly sooo busy with this that and the other. And women in general and black women in particular are taught to be patient and not be needy. Needy often just means having the audacity to have normal human needs. The baggage reclaim website has lots of great info on these kinds of men as well.
 
hopeful said:
Thanks for the comments ladies! The frustrating thing about these guys too is that they often start out hot and heavy. They can't get enough of you, are romantic, sexy, etc. You think wow, I've hit the jackpot. Then poof they are gone and you are like hey I thought we really had something special. But they are suddenly sooo busy with this that and the other. And women in general and black women in particular are taught to be patient and not be needy. Needy often just means having the audacity to have normal human needs. The baggage reclaim website has lots of great info on these kinds of men as well.
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Thanks! Will check this out. Also, great point about women often wanting to be patient and not come off as needy--when it's often the case that the woman in question is just seeking normal human connection/bonding with a man who is emotionally unavailable.
 
@deediamante
@Kim0105
@Kalani
@crlsweetie912
@WonderGirl2U
@JustSitNBePretty
@hot_pepper96

Hello ladies!

I want to add that we must decide that we deserve to be in relationships with a full person who is fully invested. "Emotional unavailability of any stripe still boils down to a man who is not present in your life." None of us deserve this. Sandra Brown also points out that the why is far less important than the what are you going to do once you realize you are with an emotionally unavailable man. The why of his behavior is essentially unimportant.

Sooo, let's move on to Chapter 6, The Man with the Hidden Life. She says, "A woman can't decide if a man is inappropriate for her if she doesn't know what he's really up to." And "What you don't know can hurt you and probably will." The thing is a hidden life could include almost anything: addictions, affairs, thrill seeking, gambling, illegal activities, immoral activities. ANYTHING! That is scary! And no man is worth having to become a detective. She says, "They are trying to keep a lot of balls in the air while keeping you in the dark." She also says you can count on these men being combo pack men. She adds, "They really believe that their lives are their own and they are free to do whatever they want as long as they don't do it in front of you." These men are masters of compartmentalization.

She says the number one enemy of these men are women who are inquiring, ask lots of questions, follow up, and trust their intuition. They love trusting and polite women. Being too trusting and too polite will get you got. Many of us were taught to be polite to a fault. So as soon as a man seems annoyed by our questions we shrink and fall back, not wanting to appear too aggressive or unladylike. These men prey on women who are like this.

We must recognize red flags and heed them, be willing to walk away. No three strikes anymore ladies. No more endless talking and threats. I was recently at a retreat that said when a red flag presents itself step back, decide if the person deserves a second chance. If you give them a second chance in your mind make that their last chance, period. No third chances, no multiple chances. We do not have the power to change people. Let them be.

Thoughts?
 
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hopeful said:
She says the number one enemy of these men are women who are inquiring, ask lots of questions, follow up, and trust their intuition. They love trusting and polite women. Being too trusting and too polite will get you got. Many of us were taught to be polite to a fault. So as soon as a man seems annoyed by our questions we shrink and fall back, not wanting to appear too aggressive or unladylike. These men prey on women who are like this.

We must recognize red flags and heed them, be willing to walk away. No three strikes anymore ladies. No more endless talking and threats. I was recently at a retreat that said when a red flag presents itself step back, decide if the person deserves a second chance. If you give them a second chance in your mind make that their last chance, period. No third chances, no multiple chances. We do not have the power to change people. Let them be.

Thoughts?
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Such good points! I definitely need to put this into practice. I've been guilty of being too polite and also giving too many chances. I think if you're going to be polite, and you know something is up, then just leave at that point. I also think it's good advice to leave after the first strike- I need to work on this one. It's easy to try to rationalize things and make excuses for some people. But I see that being objective about it is the only way to be happy in the end.

I'll be back to add more later ladies. . .
 
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hopeful said:
Sooo, let's move on to Chapter 6, The Man with the Hidden Life. She says, "A woman can't decide if a man is inappropriate for her if she doesn't know what he's really up to." And "What you don't know can hurt you and probably will." The thing is a hidden life could include almost anything: addictions, affairs, thrill seeking, gambling, illegal activities, immoral activities. ANYTHING! That is scary! And no man is worth having to become a detective. She says, "They are trying to keep a lot of balls in the air while keeping you in the dark." She also says you can count on these men being combo pack men. She adds, "They really believe that their lives are their own and they are free to do whatever they want as long as they don't do it in front of you." These men are masters of compartmentalization.
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This one really hits home. I unwittingly fell for one of these types and it did a number on me. It wasn't so much the betrayal, although that was painful, but it was the fact that I allowed myself to let down my guard because I honestly believed him to be a solid, trustworthy guy. I'm normally pretty good at detecting deception and shady behavior but this one had me completely fooled. He is the reason I took an extended hiatus from dating. I've always had issues trusting men but now I feel I can't trust my own judgment anymore.
 
Kalani said:
This one really hits home. I unwittingly fell for one of these types and it did a number on me. It wasn't so much the betrayal, although that was painful, but it was the fact that I allowed myself to let down my guard because I honestly believed him to be a solid, trustworthy guy. I'm normally pretty good at detecting deception and shady behavior but this one had me completely fooled. He is the reason I took an extended hiatus from dating. I've always had issues trusting men but now I feel I can't trust my own judgment anymore.
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@ The bolded (((hugs))) You have to forgive yourself. These guys are masters at this. He probably chose you because you were a challenge. Their goal is to disarm you. The author warns that we must always be vigilant and keep our eyes open. The minute we deem someone as completely trustworthy we risk being taken advantage of. It's not so much that we are untrusting but we must love and protect ourselves, and must always stay more in tune with ourselves than someone else. Our instincts are gifts to keep us safe. I believe there are very few people on earth that we can completely trust. Blind trust leaves us at risk of being taken advantage of.

These kinds of guys are master manipulators. Whenever someone says a guy is so nice and a great guy and they have only known them for a few months my antennae goes up. It takes longer than that to really know a person. That's why I keep reminding women to not let anyone sweep them off their feet. We have to watch for charm and guys that move too quickly. And we have to remember that they show up in so many different suits: the nice guy, the rich guy, the ambitious guy, the nerdy guy. We have to slow down and observe, listen to our internal warning signals, and heed them, for our safety.
 
Another interesting takeaway from Chapter 6 is to look out for conflicting stories. The author says this should raise red flags and cause women to ask questions and probe deeper into areas where they find out conflicting information about men. For instance if he tells you one thing and you find out from his friend it's really something else, then that's an area where you need to ask questions or do some investigation.

The author also says men who have hidden lives don't really feel connected to people- they crave excitement, adrenaline, and thrill seeking more than they crave women's love.

This is really an eye-opening chapter. It was very scary to read the stories at the end of the chapter where the women thought they had really nice men only to find out they had been totally deceived.

I think another good tip from this chapter is that if the relationship starts off with a lie, then that in and of itself is a sign the man probably has a pathological character flaw...and that chances are the flaw will be the reason for the end of the relationship.
 
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Yep @WonderGirl2U :yep:. This was a scary chapter. I think I will try to wrap up the book quickly with the holidays coming up and we can catch up in the new year with thoughts. In the end she is saying the same thing over and over. Move slow, be observant, ask lots of questions, trust your instincts, don't override red flags, heed them, take action for our safety because these are dangerous men who can cause us a lot of harm. I will be back in a day or two with more thoughts. Hopefully most of you read Women Who Love Psychopaths. Those super traits we have are lovely but can be magnets for these guys. We have to figure out how to be us and still be wise and safe.
 
@deediamante
@Kim0105
@Kalani
@crlsweetie912
@WonderGirl2U
@JustSitNBePretty
@hot_pepper96

The holidays and travel have taken over and I won't be able to pick this thread back up until January. Time has just gotten away from me. I look forward to continuing this conversation in 2017. In the meantime stay safe ladies, choose wisely, and if nothing else, remember to choose you first, your safety, your happiness, your goals and dreams.
 
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