What Can We Learn From Asian Women?

[JinaRicci]

IMO, Asian women seem to be beating "Becky" at her own game In general, Asian women are considered educated, strong-willed, very eligible marriage partners, etc. I would say black women are just as beautiful, successful, strong, educated, all those things but somehow we get stuck with the "unfeminine" or "mule" (i.e. we can take all manner of ill-treatment) or "difficult" label. I'm sure we've had the model minority discussion around here but how can black women continue to rise above labels and stereotypes? Is it possible? This isn't a "woe is me, I'm black and should hang it up thread." Rather, I'd like a discourse on what can strategies we can learn from others to stay in the game. Let's discuss

The bolded from the OP is being ignored. What I gathered is being asked is how do they have one stereotypical perception and we have another even though we are just as qualified for the 'feminine, educated, eligible' label?

Can we do anything to change that as a group? Yes- control the message. Start within our own communities. That to me is what Asians on a whole have done. Take China for example where the communication is very controlled. They are the ones who put the message out there that Asians on a whole are smart, driven and successful. What do the messages we control that reach the entire world say about us?

Individual daily interactions that enlighten others can help but I don't think they're enough. Classy Black Women are Everywhere but may still be seen as the exceptions. I agree we can't change perceptions driven by factors out of our control like racism. But this perception will change when we take every advantage from a position of power.

 

[SurferBabe]

I think acknowledging that different stereotypes exist and learning how to rig the game in our favor would be a good start
Observing other races and their use of stereotypes/pr machine might be helpful in this

But we cannot align ourselves with other non-black groups. The culture, history, and global perceptions are not the same, and what works for them will not work for us.

Asian-Americans make up such a small percentage of the population in this country that it is much easier for them to form small, tight knit communities where cultural norms and standards can be easily taught and monitored. They can easily dominate certain fields because their population numbers are no threat. Asians from powerful nations like the Chinese and Japanese have a home that is populated and run by their people who are dominating many big, profitable industries. They are able to demand respect from whites because it is imperative that the western world maintain a positive relationship with these countries, therefore, there is an element of accountability.

Black Americans have none of the above. Actually, for a while we had the small communities but integration changed that. So for now, all we can do is focus on individual growth. Every generation has a group of people determined to rise above and make something of themselves. This will never change how we are perceived as a group, but it just makes us work harder as individuals which is never a bad thing.

 

[CarLiTa]

Haven't read most of the thread, but I wanted to respond to these quotes below:

Why is it that when there is a party/gathering that both black and white women attend, the black women tend to be more dressed up (i.e., feminine) than the white women? I've been to a few events, where "we" will wear beautiful dresses, have our hair done nice, makeup done well, and wear heels ... while white women will walk in with "casual" wear, and even pants (i.e., masculine), and flat shoes (e.g., flip flops).

Maybe this has just been my experience, but when it comes to dressing feminine, I feel like "we" outdo our "white" counterparts.erplexed

As a few other posters stated, dressing in a feminine way and acting in a feminine way are two different things. You are right that non-black women, especially white women, tend to dress down in a lot of situations. That's been my observation as well... in some cases. On the other hand, the ones on the higher/est rungs of SES are often impeccably dressed. Also my observation.

On another note, and this is my personal opinion, I think some women confused being extra stylish with being feminine. I see many black women who are dressed to the nines who, again IMO, do not look soft nor approachable. They are so done up that there is a hardness about them. I call this the "Diva," which I think is a misguided sense of femininity. Everything is primped and done and cannot be compromised. Does this make any sense?

I see many women refer to themselves as divas, and maybe it's just my perception, but a diva is not a term I would want associated with me. I view that image as a hard, inflexible, one. I wonder if (and actually think that) others might view it that way as well.

it shouldnt have anything to do with race competition. your happiness should come from inner peace and tranquility as a human right. calm your mind. try some yoga, positive affirmations, soaking up the sun, good music, strolls while it's breezy, smile more, watch happier movies, look at babies, etc etc.

To speak to this, I think black women need more avenues to release stress. There are tons of opportunities to do so out there, but I think many need to be educated and slowly introduced (and encouraged to buy into) these activities. I think other black women who already partake in certain stress-reducing activities should take the lead on introducing their counterparts. I get the sense that there's a lot of hesitation and reluctance to do things that are deemed to be "white activities."

 

[PracticallyMe]

My thoughts too. I know everyone has their own experiences but I feel like the whole black women are aggressive thing is a stereotype we as a people have bought into when I have not met as many angry black women as I have nice, kind, and sweet women. I feel like the angry women get more attention and thus stick out more.

I agree with this. I find that most black women are not generally angry or rude in general everyday situations. There are situatons where anyone might get emotional, including angry, but I don't see that as a constant state for most black women. I think that people who are confrontational/aggressive on a regular basis just have that personality type (or they putting on for the cameras ) and it has nothing do with being a black woman.

 

[SimplyLive]

Some of you all are full of ish. It's perfectly fine to try to "learn" from White or Asian women/people in regards to femininity, desirability, finances, drive, education, etc yet bring up other Black groups and it's being "anti-Black American" and all hell breaks loose? Funny how some you pretend to be so pro-Black yet put "others" on a pedestal.

Insecure hussies.

 

[yardyspice]

Again, I have nothing to learn from Asian women who have some of the highest rates of domestic violence and suicide.

I just want to be the best black woman I can be.

 

[RedVelvet310]

Some of you all are full of ish. It's perfectly fine to try to "learn" from White or Asian women/people in regards to femininity, desirability, finances, drive, education, etc yet bring up other Black groups and it's being "anti-Black American" and all hell breaks loose? Funny how some you pretend to be so pro-Black yet put "others" on a pedestal.

Insecure hussies.

Some posters in here are so transparent.

 

[joyous]

The number one objective of the Black community should be economic independence. We can use our past and current Black leaders as inspiration.

Followed closely by building family structure in our communities.

 

[Southernbella.]

Again, I have nothing to learn from Asian women who have some of the highest rates of domestic violence and suicide.

I just want to be the best black woman I can be.

 

[SimplyLive]

But EVEN WHEN we dressed like this, Black women continued to be denigrated and viewed as "undesirable" by white/mainstream culture.

 

[yardyspice]

Followed closely by building family structure in our communities.

Rebuilding the strong black family should come first. Everything else will follow.

 

[FelaShrine]

On another note, and this is my personal opinion, I think some women confused being extra stylish with being feminine. I see many black women who are dressed to the nines who, again IMO, do not look soft nor approachable. They are so done up that there is a hardness about them. I call this the "Diva," which I think is a misguided sense of femininity. Everything is primped and done and cannot be compromised. Does this make any sense?

I see many women refer to themselves as divas, and maybe it's just my perception, but a diva is not a term I would want associated with me. I view that image as a hard, inflexible, one. I wonder if (and actually think that) others might view it that way as well.

I see your point and I do agree. "divas" definitely are unapproachable unless you are in the "circle"

I actually dont like when people call lil girls diva. I mean i can see how it's cute and all but meh..

 

[FelaShrine]

But EVEN WHEN we dressed like this, Black women continued to be denigrated and viewed as "undesirable" by mainstream culture.

I dont believe this is true at all.

and really how did this thread become about whether or not BW are seen as desirable?

 

[SimplyLive]

The best thing to do is be the best Black Woman you can be. Have pride in your Blackness. Be a celebrant of the positive aspects of your culture. Be the best personal chef you know that can throw down in the kitchen cooking the food your ancestors made. Be a historian in the story of your people. Have self-esteem; know you are beautiful despite what FHM/Maxim, mainstream society tells you. Black women were the first women on earth, we have gone through so much and continue to survive, strive, and look sexy at the same time.

Please stop trying to prop up WM; begging for acceptance and validation. It's pathetic.

 

[SimplyLive]

I dont believe this is true at all.

and really how did this thread become about whether or not BW are seen as desirable?

From the OP:

somehow we get stuck with the "unfeminine" or "mule" (i.e. we can take all manner of ill-treatment) or "difficult" label.

 

[CarLiTa]

A friend and I were talking about one of her coworkers, one of the few black women in the organization. That coworker had the reputation for being a perfectionist and liked things done a certain way, and that way only.

My friend was jokingly telling me about this scenario where one of the other, non-black people on the team made a comment about hm, let's call her Chanelle, like: "Oh, you don't want to do it like that. Chanelle does NOT like that. She only likes xyz."

I thought about it for a while and have a theory that there are 2 stereotypes working against us in the workplace... and that the perfectionist black woman is the converse of the loud-mouth stereotype.
Like, they're treated as 2 sides of a coin: if you annoy the perfectionist enough, then she will flip into the loud-mouth. Which is, perhaps, why simply being assertive in the workplace or showing even a hint of displease can sometimes garner "angry" or "aggressive" labels way prematurely.

It's unfortunate that these stereotypes exist. I agree with the PR comments-- we need increasingly positive messaging and marketing. My one random example, because I LOATHE that company, is that black women/people need to stop signing up to be in these daggone McDonalds commercials You would think that McDonalds is a black venture, given that nearly ALL the commercials I see are full of black actors and actresses. Ugh. I hate McDs with a passion, to the point that I report any ad by them that shows up on my Facebook

 

[FelaShrine]

From the OP:

Thanks I thought you meant physically desirable.

Some of you all are full of ish. It's perfectly fine to try to "learn" from White or Asian women/people in regards to femininity, desirability, finances, drive, education, etc yet bring up other Black groups and it's being "anti-Black American" and all hell breaks loose? Funny how some you pretend to be so pro-Black yet put "others" on a pedestal.

Insecure hussies.

Gotta say this is true. People had more problem with that thread Femme made about Africans and education than they did with the "what can we learn from tiger moms" one. Wonder why.

 

[loolalooh]

Maybe I should post this in the "Dumb Questions" thread ...

Can someone explain to me how we are labeled "mule" (i.e., taking all manner of ill treatment) and "difficult" (i.e., not taking ish) at the same time? Or does the man's definition of a "difficult" woman differ from my definition?

 

[sunnydaze]

Maybe I should post this in the "Dumb Questions" thread ...

Can someone explain to me how we are labeled "mule" (i.e., taking all manner of ill treatment) and "difficult" (i.e., not taking ish) at the same time? Or does the man's definition of a "difficult" woman differ from my definition?

Mule..aka workhorse, is something we feel many bw get treated as, not necessarily a term used by others to stereotype.

 

[Evolving78]

it shouldnt have anything to do with race competition. your happiness should come from inner peace and tranquility as a human right. calm your mind. try some yoga, positive affirmations, soaking up the sun, good music, strolls while it's breezy, smile more, watch happier movies, look at babies, etc etc.

little ladies in training! so pretty!

black women should try to be a little more softer in their approach and embrace being a woman. like i stated in a thread about makeup, black women are dated. we don't have many present role models on how to be more feminine and lady like. we have a very strong miss independent attitude. i believe this is what black men are trying to get at. they don't mind you having your own, but there is still a role to be played. it's ok to ask for help, to be a damsel in distress, to allow a man to feel needed, and to be his softer side. i am learning that as i go. my man loves to feel needed, he loves for me to be softer, look softer, be more lady-like.

we as black women need to have more balance and be able to put our guard down, but we need to have more discernment and better decision making skills when choosing friends and mates as well.

 

[Southernbella.]

Thanks I thought you meant physically desirable.




Gotta say this is true. People had more problem with that thread Femme made about Africans and education than they did with the "what can we learn from tiger moms" one. Wonder why.

I had to look up that thread because I wasn't here when it was posted. The responses were actually very similar to the ones in African thread.

 

[FelaShrine]

I had to look up that thread because I wasn't here when it was posted. The responses were actually very similar to the ones in African thread.

Asian tiger moms. Not the french one.

 

[LunadeMiel]

oooooook

 

[MizAvalon]

I want to agree with your post so bad (and actually do agree with parts of it), but I have a question:

Why is it that when there is a party/gathering that both black and white women attend, the black women tend to be more dressed up (i.e., feminine) than the white women? I've been to a few events, where "we" will wear beautiful dresses, have our hair done nice, makeup done well, and wear heels ... while white women will walk in with "casual" wear, and even pants (i.e., masculine), and flat shoes (e.g., flip flops).

Maybe this has just been my experience, but when it comes to dressing feminine, I feel like "we" outdo our "white" counterparts.erplexed

Haven't read the entire thread yet so I'm just responding to this. I believe this is because black women feel they have to try harder at being seen as feminine. Seriously, "other" women can be as dressed down as can be(sweatpants, sneakers, messy bun hair) and still be seen as a damsel. Black women have to be practically dressed to the nines to be seen as ladies.

They are seen as inherently feminine to begin with so they don't have to try as hard.

 

[Southernbella.]

Asian tiger moms. Not the french one.

That's the one I was looking at, unless there was more than one. These are a few comments from the first page:

They may get all A’s in the class but most likely an “F-” in social and interpersonal communication skills. All that obedience doesn’t stop when they enter adulthood. It may be great in the workforce but God forbid daughters marry anything outside of the Orient because they will most likely end up being one if those “Whatever you like” women who bark like a dog at their husbands command.

The mark of a successful child isn't just academics it's also being a well rounded productive adult. In my opinion in the Asian culture they put so much pressure on doing good academically they raise socially awkward children.

No comment. I wonder how objective was this study or was it a study?

Anyone can be a Chinese mother -- pick only the best children and then you cheat and fudge numbers.

Additionally, Real Chinese Mothers feel the need to be superior since they are only allowed one child per family.

And Chinese children are killing themselves because of these 'superior mothers.'

If this article were true why are there so many sweatshops in China and in Chinatown in NY? IF their parenting skills are so superior why are there so many unsuccessful Chinese men and women in America?

They work for the post office and UPS like everyone else! Many are alcoholics and losers just like everyone else!

 

[syoulee1]

Asian women benenfit from a collective stereotype that lends itself to positive points. That cant quite be "learned".

This........

 

[FelaShrine]

Can you link me, SB

Thanks

although If memory serves me right, Femme's thread was much worse.

 

[Southernbella.]

Can you link me, SB

Thanks

although If memory serves me right, Femme's thread was much worse.

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=519653&highlight=tiger+mom

I agree Femme's thread was worse, but that was because people were insulting each other directly, whereas in the Tiger Mom thread, there were no Asians here so there wasn't a lot of back and forth.

 

[DragonPearl]

1. I agree with those who say that we can be softer. I never understood why we seem to value "fierceness" and "side eye" so much. There is nothing really attractive about these looks.

2. The other roadblock we have are the constant barrage of BW ratchetness shown daily on reality TV shows and shows like Maury Povich and Jerry Springer.

Question: When do you ever see an Asian woman showing her arse like that?
Answer: NEVER!

Now, some of you will say that there are white women on those shows too, and you're right, but those ratchet images are balanced by all the other shows in which white women are portrayed in a more balanced light. Unfortunately, we don't have this type of balanced portrayal across the board.

 

[FelaShrine]

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=519653&highlight=tiger+mom

I agree Femme's thread was worse, but that was because people were insulting each other directly, whereas in the Tiger Mom thread, there were no Asians here so there wasn't a lot of back and forth.

Thanks! As for bolded..we dont know that