Those Aren’t Fighting Words, Dear

She is a much stronger woman than me. I don't know if I could have reacted in such a way.....but I have not been married for half my life & we don't have kids.

Great article. I am going to send this to some friends (married & single).
 
Wow.

I'm deeply impressed by this. She refused to fight him, and she refused to encourage him to leave. I'm rather surprised at all the women who would not only open the door for their husband to leave because he's hit a rough spot in their relationship, but who would also pack his bags. :perplexed

I don't understand how you can value marriage and the lifetime commitment it is, and then turn around and say 'As soon as you start disrespecting me, I'm gone' - uhhh, no. :lachen: Sometimes people need time to be in their own head, and to work through their own issues - and that's what she gave him - while still insuring that he was a 'part' - functional, or not - of the family and household they had built together. Does that mean he was a crappy husband for a while? Yes, but he was still her husband. Does that mean that she might come home one day, and he's packed and left? Yes, but that would take him coming to some solid belief/certainty in his own mind, not being encouraged to go there by a wife willing to fight - or push - him away. Was it a certainty that she would win? No - that's why she gave herself - and him - six months. But it's a crapload more than most people give their marriages - or each other.

Would he do the same thing? Most likely no. But men tend to gain from divorce, while women tend to lose - he wouldn't have the same urge/drive to save his marriage that she did.

Very powerful.
 
I am glad it worked out for THAT lady, however my situation was much different. When me and my brother was in middle school, my dad told my mother that he wanted to divorce he and wanted move in a house on the golf course. My mother shrugged it off as " he's going through a mid life crisis and this will pass" NOT!!! My parents never argued ever. They just weren't lovy dovy toward each other. I never saw my parents sit in the couch, hold hands, kiss or show any kind of affection or love between them. Our house was always cold as if there was no love in the air. My dad was the first to come home from work and most of the time he was not happy and when he would come home he would find something to argue with me and my brother about. I HATED living at home w/my parents!! Me and my brother used to WISH that they would get a divorce, so that they would be more happier around us. Fast forward 20 plus years, my parents live in the same house and dont even share the same bedroom. My mother still says that dad was going through a "midlife crisis" however, one day my dad got drunk when my mom was out of town and told me that he wished he WOULD have gotten a divorce and not listened to mom about staying. WOW! Twenty plus years later he still feels the same way!!!
If my husband ever said he didn't love me, I would think of my dad and file for divorce. I tend to believe that men do mean what they say.
 
I've been having a "discussion" with a few friends via email about this article....some married & some single.

The consensus is that too many couples break up quickly or seek revenge and then walk away - including one recently married friend that just had a baby & is already separated. Not to say they were wrong to separate because, from her perspective, he lost his darn mind & may have been cheating for a while.

The woman in the article realized, after confirming that he was not cheating or into drugs, that her marriage was worth saving and she needed to hold on to it and/or rebuild. We have also agreed that she had a lot of patience and wisdom as well as being spiritually balanced.

Still, I don't know if I could work on the marriage with him in the same house, acting like a jerk. One friend said she might be tempted to throw something at her DH if this were him & they worked it out while still living together.

I plan to show DH this article and get his take.
 
I've been having a "discussion" with a few friends via email about this article....some married & some single.

The consensus is that too many couples break up quickly or seek revenge and then walk away - including one recently married friend that just had a baby & is already separated. Not to say they were wrong to separate because, from her perspective, he lost his darn mind & may have been cheating for a while....
I agree 100% with this point and have seen it made in several comments about this article. My DH has always said, however, that a person can only give "100% of their 50%" in a relationship (he said this when discussing past relationships where women had taken advantage of his kindness). I've heard a lot of women complain about the consequences of being the "glue" that holds their relationships (marriages and committed LTRs with "good" men) together and giving 200% while DH/SO gives 0%. How do women reconcile doing their "part" while not allowing their love to be treated like charity (i.e. something given out of kindness with no expectation of reciprocity)? While I do think there's some value in taking the high ground, I can't help but notice the disappointment and resentment many women feel from unfulfilled (and unexpressed) expectations.

BTW, I'm not picking on you Naturaltobe, just asking a general question. :drunk:
 
I agree 100% with this point and have seen it made in several comments about this article. My DH has always said, however, that a person can only give "100% of their 50%" in a relationship (he said this when discussing past relationships where women had taken advantage of his kindness). I've heard a lot of women complain about the consequences of being the "glue" that holds their relationships (marriages and committed LTRs with "good" men) together and giving 200% while DH/SO gives 0%. How do women reconcile doing their "part" while not allowing their love to be treated like charity (i.e. something given out of kindness with no expectation of reciprocity)? While I do think there's some value in taking the high ground, I can't help but notice the disappointment and resentment many women feel from unfulfilled (and unexpressed) expectations.

BTW, I'm not picking on you Naturaltobe, just asking a general question. :drunk:

Uh, no. My part expects - no, demands reciprocity. That means sometimes I'm a *itch, and he puts up with me. That means sometimes he's an arsehole, and I put up with him. That's reciprocity. I don't have to walk around on eggshells when I have a bad day - I just give him a heads up. He does the same for me. Sometimes we have days where we can't give each other heads up, and we work through it - like mature adults who will be together for life. I expect him to love me. I expect him to demonstrate that he loves me - and to demonstrate it in ways that I have expressed to him I feel loved.

If you go 10 years in a relationship, and don't say boo about nothing, and come up on year ten and you are all in a snit because he ain't doing x and y and z, and yet at no point in those ten years did you open your mouth and tell him - clearly and precisely, with enough conversation to be sure that he understood you - what you wanted/needed - I'm sorry sis, but I've got no sympathy for you. Humans aren't telepathic just yet, and far too many women are willing to 'do' in silence, and just expect him magically one day to look up and realize what she wants him to do. Hmprh. Really? And when has that ever worked?

So, if I haven't expressed an expectation to you, I have no right to be upset when you don't fulfil it. And it doesn't matter WHAT the expectation is, or how 'common' it is.

On the other hand, if I have expressed an expectation to you - and I have gotten your clear agreement - and yet you do not choose to fulfil it - assuming I have requested something that is within your power - NOW, we have an issue.
It could be something on the surface that I can accept (DH don't load the dishwasher how I like, for example). It could be something that I should have noticed before we got married, and it's deep rooted in him (haven't found a negative one yet). He could just be a lazy, unappreciative bastard - and that, now that is grounds to get some outside help for.

Too many women mule through life, love, and work in silence. Only complaining about what they can't get or ain't receiving to other women, and never saying BOO to the one person who can actually get/give what they want. So many women set up their relationships to be that way by assuming they can coast on the societal expectations of what a relationship is 'supposed' to be like, and then wonder why their man isn't being what they want him to be. :rolleyes:

Unexpressed expectations are unfulfilled expectations unless you are damn lucky. Fullstop.
 
Uh, no. My part expects - no, demands reciprocity. That means sometimes I'm a *itch, and he puts up with me. That means sometimes he's an arsehole, and I put up with him. That's reciprocity. I don't have to walk around on eggshells when I have a bad day - I just give him a heads up. He does the same for me. Sometimes we have days where we can't give each other heads up, and we work through it - like mature adults who will be together for life. I expect him to love me. I expect him to demonstrate that he loves me - and to demonstrate it in ways that I have expressed to him I feel loved.

If you go 10 years in a relationship, and don't say boo about nothing, and come up on year ten and you are all in a snit because he ain't doing x and y and z, and yet at no point in those ten years did you open your mouth and tell him - clearly and precisely, with enough conversation to be sure that he understood you - what you wanted/needed - I'm sorry sis, but I've got no sympathy for you. Humans aren't telepathic just yet, and far too many women are willing to 'do' in silence, and just expect him magically one day to look up and realize what she wants him to do. Hmprh. Really? And when has that ever worked?

So, if I haven't expressed an expectation to you, I have no right to be upset when you don't fulfil it. And it doesn't matter WHAT the expectation is, or how 'common' it is.

On the other hand, if I have expressed an expectation to you - and I have gotten your clear agreement - and yet you do not choose to fulfil it - assuming I have requested something that is within your power - NOW, we have an issue.
It could be something on the surface that I can accept (DH don't load the dishwasher how I like, for example). It could be something that I should have noticed before we got married, and it's deep rooted in him (haven't found a negative one yet). He could just be a lazy, unappreciative bastard - and that, now that is grounds to get some outside help for.

Too many women mule through life, love, and work in silence. Only complaining about what they can't get or ain't receiving to other women, and never saying BOO to the one person who can actually get/give what they want. So many women set up their relationships to be that way by assuming they can coast on the societal expectations of what a relationship is 'supposed' to be like, and then wonder why their man isn't being what they want him to be. :rolleyes:

Unexpressed expectations are unfulfilled expectations unless you are damn lucky. Fullstop.
Excellent post, just thanking you twice. ;)
 
Uh, no. My part expects - no, demands reciprocity. That means sometimes I'm a *itch, and he puts up with me. That means sometimes he's an arsehole, and I put up with him. That's reciprocity. I don't have to walk around on eggshells when I have a bad day - I just give him a heads up. He does the same for me. Sometimes we have days where we can't give each other heads up, and we work through it - like mature adults who will be together for life. I expect him to love me. I expect him to demonstrate that he loves me - and to demonstrate it in ways that I have expressed to him I feel loved....

...Too many women mule through life, love, and work in silence. Only complaining about what they can't get or ain't receiving to other women, and never saying BOO to the one person who can actually get/give what they want. So many women set up their relationships to be that way by assuming they can coast on the societal expectations of what a relationship is 'supposed' to be like, and then wonder why their man isn't being what they want him to be. :rolleyes:

Unexpressed expectations are unfulfilled expectations unless you are damn lucky. Fullstop.

Perfection :) This is part of why I feel the way I do about the story. I can't assume there's no reciprocity, b/c we only got 1/2 of the story. I also agree that while we should strive for excellence/perfection- a marriage shouldn't break b/c one member of the team fell short for a spell. The offending partner will sooner or later have to pick up the slack for the other partner- it's the nature of balance and longevity.

Also- I totally agree about expectations- I think a lot of women, settle for convention, whether it's really in their hearts to or not. You don't have to be a bra burning feminist to reject certain messages of gender inequality, or decide to pursue your own happiness/satisfaction in certain areas of your rlp. You just have to be willing to negotiate your own terms. (And obviously have a man willing to negotiate with you). ;)
 
This comment is written by a man from the NYT comments

On one hand, I'm as impressed as the commenters above. On the other hand, I'm thinking about your husband and what an absolute blank he is/was. I'm not sure he deserves you or your kids. I'm married, 52. the father of four kids. I've been unemployed for over a year. Like your husband, my pride is shot, particularly on the breadwinner front. But I would never in a million years blame my wife for that or want out of our relationship. That relationship and the beautiful kids we've created is the one thing I hold onto during these difficult times. I'm able to count them on the positive side of the equation. I'm able to ask myself, "Which would you rather have? A great job, a great career, or a fantastic family?" I answer wholeheartedly, "Family!" And that keeps me holding on and moving forward. Thanks for your essay.

http://community.nytimes.com/commen...8/02/fashion/02love.html?sort=oldest&offset=2

Thanks for sharing this comment- I never went back to read them. It's great he would not have responded to this particular situation in a depressed way. But what about any other life event? This is a specific case. In another situation, if he should suffer from a temporary depression/funk, would that give his wife permission to leave? Or warrant a valid excuse for divorce? I'm sure he has at least one flaw. He may be okay in unemployment but what about loss of a friend, decline in parental health, death of a loved one, injury, becoming sick, or developing a disease?

These are all different kinds of life stressors- and where one may be able to endure one event easily- he may not be able to muster the same strength for a different circumstance.

Whatever his personal weakness is, his wife has, and will have to, put up with it.

I fear a relationship where I'm not allowed to have my moments. I'm human. And I expect the same from a partner. I can try not to respond in really destructive ways- but I can't predict just how I will respond- or what I will respond to. Sometimes being unemployed could be a joy (SAHMing), other times a burden (fired during a recession), etc. The circumstance and my place in life will dictate that. I want to know that should I go through something, I have permission to be human for a moment. And my husband should feel that assurance as well.

The response to stress (barring some exceptions of course) is less important IMHO- than the permission to be a human and even have a response in the first place.

I'm asking/talking out loud sort of- I know you can't speak for him, and he can't answer my ???s :grin:.
 
Perfection :) This is part of why I feel the way I do about the story. I can't assume there's no reciprocity, b/c we only got 1/2 of the story. I also agree that while we should strive for excellence/perfection- a marriage shouldn't break b/c one member of the team fell short for a spell. The offending partner will sooner or later have to pick up the slack for the other partner- it's the nature of balance and longevity.

Also- I totally agree about expectations- I think a lot of women, settle for convention, whether it's really in their hearts to or not. You don't have to be a bra burning feminist to reject certain messages of gender inequality, or decide to pursue your own happiness/satisfaction in certain areas of your rlp. You just have to be willing to negotiate your own terms. (And obviously have a man willing to negotiate with you). ;)

Exactly! For all we know, she came to that state of maturity and 'zen' and connection to her marriage by being the partner who had a very messy affair in the early years of their marriage. She could have gone through - and taken their family through - depression, bipolorism, and the gods know what else. :lachen: So, I don't think that her story indicates that she's been a perfect angel through their whole marriage, and he's always the inconsiderate heel.

It just reflects a certain balance - a certain give and take, and a certain understanding of when a little more give is needed - or required - by your partner, even when they themselves are unable to express their needs.

It that way, I totally understand her initial comparison of her husbands reaction to a tantrum. Most kids aren't having tantrums because they find them fun - they are having them because they are trying to express a need/desire that they don't yet have words to express - assuming they even understand what the need/desire is, themselves. That's why kids usually grow out of tantrums - they become more verbal, and more in touch with their own emotions and the reasons behind them.

Grown folks can get that internally twisty and unable to express it feeling too. We usually react by doing things other than falling on the floor and screaming, but it's based in the same internal emotional confusion. And a good partner should be able to recognize that confusion - and give them time to come to terms with what that emotional confusion is about - and to be able to healthily express it.
 
Exactly! For all we know, she came to that state of maturity and 'zen' and connection to her marriage by being the partner who had a very messy affair in the early years of their marriage. She could have gone through - and taken their family through - depression, bipolorism, and the gods know what else. :lachen: So, I don't think that her story indicates that she's been a perfect angel through their whole marriage, and he's always the inconsiderate heel.

It just reflects a certain balance - a certain give and take, and a certain understanding of when a little more give is needed - or required - by your partner, even when they themselves are unable to express their needs.

It that way, I totally understand her initial comparison of her husbands reaction to a tantrum. Most kids aren't having tantrums because they find them fun - they are having them because they are trying to express a need/desire that they don't yet have words to express - assuming they even understand what the need/desire is, themselves. That's why kids usually grow out of tantrums - they become more verbal, and more in touch with their own emotions and the reasons behind them.

Grown folks can get that internally twisty and unable to express it feeling too. We usually react by doing things other than falling on the floor and screaming, but it's based in the same internal emotional confusion. And a good partner should be able to recognize that confusion - and give them time to come to terms with what that emotional confusion is about - and to be able to healthily express it.

Yes! That is precisely my take on the tantrum comparison- it was a very fitting analogy for her situation.
 
That was a great read....Imagine how many marriages would last long if couples were this patient with the issues each person faces over a life time. We all have crazy things and sometimes these take a while to get through because in some cases it takes a while for us to see that there is a problem, admiting that there is a problem and then sorting it out which may take a few months and sadly some marriages dont seem to live passed/through this struggle hence the high divorce rates. I am not married yet but I hope I can take something from her story should me or my future hubby happen to go through a mad patch like this.....
 
I can't take credit for this, it was from a friend with whom I've been discussing this article....paraphrasing

Life is complicated and full of the unexpected. One can't resort to the "Jerry Springer" response or focus on placing blame. We all make decisions that are "right" for us and our families and we cannot consider how "right" they look. I'm glad to be reminded of the options fight, flee or "duck."
 
I can't take credit for this, it was from a friend with whom I've been discussing this article....paraphrasing

Life is complicated and full of the unexpected. One can't resort to the "Jerry Springer" response or focus on placing blame. We all make decisions that are "right" for us and our families and we cannot consider how "right" they look. I'm glad to be reminded of the options fight, flee or "duck."

Personally, I am saving this article - just in case.
 
So, DH read the article and we had a great conversation about it.

He has a friend who left after 10 years and the guy is fighting his way back into the relationship. This guy could not even explain to DH why he cheated:perplexed

Basically, DH said (and he tells friend) that it's not worth it to "roll the dice" & ruin your marriage/relatoinship over some random chick & then try to fight your way back into your marriage/relationship. The next woman may look good but be a piece of crap person inside OR the type of chick who just wants to ruin someone's relationship/marriage or brag about having been with someone's husband/boyfriend. DH feels that if a person knows that they have a good woman/man, then it's best to stay and work it out rather than start all over with someone new just over a minor blip (not necessarily cheating).

Although it does not seem like the man in the article was cheating, DH was really impressed with the way the woman handled the situation. He did say that might not work for everyone.
 
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What a great story. This woman showed true emotional intelligence, strength and maturity. What a lesson. Thanks for sharing.
 
Thanks for sharing. I (and Im unmarried so take this with a grain of salt) would have reacted totally different. And even still, I hope they were able to have some conversations/therapy to discuss it afterwards to prevent it from happening again
 
I love this Amara!

I am a strong believer in the power of non-resistance :yep:

This is a perfect example of non-resistance...I practice this in my own marriage and with my relationships with coworkers :up:
 
I had problems with the article's slant, although I admire the writer's ability to commit to detach from his issues....
not involving herself in them...
nor probing for new information that
could be destructive before she was ready to hear it,
deflecting his misplaced anger
and acknowledging {in this case his} a basic human need for privacy and space
and focusing on the larger picture including a new business .....midlife... etc
and what was at stake...

I appreciate that she gave a priavate deadline for herself.

the tantrum analogy does not work for me and reducing his issues to that
seemed patronizing....as the tone of the article and might
very well be part of the dynamic that led him to step away..
shrug..
but perhaps that's what she needed to do to distance herself
FYI..some of those kids that hit their mommies...in a tantrum...
grow up to hit their wives or worse.....

But what disturbs me about the article was despite her mantra of
my own personal happiness is my responsibility...was that
her actions seemed pointed toward keeping the family together
...and it should..but..I wished her actions came out of unconditional love for herself
and for him....as an ex-wife and one who looks for stories like this
where issues are worked out...that was missing for me

the article does not convey that..rather ..that she adapted a means of survival
and payoff..he stayed and was humbled.....
it seemed condescending.....tho,I appreciated that she said she had bad days
as well as good and had to weather his stuff...that seemed honest..but,
I longed to hear specific examples of how she was taking responsibility .for her own happiness... since she made that a key point in the article
it seemed to me.... that was wise-wife-dogma-rhetoric
she was more about monitoring him while continuing the family staus quo
as she had before only with a new covert focus on him....
and her hoping this would blow over....which luckily
for her came true

and I would have loved to hear how she was loving him unconditionally ...
I'm not hearing that....her dialogoue and agenda was all about
what can I do to get you to STAY
I'm not negating the importance of that..of course...
but for me ..Kayte.. I longed to hear
what can I do to show you are loved during this diffcult time
some would argue that's what she did with her actions
she got the desired result,no doubt.

her reasoning and her words left me feeling cold
she comes off as the superior and egotistical
in love... BOTH parties are humbled and grateful
don't get that from her..at all
a relationship takes TWO....
and it would have been great to hear her say...
I decided to take a closer look at myself,since we are both
in this marriage....


I am glad that they are having talks..
 
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I read the comments before I read the article. I wasn't so sure how I felt about this, but after reading the article--WOW, now that's a strong woman! I'm definitely going to keep this in mind for the future. :yep:

As for the question of would a man do this? Probably not. I guess that's one of the many burdens of being a woman.

LHCF has taught me so much about marriage and commitment. It's not all roses and wine :lol:. There should be a course on this stuff before two people walk down the aisle.
 
Now as I said before the wife knows her husband better than I ever will. Maybe deep down she knew that he did not really mean what he said.
http://community.nytimes.com/commen...8/02/fashion/02love.html?sort=oldest&offset=2

And I guess this is the question I have about this piece. In the other big thread right now, there's a lot of people saying things like "when he tells you who he is, believe him." Well, in this case, he told her. So is it more like "when he tells you who he is, believe him, unless you know who he is better than he knows himself, then don't"?
 
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