Update: He Stroked Her Hand.

[hopeful]

This thread has really resonated with me. What I finally realized is that I USED to be very black and white in my thinking because of the examples I had in my life. I.e, The good dad and the good husband. A man can be either, neither or both but that didn't solidly click with me until the past year. My intuition got stronger as I got stronger. My wisdom improved as I began to work on myself.

A man can be perfectly in to you and attentive and meanwhile be sleeping with someone else and lying about it. A man can be generous to you and to someone else. A man can make you think you didn't see anything, but you clearly did. A man can be apologetic when caught and not had an ounce of remorse. A man can promise you the moon and stars, but what do his actions say? The thing is, once they tell the first lie, they have no problem continuing the lies. I'm not calling anyone out but myself. This is one of the painful parts of my past that I had to reconcile.

This is such a beautiful post. Thank you for writing this out. To be safe in this world you have to truly and deeply love yourself, trust your gut instincts, and be able to think critically.

Black and white thinking will get you got. Most people and situations are both/and, not either/or. We must learn to think in shades of gray, not black and white. Humans are gray. Very few are angels or demons. So you have to really get that. Yes a man can make beautiful love to you, sweet talk you, pay the bills, and be lying and cheating without an ounce of guilt or remorse. But like some of the ladies said already, we just know something is wrong, something is off.

Keep in mind:
•Love yourself unconditionally, take good care of yourself first and foremost
•Trust your gut instincts
•Learn to think critically, in shades of gray, accept that black and white thinking will get you got.

 

[hopeful]

OP thank you for starting this thread. It has kicked off some good dialogue. I wish you the best. Forgive us as we continue to discuss. At this stage your thread is taking on a life of its own. Please don't take offense to anything we say moving forward. What we share is going to help another woman. What you've shared, your thread, is helping other people.

I wanted to add that it is so important that we allow ourselves to be angry. Awhile back a poster told someone stay mad sis. Our society loves to dismiss women's intuition and to reprimand us for expressing anger. Anger expressed well and acted upon is a beautiful thing.

We do not have to be nice all of the time. Oftentimes we need to be angry, say our peace or not, and make necessary changes without apology or explanation. We only get one life to live and it is precious. Anger is a sign to us, a gut reaction, that something is wrong, a boundary has been crossed, we are being disrespected. Where we go wrong is forgiving too quickly or trying to change the other person, instead of accepting that we must remove ourselves from an ugly situation or relationship.

 

[quirkydimples]

*If you don't mind saying...

How long did you stay after that? How did you get the courage to leave what "seemed" to be the "perfect" situation?

I eventually found "proof," and stayed another two years because our son was so young. When I found out that not only had he not stopped cheating, but he was also messing with my money...I was out.

What's really messed up is that we were actively trying to have a second kid (because things were "better" right) and I now realize he knew he'd be caught again and was trying to trap me.

To answer your question: I found the courage when he started messing with my money. I realized that my life was getting worse and worse and was not going to get any better. Also, I had done everything in my power to save the marriage (counseling, etc.). I walked away quickly and my life is sooooo much better now.

A funny aside: He's a minister now.

A not so funny aside: He never sees our son...or calls him.

 

[lana]

I'm married, I walked into the gas strain today and this guy with his girlfriend (her back was turned) eyed me up and down like I was a snack. Staining to watch me walk away, then insisting that I cut in line.
(I'm just in a shirt and jeans, no cleavage, nothing tight.)
I ignored him.
Then he leans over and kisses his girlfriend. She never even knew.

It's up to us to notice their behavior and find out real motives.

On the flip side, in life I've kicked feet, legs, accidentally hit butts with the back of my hand (so embarrassing/gross!)when people squeeze by and my back was turned...and I shriek or apologize every time.

 

[quirkydimples]

Posts like this right here are why I have a love/hate relationship with the relationship forum.

I love that people feel comfortable sharing their experiences, especially the ones like these that are so painful, so that others can learn from them.

But on the flip side, how do us single women read stuff like the bolded and not just be like "yo, ninjas ain't , I'm good?" I mean, damn. That's a whole 'nother level as far as cheating goes. Wedding plans?

Not particularly looking for an answer, just more so thinking out loud because this blew my mind.

I understand. Over the last several years, I've done a lot of self work and work in therapy. Really, what @hopeful said already sums up how you keep going:

Keep in mind:
•Love yourself unconditionally, take good care of yourself first and foremost
•Trust your gut instincts
•Learn to think critically, in shades of gray, accept that black and white thinking will get you got.

And this...

Our society loves to dismiss women's intuition and to reprimand us for expressing anger. Anger expressed well and acted upon is a beautiful thing.

We do not have to be nice all of the time. Oftentimes we need to be angry, say our peace or not, and make necessary changes without apology or explanation. We only get one life to live and it is precious. Anger is a sign to us, a gut reaction, that something is wrong, a boundary has been crossed, we are being disrespected. Where we go wrong is forgiving too quickly or trying to change the other person, instead of accepting that we must remove ourselves from an ugly situation or relationship.

 

[kanozas]

I eventually found "proof," and stayed another two years because our son was so young. When I found out that not only had he not stopped cheating, but he was also messing with my money...I was out.

What's really messed up is that we were actively trying to have a second kid (because things were "better" right) and I now realize he knew he'd be caught again and was trying to trap me.

To answer your question: I found the courage when he started messing with my money. I realized that my life was getting worse and worse and was not going to get any better. Also, I had done everything in my power to save the marriage (counseling, etc.). I walked away quickly and my life is sooooo much better now.

A funny aside: He's a minister now.

A not so funny aside: He never sees our son...or calls him.

He needs to be exposed to his synod/community. I can bet he's doing the same there. Besides that, abandoning a child/wife is worse than being an infidel. That's in scripture. Smh. Who on earth could he ever minister to?

 

[quirkydimples]

He needs to be exposed to his synod/community. I can bet he's doing the same there. Besides that, abandoning a child/wife is worse than being an infidel. That's in scripture. Smh.

I have no idea where he lives or where his church is.

I only know he's a minister because he's sent me pictures of his paperwork talking about he couldn't have done it without me and our son. Sociopath.

If he really is a minister - and everything he says is questionable - I'm sure he's got another roster of women who think they're the only one. Maybe even a new family by now. Gotta have that picture perfect famiy; especially as a minister. And I wouldn't be surprised if he was stealing from the church. He thinks he's smarter than everyone. Again...sociopath.

I'm not sure I would say anything if I knew where he was. People only listen when they're ready. Can't tell them anything before that.

 

[hopeful]

Right @quirkydimples
And your number one focus has to be on you and your son.

 

[ArrrBeee]

I eventually found "proof," and stayed another two years because our son was so young. When I found out that not only had he not stopped cheating, but he was also messing with my money...I was out.

What's really messed up is that we were actively trying to have a second kid (because things were "better" right) and I now realize he knew he'd be caught again and was trying to trap me.

To answer your question: I found the courage when he started messing with my money. I realized that my life was getting worse and worse and was not going to get any better. Also, I had done everything in my power to save the marriage (counseling, etc.). I walked away quickly and my life is sooooo much better now.

A funny aside: He's a minister now.

A not so funny aside: He never sees our son...or calls him.

Thanks for sharing and I'm sorry that you had to experience that. I'm glad that you're life is better.

This is such a beautiful post. Thank you for writing this out. To be safe in this world you have to truly and deeply love yourself, trust your gut instincts, and be able to think critically.

Keep in mind:
•Love yourself unconditionally, take good care of yourself first and foremost
•Trust your gut instincts
•Learn to think critically, in shades of gray, accept that black and white thinking will get you got.

@hopeful

I experienced verbal and emotional abuse in my marriage. You have to be very careful after you come out of that type of situation because you leave so broken that a whiff of good treatment is enough. All they have to do is treat you slightly better than the last man. More than likely, your self esteem has been chipped away and you can be easily manipulated. It isn't likely that you know how to do any of the bulleted items. I know that I didn't. Thank you for highlighting them.

It's a catch 22 because you need to date so that you can get to know different types of men, but at the same time, if you aren't healed, you can end up with the same partner-different name.

Having a broken engagement has really shaken me to the core. I've felt humiliation, anger, hurt and so much more. The flip side is us getting back together was one of the best things that could have happened to me. It helped me to think in shades of gray.

As I was looking at cake toppers, I wanted one that said, "It was always you". Something that symbolized us coming back together and it being great. God showed me that it was never him. He came back into my life for me to learn this last piece, not to be my husband.


@MzLady78

I agree. It is discouraging to hear these stories but you have to remember that there are still good men out there. As you sharpen your intuition, the bums will stand out like sore thumbs. When you hear and see their deception, you will recognize it and send them on their way. Stay encouraged and stay woke.

 

[hopeful]

And also @MzLady78
There are also lots of shady women manipulating and playing good men too. Men just don't talk as openly about being played and people also aren't as sympathetic toward men. All men aren't bad and villains. All women aren't innocent victims. Again, shades of gray. Psycho/sociopathic women are even better at hiding their shadiness than men. The more healed, strategic, and wise you are the less attractive you are to these dark souls. But if you are naive, unhealed, desperate for love, etc. that is a guarantee to get played.

And I agree with @ArrrBeee without healing ladies will fall for the first guy that pays her attention and "appears" to be better than the previous guy.

 

[C@ssandr@]

**unpopular opinion alert**

Op, if you like this guy, but have become less interested, then I say keep him around while you date others. There's 2 reasons I suggest this:

1) if you know its not gonna go anywhere use him for kicks...if and only if the "kicks" are worth it to you. There's a chance he's gonna continue to act perfect because he got an ace in the hole. Use that to your advantage until you're tired of him. I only advise this if you are feeling him less than you were before.

2) I have a strong intuition about men. After they touch me (if I let them), I will literally dream about who they are/intentions. Those who know what I'm talking about know that intuition gets stronger with experience. When I was younger, I used to 2nd guess myself until I got tired of walking into mine fields . I seemed crazy back then, but that experience actually served me well. But now, when I get my gut feeling, its strong...and I now know when to jump ship w/o the 2nd guessing.

My point is that at some point you may get the evidence you need. I'm not suggesting that you look for it, but getting that confirmation will help you learn your lesson, if you can manage to avoid the drama.

If the potential cheating/swinging is a deal breaker for you then use his time, money, etc until you've landed the guy you want or have gotten tired. Not every guy in your rotation needs to be a dime...he just needs to be giving you something worthwhile.

This should go without saying but just in case: Continue to date, esp since he's untrustworthy and is not your man!

 

[FelaShrine]

aint unpopular over here lol. Completely agree especially with #1

 

[hopeful]

aint unpopular over here lol. Completely agree especially with #1

Right! @keyawarren is encouraging her to keep him around so long as she sees him for who he is and doesn't get caught up. You can get a lot from a man when you don't care about him and aren't caught up. You can learn their tricks. And maybe even get a little pay back. I'm not above seeking revenge either. Like anger it can be healing so long as it doesn't consume you. Get money. Get dates. Just keep protecting yourself, your heart, and your body. Self first.

 

[kanozas]

I have no idea where he lives or where his church is.

I only know he's a minister because he's sent me pictures of his paperwork talking about he couldn't have done it without me and our son. Sociopath.

If he really is a minister - and everything he says is questionable - I'm sure he's got another roster of women who think they're the only one. Maybe even a new family by now. Gotta have that picture perfect famiy; especially as a minister. And I wouldn't be surprised if he was stealing from the church. He thinks he's smarter than everyone. Again...sociopath.

I'm not sure I would say anything if I knew where he was. People only listen when they're ready. Can't tell them anything before that.

If he is in a position of leadership, any such knowledge by anyone should behoove them to relay suspicions and proofs to prevent religious abuse. For any lurkers, if you know of such anywhere, don't stand with secrets, speak on it, even anonymously. Just curious, how did he avoid arrest for bigamy?

 

[DarkJoy]

I'm always down for this.

**unpopular opinion alert**

Op, if you like this guy, but have become less interested, then I say keep him around while you date others. There's 2 reasons I suggest this:

1) if you know its not gonna go anywhere use him for kicks...if and only if the "kicks" are worth it to you. There's a chance he's gonna continue to act perfect because he got an ace in the hole. Use that to your advantage until you're tired of him. I only advise this if you are feeling him less than you were before.

2) I have a strong intuition about men. After they touch me (if I let them), I will literally dream about who they are/intentions. Those who know what I'm talking about know that intuition gets stronger with experience. When I was younger, I used to 2nd guess myself until I got tired of walking into mine fields . I seemed crazy back then, but that experience actually served me well. But now, when I get my gut feeling, its strong...and I now know when to jump ship w/o the 2nd guessing.

My point is that at some point you may get the evidence you need. I'm not suggesting that you look for it, but getting that confirmation will help you learn your lesson, if you can manage to avoid the drama.

If the potential cheating/swinging is a deal breaker for you then use his time, money, etc until you've landed the guy you want or have gotten tired. Not every guy in your rotation needs to be a dime...he just needs to be giving you something worthwhile.

This should go without saying but just in case: Continue to date, esp since he's untrustworthy and is not your man!

 

[quirkydimples]

If he is in a position of leadership, any such knowledge by anyone should behoove them to relay suspicions and proofs to prevent religious abuse. For any lurkers, if you know of such anywhere, don't stand with secrets, speak on it, even anonymously. Just curious, how did he avoid arrest for bigamy?

As I said in an earlier post, I don't know where he is...and I'm not trying to find out. My energy is spent thinking about and being grateful for all the good in my life since I left and the good to come. As @hopeful said earlier, I also have to focus on my son. Those are my top priorities: my son and me.

I have people in my family who seem upset that I am not bitter against him and all men; people who don't understand why I'm not angry. I was hurt and angry at one point (as was natural), but what good is it carrying that around? Looking to get "even.?" I don't even hate him; that takes too much energy.

Someone once said (and I'm too lazy to google it): the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. I'm indifferent to him.

As for bigamy, I think you misunderstood my post. He made plans to marry at least one of the women, but never actually went through. He ghosted her after meeting her parents, choosing a venue and helping put together a list of attendees (I saw this through his email which I had gained access to...the "proof" I mentioned earlier).

I understand what you're saying about outing him, but my peace of mind at this point will not have me seeking to find him for any reason at all. I'm also not willing to put my safety at risk. Anyone willing to do all that he did (and I haven't shared the half of what I eventually uncovered) is not well and I want no parts of it.

 

[Black Ambrosia]

@quirkydimples I apologize for getting in your business but are you getting child support? The way you talk about not knowing where he is makes me think you may not be. If you aren't, please take action on this. He can't skip out on his financial obligation unless you let him.

 

[Black Ambrosia]

When I said "wasn't no damn ornament", he was in agreement with me like yeah, sounds fishy. But as my guy laughed it off... I guess best friend picked it up as a silly mistake. But he didn't see what I saw. So he was able to brush it off more easily. I didn't make a scene or ask any questions cause I usually just bounce without discussion, but for the rest of the night ole girl seemed to be checking to see if I was bothered by it. I maintained my cool.

What was she doing exactly? Was she asking you if you were okay repeatedly or were these suspicious glances? If she said something, how did your guy and her boyfriend respond?

 

[quirkydimples]

@quirkydimples I apologize for getting in your business but are you getting child support? The way you talk about not knowing where he is makes me think you may not be. If you aren't, please take action on this. He can't skip out on his financial obligation unless you let him.

I knew where he worked before he became a minister so I do get some child support, although it's gone down since he's changed careers.

I don't need a dime from him, though.

Since he's left I've gotten two promotions and have almost doubled my yearly salary.
My life got better almost immediately after he was gone and it continues to do so.

I know he has a financial obligation, but...meh...don't need it and even if I did, it's not enough to make a difference...and I'm sure he'll eventually find a way to weasel out of it.

 

[quirkydimples]

OP I'm sorry I hi jacked your thread with my tale of woe. Anyone else feel fee to PM me.

 

[hopeful]

@quirkydimples I apologize for getting in your business but are you getting child support? The way you talk about not knowing where he is makes me think you may not be. If you aren't, please take action on this. He can't skip out on his financial obligation unless you let him.

Sometimes peace of mind is more valuable than support you have to chase down. Some women can live without the support. Others can't. Also, sometimes no support and no contact means happiness, freedom, an opportunity to move forward. @quirkydimples was dealing with a very cunning and sick man and may consider her son and herself lucky to be free of him. Getting child support could mean him feeling a sense of entitlement and seizing the opportunity to wreak havoc on her and her son's life.

I am always encouraging women to pursue child support but in this situation I can completely understand if she chose to let it go and move on.

People also don't understand the therapy and healing needed to get past this type of abuse. Oftentimes there is no energy left to fight him and you choose to simply focus on yourself and what is left.

 

[JFemme]

thank all you ladies for sharing your stories...

 

[kanozas]

As I said in an earlier post, I don't know where he is...and I'm not trying to find out. My energy is spent thinking about and being grateful for all the good in my life since I left and the good to come. As @hopeful said earlier, I also have to focus on my son. Those are my top priorities: my son and me.

I have people in my family who seem upset that I am not bitter against him and all men; people who don't understand why I'm not angry. I was hurt and angry at one point (as was natural), but what good is it carrying that around? Looking to get "even.?" I don't even hate him; that takes too much energy.

Someone once said (and I'm too lazy to google it): the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. I'm indifferent to him.

As for bigamy, I think you misunderstood my post. He made plans to marry at least one of the women, but never actually went through. He ghosted her after meeting her parents, choosing a venue and helping put together a list of attendees (I saw this through his email which I had gained access to...the "proof" I mentioned earlier).

I understand what you're saying about outing him, but my peace of mind at this point will not have me seeking to find him for any reason at all. I'm also not willing to put my safety at risk. Anyone willing to do all that he did (and I haven't shared the half of what I eventually uncovered) is not well and I want no parts of it.

I don't necessarily mean you in this particular situation but in general for anyone in a similar situation or who have knowledge of such. I'm very concerned about religious abuse. Just look at my own Roman Catholic Church smh. Just to make certain, I'm not at all advocating revenge/hatred but protection of the community. Yep, people do what's best for them esp. where safety is concerned.

EAT @quirkydimples

I hope you don't think I don't get it, that part just stood out to me. He needs to be retired from the ready pool of women and children lol. We all have some kind of story and I know what it means to move on. So, I do get it. I'm not judging and I hope you didn't think that.

 

[quirkydimples]

@hopeful You get it completely. My son and I are so very lucky to have gotten away relatively unscathed.

 

[hopeful]

OP I'm sorry I hi jacked your thread with my tale of woe. Anyone else feel fee to PM me.

Please don't apologize. Your story turned this thread on it's heels. Thank you for sharing. Your cautionary tale was just what this thread needed. And I'm not surprised that you are flourishing. That's what happens when you free yourself from an abusive relationship and give yourself the gift of therapy and healing. I think you are amazing.

 

[quirkydimples]

@hopeful

I think you're amazing. You always have words of support and wisdom for the women on this board. I appreciate you.

 

[hopeful]

@hopeful

I think you're amazing. You always have words of support and wisdom for the women on this board. I appreciate you.

 

[caribeandiva]

Drop him and KIM. What a wonderful gift to get so early in the relationship.

I know I shouldn't be laughing but this post cracks me up

 

[shortycocoa]

I'm not saying I would do this, but if his phone happens to be somewhere where he ain't and its unlocked......

Nothing good ever comes from this...but if OP goes down that road, she has to be ready for what she finds. It always ends up being more than what one bargained for.

An ornament is ice cold. A hand is warm with blood running through veins. Big difference. Stroking any body part whether visible or not, is a very intimate gesture. There is more to their relationship than meets the eye. If she was his sister then I wouldn't be too worried as my family is very affectionate and I have to keep pushing my 200+ lb kid brother off using me as an armchair or head rest with his humongous self.
With cousins you need to pay attention as cousins have been known to hookup with each other. This situation is way too suspect to ignore. Save yourself.

Known to hook up AND get married!

You're right. I was thinking the conversation might give closure but men don't give a damn about giving closure.

They sure don't...especially when they have caused the most hurt and pain.

I have actually been in communication with 'my guy'...not much though... He always texts me "Good Morning" and we will chat briefly during the day. He and I have both been very busy but we have plans to talk (uninterrupted) soon. In the mean time, I'm thinking back to what happened, getting everyone's input from the site, really considering all points of views. There are a few things I have taken into account:
1. He was/is really into me. He knows that I am still vetting him and he is really trying hard to impress me.
2. I saw no other signs of flirting or even checking out 'girlfriend' throughout the entire day. He was all over me and totally into like he usually is. He didn't seem bothered by the interaction between girlfriend and best friend when they showed affection towards one another.
3. His behavior after the incident wasn't suspicious. He carried on talking and laughing. However, hers was questionable.
4. This one is a big one... He is so damn generous. I mean I literally do not have to think about anything when I'm with him. He enjoys spoiling me... And I've learned to accept it and I tell myself... I deserve it . The fact that he's financially secure, helps.

Now I don't plan to sell my self-respect for a few trips, dinners and gifts....but let's think rationally.

Please tell us this is a joke. All of this does not make it any better, or mean that the situation you saw with your own two eyes doesn't exist or can't happen again. In fact, from this list you are describing, it sounds like the perfect set-up for him to continue the behavior.

I'm not trying to offend you or anyone else, but this all sounds similar to what a woman would say to defend her abuser in a physically abusive relationship. I'm not saying that's the type of relationship you're in, just trying to show you a comparison so you can understand what you're doing. You haven't known him long, and you don't really know what he is capable of, but it seems like you are adamant about continuing with him. I thought some of the same things that others did about what his intentions are, and something is definitely not right. All I can say is good luck and keep your third eye open. We certainly care about you and wouldn't want you to get hurt.

My sister's ex- husband had no kids when they married. When they divorced he had 7 kids. 1 with is wife/my sister...and the rest.

he used to tell these girls my sister was his aunt he was staying with.

Fast forward to a dude i was dating last year or so...when i asked who a lady was in a pic with him father/kids etc and he said his AUNT and i know that lady look my age. ALERT ALERT ALERT...right there i said your aunt huh? Gut kicked right in! Men be slick.

^^^^^ YES!!!! ALL of this! My sons' father used to do stuff like this all the time, only he would tell other women when they asked who I was or whose car he came to their house in that I was his cousin and it was his cousin's car.

One woman told me she saw a picture I tagged him in on FB. It was a picture of my oldest son behind the wheel ( he was still a hand baby at the time) and him sitting in the passenger seat of said car. She said she knew then that he was lying about who I was and stopped seeing him.

According to her, he would go to her house in my car while I was at work when he was supposed to be taking care of our son.

He would either use that lie of me being his cousin, say I was just his son's mother and we weren't together anymore, or not acknowledge me at all to these women and say he was single. I'm still trying to heal from all the BS I allowed him to put me through in that relationship.

 

[GetHappy2014]

So, 'my guy' and I had our talk. Bottom line ...before I go into detail is... I am going to continue to see him until I have clear evidence. My gut instinct made me zone in on what I observed between girlfriend and 'my guy'. That same gut instinct is telling me that the interaction was innocent (at least for him). You must remember that hindsight is 20/20. So with that said...many of the posters who were gracious enough to share their stories of betrayal... Must realize that they may have had to wait to receive clear information or undeniable evidence of their SO's behavior that they could no longer deny. In my case, if 'my guy' is up to no good... I am going to need more evidence. Know that I have been dating and been in relationships for years, so I am not new to this. I have come across a few dogs (just a few), but it never took me longer than a month for me to see their ways and take immediate action. I am confident that if my guy is up to no good, I will find out soon enough. Soon enough for me. I have come to know men pretty well. As a single women I am always propositioned by married men, even the ones you would least expect. It has gotten to where I know the game. Most men have side chicks. So I am not gullible or a fool. However, at this point while I am dating my guy, with the exception of the hand incident, I have no complaints. In my heart and gut I do not feel there was anything to the hand incident. However, I do feel girlfriend should have reacted differently. My guys' response to that was, "he cannot tell me what she was thinking."

His response to my inquiry for those interested:
1. Do you think I would play "finger-sies", while you are sitting right there, for you to clearly see?
2. Girlfriend is 'best friends' girl. I would never cross that line.
3. He has never been in a past relationship of any kind with her.

Now, although his statements don't necessarily exonerate him, I cannot just drop a seemingly 'good guy' for something I am not certain about.

So, I will continue to date 'my guy' with 'eyes and ears' turned all the way up. If there is any indication of questionable behavior again, he will be discarded (no questions asked).
By the way, during my online dating stint, I have gotten to know a few private investigators. If my guy and I discuss taking this to the next level, I will definitely patronize their services. I have a feeling they would be happy to oblige.