Oh Lord, Black Love Will Keep You Broke

I went looking for what black men had to say about the results and they are unsurprisingly quiet on the Tube of You on this particular topic. Since the dude whose video I posted is Yvette Carnell adjacent I figured he's as good as any of the few to provide a insight from the other side.

The Coli has 20 plus pages of how black men feel about these articles, if you want to read what the everyday black or other guy thinks about this finding and the other study about black men and ending back in poverty even if born wealthy.
 
My bad. LOL.


And let's be honest... the logical conclusion for the solutions!!! people can only be one thing...marry white. Given the findings of this study, that's the only way to close the gap and catch up with or surpass white women without waiting for policy to catch up, racism to end, or bm to overcome inequality.

Realistically, that's gonna have to happen anyway to some degree given the ratio of bw to bm. But I'm not interested in catching up to white folks if it means having to live in their neighborhoods, marry them, etc. Is that really winning just because the stats say so? I don't know...

I'm quoting her because I think we've gone back to approaching this from the wrong direction because folks keep mentioning "Africans." None of what's discussed addresses the core results of this study which is what I've bolded.

No shade by the way. LOL. But did the data say anything about immigrant blacks vs AAs or just black men vs black women in general where we can reasonably assume there are some "Africans" included in this study. Furthermore, why are folks assuming that "African" men are earning what white men earn? Is there some data somewhere with the median income of African men (1st or 2nd generation because I'm pretty sure someone here shared some data that by the 3rd generation, they have the same results as an AA (DoS)) to be as high as white men's, thus producing similar results of WW/WM pairings?

In short, i don't think it matters kind of black man he is, he's still going to have to face racism that's going to, at a minimum, ensures that his lifetime median income will be less than a white man, with a similar SES and heck even lower if we look at the other study about wealthy boys of different races.
 
The lady had some good points, i.e the cognitive dissonance many black women experience, refusing to acknowledge that there simply are not enough high-earning black men to go around, and many of then probably won't want you. She lost me when she started saying black women with that expectation are participating in white privilege tho o_O

But when the male cohost literally said this:

"why would black men be expected to give provisions, dates,rings if they're not a funnel for weath like white men?"

I turned it off. You can't take your woman out on dates, buy her a ring, etc because she makes more? I don't like the direction this conversation is going AT ALL.


ETA Okay, I lied. I listened to a bit more in this negrum said we've reached equality in race?? It's a post-feminism world? Does he not kno white women still make like .75 cents to a white man's dollar? Why is his female colleague not correcting him, or atleast giving him a side eye?

I've read stats that over 80% of US black men making $100, 000 per year marry black women.

But this man, sounds crazy. It really does just sound like some of them are just throwing up their hands and giving up. Because you don't make as much as your girlfriend or white counterparts, you think that means you are supposed to not do anything? Maybe you can't buy an engagement ring for 20k-get one for 2k. Maybe his job alone isn't enough, find other ways to make money I.e. stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate, etc. Yesterday, this white man, a teacher on the Nightly News with Lester Holt was speaking of how he needed to work two side jobs because his teaching salary didn't pay enough. Get this: his wife was a SAHM they had about four children. BAMN, he is trying to support his family and I was just thinking, "how many men would make their wife go back to work?"

I just hope the sentiments of this host aren't indicative of the average black men.
 
I've read stats that over 80% of US black men making $100, 000 per year marry black women.

But this man, sounds crazy. It really does just sound like some of them are just throwing up their hands and giving up. Because you don't make as much as your girlfriend or white counterparts, you think that means you are supposed to not do anything? Maybe you can't buy an engagement ring for 20k-get one for 2k. Maybe his job alone isn't enough, find other ways to make money I.e. stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate, etc. Yesterday, this white man, a teacher on the Nightly News with Lester Holt was speaking of how he needed to work two side jobs because his teaching salary didn't pay enough. Get this: his wife was a SAHM they had about four children. BAMN, he is trying to support his family and I was just thinking, "how many men would make their wife go back to work?"

I just hope the sentiments of this host aren't indicative of the average black men.
http://www.demos.org/blog/1/28/14/racial-differences-couples-earnings
However, if you combine this skew with the prior graph, you do see that black woman in couples contribute considerably more towards family earnings than white or Latina women. Black women are over 60 percent more likely than white or Latina women to be the sole earner in the family and they contribute more income than any other women in dual-earner families.
 
@Southernbella. I too am confused by the direction this thread has taken. (but not really)

Let me get this right. Yall posted ToneTalks, bypassing all 50 million do-for-self bm on yt, to make the point yall really wanna make, which is bm ain't spit and don't wanna be. Is that about right? :look:

I only mess with Tone on economics. Me and SO laugh to the point of cramping whenever he talks about relationships. He talk like he ain't had a woman in his bed since The Chronic. :rofl:

@Crackers Phinn He's not her cohost, don't know where you got that from. You might be mixing him up with Irami, 'The Funky Academic'. Incidentally, both men are Cali natives. :oops:
 
"Chetty et al. calculate the intergenerational mobility rates of black and white men raised in both single parent and married families, and find little difference. As they conclude, “parental marital status has little impact on intergenerational gaps” (p. 25).

This is interesting because even when BW marry their "equals", this study suggest that this still brings them down because Black men are more likely to be in the bottom quintiles for both of the individual earnings distribution and family income distribution, so while people are saying just marry up, is the game for Black women to just scramble for the BM who grew up in the top two quintiles, especially when BW are less likely to be married and BM also swirl at higher rates?

It would have been interesting for them to run a simulation with interracial pairings, especially since Black men date marry out at rates more than all other groups combined (can't remember which study this is from). I also would have liked for them to break down the non-Hispanics (into Asians, etc.) and include them in the new simulation. Asians and south asians are an understudied group that could add another dimension.
 
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Obviously black women should marry and only marry: asian men, white men, white woman and black women in that specific order.
Only if income is your one and only priority.

eta: and not "only" marry lol.... because clearly anyone 'bout their money is not going to pass up a black Mechanical Engineer for a white dude that holds the "stop" sign on the road crew.

So silly.
 
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Obviously black women should marry and only marry: asian men, white men, white woman and black women in that specific order.
giphy.gif
The erasure :nono:
 
I just hope the sentiments of this host aren't indicative of the average black men.

I honestly don't believe that, and just to be clear, that was not my intention to suggest that. Don't get me wrong - black men and women are taught to have low expectations of BM , but most decent men still want to feel like men, at the end of the day.

I do think that people putting this kind of stuff out there is dangerous , because it's so easy to be persuaded in the Internet Age. But then again, none of the BM I know are in forums discussing these types of things, like we are.

The reality is it's just not that deep for alot of BM when it comes to race.
 
It would have been interesting for them to run a simulation with interracial pairings, especially since Black men date marry out at rates more than all other groups combined (can't remember which study this is from). I also would have liked for them to break down the non-Hispanics (into Asians, etc.) and include them in the new simulation. Asians and south asians are an understudied group that could add another dimension.
This is not true...
 
Kurlee did a few posts up. I didn't want to quote her.
Oh. Well sorry I should have said "when was that assertion made" because I've never seen anyone here say that.
Wasn't trying to get personal, I assumed it was said in other threads in the past. I saw that post by her but I was skimming and only saw the first and last sentence.
 
Oh. Well sorry I should have said "when was that assertion made" because I've never seen anyone here say that.
Wasn't trying to get personal, I assumed it was said in other threads in the past. I saw that post by her but I was skimming and only saw the first and last sentence.

No problem, I didn't take it personally at all.
 
Can't find the article that I was referring to above, but yes, every group marries more within their own group including AAs, with white men being most likely to intrarmarry and non-hispanic Whites being most likely to intermarry, followed by Asian women, Hispanics in general, and then Black men. What I care about is what is happening with Black men.

1) Bratter, J. L. (2008). ’’But Will It Last?’’: Marital Instability Among Interracial and Same-Race Couples. Family Relations , 57, 160-171.
  • Uses National Survey of Family Growth
  • BM/WW combos almost twice BW/WM
  • Higher rates of intermarriage for BM (2nd highest) with other groups except "other" non-White groups , who have the lowest rates of marrying in-group
  • "in the case of White men and Black women, are substantially less likely than White/White couples to divorce by their 10th year."
  • "Our data show that these marriages, specifically those involving Black men and White women, have the highest likelihood of disruption of any White/ non-White marriages."
  • "Since the 1960s, NH Black men have married White women more often than NH Black women have married White men, which suggests that the intermarriage barriers for NH Black women are greater than those facing NH Black men. "

2) Crowder, K. D. (2000). A New Marriage Squeeze for Black Women: The Role of Racial Intermarriage by Black Men. Journal of Marriage and Family , 62 (3), 792 - 807.
  • On average, about 7.8% of the married Black men from age 18 to 50 in the 74 metropolitan areas included in our data were married to non-Black women, with an extreme low value of about 0.75% in Augusta, GA, and a high of almost 32% in Portland,OR.
  • A variety of factors have been advanced to explain the dramatic retreat from marriage occurring in recent decades, particularly among Black women. Among these explanations the shortage of economically attractive marriage partners has occupied a central position. Although researchers have pointed to high unemployment, incarceration, and mortality for Black men, as well as naturally occurring sex ratio imbalances, as contributors to these marriage market deficits, the role of racial intermarriage has received relatively little attention.
  • The results presented here do not contradict the idea that other factors play a dominant role in shaping marriage market conditions, but they do imply that racial intermarriage plays a heretofore underappreciated role in determining the marital prospects and behaviors of Black women. Specifically, these results show that interracial marriage, to a greater extent than intraracial marriage, may help to deplete the pool of economically attractive Black men, leaving those with the poorest socioeconomic characteristics to constitute the pool of Black men available to unmarried Black women.
  • Clear distinctions between intermarried and other Black men on a number of socioeconomic characteristics are apparent: Black men married to non-Black women tend to have higher incomes, education, occupational prestige, and rates of employment when compared with Black men married to Black women.
  • The results presented in Table 2 provide substantial support for the idea that local levels of interracial marriage among Black men significantly reduce the chances of marriage among Black women. Nonetheless, some of the general dangers associated with a strictly cross-sectional analysis remain, and these models likely convey a conservative estimate of the actual effects of structural conditions on marital behavior.
  • More important, the results of our regression analyses indicate that local levels of intermarriage between Black men and non-Black women significantly influence the actual marital behavior of Black women. This pattern of effects reveals itself when marital behavior is measured in a variety of ways, for multiple age groups, and with two different data sets: a high level of intermarriage in the metropolitan area reduces the likelihood that Black women in the area will be married currently or that unmarried women will make the transition to marriage in a given year.
  • Supporting the idea that intermarriage exerts its influence by depleting the pool of the most economically attractive Black men, the results also show that the negative impact of intermarriage is most pronounced among highly educated Black women. For these high-status women, the pool of suitable marriage partners is affected most dramatically by high levels of intermarriage because intermarrying Black men tend to be selected disproportionately from the higher status men that make up their likely marriage pool. Even stronger support for this proposed causal mechanism comes from the attenuation of the intermarriage effect when controls are added for the socioeconomic quality, and size, of the remaining pool of available Black men in the metropolitan area.
  • In closing, it should be reiterated that intermarriage between Black men and non-Black women helps to erode the marital choices of Black women, in part, because intermarriage between non-Black men and Black women remains relatively rare, at a level that fails to compensate for the erosion of the Black male marriage pool by Black male intermarriage.
3) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/12/interracial-marriage-who-is-marrying-out/
  • The overall numbers mask significant gender gaps within some racial groups. Among blacks, men are much more likely than women to marry someone of a different race. Fully a quarter of black men who got married in 2013 married someone who was not black. Only 12% of black women married outside of their race.
4) Raley, R. K., Sweeney, M. M., & Wondra, D. (2015). The Growing Racial and Ethnic Divide in U.S. Marriage Patterns. The Future of Children / Center for the Future of Children, the David and Lucile Packard Foundation, 25(2), 89–109.
  • "But the education gap between men and women is larger for blacks, making this constraint particularly important for black women. Moreover, rates of intermarriage among blacks differ substantially by gender.29 Black men are more than twice as likely as black women to marry someone of a different race.30This, too, constrains the pool of potential partners for black women.31

5) This is just one that I found interesting. Lincoln, K. D., Taylor, R. J., & Jackson, J. S. (2008). Romantic relationships among unmarried African Americans and Caribbean Blacks: Findings from the national survey of American life. Family relations, 57(2), 254-266.

Simply put, there isn't a consensus in the scholarship about this and it's dangerous to pretend that there is. What can be agreed upon is that there is a trend with BM and marriage that is moving away from BW and it affects BW's marriageability. Geography also matters because in some regions, IR marriage with BM is as high as 32% (basically one-third), so if its effects on BW's marriageability are true as Crowder argues, this greatly affects Black women's prospects (frequency and rate of BM marrying) and marrying out because the rate at which BM marry out is not being replaced by BW doing the same or having as much access to other pools.

Even if BM aren't the biggest group to marry out, at the very least, the research above shows that BM are marrying out at least 2x the rate of BW and it's detrimental to BW's ability to get married because they are not able to do the same at rates that neutralize the effect of BM's IR marrying. These men are also usually more affluent and educated, which makes it especially hard for educated women. Anecdotally, we all see this trend in private and public spheres and it will take time for it to fully manifest in the data. It doesn't help Black women develop solutions/alternatives, if we obscure potential realities or harsh truths that make us feel bad or contradict our very subjective personal experiences.

We cannot have meaningful conversations if when different perspectives come up, snark and shade try to shut it down or folks are being dismissive. Let's try to be direct with ideas and argue at the level of ideas, not with each other. Everybody is positioned differently and everyone is reading/being exposed to different stuff. We all can learn from each other.
 
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Thank you @Kurlee . This answers a question I had in a different thread but was honestly too lazy to research myself :lol:

Can't find the article that I was referring to above, but yes, every group marries more within their own group including AAs, with white men being most likely to intrarmarry and non-hispanic Whites being most likely to intermarry, followed by Asian women, Hispanics in general, and then Black men. What I care about is what is happening with Black men.

1) Bratter, J. L. (2008). ’’But Will It Last?’’: Marital Instability Among Interracial and Same-Race Couples. Family Relations , 57, 160-171.
  • Uses National Survey of Family Growth
  • BM/WW combos almost twice BW/WM
  • Higher rates of intermarriage for BM (2nd highest) with other groups except "other" non-White groups , who have the lowest rates of marrying in-group
  • "in the case of White men and Black women, are substantially less likely than White/White couples to divorce by their 10th year."
  • "Our data show that these marriages, specifically those involving Black men and White women, have the highest likelihood of disruption of any White/ non-White marriages."
  • "Since the 1960s, NH Black men have married White women more often than NH Black women have married White men, which sug- gests that the intermarriage barriers for NH Black women are greater than those facing NH Black men. "

2) Crowder, K. D. (2000). A New Marriage Squeeze for Black Women: The Role of Racial Intermarriage by Black Men. Journal of Marriage and Family , 62 (3), 792 - 807.

  • On average, about 7.8% of the married Black men from age 18 to 50 in the 74 metropolitan areas included in our data were married to non-Black women, with an extreme low value of about 0.75% in Augusta,
    Georgia, and a high of almost 32% in Portland,Oregon.
  • A variety of factors have been advanced to explain the dramatic retreat from marriage occurring in recent decades, particularly among Black women. Among these explanations the shortage of economically attractive marriage partners has occupied a central position. Although researchers have pointed to high unemployment, incarceration, and mortality for Black men, as well as naturally occurring sex ratio imbalances, as contributors to these marriage market deficits, the role of racial intermarriage has received relatively little attention.
  • The results presented here do not contradict the idea that other factors play a dominant role in shaping marriage market conditions, but they do imply that racial intermarriage plays a heretofore underappreciated role in determining the marital prospects and behaviors of Black women. Specifically, these results show that interracial marriage, to a greater extent than intraracial marriage, may help to deplete the pool of economically attractive Black men, leaving those with the poorest socioeconomic characteristics to constitute the pool of Black men available to unmarried Black women.
  • Clear distinctions between intermarried and other Black men on a number of socioeconomic characteristics are apparent: Black men married to non-Black women tend to have higher incomes, education, occupational prestige, and rates of employment when compared with Black men married to Black women.
  • The results presented in Table 2 provide substantial support for the idea that local levels of interracial marriage among Black men significantly reduce the chances of marriage among Black women. Nonetheless, some of the general dangers associated with a strictly cross-sectional analysis remain, and these models likely convey a conservative estimate of the actual effects of structural conditions on marital behavior.
  • More important, the results of our regression analyses indicate that local levels of intermarriage between Black men and non-Black women significantly influence the actual marital behavior of Black women. This pattern of effects reveals itself when marital behavior is measured in a variety of ways, for multiple age groups, and with two different data sets: a high level of intermarriage in the metropolitan area reduces the likelihood that Black women in the area will be married currently or that unmarried women will make the transition to marriage in a given year.
  • Supporting the idea that intermarriage exerts its influence by depleting the pool of the most economically attractive Black men, the results also show that the negative impact of intermarriage is most pronounced among highly educated Black women. For these high-status women, the pool of suitable marriage partners is affected most dramatically by high levels of intermarriage because intermarrying Black men tend to be selected disproportionately from the higher status men that make up their likely marriage pool. Even stronger support for this proposed causal mechanism comes from the attenuation of the intermarriage effect when controls are added for the socioeconomic quality, and size, of the remaining pool of available Black men in the metropolitan area.
  • In closing, it should be reiterated that intermarriage between Black men and non-Black women helps to erode the marital choices of Black women, in part, because intermarriage between non-Black men and Black women remains relatively rare, at a level that fails to compensate for the erosion of the Black male marriage pool by Black male intermarriage.
3) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/12/interracial-marriage-who-is-marrying-out/
  • The overall numbers mask significant gender gaps within some racial groups. Among blacks, men are much more likely than women to marry someone of a different race. Fully a quarter of black men who got married in 2013 married someone who was not black. Only 12% of black women married outside of their race.
4) Raley, R. K., Sweeney, M. M., & Wondra, D. (2015). The Growing Racial and Ethnic Divide in U.S. Marriage Patterns. The Future of Children / Center for the Future of Children, the David and Lucile Packard Foundation, 25(2), 89–109.
  • "But the education gap between men and women is larger for blacks, making this constraint particularly important for black women. Moreover, rates of intermarriage among blacks differ substantially by gender.29 Black men are more than twice as likely as black women to marry someone of a different race.30This, too, constrains the pool of potential partners for black women.31

5) This is just one that I found interesting. Lincoln, K. D., Taylor, R. J., & Jackson, J. S. (2008). Romantic relationships among unmarried African Americans and Caribbean Blacks: Findings from the national survey of American life. Family relations, 57(2), 254-266.

Simply put, there isn't a consensus in the scholarship about this and it's dangerous to pretend that there is. What can be agreed upon is that there is a trend with BM and marriage that is moving away from BW and it affects BW's marriageability. Geography also matters. In some regions, IR with BM is 32%, so if its effects on BWs marriageability are true as Crowder argues, this greatly affects the frequency and rate of BM marrying out and Black women's prospects. Anecdotally, we all see this trend in private and public spheres and it will take time for it to full manifest in the data. I don't feel that it helps Black women develop solutions/alternatives, if we obscure potential realities or harsh truths because they make us feel bad or contradict our very subjective personal experiences.

We cannot have meaningful conversations if when different perspectives come up, snark and shade try to shut it down or folks are being dismissive. Let's try to be direct with ideas and argue at the level of ideas, not with each other. Everybody is positioned differently and everyone is reading/being exposed to different stuff. We all can learn from each other.
 
especially since Black men date marry out at rates more than all other groups combined (can't remember which study this is from).

I looked at the reference you made in your recent reply, however, I didn't see anything that asserted that Black men marry/date out at rates more than all other groups combined. Did I miss it?

I think we all know that Black men date out at a higher rate than Black women, but you claimed they date out more then all races combined and I don't think that is true (I also don't know why this was even brought up).

We cannot have meaningful conversations if when different perspectives come up, snark and shade try to shut it down or folks are being dismissive. Let's try to be direct with ideas and argue at the level of ideas, not with each other. Everybody is positioned differently and everyone is reading/being exposed to different stuff. We all can learn from each other.

I am sorry, but your snark, shade and dismissiveness throughout the forum is legendary. You get what you give.
 
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