SophieDulce
Well-Known Member
ETA : Sorry I got off topic OP. Hopefully things work out
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Make him feel like a man
- Thread starter Perfexion
- Start date
Layluh
Well-Known Member
This is the only tactic that I used and it worked. I literally just started crying and telling him I didn't know what to do. Normally I hate crying in front of him but I was so stressed out and the tears just started flowing. He finally got a job about 2 months later by the grace of God.
Ok during this long distance dating time, did you witness this providing/business/working man that he was?? How did you all meet? Cause because if ya'll met on the net, he could have duped you as to who he was?
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I don't see a lot of a calls for divorce either. I see a lot of people saying the same thing. Don't put up with this and make him step up to the plate. I agree. There is no point of coddling this man to get him to do what he's already suppose to. Your job is to remind him about his job, supporting the family. If he needs help, so be it. If he needs anti-depressants, get them. If he needs direction, give him sources. But do not start "giving him the big piece of chicken" or other nonsense just to make him feel better.
What will make him feel better is a job and making his own money. If you making money was going to be a problem, then he should've married someone else. JMO.
What will make him feel better is a job and making his own money. If you making money was going to be a problem, then he should've married someone else. JMO.
I thought about that when I was writing my thesis on this, but decided to leave it out. Red Flag as to the dynamics that must have been going on at the time, because first babies for are a big deal for most functioning mature/adult women who made conscious decisions to start a family.
Ivonnovi
Well-Known Member
I say he's exhibiting signs of burnout (from past relationship/experience) and wanted some down-time; AND now depressed because he's not snapping back as fast or sucessfully as he would have liked to. ADD to it he probably is discouraged that he'll never surpass you in income (feeling the weight of being unevenly yoked).
BUT THAT's for him to process, deal with and "lift himself" out of. Not you.
My soon-to-be exBF has similar probs; but I'm not married to him and my kids are grown.
BUT THAT's for him to process, deal with and "lift himself" out of. Not you.
My soon-to-be exBF has similar probs; but I'm not married to him and my kids are grown.
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Supposing this is the case, isn't it very convenient how he ended up with a Black Woman who is making really decent money and had her ish together to experience this break down and burn out of his.
If that's the case then he'll just be like a lot of similarly situated men before him, who can't find useful and creative alternative ways to contribute positively to the family dynamics. He is going to turn the traits HE SOUGHT OUT and now (already is based on the OP's story) make her pay for his inadequacies.
Then if worse comes to worse and they divorce/separate, he can now run back to non-BW with some narrative in his head of how he tried to make it work with his fellow BW, but she was too independent, too strong, not supportive enough, didn't know how to make a man feel like a man, blah, blah, blah...... you know how the story goes.
barbiesocialite
Well-Known Member
perception is everything.
To me, when I read this, I think of it from the standpoint that it's most likely a black woman that would sign-up and ok to be some man's mule.
They do it all the time. White and other women are less likely to be some man's slave. They will leave you or roll out before the engagement is over. You got stacks, prove it. Black women give all this kinda benefit of the doubt, marrying bums and whatnot, then wonder why they get played......just because you have your own and make your own has nada to do with the man, ever. matter of fact, a man should never know how much you are worth or how much you make IMO. none of their business. They need to know that regardless of what I can do, I won't be doing so they need to get on it. There is no other option because the minute a ninja get comfortable with me, I'm not nagging or b*tching, I'm most likely leaving...like most white women and others....every other race of woman knows sex costs $$$. Even in marriage. But BW are quick and the first to call such a woman that holds this as a value system a hooker or heaux. *ye shrug* OP been playing the ride or die role from the gate, now she's tired. But to me it sounds like she set this up for herself as her fate right off the break....IDK, I can't relate to this mindset a lot of--IMO BW--hold, then get mad when a man becomes comfortable with it.chronicity
Well-Known Member
OP, I can't say I blame you for being disenchanted with this situation. It would bug me too. My dad isn't perfect, but one thing I can say is that he stayed working, even if it meant he'd have to drop fries at McDonalds. No job was too good for him and he was a college graduate.
But unfortunately, it's not your husband's bumming behavior that will destroy your marriage. It's the contempt you have for him. Not being in your shoes, I can't say how irreparable your situation is, but I do think something has to give and the reality is that you can only control yourself, not him. Counseling may be in order so you can have an objective 3rd party to bounce ideas off of. I wouldn't recommend venting about this to friends and family because their input will be too biased to be of any use.
Just curious: Is he interested in being a stay-at-home dad? Would you be okay with this arrangement? If he's having a hard time keeping a job, then spending all day with a crying baby might be exactly what he needs to kick him into gear. But hey, maybe he'll be an awesome SHD, which could be a win-win for everybody. You never know.
But unfortunately, it's not your husband's bumming behavior that will destroy your marriage. It's the contempt you have for him. Not being in your shoes, I can't say how irreparable your situation is, but I do think something has to give and the reality is that you can only control yourself, not him. Counseling may be in order so you can have an objective 3rd party to bounce ideas off of. I wouldn't recommend venting about this to friends and family because their input will be too biased to be of any use.
Just curious: Is he interested in being a stay-at-home dad? Would you be okay with this arrangement? If he's having a hard time keeping a job, then spending all day with a crying baby might be exactly what he needs to kick him into gear. But hey, maybe he'll be an awesome SHD, which could be a win-win for everybody. You never know.
DarkJoy
Bent. Not Broken.
Unpopular opinion alert:
Folks are very much keeping away from the term 'divorce' but I'm not gonna. Lived this for a very long time with my exH. I spent years doing what Perfexion is trying. Everything from the co-dependent, to the cheerleader, to the ultimatum wielding *****. No matter the tactic, it would plunge him deeper into his ball-less, emasculated hole.
It becomes unhealthy and it's truly over when you find yourself mothering your husband. Making ultimatums, like he is a child being put on punishment. It jacks up the dynamics in a way that it can never come back to being an actual partnership. The OP is headed down this road.
During my pregnancy (like the OP), I was commuting 50mi a day, pulling over to vomit half the time, with borderline gestational diabetes, until my 38th week because I HAD to. Not even his unborn child would make him step up. I was makin near six figures too--and he couldnt be persuaded to make more than 20k--until I told him it was time to go and to get it together. He doubled his annual income the next year. I threw him out anyway. It was over. There were other issues too but that was the worst.
The thing is--she is not doing this to him. He is doing it to himself. Unless he gets therapy there is nothing to be done. You can not force a man to do what he really doesnt want to or have the heart to.
So, I suggest the OP really consider where she wants to be in 5 years. I decided I didnt want our DD growing up seeing her mother raise a broken man.
Folks are very much keeping away from the term 'divorce' but I'm not gonna. Lived this for a very long time with my exH. I spent years doing what Perfexion is trying. Everything from the co-dependent, to the cheerleader, to the ultimatum wielding *****. No matter the tactic, it would plunge him deeper into his ball-less, emasculated hole.
It becomes unhealthy and it's truly over when you find yourself mothering your husband. Making ultimatums, like he is a child being put on punishment. It jacks up the dynamics in a way that it can never come back to being an actual partnership. The OP is headed down this road.
During my pregnancy (like the OP), I was commuting 50mi a day, pulling over to vomit half the time, with borderline gestational diabetes, until my 38th week because I HAD to. Not even his unborn child would make him step up. I was makin near six figures too--and he couldnt be persuaded to make more than 20k--until I told him it was time to go and to get it together. He doubled his annual income the next year. I threw him out anyway. It was over. There were other issues too but that was the worst.
The thing is--she is not doing this to him. He is doing it to himself. Unless he gets therapy there is nothing to be done. You can not force a man to do what he really doesnt want to or have the heart to.
So, I suggest the OP really consider where she wants to be in 5 years. I decided I didnt want our DD growing up seeing her mother raise a broken man.
DarkJoy
Bent. Not Broken.
Realizing the bolded on my own and in indiv therapy pretty much sealed the deal:
Financial/Economic Abuse
What Is Financial or Economic Abuse?
Financial and economic abuse is a form of domestic violence in which the abuser uses money as a means of controlling his or her partner. Financial and economic abuse is only one tactic that an abuser may use to gain power and dominance over his or her victim.
Full Source
I'd add that a passive-aggressive abuser will do just that--be PA but not give a full-on assault and berate.
Financial/Economic Abuse
What Is Financial or Economic Abuse?
Financial and economic abuse is a form of domestic violence in which the abuser uses money as a means of controlling his or her partner. Financial and economic abuse is only one tactic that an abuser may use to gain power and dominance over his or her victim.
- An abuser may deny his or her partner money. One way this is accomplished may be by forbidding a partner to be employed. If an abuser does permit his or her partner to work, he or she may be required to hand over their paycheck each week to their abuser.
- Many times an abuser will give money to his or her partner. However, it may not be sufficient enough to meet the needs of the individual.
- Many financial and economic abusers will put all of the family bills in their victim’s name. At the same time, the abuser will not allow his or her partner to see bank records, bills or credit records. Many financial and economic abusers are not good with money and he or she will end up destroying the credit of their partners.
- Some economic abusers who require their partners to do illegal acts for money.
[*]Some financial abusers who refuse to work, putting the burden upon their partners to keep the household running. However, money that is brought in by the working victim is mishandled and squandered by the abuser. Then, the victim is berated if bills fall behind.
Full Source
I'd add that a passive-aggressive abuser will do just that--be PA but not give a full-on assault and berate.
happyjourney
New Member
perception is everything.
To me, when I read this, I think of it from the standpoint that it's most likely a black woman that would sign-up and ok to be some man's mule.
I love you for this post.
sunnydaze
Well-Known Member
I'm staying away from the divorce talk, but wanted to agree with everything else in your post b/c I have lived it. My ex was a teacher and a coach the entire time we dated (on and off 4+ years). Two months after we got married, he up and quit his job to start a business, w/o consulting me at all, even though I would have to carry the load in the meantime.. A business that to this day (9 years later) he has yet to get off the ground.
My ex sat by and let the bill collectors call, let his car get repo'd, watched me cry and get depressed..and still didn't get and hold a job. I got him a job through a contact at a temp agency, he walked off the job saying it was beneath him. I unexpectedly got pregnant (bc snafu) w/my daughter..didn't change anything. He would drop me off at work every day, while he supposedly would go look for work, which he wasn't doing..he was going back home and smoking weed. Then the arguments ensued, the screaming, the eventual physical altercations..then me leaving.
My point is this, all the coaxing, nagging, crying, supporting, sexing, silent treatment, praying, "helping"..it will not make a man do what he does not want to do. He has to be inspired on his own to take care of his family, it should be innate regardless of his wife's financial status.
Kudos to the married women here who have a success story uplifting and inspiring their men to do what that are supposed to be doing anyway, but i don't come across many of you in real life. My story is somewhat of an extreme, I just think most women in these situations deal with it and fester away in a pool of resentment.
Middle
Guess who?
Whatever people didn't want to come out and say it but people were definitely implying divorce. Too early for divorce to be on the table. Marriage isn't about having a picture perfect situation, I don't think people can call themselves having a successful marriage until after they've worked through major issues like this one.
OP I think you should listen to the few words of wisdom that have been said, and ignore the rest. Until now you have desired for him to work and provid for you, but you have not yet required him to. I think thats the point some of the ladies are getting at. I think it's difficult for professional women to do this, especially when they command high salaries like yourself. On the surface it just doesn't seem like you need much help, and in truth you are very self sufficient which is good. However, communication is important in all relationship, and it think it's good to be transparent about the stress you're feeling, the worries you have about finances and how this will affect the baby, let him know that you are hurting. No man wants to see the woman he loves hurting. They don't even like to see strangers hurting.
I was talking to my mom, and she said a lot of men just need a push. Every man isn't super ambitious, or brilliant, or self-motivated, but it doesn't make them bad. It sounds like your guy is just a little burnt out.
ETA: I also think people are projecting their own issues with their own marriages or with the dissatisfaction with black men in general on the OP.
OP I think you should listen to the few words of wisdom that have been said, and ignore the rest. Until now you have desired for him to work and provid for you, but you have not yet required him to. I think thats the point some of the ladies are getting at. I think it's difficult for professional women to do this, especially when they command high salaries like yourself. On the surface it just doesn't seem like you need much help, and in truth you are very self sufficient which is good. However, communication is important in all relationship, and it think it's good to be transparent about the stress you're feeling, the worries you have about finances and how this will affect the baby, let him know that you are hurting. No man wants to see the woman he loves hurting. They don't even like to see strangers hurting.
I was talking to my mom, and she said a lot of men just need a push. Every man isn't super ambitious, or brilliant, or self-motivated, but it doesn't make them bad. It sounds like your guy is just a little burnt out.
ETA: I also think people are projecting their own issues with their own marriages or with the dissatisfaction with black men in general on the OP.
barbiesocialite
Well-Known Member
I agree and disagree with this post. Specifically the bolded.
First, I don't think it's the racial issue some folks are trying to make it.: it's not that the mere fact the other woman was white that caused the change in behavior, but the mere fact so many bw insist on playing the strong black woman EVER in life. Who does that? Make someone else pay that ish. Too much pride I tell ya....I do think a lot posts reek of bitterness and ABW syndrome tho
Second, call me Judas or a sellout, but I'm no long suffering martyr. If he can't pay the bills. He won't eat and won't have a place to live. Plain and simple. Everything would have already been in his name or with him as the primary financially responsible party. I would have aborted that baby and moved back to my parents til he figures the sh*t out. Yes, just to prove a point. TBH, I probably would have had the marriage anulled and gotten remarried. Again, yes to prove a point.
Lastly, there's no me making it work. Ninja you make it work. The more I read this story the more I realized this is where my personality deviates from the Zaynab personality (any my mom's as well). They are the flip side of the long-suffering martyr. The winning side. *humph* They are not about to lose their husband or marriage because of something like this. No way, they are going to fight for him and the marriage til they get what they want. (that's technically why my parents are still married). Some women are loyal like that. IMO, this is also what determines longevity in most marriages. Bump that. I'm not above anything. If a man starts slacking, I will take a failure aka divorce and replace him with something better. NEXT.
<--that's why I'm not ready for marriage yet. OP has two choices:
1. Take the gamble and get gone.
2. If the divorce is not an option, stay and work it out. Learn to deal and learn to cope while pushing him forward.
yea, @Mortons you were right about my patience
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sunnydaze
Well-Known Member
I think its easy to be dissmissive of the advice from:
-Those like me who went through it and chose not to make the marriage work.
-Those who have never gone through it and are offering speculative advice.
OP - I think the best advice on this situation will likely come from married women who went through something similar and found a way to come out the other side happy, content and with an intact marriage. I hope some of those women come forward and offer their input.
-Those like me who went through it and chose not to make the marriage work.
-Those who have never gone through it and are offering speculative advice.
OP - I think the best advice on this situation will likely come from married women who went through something similar and found a way to come out the other side happy, content and with an intact marriage. I hope some of those women come forward and offer their input.
chronicity
Well-Known Member
Yes she has, as evident by the ultimatum that she issued to him.
I don't get the suggestions being made that she has enabled him. Where are y'all getting this from? And also, what does "requiring him" to work look like, in practical terms, if this mandate isn't backed by the threat of divorce and/or separation? Boycotting sex? Ignoring him? Withholding affection? All of these consequences sound like a recipe for hell in that household, and I don't think they'd suddenly turn this man into a go-getter. More than likely, shunning him will push him into the arms of someone else and leave the OP in the position of caring for an unemployed cheater. Two stresses for the price of one.
I don't think it's wrong for the OP to consider a separation or divorce if she has realized she's made a mistake in marrying this guy, but this is a decision that needs to be made after some talking and soul searching. From my limited vantage point, this doesn't seem like it is a completely hopeless situation. That said, the longer her resentment continues the less likely they will be able to thrive together. IMO, it's much too early in this relationship for them to be on two different pages regarding their roles and responsibilities to each other, and this is not something she can fix by herself even though, sadly, she only has control over herself.
barbiesocialite
Well-Known Member
not all women are willing to go through it, you did but quit or failed (take your pick). Seems we had similar opinions with less experienced trauma on my end. I think advice from a formerly married but now divorced woman like yourself @sunnydaze is just as valid as those who made it work such as @Zaynab.
FelaShrine
Well-Known Member
I do agree with this esp since if i remember correctly DarkJoy's ex is white. so Im not sure why this became a BM thing and not a typical no-good man thing
DarkJoy
Bent. Not Broken.
Let's not also forget, the previous thread started by the OP, wherein she states other areas of dissatisfaction. Marriage is extraordinarily complicated. It is not just THIS situation. She feels trapped and apparently he is not helping in other areas as well.
You lose respect for them as men, husbands, and providers. It's either a five-year climb to regain respect from him through his positive actions towards correcting his behavior or deciding whether you have the patience to wait that long (thinking of barbie's comments).
Your situation, @sunnydaze was almost exactly like mine (minus the physical abuse at the end). This is a certain type of man and they are very predictable in behavior. Not just from our experiences, but those of my RL friends who've also run from these depressive, non-providing types.
I agree. Like I said before, these consequences are merely like punishing a child. Now the marital dynamics have changed from husband and wife, to mother and son. Good luck on anyone coming back from from that.
Exactly! Call it projection if they like, but when you've been there, you've been there. And as evinced by those of us who have these situations generally does not work out. It also means those of us who are projecting have actual real-life experience like this to draw our advice from. I am certainly not discounting the speculations either. I think those like barbie have real sound advice as well.
You lose respect for them as men, husbands, and providers. It's either a five-year climb to regain respect from him through his positive actions towards correcting his behavior or deciding whether you have the patience to wait that long (thinking of barbie's comments).
Your situation, @sunnydaze was almost exactly like mine (minus the physical abuse at the end). This is a certain type of man and they are very predictable in behavior. Not just from our experiences, but those of my RL friends who've also run from these depressive, non-providing types.
I agree. Like I said before, these consequences are merely like punishing a child. Now the marital dynamics have changed from husband and wife, to mother and son. Good luck on anyone coming back from from that.
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sunnydaze
Well-Known Member
not all women are willing to go through it, you did but quit or failed (take your pick). Seems we had similar opinions with less experienced trauma on my end. I think advice from a formerly married but now divorced woman like yourself @sunnydaze is just as valid as those who made it work such as @Zaynab.
Quit or failed - I'd say both...at the marriage, but not at life
I actually wasn't offering her any advice. My post was moreso a vent, an opp to tell my story and also as an alternate view to some of the "all you have to do is (this)..and then (that) type comments that seem to be taken as truth. There is a thinly veiled view here that somehow if she was more (fill in the blank) and less(fill in the blank), then her husband would be working. Advice more anectodtal than substantive. Life/situations are not that textbook.
Yes some have never been in her shoes and self proclaim..will never, but how does that help her..when she is indeed going through it now. That's why I would like to see posts from women who were in her shoes and won.
chronicity
Well-Known Member
The thing also to consider is that the guy is working, just not working in a high-powered field. So the OP needs to figure out if she's misjudging present conditions due to lingering resentment over old issues (e.g., his bummish behavior prior to the ultimatum) or if she has a legitimate gripe about how he's being now.
Even if the guy is barely earning minimum wage, it's probably too much to expect more from him if his income has always been low and unsteady. Marrying a guy who has never made a ton of money (hence him needing to work 2 jobs in his previous marriage) and then faulting him because he is a substandard wage-earner doesn't make rational sense.
Even if he took on two jobs, will he ever earn enough to make the OP feel safe and secure? Probably not, because their standard of living most likely reflects her income, not his.
I think the OP has buyer's remorse. Not saying her husband is blameless, but I have to wonder if the true issue is deeper than his ambition.
Even if the guy is barely earning minimum wage, it's probably too much to expect more from him if his income has always been low and unsteady. Marrying a guy who has never made a ton of money (hence him needing to work 2 jobs in his previous marriage) and then faulting him because he is a substandard wage-earner doesn't make rational sense.
Even if he took on two jobs, will he ever earn enough to make the OP feel safe and secure? Probably not, because their standard of living most likely reflects her income, not his.
I think the OP has buyer's remorse. Not saying her husband is blameless, but I have to wonder if the true issue is deeper than his ambition.
DarkJoy
Bent. Not Broken.
correct FelaShrine. He is white. So I have no rancor with BM on this topic at all. It's a non-racial issue at least for me.
FelaShrine
Well-Known Member
^Thanks
To those that have been thru this, were the men providers before the wedding....any flags women should look for to avoid such men/situations like that?
To those that have been thru this, were the men providers before the wedding....any flags women should look for to avoid such men/situations like that?
chronicity
Well-Known Member
I had a white ex who, in my mind, was a little too comfortable with me paying for stuff during our relationship. Yes, I made more money, but that doesn't mean gestures like treating me to a nice dinner outing (especially when I'm paying the rent and bills) can be forgotten without that adversely affecting my satisfaction in the relationship. My ex didn't seem to intuitively understand that. He saw it as whomever has the most money pays. That might sound good on paper, but the heart wants what the heart wants. So out he went.
I agree with your previous post; when a mother-son dynamic takes over the relationship, it tends to kill everything. Attraction, respect, and commitment. A father-daughter dynamic is not as deadly because society still programs us to see men as authority figures that women are supposed to follow. Images of femininity track very closely with images of youth. Being a desirable man, in contrast, is incompatible with being child-like and dependent.
And yet a lot of guys don't seem to understand they are being unattractive to women by acting child-like. They don't seem to understand that being a desirable man has more to do with how they act rather than what they are. It's almost as though they judge themselves by the standards they judge women by (e.g., looks are of utmost importance), and are surprised to learn that no, this isn't so.
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