Do you think black men as a group are as loyal to black women as we are to them?

[mischka]

Girl, please. You know you one of those black women who ALWAYS throwing their degrees up in a black man's face. Miss Independent, "I don't need no man!" You think you too good, don't you? I bet you like white men too.

unh unh, i'm too busy crossing the street before he gets a chance to yell any more questions at me.

 

[SmileyNY]

This board confuses me.

One day, we worship the Black kangs and the next day we don't have enough faith in them or worship them enough.

 

[Syrah]

In a nutshell, the ENTIRE black community is broken. If we are going to talk about fixing this issue (which is the response I gave that you quoted), black women need to work on themselves. In order to fix others, you must first fix yourself.

If that is hard to follow, and/or understand that I give up.

Why do we interpret the notion that we have to work on ourselves as an assault on who we are?

Why are we so defensive? Life is all about self-improvement.

When I came home whining about yet another bad date, my dad did "you're beautiful baby! Any man should be lucky to have you! The right guy will come along" for about 5 minutes and then looked me dead in the eye and asked me "well, Syrah, would you want to date you?".



We all need to ask ourselves these questions. Would WE want to date ourselves?

 

[Syrah]

the feeling is mutual tbqh

or more like




speak for yourself. i'm 24. i have no out of wedlock children. i have an advanced degree from a prestigious university. i support myself. i am fit and healthy. i am emotionally well adjusted. i don't need any 'fixing up.'

Hold up a second.

Take a step back. Would you want to date that??? ^^^^^^

In theory it sounds fantastic. How its presented, on the other hand, leaves much to be desired...

And that's just it. How many black women out there who have good careers, great educations, their own homes and cars, who are fit without children, are single wondering why? They are the total package, but no man wants to keep it.

No man wants to compete with his support system...He shouldn't have to. If you feel you have to defend your accomplishments to a man, you're with the wrong man...

 

[snillohsss]

What's with the sarcasm? Anywho, I agree the black community is broken. But I don't agree that women should fix the problem (lack of loyalty, IR relationships, single parenthood, etc.) for men or by themselves. I can do what I need to do but that isn't going to change the actions of someone else. Besides, you should fix yourself (or black women in this case) for our own good not to manipulate others into doing what we want.

What I wrote wasn't sarcastic? I mean not even in the LEAST! You are completely on the defense for no reason.

 

[snillohsss]

Why do we interpret the notion that we have to work on ourselves as an assault on who we are?

Why are we so defensive? Life is all about self-improvement.

When I came home whining about yet another bad date, my dad did "you're beautiful baby! Any man should be lucky to have you! The right guy will come along" for about 5 minutes and then looked me dead in the eye and asked me "well, Syrah, would you want to date you?".



We all need to ask ourselves these questions. Would WE want to date ourselves?

I should stop posting and just agree with all your posts!

 

[lushcoils]

So what do black women in general need to fix that will make bm loyal to us?

 

[SmileyNY]

Hold up a second.

Take a step back.

Would you want to date that??? ^^^^^^

In theory it sounds fantastic. How its presented, on the other hand, leaves much to be desired...

And that's just it. How many black women out there who have good careers, great educations, their own homes and cars, who are fit without children, are single wondering why? They are the total package, but no man wants to keep it.

No man wants to compete with his support system...He shouldn't have to. If you feel you have to parade and defend your accomplishments to a man, you're with the wrong man...

I'd date that and I'm completely straight Just because you have great accomplishments doesn't automatically mean that you "parade and defend" them to a man.

I agree that it's wrong to make a man feel like you don't need him... at the end of the day humans are animals and the male instinct is to provide... however, I don't think that translates to a woman having to be ashamed of being proud of her accomplishments.

 

[snillohsss]

edited--didn't even need to be addressed

 

[mischka]

Hold up a second.

Take a step back.

Would you want to date that??? ^^^^^^

In theory it sounds fantastic. How its presented, on the other hand, leaves much to be desired...

And that's just it. How many black women out there who have good careers, great educations, their own homes and cars, who are fit without children, are single wondering why? They are the total package, but no man wants to keep it.

No man wants to compete with his support system...He shouldn't have to. If you feel you have to parade and defend your accomplishments to a man, you're with the wrong man...

this is really irrelevant to me, bc i really don't care whether black men want to date me or not. as i mentioned earlier, i don't verbalize this to potential suitors bc once you are dating men who have a similar resume, there is no need to. i said it in this post specifically in response to the claim that bw 'need fixing up', not having anything to do with who wants to date who or why. my life is in order. it has nothing to do with 'would you want to date yourself.'

it seems like for some women in this post, their whole opinion on the matter is colored by the ultimate goal of 'bagging' a black man. that is not on my agenda, so any thoughts i have on the opinion of black loyalty or obligation are entirely irrelevant to dating black men.

 

[BEAUTYU2U]

Would you want to date that???

No man wants to compete with his support system...He shouldn't have to. If you feel you have to parade and defend your accomplishments to a man, you're with the wrong man...

I ain't left yet but ....

If I'm not mistaken, a hear a lot of BM say this is what they want in a woman. Someone educated, who isn't a golddigger or have children from previous relationships, not overweight/obese and not crazy. So you should have the accomplishments but not talk about them?

@ snilloh - I'm not being defensive. What would I be defensive about? You said you should just "copy and paste" everything you write. I read your posts, I wasn't asking you to repeat your prior responses.

 

[snillohsss]

I ain't left yet but ....

If I'm not mistaken, a hear a lot of BM say this is what they want in a woman. Someone educated, who isn't a golddigger or have children from previous relationships, not overweight/obese and not crazy. So you should have the accomplishments but not talk about them?

@ snilloh - I'm not being defensive. What would I be defensive about? You said you should just "copy and paste" everything you write. I read your posts, I wasn't asking you to repeat your prior responses.

I didn't say that to be sarcastic. I said that because the same thing could be applied to your post as well as other posts.

 

[lushcoils]

Again, so what are the issues that black women need to work on?

 

[Syrah]

I ain't left yet but ....

If I'm not mistaken, a hear a lot of BM say this is what they want in a woman. Someone educated, who isn't a golddigger or have children from previous relationships, not overweight/obese and not crazy. So you should have the accomplishments but not talk about them?

@ snilloh - I'm not being defensive. What would I be defensive about? You said you should just "copy and paste" everything you write. I read your posts, I wasn't asking you to repeat your prior responses.

I don't think its confusing.

Your accomplishments should dictate the type of men you pursuit and allow to pursuit you. Otherwise, mismatched motivations are going to require real and regular concessions. So if you've got an advanced degree and he just barely graduated college - even if educated by the school of hard knocks and successful just the same - there are going to be different types of discipline on display. Recognize that you (hypothetical) made that choice and are going to have to make concessions accordingly. You made the conscious choice so you've now lost the ability to throw his lack of education in his face when the chips are down....

Accomplishments shouldn't be a weapon. And they should not be used as a point of competition - unless its open competition that you both use to inspire and motivate (my friend and her husband wanted to buy a house, so they did a race to $100K - she won but in the end, they both won because they had $178K to put down on a home).

In other words, what you achieved shouldn't be used to hurt.

"I've got my own car, my own crib, my own money - what do you have" - is a threat. "My house, my rules" - is a threat. "I'm a reflection of what you are and vice versa" - is motivation.

There's a clear and obvious difference.

 

[BEAUTYU2U]

Again, so what are the issues that black women need to work on?

*parks ride, grabs popcorn*

 

[snillohsss]

Again, so what are the issues that black women need to work on?

The first one is (copying from Syrah) that we shouldn't interpret the notion that we have to work on ourselves as an assault on who we are? Until that issue can be worked on, I don't see how we could move forward.

Because you know lushcoils what would happen if I even listed one or two things.

 

[snillohsss]

I don't think its confusing.

Your accomplishments should dictate the type of men you pursuit and allow to pursuit you. Otherwise, mismatched motivations are going to require real and regular concessions. So if you've got an advanced degree and he just barely graduated college - even if educated by the school of hard knocks and successful just the same - there are going to be different types of discipline on display. Recognize that you (hypothetical) made that choice and are going to have to make concessions accordingly. You made the conscious choice so you've now lost the ability to throw his lack of education in his face when the chips are down....

Accomplishments shouldn't be a weapon. And they should not be used as a point of competition - unless its open competition that you both use to inspire and motivate (my friend and her husband wanted to buy a house, so they did a race to $100K - she won but in the end, they both won because they had $178K to put down on a home).

In other words, what you achieved shouldn't be used to hurt.

"I've got my own car, my own crib, my own money - what do you have" - is a threat. "My house, my rules" - is a threat. "I'm a reflection of what you are and vice versa" - is motivation.

There's a clear and obvious difference.

I wish they had an applause smiley.

 

[BEAUTYU2U]

I don't think its confusing.

Your accomplishments should dictate the type of men you pursuit and allow to pursuit you. Otherwise, mismatched motivations are going to require real and regular concessions. So if you've got an advanced degree and he just barely graduated college - even if educated by the school of hard knocks and successful just the same - there are going to be different types of discipline on display. Recognize that you (hypothetical) made that choice and are going to have to make concessions accordingly. You made the conscious choice so you've now lost the ability to throw his lack of education in his face when the chips are down....

Accomplishments shouldn't be a weapon. And they should not be used as a point of competition - unless its open competition that you both use to inspire and motivate (my friend and her husband wanted to buy a house, so they did a race to $100K - she won but in the end, they both won because they had $178K to put down on a home).

In other words, what you achieved shouldn't be used to hurt.

"I've got my own car, my own crib, my own money - what do you have" - is a threat. "My house, my rules" - is a threat. "I'm a reflection of what you are and vice versa" - is motivation.

There's a clear and obvious difference.

Well, I can't speak for her but that's not what I got from her post at all. I would never want to throw my accomplishments in someone's face. I'm just saying you shouldn't be made to feel ashamed for taking care of business. Also, I understand what you mean about getting someone who is "on your level" but I think this conflicts with the ever-present ideology that black women should "lower their standards" because every black man is not gonna be a corporate attorney making six figures, blah blah, etc. So if we "settle" by picking a man we love, not a resume we love, then we can't speak of our life accomplishments? Again, that's confusing.

 

[tatiana]

Hear me out before stoning me with my unpopular post...

One way BW can improve their relationships with BM is to improve the relationship she has with her father, if possible. The relationship one has with their opposite sex parent influences that person's relationship with the opposite sex.

I was one of the women who used to only date outside my race because I did not like BM because I thought they did not like me. The truth of the matter I felt that way because I thought my father did not like me. When that relationship improve, my feelings towards BM improve.

I have noticed BW that have great relationships with their fathers have great relationships with BM.

In regards to BW and their degrees and success, when you are a 20something year old you feel at the top of world and you in your career and you will never get old. However you will get old and in 5, 10, 15 years, you will realize that a college degree can not hug you.

 

[mischka]

"I've got my own car, my own crib, my own money - what do you have" - is a threat. "My house, my rules" - is a threat. "I'm a reflection of what you are and vice versa" - is motivation.

this is only a threat when you are with someone who isn't on the same level as you. it's revealing that this should even be considered general advice, which implies that black women are resigned to or regularly date men who, as a rule, have and are expected to have fewer accomplishments

 

[originalone]

I don't know, this guy on a dating sight had me thinking otherwise. On his site he has "No white women please". We eventually ended up talking over the phone and he explained his reasons. He said he only dates black women because he values his mom, sisters and aunts too much. He belives the black woman is beautiful he refuses to date outside his race. He said black men have taken this "sisters are too much" attitude when all they really need to do is "man up" his words. He says until the foundation of the black family is strong and we build good loving homes for our kids to see we are going to always struggle. I was surprised....but that was just one man. so I don't know.....

 

[BEAUTYU2U]

I have noticed BW that have great relationships with their fathers have great relationships with BM.

In regards to BW and their degrees and success, when you are a 20something year old you feel at the top of world and you in your career and you will never get old. However you will get old and in 5, 10, 15 years, you will realize that a college degree can not hug you.

I don't think your opinion is unpopular at all. I agree with all of it.

The first part though is another "what came first" situation. If a black daughter does not have a good relationship with her father, is that her fault or the fault of a parent who failed? Will this define her future relationships with men or can she move past the first, most important relationship with a man?

 

[AnjelLuvs]

tatiana, how do you suggest this... I don't have a relationship with either parent... Ahhh, man back into lurkdom, just call me cant get right

 

[snillohsss]

Hear me out before stoning me with my unpopular post...

One way BW can improve their relationships with BM is to improve the relationship she has with her father, if possible. The relationship one has with their opposite sex parent influences that person's relationship with the opposite sex.

I was one of the women who used to only date outside my race because I did not like BM because I thought they did not like me. The truth of the matter I felt that way because I thought my father did not like me. When that relationship improve, my feelings towards BM improve.

I have noticed BW that have great relationships with their fathers have great relationships with BM.

In regards to BW and their degrees and success, when you are a 20something year old you feel at the top of world and you in your career and you will never get old. However you will get old and in 5, 10, 15 years, you will realize that a college degree can not hug you.

No stoning here. I have said that exact thing in another post once. I totally agree with you.

In some cases that isn't possible as you said. I think the black mother's who have young daughters and the father's are not in their lives, I believe it is the mother's responsibility to ensure her daughter has a positive black male role model in her life. In reality, it starts with the children because it is too hard to change the thinking of adults.

 

[mischka]

No stoning here. I have said that exact thing in another post once. I totally agree with you.

In some cases that isn't possible as you said. I think the black mother's who have young daughters and the father's are not in their lives, I believe it is the mother's responsibility to ensure her daughter has a positive black male role model in her life. In reality, it starts with the children because it is too hard to change the thinking of adults.

but the father has no responsibility to ensure he is a presence in his daughter's life

 

[Syrah]

Again, so what are the issues that black women need to work on?

You asked...

Being more selective about the men we date and mate with. Self Explanatory. Recognizing that if we make a decision to date a man with mismatched motivations or aspirations that this is a choice that we make and that this type of relationship will require concessions. I don't care if he's a street wise billionaire and you're an educated six-figure diva. There will be differences in discipline and process. You chose this.

Caring about our physical health and well being. Too many of us are overweight. I would love it if one day, Lane Bryant wasn't able to focus its foundational strategy (non-growth) on certain geographic segments of the black community.

Focusing on our mental health and self appreication. Knowing that flaws and all, we are beautiful, strong individuals, worthy of and deserving love. Without this, a relationship will fail. In a relationship context, a man shouldn't have to convince you that you're worth loving, while trying to love you. That's too much work.

Knowing and becoming clear about what we stand to offer the world and bring to a relationship. Not in terms of material possessions and academic/professional achievements but more about who we are, what we stand for, what we believe in and what we choose to commit ourselves to. In terms of a relationship - What do we have to offer a man? What do we KNOW unequivocally without a doubt about ourselves that we know any man would love and appreciate because we love and appreciate it about ourselves? At 18, before I left for college, my dad made me write a list of things that I love about myself that a man would love about me. At 25 he had me re-write it. Since then, I've continually updated this list. I know what I have to offer and these things have nothing to do with academics or what's on my business cards.

And most importantly - Believing in our men.And I mean truly believing in our men. At the core, I think any "good" (varying definitions apply) man wants to be believed in. Put in a pretty package. Cool. With an education, career, aspirations and motivations. Awesome. In a package that can navigate his various social and professional worlds. Fantastic. But without the basic willingness to support and believe in him, it's not going to work over the long haul. We will give our numbers to men we don't believe in. We will sleep with a man before we will look him in the eye and tell him that we believe in him and support him. This is backwards.

 

[MzLady78]

I don't think your opinion is unpopular at all. I agree with all of it.

The first part though is another "what came first" situation. If a black daughter does not have a good relationship with her father, is that her fault or the fault of a parent who failed? Will this define her future relationships with men or can she move past the first, most important relationship with a man?

I just had this convo with my own father. He said that as the parent, he should have tried harder.

I honestly believe not having a father around was really, really damaging to me. I already had self-confidence issues because I was an awkward teenager, so feeling rejected by my own father was devastating. I had NO positive male figures in my life growing up. Not one.

 

[snillohsss]

but the father has no responsibility to ensure he is a presence in his daughter's life

seriously?

I stated that in some cases it isn't possible. The mother could have met and procreated with a loser. The man left. The reality of that situation is that THERE IS STILL A CHILD TO RAISE TO ADULTHOOD.

As a mother, who should she focus on? Raising her daughter as a healthy black woman? OR should she focus on the fact that the man should ensure a presence in his daughters life.

Lawd.....

 

[BEAUTYU2U]

I just had this convo with my own father. He said that as the parent, he should have tried harder.

I honestly believe not having a father around was really, really damaging to me. I already had self-confidence issues because I was an awkward teenager, so feeling rejected by my own father was devastating. I had NO positive male figures in my life growing up. Not one.

I hear you on this. My father was present but we don't have a good relationship. Luckily, I have a great uncle in my life.

 

[mischka]

seriously?

I stated that in some cases it isn't possible. The mother could have met and procreated with a loser. The man left. The reality of that situation is that THERE IS STILL A CHILD TO RAISE TO ADULTHOOD.

As a mother, who should she focus on? Raising her daughter as a healthy black woman? OR should she focus on the fact that the man should ensure a presence in his daughters life.

Lawd.....

under what circumstances is it 'possible' aka excusable for a man not to take responsibility for his child? after all, said child would not exist without the man's active participation ipso facto both parties bear equal responsibility, not 'the woman should be responsible for not only her part but his part too.'

i think it's really backwards to say the blame for a man doing or not doing something is on a woman, instead of the man who makes those choices himself that's hilarious, like, that's crazy talk in my opinion, i can't do anything but laugh at that the choices somebody makes ARE FIRST AND PRIMARILY THE RESPONSIBILITY OR FAULT OF THAT PERSON, and can only, by definition, secondarily be the fault of an external person

i think it's funny that for someone that wants to 'fix' the problems in the black community, you appear to bear many opinions and philosophies that help contribute to the whole problem of the irresponsible black man-child that causes most of these issues. i'm not surprised though because ironically this is usually the case. like chris rock said, i feel sorry for the women who have to choose a husband from this bunch