You Want to Remind Me I'm Not Married...

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

My SO and I are speaking with a spiritual advisor. We are working toward marriage but have not jumped the broom although we have a more solid (just NOT LEGAL) commitment than most married folks. We're trying to weigh our options carefully when it comes to legally tying things together.

So whenever we're talking to the pastor, he stops frequently to remind us that we're single and choose to be committed and one of us could leave at any time. Then he says "You're not ready for marriage... but could get there." It's as if he reminds us that while all couples have problems, single people should always remember where the door is.

My SO feels that even if it's not on paper, he is married to me spiritually and knows that we haven't legally tied up anything because we want to work more on ourselves individually and together and do premarital counseling even though we're co-habitating.

I'm just annoyed at the poor dating advice and the poor relationship advice we get from people. It's like they want you to look for a good person, have him equally yoked to you, and when you have any problems but are NOT married, they want to remind you that you always have the option of bailing out. How are people supposed to know how to act and work out problems in a relationship if you're just worried about the fact we're not married yet? Wouldn't it be worse if we just got married and then had issues and were "spiritually stuck" having to work those things out without warning? Should we pretend relationships don't have problems until my last name is hyphenated?

Well guess what? All relationships have problems. I'm fortunate enough to know a good majority of his problems and who HE is and vice versa, and married or not, we are still committed to working these things out.

Shouldn't people be HAPPY we're actively working things out in an effort to better prepare ourselves for the "legal, costly" marriage we'll have to "pay for" as opposed to the internal union we have with each other and Christ? In the older days, I didn't see people PAYING out the wazhoo for the license, the certificate, the chapel ... and now a days you can't even find a PASTOR or a church who won't marry for a fee.

Sheesh.

I know we're not married but we have to make a decision in a few weeks as to whether or not we should before he deploys. While he's gone there's a chance I'll be going off to basic myself... so give us a break and stop being surprised a 23 and a 25 year old couple is trying to move into the "proper and respected" commitment that costs money and documentation to supply.

Vent over... -sigh-

 

[Syrah]

I think a lot of that has to do with where you're getting the advise. There's nothing wrong with it but consider that the information is coming from the church and that from a social standpoint the church has been most resistant to changes in what constitutes a sanctified commitment.

That being said, I think it can also be looked at as a positive - that you're simply being constantly reminded of the end goal in this "game" and while it may be annoying to hear every time you go looking for information - it's there to keep you "on track".

Kudos to you too for investigating the commitment and defining what it means to each of you individually and as a couple before making the move. It's funny to me - when we apply for new jobs, we interview people in the industry. We go through 3 and 4 interviews. We negotiate on salary, and bonuses, and time off and benefits to the point where recruiting is less a "job offer" and more a "job conversation" complete with expectation settings. And yet, with marriage so many people enter the commitment assuming that being married in and of itself will lead to some sort of common ground.

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

I think a lot of that has to do with where you're getting the advise. There's nothing wrong with it but consider that the information is coming from the church and that from a social standpoint the church has been most resistant to changes in what constitutes a sanctified commitment.

That being said, I think it can also be looked at as a positive - that you're simply being constantly reminded of the end goal in this "game" and while it may be annoying to hear every time you go looking for information - it's there to keep you "on track".

Kudos to you too for investigating the commitment and defining what it means to each of you individually and as a couple before making the move.

It's funny to me - when we apply for new jobs, we interview people in the industry. We go through 3 and 4 interviews. We negotiate on salary, and bonuses, and time off and benefits to the point where recruiting is less a "job offer" and more a "job conversation" complete with expectation settings. And yet, with marriage so many people enter the commitment assuming that being married in and of itself will lead to some sort of common ground.

Exactly. Both our parents had kids before they were married. We are not FORCED into doing anything, this is our choice. And at 25 his parents still question whether he has enough experience...

But either way, why waste my marital virginity without being sure we are preparing for the right thing?

 

[MizzBrown]

Your pastor is gonna charge a fee to marry yall? Are yall members? I'd charge you too if you weren't members, IMO.

We had lots of folks/non-members just running up to the church wanting to use it and our services.

We gave them the bill.

Call me crazy but single folks should know where the door is. Why have all that commitment to someone who isn't your husband?

 

[Syrah]

Exactly. Both our parents had kids before they were married. We are not FORCED into doing anything, this is our choice. And at 25 his parents still question whether he has enough experience...

But either way, why waste my marital virginity without being sure we are preparing for the right thing?

That's me. I come from the other side of things - parents were married 22 years before getting divorced, amicably. What lead to their eventual fallout - assuming that "commitment" in and of itself was enough to establish common ground and common goals.

So many people are in love with the idea of BEING married without taking time to really understand what is required to make a marriage, in 2008, withstand the many obstacles folks WILL encounter. And I especially hate hearing it in females - in love with the idea of having a wedding, and a ring, and someone to come home to and kiss their forehead. I always wonder what happens when all of that wears off...then what are you left with?

 

[Syrah]

Your pastor is gonna charge a fee to marry yall? Are yall members? I'd charge you too if you weren't members, IMO.

We had lots of folks/non-members just running up to the church wanting to use it and our services.

We gave them the bill.

Call me crazy but single folks should know where the door is. Why have all that commitment to someone who isn't your husband?

:sigh:

I hear you, and I get it - but doesn't that fly in the face of what the whole organization is SUPPOSED to be about? Leading people to higher ground through information and example, not waiting until their check clears to show 'em the elevator?

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

Your pastor is gonna charge a fee to marry yall? Are yall members? I'd charge you too if you weren't members, IMO.

We had lots of folks/non-members just running up to the church wanting to use it and our services.

We gave them the bill.

Call me crazy but single folks should know where the door is. Why have all that commitment to someone who isn't your husband?

I heard most pastors do. He's a member of this church back in his home, but hasn't asked that pastor.

Yea single folks should know where the door is, but how are you going to know the person you're with is someone you can work through things with? Doesn't that create a need for people to "pretend" to be perfect until they are married? My biggest problem is that people want you to commit without know what commitment is. What's love if it runs at the first sign of trouble and uses the excuse "Well, we're not married anyway?"

 

[tiara76]

I honestly feel that true love needs no guarantee....even if you choose to marry legally the option to leave is an open one because I personally have no desire to tie n e body to a legal contract....i want them to consciously and freely choose to be with me regardless....and not if they signed a contract and their feelings change they try to live up to an obligation vs their true heart desires....that does me nor him any good, no matter what that legal document says were "supposed" to be doing

I truly feel relationships are to be defined by the individuals in it....I don't think a piece of paper holds any weight over true love and commitment and doesn't make your relationship any stronger or weaker than it truly already is... and I think the route you guys are going is excellent......

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

That's me. I come from the other side of things - parents were married 22 years before getting divorced, amicably. What lead to their eventual fallout - assuming that "commitment" in and of itself was enough to establish common ground and common goals.

So many people are in love with the idea of BEING married without taking time to really understand what is required to make a marriage, in 2008, withstand the many obstacles folks WILL encounter. And I especially hate hearing it in females - in love with the idea of having a wedding, and a ring, and someone to come home to and kiss their forehead. I always wonder what happens when all of that wears off...then what are you left with?

Exactly. And I never thought I would one day be married to anyone... so if I do this... I want to be sure that we're given guidance to begin working on our problems. It's like premarital counseling is the only thing that will even allow pastors to open the doors to speak about dealing with each other in a wedded relationship. And yea its free for us because we're going through the base, but the counseling is only about 1 - 3 months depending on the results of your assessment.

 

[tiara76]

marriage through out the ages has held many different definitions.......in most ancient esoteric cultures people were married when their souls connected as one...usually through sex.....they weren't necessarily virgins, but when they found that perfect partner where they connected on all levels and became ONE whole being together in the throes of sexual bliss then they considered their souls being married and hence they were married individuals by divine essence.......

then it turned into a business arrangement in cultures to keep family lines intact or for exchange of goods rather than having to do with "love"...GOD forbid a person from royal or rich blood connect spiritually with somebody of "lesser" origins.....NO WAY....so now there will be constructed "laws" around marriage......and since most of the time people were being arranged to be married they had to abide to all these "vows" because initially in these sorts of situations people didn't exactly feel overwhelming love for their partners...but if they forced themselves to try and abide by these vows for reasons of other than love then maybe they could just feel the love later and make it work..hence disconnect on the sexual levels...it wasn't a union of love, more a union of obligation, esp on part of the woman...and the for the man it was okay for him to go for sex outside the marriage because deep down he wasn't spiritually moved by his wife....and also consequences were instilled for those who didn't want to be in that "contract"....lots of folks feeling more confined within this forced "love"...and constructs of marriage

now fast forward to our culture...its like a combination of business arrangements and some idea of a guarnatee of love....why in the world if you are with somebody would you feel "ansy" or "insecure" in the feeling of love that you could only relax if the person entered a legal contract promising to love you....??? think about it..

and with the rise of religion and churches thats a whole nother story

the sources who say Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene can easily be proven wrong because there are no "legal documents" on record that "prove" he ever married her.....plenty of sources say he engaged sexually with her and even in many versions of the lost gospel of mary magdalene she says Jesus referred to her as their souls being married because they connected on spiritual levels of sex, not because they had a ceremony, or announced it or signed any papers.....now whether this is true or not of Jesus can be debated one way or the other....but when I have read from plenty other sources truly spiritual people from ancient times regarded marriage between souls and spiritual sex as the true definition of love, sharing and experiencing together....and people were considered married AFTER finding the person they connected with on those levels

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

marriage through out the ages has held many different definitions.......in most ancient esoteric cultures people were married when their souls connected as one...usually through sex.....they weren't necessarily virgins, but when they found that perfect partner where they connected on all levels and became ONE whole being together in the throes of sexual bliss then they considered their souls being married and hence they were married individuals by divine essence.......

then it turned into a business arrangement in cultures to keep family lines intact or for exchange of goods rather than having to do with "love"...GOD forbid a person from royal or rich blood connect spiritually with somebody of "lesser" origins.....NO WAY....so now there will be constructed "laws" around marriage......and since most of the time people were being arranged to be married they had to abide to all these "vows" because initially in these sorts of situations people didn't exactly feel overwhelming love for their partners...but if they forced themselves to try and abide by these vows for reasons of other than love then maybe they could just feel the love later and make it work....and also consequences were instilled for those who didn't want to be in that "contract"....

now fast forward to our culture...its like a combination of business arrangements and some idea of a guarnatee of love....why in the world if you are with somebody would you feel "ansy" or "insecure" in the feeling of love that you could only relax if the person entered a legal contract promising to love you....??? think about it..

and with the rise of religion and churches thats a whole nother story

the sources who say Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene can easily be proven wrong because there are no "legal documents" on record that "prove" he ever married her.....plenty of sources say he engaged sexually with her and even in many versions of the lost gospel of mary magdalene she says Jesus referred to her as their souls being married because they connected on spiritual levels of sex, not because they had a ceremony, or announced it or signed any papers.....now whether this is true or not of Jesus can be debated one way or the other....but when I have read from plenty other sources truly spiritual people from ancient times regarded marriage between souls and spiritual sex as the true definition of love, sharing and experiencing together....and people were considered married AFTER finding the person they connected with on those levels

Thank you! I believe that you can have many great sexual partners but there is always the potential to connect with one and create that feeling that lasts forever and bonds you further. I've been reading this tantric book on these types of things... and overall I have to say I agree with what you've said in this post. There is more to marriage than just a ring and tax brackets. I can see it now if I'm married and NOT wearing a ring or gushing about my wedding...I would have people trying to denounce being committed because legal documents don't say so and "there's no ring."

 

[tiara76]

I am a fan of tantric studies very enlightening..filled in alot of blanks I had on sexuality and sexual experiences that I knew I was missing out on in my previous experiences.....and I always felt a strong connection to sexlove and spirituality just didn't have it all figured out

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

I am a fan of tantric studies very enlightening..filled in alot of blanks I had on sexuality and sexual experiences that I knew I was missing out on in my previous experiences.....and I always felt a strong connection to sexlove and spirituality just didn't have it all figured out

Well for me, I tried reading them when I was youngertr, 15 or so, and I was like...fuggedaboutit. I have been picking them up again. Lower level sex is great but I know its possible to get to a deeper level most of these "love songs" can't even touch!

 

[tiara76]

yes maam, I agree

 

[Browndilocks]

My SO and I are speaking with a spiritual advisor. We are working toward marriage but have not jumped the broom although we have a more solid (just NOT LEGAL) commitment than most married folks.

That's quite a bit of reachng isn't it? Your relationship may be great but to say that its better than most married folks? Do you really know that for sure? Mo' power to ya if you do but that's knowin a whole lotta married folks.

You seem bothered by the spiritual advise or reminders that you are getting, but really that's all they are...reminders. Do you not like to hear that because you're not married, you do in fact have the option of walking away at any given time? Maybe I'm just not clear, but If you already have an idea of what your union is and or should be, why would it matter to you what anyone, spiritual or non spiritual, reminds you of? Why are you getting advisement at all?

 

[Browndilocks]

My SO feels that even if it's not on paper, he is married to me spiritually and knows that we haven't legally tied up anything because we want to work more on ourselves individually and together and do premarital counseling even though we're co-habitating.

Pretty girl - tell your SO to put his money where his mouth is... or in this case, put that marriage license where his spirit is. Spiritual union? You ain't Brandy.

Anyway, my married friends always tell me that pre-marital counseling is great but they wish that there was more emphasis on post-marital counseling. In the pre-marital stage, everybody is excited and happy and more eager in a sense to agree and make things work. The real challenge is after the I Dos take place. Since you seem to have it all together, maybe you may want to try things from the other side of the fence instead of getting annoyed at the advice you get from this side. Best wishes .

 

[Divine Inspiration]

:sigh:

I hear you, and I get it - but doesn't that fly in the face of what the whole organization is SUPPOSED to be about? Leading people to higher ground through information and example, not waiting until their check clears to show 'em the elevator?

I made this same argument at my old church for years until I saw non-members using and abusing the church's resources. As with any other organization, the church has a limited number of dollars and a limited amount of space with which to serve people. So, if it comes down to serving tithe-paying, regular attending members versus random people who just want a place to get hitched, then the church should cater to their members, IMO.

Besides that, many folks are NOT looking to be led to higher spiritual ground and get their feathers ruffled when somebody tries to advise or guide them on their relationship. If a couple comes and is willing to allow the church to partner with them in growing their union, fine, but people who want to walk off the street and have a free venue and then go back to doing whatever need to be told otherwise.

JMO.

 

[Syrah]

I made this same argument at my old church for years until I saw non-members using and abusing the church's resources. As with any other organization, the church has a limited number of dollars and a limited amount of space with which to serve people. So, if it comes down to serving tithe-paying, regular attending members versus random people who just want a place to get hitched, then the church should cater to their members, IMO.

Besides that, many folks are NOT looking to be led to higher spiritual ground and get their feathers ruffled when somebody tries to advise or guide them on their relationship. If a couple comes and is willing to allow the church to partner with them in growing their union, fine, but people who want to walk off the street and have a free venue and then go back to doing whatever need to be told otherwise.

JMO.

...it's always the "get over" folks who ruin it for those who are truly seeking guidance. For every 1 couple genuinely interested in the next "level" there are 5 people who go out ho'in on Saturday, to church sunday morning and back out ho'in Monday...

I hear you.

 

[Divine Inspiration]

I don't have enough time to say everything I want to say, but I'll quickly throw some things out there.

Regarding what the Pastor is saying, I would just remind you that part of the job of premarital counseling is to help you see things clearly BEFORE making a legal commitment. I think it's actually a good thing that your advisor is reminding you that you can leave because too often, counselors will counsel two folks right on in to marriage although there may be signs that they have no business getting married. Some people equate engagements and pre-marital counseling with the same commitment level of marriage in the sense that there's no turning back. However, I would submit that if more people stayed conscious of the door they could walk out of during a relationship, there would be fewer people marrying the wrong person under the wrong circumstances.

I get that you're annoyed by being told you're not ready, but it's his job as an advisor to advise...and if his assessment is that you're not ready, then take that for what it's worth and do what you feel you should.

Also, if you're co-habitating, I would guess that a traditional Christian advisor would advise you against that...along with pre-marital sex. I understand what you're saying but I would closely examine the source of the advice you're receiving. If you truly trust your advisor, then his opinion should carry weight and speak something to your situation. If you don't respect him, you shouldn't be seeing him in the first place, regardless of who he is.

Just because a person gives you advice contrary to what you want to hear doesn't mean that they are not happy for you. Perhaps they just want reason to hold the reigns of your passion.

I suggest you and SO pray individually and as a couple before making the decision and be completely open to God's will...even if it is not consistent with your own. And if you do not trust and respect the leadership in your place of worship, it may be time to find a new place.

All the best to you and SO!

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

My thing is how are single people supposed to date and "work through" their issues - which might be the same issues they have married only intensified- if everyone's focused on their status moreso than their willingness to learn and grow before tying the knot?

He's in the military, and we've witnessed too many people "marry" for the legal benefits. I've also seen too many unhappy marriages in my lifetime. Nobody's perfect but it seems nobody is really helping couples decide how to handle conflicts while in the dating stage without the whole "Hey ytou can always walk away..."

Quite obviously, in today's world, your DH or DW can walk away as well... take half or leave you with nothing. Marriage isn't permanent anymore. 2nd husbands, wives and stepchildren are all too common.

WHO is going to teach the committed couple preparing FOR marriage about things that affect them Pre and Post marriage? If an unmarried couple has problems, are they invalid until they marry and see a counselor, because it's now okay to think that this issue needs focus?

I know there are a bunch of men out there, but this is the one I choose to build a life with. So it gets frustrating for someone to act as if I should sweep 3 years under the rug like the next man won't automatically have issues... lol.

That's all.

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

That's quite a bit of reachng isn't it? Your relationship may be great but to say that its better than most married folks? Do you really know that for sure? Mo' power to ya if you do but that's knowin a whole lotta married folks.

You seem bothered by the spiritual advise or reminders that you are getting, but really that's all they are...reminders. Do you not like to hear that because you're not married, you do in fact have the option of walking away at any given time? Maybe I'm just not clear, but If you already have an idea of what your union is and or should be, why would it matter to you what anyone, spiritual or non spiritual, reminds you of? Why are you getting advisement at all?

Until the divorce rate drops... than yea, I'd say it's just as strong as the other 50% who work through their issues fervently. Too many people marry for the sake of status and respect... and divorce for the stupidest things.

I know someone who is getting a divorce because his wife thinks that he and his friends are gay or childish for play humping each other and it's caused a serious argument. They've only been married 1 year and been together several.

I know someone else who was divorced because the wife would argue incessantly about nothing at all. The more he tried to please her, the angrier she got.

 

[tiara76]

My thing is how are single people supposed to date and "work through" their issues - which might be the same issues they have married only intensified- if everyone's focused on their status moreso than their willingness to learn and grow before tying the knot?

He's in the military, and we've witnessed too many people "marry" for the legal benefits. I've also seen too many unhappy marriages in my lifetime. Nobody's perfect but it seems nobody is really helping couples decide how to handle conflicts while in the dating stage without the whole "Hey ytou can always walk away..."

Quite obviously, in today's world, your DH or DW can walk away as well... take half or leave you with nothing. Marriage isn't permanent anymore. 2nd husbands, wives and stepchildren are all too common.

WHO is going to teach the committed couple preparing FOR marriage about things that affect them Pre and Post marriage? If an unmarried couple has problems, are they invalid until they marry and see a counselor, because it's now okay to think that this issue needs focus?

I know there are a bunch of men out there, but this is the one I choose to build a life with. So it gets frustrating for someone to act as if I should sweep 3 years under the rug like the next man won't automatically have issues... lol.

That's all.

if seeking advice is what you need, ideally looking for people who hold no judgements, personal biases, or project personal beliefs onto you and help be able to help each person by stepping outside their personal perspective into the person(s) they are helping, and being able to step back out and be objective and real about whats going on

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

if seeking advice is what you need, ideally looking for people who hold no judgements, personal biases, or project personal beliefs onto you and help be able to help each person by stepping outside their personal perspective into the person(s) they are helping, and being able to step back out and be objective and real about whats going on

True. The pastor met us out of the blue 2 weeks ago. His advice is great and he's helpful, but the whole reminder of marriage. We're seeing him because we do want to go back to church as well as study on our own...

It's hard to find objective people these days.

 

[ebonylocs]

Regarding what the Pastor is saying, I would just remind you that part of the job of premarital counseling is to help you see things clearly BEFORE making a legal commitment. I think it's actually a good thing that your advisor is reminding you that you can leave because too often, counselors will counsel two folks right on in to marriage although there may be signs that they have no business getting married.

I agree in a way. But there should be a balance. He should maybe say it once at their first meeting, and afterwards only bring it up when there are SERIOUS intractable disagreements. And it shouldn't be a "You can walk away anytime" (because IMO that goes without saying and applies to ALL relationships, including married ones), but more of a "Make sure that you're compatible and right for each other before expending too much energy or entering a binding commitment." Different phrasing, makes a difference.

Lauryn, I think it's very mature of you and your SO to seek counselling to work out your issues before even getting engaged. But I think you should accept that a church isn't going to be *very* interested in giving couples advice to an unmarried couple (especially one in a sexual relationship). The pastor may also see it from an expenditure of energy point of view, especially if you two seem to have many / serious problems. He might be thinking, "They have so many problems and no binding commitment. Why spend so much energy trying to fix something so dysfunctional when they can legitimately just split up and go find someone more compatible?). (I'm just hypothesising here - don't know how many problems you have).

That said, why don't you two see a non-religious couples counsellor e.g. at a health centre, etc?

But in general, I agree with you. Churches should maybe have at least a few sessions of pre-engagement counselling, then pre-marital counselling after the engagement. Because engagements are a big decision, and backing out of one is viewed very badly. Most people when they get engaged don't do it on a "maybe" basis. They are declaring their *intention* to get married. So it makes sense to work out all/most of the important issues before even getting engaged.

 

[spelmanlocks]

My husband and I attended a pre-marital course at our church and they emphasized the same thing, that you are single and its better to leave a relationship than marry someone with a ton of red flags and end up in divorce. A few couples actually did end up breaking apart during the class and some postponed their wedding plans to re-focus on their relationship.

I believe a lot of couples marry thinking they can get through certain issues, but after the wedding the reality sets in that they can't handle some issue that they thought they could. Or other issues pop up that they didn't discuss pre-marriage. Our pastor told us that he sees so many couples excited about their wedding day and then a few months after the wedding they are in his office breaking down over marital problems.

Perhaps your pastor just wants to remind you that you are not stuck, because some people do marry just because they've been with a person X amount of years or just because they want to be married. If the pastor does not know you all that well, its really hard for him to know that, so perhaps he is just trying to get a sense of your commitment to each other before he marries you?

Its easier for him to say these things now, because the church may look at divorce as a sin. I know my church is of the belief that no matter how bad your marriage is, you should not divorce.

 

[Vanity1]

True. The pastor met us out of the blue 2 weeks ago. His advice is great and he's helpful, but the whole reminder of marriage. We're seeing him because we do want to go back to church as well as study on our own...

It's hard to find objective people these days.

You might want to seek secular counseling one day. I was lucky to have a priest who really kept us on track, he didn't interject his own opinions and beliefs into our sessions, and it helped us along the way. We were blessed to have him, but the horror stories I have heard along the way about these church leaders offering pre marital guidance. And then they not practicing what they preach themselves.

I agree with tiara on finding a nonbiased party, you don't need a reminder of how you are not married yet. That kind of defeats the purpose of the counseling, cause you are there to work towards that step.

When you are taking marriage into consideration, the last thing you need is someone to fog your viewpoint of it. They should be there to help provide clarity and to help the two of you evaluate where you are now and whether or not marriage is right for you at any given time. They may give an opinion, but it definately won't be one to discourage you. When DH and I had counseling, we were at a very very tough time, and even then, the priest wasn't like, oh, well, it isnt too late to back out, and you two don't need to get married. He let us make that decision on our own and the only opinion he ever offered was that we had some things we needed to discuss amonst ourselves. He even gave us homework to do.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Maybe they are seeing something that you're not seeing? I hope not. Just in case, the following should help you determine if he's the one. Blessings to you both:

Ten Ways to Marry the Wrong Person
by Rabbi Dov Heller, M.A.

Blind love is not the way to choose a spouse. Here are practical tools for keeping your eyes wide open.
With the divorce rate over 50 percent, too many are apparently making a serious mistake in deciding who to spend the rest of their life with. To avoid becoming a "statistic," try to internalize these 10 insights.
#1. You pick the wrong person because you expect him/her to change after you're married.
The classic mistake. Never marry potential. The golden rule is, if you can't be happy with the person the way he or she is now, don't get married. As a colleague of mine so wisely put it, "You actually can expect people to change after their married... for the worst!"
So when it comes to the other person's spirituality, character, personal hygiene, communication skills, and personal habits, make sure you can live with these as they are now.
#2. You pick the wrong person because you focus more on chemistry than on character.
Chemistry ignites the fire, but good character keeps it burning. Beware of the "I'm in love" syndrome. "I'm in love" often means, "I'm in lust." Attraction is there, but have you carefully checked out this person's character?
Here are four character traits to definitely check for:
Humility: Does this person believe that "doing the right thing" is more important than personal comfort?
Kindness: Does this person enjoy giving pleasure to other people? How does s/he treat people s/he doesn't have to be nice to? Does s/he do volunteer work? Give charity?
Responsibility: Can I depend on this person to do what s/he says s/he's going to do?
Happiness: Does this person like himself? Does s/he enjoy life? Is s/he emotionally stable?
Ask yourself: Do I want to be more like this person? Do I want to have a child with this person? Would I like my child to turn out like him or her?
#3. You pick the wrong person because the man doesn't understand what a woman needs most.
Men and women have unique emotional needs, and more often than not, it is the man who just doesn't "get it." Jewish tradition places the onus on the man to understand the emotional needs of a woman and to satisfy them.
The unique need of a woman is to be loved -- to feel that she is the most important person in her husband's life. The husband needs to give her consistent, quality attention.
This is most apparent in Judaism's approach to intimacy. The Torah obligates the husband to meet the intimate needs of his wife. Intimacy is always on the woman's terms. Men are goal-oriented, especially when it comes this area. As a wise woman once pointed out, "Men have two speeds: on and off." Women are experience-oriented. When a man is able to switch gears and become more experience-oriented, he will discover what makes his wife very happy. When the man forgets about his own needs and focuses on giving his wife pleasure, amazing things happen.
#4. You choose the wrong person because you do not share a common life goals and priorities.


There are three basic ways we connect with another person:

1. chemistry and compatibility
2. share common interests
3. share common life goal

Make sure you share the deeper level of connection that sharing life goals provide. After marriage, the two of you will either grow together or grow apart. To avoid growing apart, you must figure out what you're "living for," while you're single -- and then find someone who has come to the same conclusion as you.
This is the true definition of a "soul mate." A soul mate is a goal mate -- two people who ultimately share the same understanding of life's purpose and therefore share the same priorities, values and goals.
#5. You choose the wrong person because you get intimately involved too quickly.
Intimacy before the commitment of marriage can be a big problem because it often precludes a fully honest exploration of important issues. Physical involvement tends to cloud one's mind. And a clouded mind is not inclined to make good decisions.
It is not necessary to take a "test drive" in order to find out if a couple is physically compatible. If you do your homework and make sure you are intellectually and emotionally compatible, you don't have to worry about it. Of all the studies done on divorce, incompatibility in the intimate arena is almost never cited as a main reason why people divorce.
#6. You pick the wrong person because you do not have a deeper emotional connection with this person.
To evaluate whether you have a deeper emotional connection or not, ask: "Do I respect and admire this person?"
This does not mean, "Am I impressed by this person?" We are impressed by a Mercedes. We do not respect someone because they own a Mercedes. You should be impressed by qualities of creativity, loyalty, determination, etc.
Also ask: "Do I trust this person?" This also means, "Is he/she emotionally stable? Do I feel I can rely on him/her?
#7. You pick the wrong person because you choose someone with whom you don't feel emotionally safe.
Ask yourself the following questions: Do I feel calm, peaceful and relaxed with this person? Can I fully be myself and express myself with this person? Does this person make me feel good about myself? Do you have a really close friend who does make you feel this way? Make sure the person you marry makes you feel the same way!
Are you afraid of this person in any way? You should not feel you need to monitor what you say because you are afraid of how the other person will view it. If you're afraid to express your feelings and opinions openly, there's a problem with the relationship.
Another aspect of feeling safe is that you don't feel the other person is trying to control you. Controlling behaviors are a sign of an abusive person. Be on the look out for someone who is always trying to change you. There's a big difference between "controlling" and "making suggestions." A suggestion is made for your benefit; a control statement is made for their benefit.
#8. You pick the wrong person because you don't put everything on the table.
Anything that bothers you about the relationship must be brought up for discussion. Bringing up the uncomfortable stuff is the only way to evaluate how well the two of you communicate, negotiate, and work together. Over the course of a lifetime, difficulties will inevitably arise. You need to know now, before making a commitment: Can you resolve your differences and find compromises that work for both of you?
Never be afraid to let the person know what bothers you. This is also a way for you to test how vulnerable you can be with this person. If you can't be vulnerable, then you can't be intimate. The two go hand in hand.
#9. You pick the wrong person because you use the relationship to escape from personal problems and unhappiness.
If you are unhappy and single, you'll probably be unhappy and married, too. Marriage does not fix personal, psychological and emotional problems. If anything, marriage will exacerbate them.
If you are not happy with yourself and your life, take responsibility to fix it now while you are single. You'll feel better, and your future spouse will thank you.
#10. You pick the wrong person because he/she is involved in a triangle.
To be "triangulated" means a person is emotionally dependent on someone or something else while trying to develop another relationship. A person who hasn't separated from his or her parents is the classic example of triangulation. People can also be triangulated with things as well, such as work, drugs, Internet, hobbies, sports or money.
Be careful that you and your partner are free of triangles. The person caught in the triangle cannot be fully emotionally available to you. You will not be their number one priority. And that's no basis for a marriage.

 

[Divine Inspiration]

I agree in a way. But there should be a balance. He should maybe say it once at their first meeting, and afterwards only bring it up when there are SERIOUS intractable disagreements. And it shouldn't be a "You can walk away anytime" (because IMO that goes without saying and applies to ALL relationships, including married ones), but more of a "Make sure that you're compatible and right for each other before expending too much energy or entering a binding commitment." Different phrasing, makes a difference.

Lauryn, I think it's very mature of you and your SO to seek counselling to work out your issues before even getting engaged. But I think you should accept that a church isn't going to be *very* interested in giving couples advice to an unmarried couple (especially one in a sexual relationship). The pastor may also see it from an expenditure of energy point of view, especially if you two seem to have many / serious problems. He might be thinking, "They have so many problems and no binding commitment. Why spend so much energy trying to fix something so dysfunctional when they can legitimately just split up and go find someone more compatible?). (I'm just hypothesising here - don't know how many problems you have).


That said, why don't you two see a non-religious couples counsellor e.g. at a health centre, etc?

But in general, I agree with you. Churches should maybe have at least a few sessions of pre-engagement counselling, then pre-marital counselling after the engagement. Because engagements are a big decision, and backing out of one is viewed very badly. Most people when they get engaged don't do it on a "maybe" basis. They are declaring their *intention* to get married. So it makes sense to work out all/most of the important issues before even getting engaged.

To the green: I agree. TLD didn't state the phrasing verbatim so I was just making the point that a general warning is not necessarily a bad thing nor is it an indication that he does not want to see them married and happy.

To the magenta: I respectfully disagree. I can name several pastors off the top of my head who are VERY interested in working with unmarried couples because they see the opportunity to teach people some important things about marriage before they make the leap. My pastor, in particular, is quick to sit down with a couple and help in any way he can, and he is not there to pass judgment...only to be honest about what God said about marriage and relationships and to gently offer his own insights based on his successful marriage. I'm not saying whether her pastor is or isn't this way...I just think it's a bit presumptuous to say one way or the other.

Also, TLD, I second the suggestions to see someone outside of your church, but I would not recommend seeing a non-Christian counselor. A (insert other belief system here) counselor will NOT be able to give you proper guidance from a spiritual standpoint if that is what you seek. I do think there is a distinct difference between a Pastor counseling a couple versus a licensed Christian MFT counseling a couple. I prefer the latter.

My thing is how are single people supposed to date and "work through" their issues - which might be the same issues they have married only intensified- if everyone's focused on their status moreso than their willingness to learn and grow before tying the knot?

He's in the military, and we've witnessed too many people "marry" for the legal benefits. I've also seen too many unhappy marriages in my lifetime. Nobody's perfect but it seems nobody is really helping couples decide how to handle conflicts while in the dating stage without the whole "Hey ytou can always walk away..."

Quite obviously, in today's world, your DH or DW can walk away as well... take half or leave you with nothing. Marriage isn't permanent anymore. 2nd husbands, wives and stepchildren are all too common.

WHO is going to teach the committed couple preparing FOR marriage about things that affect them Pre and Post marriage? If an unmarried couple has problems, are they invalid until they marry and see a counselor, because it's now okay to think that this issue needs focus?

I know there are a bunch of men out there, but this is the one I choose to build a life with. So it gets frustrating for someone to act as if I should sweep 3 years under the rug like the next man won't automatically have issues... lol.

That's all.

I can't really speak to the issue of focus because I do not know what language the advisor used nor do I know the specifics of your relationship with him, but I will say that reminding and focusing are two different things. Your title uses the word "remind' but in the thread you have said "focus". I only bring that up because if a person can only be concerned with your status, then that obviously poses a problem, but if a person is simply reminding you of the fact that you are not married, it may be for good reason.

To the purple, I can understand you wanting the support of everyone around you, but like I said before, I think you should be completely sure that your will and God's will are in alignment because the fact that you chose and continue to choose this man does not necessarily mean it is right or that it is what God wants for you. OTOH, it may be very well be that he is truly meant to be your husband and these are simply wrinkles that have to be ironed out. I think it's key to know which is the case beforehand and not go in guessing.

Either way, I have to agree with the poster who said that what you're doing is very mature. You recognize that there are things that need to be addressed, and you're attempting to do so. Kudos to you and SO for that.

JM .02

 

[Farida]

Co-habiting couples have higher divorce rates than couples who didn't. I don't think it is merely because they cohabitated, but perhaps because of their mindset, and for some of them, I think they get stuck in the idea that now they are living together and there is no going back.

Perhaps he wanted to remind you, that even though you have meshed your lives together already and made whatever commitment to each other, you still have a chance to leave. It is better to leave now than stay. It may also be a test. If the two of you choose the way out, then you aren't marriage material, or maybe you have long ignored serious issues that are red flags.

Some counselors have weird tactics. DHs adoptive mom was telling us when she was in counseling their guy deliberately tried to make them butt heads. At the end he said, "If I can make you break up, imagine would've done to you."

 

[MissMeWithThatIsh]

Overall I want to thank everyone for their support and insight.

I will continue seeing this pastor, and we are both interested in seeing where things go but there are no promises in life and I will just let things work themselves out.

I want and wish to serve God, he does too, and that starts with putting Him in our lives and our relationship if it was meant to be.