Black Women And Late Marriage

I am not seeing the huge panic with these numbers, maybe if you want 3+ children. Not to mention the number of people who have children prior to getting married so this may or may not be an issue.
If you want 2-3 children, try to finish by 40. 50% is high!
 
The other part of that is finding a man in your 20s who is husband material and to actually become married before having those children. Like the author mentioned, I doubt most black women are turning down proposals willy nilly from eligible black men. It doesn't mean they don't desire to have children in their 20s. Hell, I fully planned to have kids at 28 ... ain't looking good. :lol:

Good pointd but I don't know... We've had threads here where a lot of posters said they were raised to focus solely on education and to put off romance until they had met their educational and career goals. I agree that bw aren't turning down proposals but I think most black folks in general aren't thinking about family planning and their marital futures in their early 20s.
 
Good pointd but I don't know... We've had threads here where a lot of posters said they were raised to focus solely on education and to put off romance until they had met their educational and career goals. I agree that bw aren't turning down proposals but I think most black folks in general aren't thinking about family planning and their marital futures in their early 20s.

That's true. I think it's to keep girls from becoming BMs and in poverty. I don't believe those girls lacked experience though. They probably still dated and had social skills.

But on the other hand, black men are taught the world is their oyster, that fatherhood is optional and so are committed relationships. It's a bad combo.
 
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The other part of that is finding a man in your 20s who is husband material and to actually become married before having those children. Like the author mentioned, I doubt most black women are turning down proposals willy nilly from eligible black men. It doesn't mean they don't desire to have children in their 20s. Hell, I fully planned to have kids at 28 ... ain't looking good. :lol:

Here's what I've noticed, most of these husband material men dont mind a wife but have no desire to be young dads. If a woman gets pregnant before he's ready it puts a whole nother strain on the relationship that has high tendency to blow up and back fire by mid to early thirties. Yea he married the woman originally because he wanted to but if she popped up with some oops baby when he said he wasnt ready the best husband material guys stay but she's going to hear about it and the family usually feels is the consquences by the time hes in his early thirties. I can think of a few married couples who are currently divorced or on the verge of divorce who met in their early twenties but the guy who was husband material at 24 wasnt father material when he became a father at 26, now fast forward to 32 he is suddenly no longer husband material. that sux. Meanwhile, I can think of 4 happy black married couples who met young, got married and are still togehter but are just now having their first kid a decade later or still dont have any yet at 31 although they plan to eventually.

That said, I agree some women find it difficult to find a guy thats husband material but there are just as many women who find it but end up ruining it or dont know what to do with it. Neither is ideal but for applied to the topic at hand I dont know who is worse off--womgen that desire marriage & children but cant seem to find get it or women that get it but end up raising in-wedlock kids longterm outside of marriage.
 
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This is true.

The DMV is a special place. I like it. Marital expecations and norms are very much a reflection of socioeconomic extremes that exist here. Most of he people I went to high school with or raised in similar social environments dont get married and have kids until their late thirties. The white girls that got married fresh out of college are far from my ideal. Shouldla waited til at least grad school. Even most of my folks in law/grad/med school hold off on weddings until late twenties with people they met in college. And for peoplle like my bff and cousin whi married young at 25 dont start having kids til 30. Until last year only one of my girlfriends had a kid. But more than half are married, one is divorced, a few are engaged and he others just don't seem interested. Ain't nobody encouraging young mommies round here. Lol. Folks are tryna get dem coins up first because its not enough just to have a kid. That's wack. Lol. No ones patting anyone in the back or encouraging babies for the sake of. Ish looks bad if you're having kids but cant provide a higher standard and lifestyle requirement of quality in which to raise them in. You know what looks worse than having being unmarried with no kids? Working full time, not owning a house to raise a family in and sending your kids to public school. :look: but some folks think that ish is a good idea and really would want to settle for that as the foundation and quality of life for building a family. Harsh but I'd rather have an abortion and freeze my eggs opting to wait til I can provide my kids with a higher quality of life. Fertility treatments or public school? I'll take fertility treatments. :look:

The only other cities Ive experienced with similar marital dynamics are NYC and Chicago.


Eta: I'm not surprised Kevin Hart popped the question when his fiance turned 30. She rolls with my kinds of folks. Chicks don't start having babies and getting married til about that time. I'll have to check her IG but you should see and Kevin start attending a lot more weddings and baby showers all of sudden over the next 2 years. :yep:


This is true.

The DMV is a special place. I like it. Marital expecations and norms are very much a reflection of socioeconomic extremes that exist here. Most of he people I went to high school with or raised in similar social environments dont get married and have kids until their late thirties. The white girls that got married fresh out of college are far from my ideal. Shouldla waited til at least grad school. Even most of my folks in law/grad/med school hold off on weddings until late twenties with people they met in college. And for peoplle like my bff and cousin whi married young at 25 dont start having kids til 30. Until last year only one of my girlfriends had a kid. But more than half are married, one is divorced, a few are engaged and he others just don't seem interested. Ain't nobody encouraging young mommies round here. Lol. Folks are tryna get dem coins up first because its not enough just to have a kid. That's wack. Lol. No ones patting anyone in the back or encouraging babies for the sake of. Ish looks bad if you're having kids but cant provide a higher standard and lifestyle requirement of quality in which to raise them in. You know what looks worse than having being unmarried with no kids? Working full time, not owning a house to raise a family in and sending your kids to public school. :look: but some folks think that ish is a good idea and really would want to settle for that as the foundation and quality of life for building a family. Harsh but I'd rather have an abortion and freeze my eggs opting to wait til I can provide my kids with a higher quality of life. Fertility treatments or public school? I'll take fertility treatments. :look:

The only other cities Ive experienced with similar marital dynamics are NYC and Chicago.


Eta: I'm not surprised Kevin Hart popped the question when his fiance turned 30. She rolls with my kinds of folks. Chicks don't start having babies and getting married til about that time. I'll have to check her IG but you should see and Kevin start attending a lot more weddings and baby showers all of sudden over the next 2 years. :yep:
I don't want to take it there but all her friends are exoticals and have the market of top black men their pockets.
 
I like her blog too. She goes hard and I don't agree with everything she posts but I love her focus on black women putting themselves and their needs above those of the larger "black community."
This. I think she puts too much emphasis on WM being options for BW but she's slowly changing that as more BW/AM call her on it. At this point I'm just for BW being married to quality men who love and respect us--no matter if he's white, black, Asian or polka-dotted with black stripes lol.

Back to the topic at hand, my mother married and had me in her 20s and I know she doesn't regret it but she does wish it would've happened after she went to grad school and had time to figure herself out a little. Though she acknowledges once my dad and her got settled financially, she was able to go to grad school, study what she really wanted to study. She wouldn't have had that chance had she not gotten married when she did. Her choosing to stay home and raise her children plays a huge role in her career now. So I guess it all works out.

I myself have spent all my 20s in school and when I see my peers settling down and having children sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice. But then I look at the financial situation my peers are in, most whom are college/grad/professional school educated and the men they are marrying and I'm not impressed. And this is across the racial spectrum.:look: Plus I wouldn't trade my education/career path for anything.

I resent the idea that life must be lived in a straight line and if you don't conform then something's wrong with you. It's especially ridiculous given the economic realities and the fact that the chances for divorce goes down at age 25.:lol:o_O And if educated couples are most of the ones getting married, it's expected the age of motherhood increase. If more women are pursuing higher education, and we're the ones who bear children, it's almost impossible to get financially established and become a mother at the same time. I know a small number of women who've done it but I wouldn't want to.

Am I supposed to believe women all over the world are marrying later but the only ones doing it right are getting married in their 20s? Nah, try again!

Marriage and motherhood happens when the timing is right and that is at different ages for different people. Marrying in my 20s was not for me (I'm almost 28) but I'd never criticize the people I know who've done it.
 
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I don't want to take it there but all her friends are exoticals and have the market of top black men their pockets.

I wont lie I've always consciously picked women as friends who are above average in most areas of life.

No one is perfect but certain women are a turn off so I've always avoided them, ignored them, gotten rid of them or dont associate them. I only like being around women just like me or much better. I dont want to be around women that struggle with common problems. Like Ive never had a perpeutally single friend or chicks that complain about finding men because if you arent attracting quality or adding quality men to my enviromnent I honestly have no use for you. Same thing with money and ambition. Broke itches make me nervous. I cant be around it. esp not since being broke it the opposite of my goals in life. even if I dont have a penny, I'm rolling with chicks that got stacks. :look:
 
I wont lie I've always consciously picked women as friends who are above average in most areas of life.

No one is perfect but certain women are a turn off so I've always avoided them, ignored them, gotten rid of them or dont associate them. I only like being around women just like me or much better. I dont want to be around women that struggle with common problems. Like Ive never had a perpeutally single friend or chicks that complain about finding men because if you arent attracting quality or adding quality men to my enviromnent I honestly have no use for you. :look:
I get that, but I think certain black women might have to either open their options in order to attract a certain quality of man. I know I'll have more competition with certain men so I try to find women who look like me that are living the lifestyle that I want are doing. I can't go by exotical standards.
 
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I get that, but I don't think certain black women might have to either open their options in order to attract a certain quality of men. I know I'll have more competition with certain men so I try to find what women who look like me, and are living the lifestyle that I want are doing. I can't go by exotical standards.


I agree.

but for the bolded doesnt work me and have never been sympathetic to or understanding of other people which explain a lot of my social experiences.:look:

Is that the norm? probably not. My attiitude has always been exceptionally oppurtunistic than the average person (black, white, male or female). I've been huting black unicorns since 14. :lol:

In all fairness this is why I've been mindful to be very specific in my posts to differentiate between what may be simply my norm versus whats actually normal for the majority. I would not, do not and have not apply certain things that work for my black female friends to the majority of AA women unless they fit the profile. Without similar circsumstances, most of it wont apply. Fact is, no my choice in black female associations usually dont reflect average profiles. But that's why I like(d) them in the first place. So when there are articles like the OP it's nice to express knowing a nice number of black women who dont fit the negative profile despite the fact some of it very true and real for a lot of black women in the world today.

so like I said, I acknowdlefge the validity,truth and relevance of late marriage will have on some women. Its true, for many I wouldnt advise coscniously gambling unless they are surrounded by people and odds in their favor.
 
That's true. I think it's to keep girls from becoming BMs and in poverty. I don't believe those girls lacked experience though. They probably still dated and had social skills.

But on the other hand, black men are taught the world is their oyster, that fatherhood is optional and so are committed relationships. It's a bad combo.

hmnnn......I tend to view men who think this way as adult children. There comes a point when most decent men want a marriage and a family.
 
It is a rare person that I encounter of any race who doesn't finish by 40 and wanted 2-3 children. I would think that's the tail end of the bell curve.
which is why I don't get why they act so alarmist. Even if you start at 35 and want two kids, you can knock that out in 5 years, barring complications and planning, given the stats the posted. Why are "they" trying to scare women? There seems to be a climate of panic around fertility that I don't quite understand. I HATE this narrative imposed on women that it's all downhill after 30. That's like a third of someone's life. Do you cease being valuable as a woman at 30?
 
Is there any data out for black women who marry over 30? Like income level and education of the spouse? Cause I feel like all I see are reports that educated high earning black women over 30 are having a hard time finding mates equal or above their level. I'm focusing only on black women who don't marry out in this question.
 
This article, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/opinion/sunday/black-and-female-the-marriage-question.html?_r=1

Quotes from article:

A look at recent census data will tell you that the 70 percent we keep hearing about has been misconstrued. According to 2009 data from the Census Bureau, 70.5 percent of black women in the United States had never been married — but those were women between the ages of 25 and 29. Black women marry later, but they do marry. By age 55 and above, those numbers showed, only 13 percent of black women had never been married. In fact, people who have never married in their lifetimes are in the clear minority, regardless of race.

With all the attention on black women, I had assumed that black men must be marrying in droves; otherwise they would be the focus of similar scrutiny. Not the case. Census numbers show that 73.1 percent of black men between the ages of 25 and 29 have never been married. That is actually higher than the numbers associated with black women.

Some black women choose to be single rather than settle, but rarely is this discussed as a real explanation for why some black women are unmarried. When a black woman says she is choosing to be single, most people assume she just can’t get a man. And it’s not as if successful black women are driving black men into the arms of women of other races. The census numbers confirm that black men largely still marry black women over any other race.
 
I want to clarify my previous statements. No, Black men do not have the highest rates of IR, BUT their rates do have a much stronger effect on the BW in their group in comparison to other groups. Research has found that Black men with more human capital (education, wealth, etc.) are much more likely to date/marry out and it is most often with WW, who in these cases are marrying up. Marriageable Black mates for Black women are around a ratio of 1:2 (MBM:MBW). BM also marry/date out at at least twice the rate as BW, making the impact much stronger. This is also within the context of lower marriage rates across the board and a host of other socioeconomic factors that disadvantage BW. Are Black folk still marrying anyway? YES! But the marriage market is quite tough for most BW, especially if they are highly educated.

We complain so much about people ignoring and not hearing the voice of BW, but do we as BW actually listen to each other, or are we wrapped up in our own utopian blessings (relationships, children, wealth, high social status) to take it seriously? I really hope that we can eventually move beyond bickering about whether or not this is happening and discuss realistic and viable options for BW. At the end of the day, we may not like the phrasing or the reality of the situation, but I think enough BW have expressed their frustration publicly, in the media and in research for us to listen and DO something and fast! The 80s/90s babies need OPTIONS and support.

Sources
  • Batson, C. D., Qian, Z., & Lichter, D. T. (2006). Interracial and intraracial patterns of mate selection among America’s diverse Black populations. Journal of Marriage and Family, 68(3), 658-672.
  • Bratter, J. L. (2008). ’’But Will It Last?’’: Marital Instability Among Interracial and Same-Race Couples. Family Relations , 57, 160-171. **
  • Crowder, K. D., & Tolnay, S. E. (2000). A new marriage squeeze for black women: The role of racial intermarriage by black men. Journal of Marriage and Family, 62(3), 792-807. **
  • Fossett, M. A., & Kiecolt, K. J. (1993). Mate availability and family structure among African Americans in US metropolitan areas. Journal of Marriage and Family, 55(2), 288.
  • Kalmijn, M. (1993). Trends in black/white intermarriage. Social Forces, 72(1), 119-146.
  • Pinderhughes, E. B. (2002). African American Marriage in the 20th Century*. Family Process, 41(2), 269-282.
  • Porter, M. M., & Bronzaft, A. L. (1995). Do the future plans of educated black women include black mates. Journal of Negro Education, 162-170.
  • Rabiatu, B. A. (2009). Intimate Relationships of African Americans. In B. M. Helen A.Neville, Handbook of African American Psychology (pp. 117-126). Los Angeles: Sage Publications, Inc. **
  • Yancey, G. (2002). Who interracially dates: An examination of the characteristics of those who have interracially dated. Journal of Comparative Family Studies, 179-190.
 
I mean, what are we going to do? Not to say some of her points aren't true. I myself was just lamenting how my DD won't have as much time with her g'ma, and have as young a grandmother (though my mother's very healthy) as I'd wish. But really, what are we going to do? Marrying out is not a scalable solution. Even for the precious lovely white folk, marriage rates are declining, first time marriage is getting later, and age at first child birth is getting later. It is the way the industrialized world is going because of all sorts of factors including the time it takes to get educated/trained for the work world, expectations of quality of living, instability of job market, increased cost to raise children, easy commitment-less or commitment-light sex, etc. And though I like reading and talking about it too, because it affects our lives, truth is it's like throwing pebbles at a tank. I guess all the talk will be of benefit to a handful of people, but I don't see this major environmental shift reversing unless there's a full scale revolution.

Well, maybe I shouldn't expect so much. She might not be trying to change the world, just trying to help her followers, and maybe she can ...
 
Good pointd but I don't know... We've had threads here where a lot of posters said they were raised to focus solely on education and to put off romance until they had met their educational and career goals. I agree that bw aren't turning down proposals but I think most black folks in general aren't thinking about family planning and their marital futures in their early 20s.

The other part of that is finding a man in your 20s who is husband material and to actually become married before having those children. Like the author mentioned, I doubt most black women are turning down proposals willy nilly from eligible black men. It doesn't mean they don't desire to have children in their 20s. Hell, I fully planned to have kids at 28 ... ain't looking good. :lol:

I agree with @BEAUTYU2U i know a lot of successful women and I can't think of one who chose career over family, I'm not saying these women don't exist, but out of my vast network, I dunno naan. I'm almost finished with my PhD and people ASSUME I chose educational attainment over getting married and having kids, that's not the case at all, if anything, I thought I'd meet a like minded man on this path, but literally every brotha I've met in grad school is hotep, gay, or married to a white woman. Or a heaux. LITERALLY (there aren't many, so they are easy to count). The white ones are already married (or gay), and the handful of Latinos are with white women. I wanted to be married with at least one child by 30. I'm 33 and still single...I'm in a new area though, and I've had a much more active dating life, but I'm still meeting too many who just want sex, and they are 30-40. The men I do encounter who are ready to settle down are 43+, and as I've mentioned in another thread, I don't want old sperm, especially coupled with my aging eggs :boredwrk: I should've stayed down south after undergrad instead of going back to Cali smh
 
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^ All of this.

I mean, some women probably became "career" women by default :lol: They have to pay their bills while waiting on Prince Charming, right? Most people's social circle comes from school or work colleagues so it makes sense to expect you'd be meeting prospectives along the way. But alas ....

I wonder what percentage of that 73% of unmarried BM between 25-29 have OOW children? :rolleyes:
 
I agree with @BEAUTYU2U i know a lot of successful women and I can't think of one who chose career over family, I'm not saying these women don't exist, but out of my vast network, I dunno know naan. I'm almost finished with my PhD and people ASSUME I chose educational attainment over getting married and having kids, that's not the case at all, if anything, I thought I'd meet a like minded man on this path, but literally every brotha I've met in grad school is hotep, gay, or married to a white woman. Or a heaux. LITERALLY (there aren't many, so they are easy to count). The white ones are already married (or gay), and the handful of Latinos are with white women. I wanted to be married with at least one child by 30. I'm 33 and still single...I'm in a new area though, and I've had a much more active dating life, but I'm still meeting too many who just want sex, and they are 30-40. The men I do encounter who are ready to settle down are 43+, and as I've mentioned in another thread, I don't want old sperm, especially coupled with my aging eggs :boredwrk: I should've stayed down south after undergrad instead of going back to Cali smh
Many highly educated BW experience this! I think people assume too much about Black women's choices because they don't want to confront the roughness of the waters. Many women try and plan and simply bump into the bolded. My question is, what can BW do to shift things in their favour? Should they opt out? Adopt? Have kids alone?
 
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I agree with @BEAUTYU2U i know a lot of successful women and I can't think of one who chose career over family, I'm not saying these women don't exist, but out of my vast network, I dunno know naan. I'm almost finished with my PhD and people ASSUME I chose educational attainment over getting married and having kids, that's not the case at all, if anything, I thought I'd meet a like minded man on this path, but literally every brotha I've met in grad school is hotep, gay, or married to a white woman. Or a heaux. LITERALLY (there aren't many, so they are easy to count). The white ones are already married (or gay), and the handful of Latinos are with white women. I wanted to be married with at least one child by 30. I'm 33 and still single...I'm in a new area though, and I've had a much more active dating life, but I'm still meeting too many who just want sex, and they are 30-40. The men I do encounter who are ready to settle down are 43+, and as I've mentioned in another thread, I don't want old sperm, especially coupled with my aging eggs :boredwrk: I should've stayed down south after undergrad instead of going back to Cali smh
Before I got to the bold I was coming in here to ask why you thought you would meet a guy in grad school? The black men I know with more than a BA were locked down way before their MA/MS.
 
I am certainly thinking about all of this and making myself worried in the process. I just turned 30 in March with 0 prospects.

I have been doing what I want to do, though. :look: I've had exactly 3 opportunities in my life to get married, and I blew them...kept saying I wasn't ready and I needed to figure myself out more. Yeah...I'm STILL working on that...
 
Before I got to the bold I was coming in here to ask why you thought you would meet a guy in grad school? The black men I know with more than a BA were locked down way before their MA/MS.

But most or a decent number of their friends aren't. And most of their male friends are similar to them in education and financial status. So if he's high quality you can bet his phone is full of high quality male friends.

As a married man he knows thats the only way to keep male friends around. His wife doesnt want single males around her married husband and only married women usually want to hang out with married women. So once they gets married there's suddenly pressure and a mad dash to get single friends married by both husband and wife. A new single male coworker or fresh divorce papers are like bat signals that somebody needs to get married ASAP. lol

This is why I say single friends keep you single.

Married friends will get you married. You dont have to try to find a husband they're going to voluntarily bring options to you until they bring the right one to you or you finally surrender and find a husband just like her. :lol:

More than half of my girlfriends are married. If theyre not married most have been engaged. I only have 2 friends who've never been one or the other. That said, I've spent the last 5 years dodging a good number of my girlfriends. Especially my best friend. They are more pressed, concerned about and invested in my marital status and finding my husband than I am. If I really wanted to get married I'd just start spending more time with them to increase my options and foster a marriage minded environment since married folks want everyone else to legally imprisoned by marriage just like them.:lol:

Single people dgaf. If you desire marriage around single chicks your on your own. They're not wives so theyre not invested in making other women wives either. This is why it baffles me when some women say they really desire a husband yet insist on surrounding themselves with other single people. well duh, Id imagine itd be difficult getting married when you're invested in and mostly interact with the exact opposite of what you want. :spinning:

eta: my homegirl @Zaynab is perfect example of what single women deal with when they have married friends. Z is a typical meddling wife friend like most others. She acts like she's on a mission from g-d. When her best friend recently married you'd think she was the one walking down the aisle since takes credit for bringing her friend the husband. chick. mind your business. :lachen:
 
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But most or a decent number of their friends aren't.

As a married man he knows thats the only way to keep male friends around. His wife doesnt want single males around her married husband and only married women usually want to hang out with married women. So once they gets married there's suddenly pressure and a mad dash to get single friends married by both husband and wife. A new single male coworker or fresh divorce papers are like bat signals that somebody needs to get married ASAP. lol

This is why I say single friends keep you single.

Married friends will get you married. You dont have to try to find a husband they're going to voluntarily bring options to you until they bring the right one to you or you finally surrender and find a husband just like her. :lol:

More than half of my girlfriends are married. If theyre not married most have been engaged. I only have 2 friends who've never been one or the other. That said, I've spent the last 5 years dodging a good number of my girlfriends. Especially my best friend. They are more pressed, concerned about and invested in my marital status and finding my husband than I am. I really wanted to get married I'd just start spending more time with them to increase my options and foster a marriage minded environment since married folks want everyone else to legally imprisoned by marriage just like them.:lol:

Single people dgaf. If you desire marriage around single chicks your on your own. They're not wives so theyre not invested in making other women wives either. This is why it baffles me when some women say they really desire a husband yet insist on surrounding themselves with other single people. well duh, Id imagine itd be difficult getting married when you're invested in and mostly interact with the exact opposite of what you want. :spinning:

I didn't mean married when I said locked down...I mean in relationships withe the women they went on to marry. The educated black men I know who married before say 25-28...married their college girlfriends. Of course this is regional, but if I go to my FB pics circa 2005-2009 ( 24-28yrs old ) all we did was attend weddings....so many weddings...all black american couples. 10+ weddings and almost 10 yrs later only 3 divorces and 2 of those were 28+ when they married.
 
I didn't mean married when I said locked down...I mean in relationships withe the women they went on to marry. The educated black men I know who married before say 25-28...married their college girlfriends. Of course this is regional, but if I go to my FB pics circa 2005-2009 ( 24-28yrs old ) all we did was attend weddings....so many weddings...all black american couples. 10+ weddings and almost 10 yrs later only 3 divorces and 2 of those were 28+ when they married.

I agree about region playing a part in age of marriage.

When I think about quite a few of the black married folks I know who married people they met in college around me/here most dont/didnt rush down the aisle as fast as they do in Texas or Georgia. College graduations werent followed by immeidate weddings. Folks seemed to shack a lil longer, follow each other around the country or wait til after grad school graduation. They also waited/ing longer to have babies after they married. I just turned 30. I'd say as of the last in the last 2 or 3 years I'm currently in a surge of weddings and in the next few years I'll likely be in a surge of baby showers. I think if I lived in the midwest or further south the phase I'm in happened durig early-mid twenties vs the late twneties to early thirties that seems to be most popular on my fb feed.

I couldnt live down souf. 24 is too damn young. When my bff's husband asked her parents for her hand at 24/25 her Nigerian parents told him NO. We didnt find out one of my closest girlfriends married at 26 until a year later when she had to drop out of Georgetown and go to therapy because she was getting a divorce. My family almost disowned my cousin and his parents tried to stop the engagement when they married at 24. Errybody was pissed or shaking their damn head :lol: Now wait til bout 28, everyone is smiling happy and ready to support with bells on. lol
 
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