Spinoff: Why Are Black Men Not As Marriage Minded?

[CoilyFields]

^^^^ This mentatlity has not done us any favors!

There was a time where if a guy got a girl pregnant he was EXPECTED to marry her and take care of his responsibilities (weather she was his dream girl or not!).

But so many people nowadays argue for just the opposite and the guys become repeat offenders. If you dont wanna marry the person you make a baby with then DONT HAVE SEX WITH THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[Windsy]

There are number of reasons:

Lack of Incentive programs - men gets it all upfront - swinging from the chandelier, to moral boundaries being crossed. What do they have to look forward to when they marry you when you've given them everything JUST to get him to commit

Benefits - they see no benefit in getting married.


Lack of immediate examples - sure they can look to black married couples but there are a lack of married black couples in their immediate circle.

Unfair Stigmas about Marriage - sex decrease, the old ball & chain, life is over as you know it, she takes you to the bank if you leave her, there goes your freedom.

The overall views on marriage has to change for both men and women.

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

I think it's because more and more black men (and women) are growing up in divided households. Either the father left when the children were young, or there wasn't a stable father figure around at ALL. Smh....

So, in turn...black men grow up not having a good sense of FAMILY...a truly UNITED family household. Maybe back in the 1950's or 1960's they saw more stable fathers and husbands in the family, but now days.... it's almost non-existent! And it's not just black families either. It's affecting other families of other races too. I just think it's more prevalent in the black community.

I think if more black males grew up with a stable, hard-working, gentleman-like father figure in their lives, I think they would grow up to value marriage, family, supporting your wife & kids, etc so much more. I think boys/young men LEARN how to treat women from the way they see their fathers treat their mothers, the type of relationships their fathers had with the women in their lives, and the types of relationships their mothers have in their lives as well.

 

[*SkolarStar*]

There are number of reasons:

Lack of Incentive programs - men gets it all upfront - swinging from the chandelier, to moral boundaries being crossed. What do they have to look forward to when they marry you when you've given them everything JUST to get him to commit

Benefits - they see no benefit in getting married.


Lack of immediate examples - sure they can look to black married couples but there are a lack of married black couples in their immediate circle.

Unfair Stigmas about Marriage - sex decrease, the old ball & chain, life is over as you know it, she takes you to the bank if you leave her, there goes your freedom.

The overall views on marriage has to change for both men and women.

Isn't that bolded statement the truth!! We have the best example for marriage that everyone can see: the President and First Lady Obama. Still, these brothers are not marriage minded. Why? Because they have no IMMEDIATE examples. Males in my family are marriage minded because they are raised that way. Even my cousins who fathers walked out on them. Uncles and older males of the family step to the plate to make sure they are being raised to respect and honor women so they will think of marriage. Yet, my family is Jamaican. Some people may think that makes a difference.

In the community there needs to be more examples of happily married couples. At my church they celebrate Black Marriage Day. Couples get prayed for during the service and in the atrium their wedding photos are up (that's one of my favorite sundays because it's so sweet ). More elements of the community need to aide in making black boys and men marriage minded because with so many living in and coming from single parent households the family can't do it alone.

SN: My mother is worried that I won't find a man to get married to. I'm 21.

 

[Cherokee-n-Black]

I don't know if this is off-topic, but there was an Oprah episode about the divide between Baby Boomer women and Generation X women. The Generation X representative made a bold statement I will never forget (to the Baby Boomers): "You have done a horrible job raising sons." And oddly...no one refuted what she said. That was an "ohhhhhhhhhh!" moment. She went on to say they have no sense of responsibility, they are lazy, underachieving, and self-absorbed. Ouch! I'm not saying she's right, but no one jumped up ready to defend themselves or their sons...

 

[starfish79]

I don't know if this is off-topic, but there was an Oprah episode about the divide between Baby Boomer women and Generation X women. The Generation X representative made a bold statement I will never forget (to the Baby Boomers): "You have done a horrible job raising sons." And oddly...no one refuted what she said. That was an "ohhhhhhhhhh!" moment. She went on to say they have no sense of responsibility, they are lazy, underachieving, and self-absorbed. Ouch! I'm not saying she's right, but no one jumped up ready to defend themselves or their sons...

Boy have they!! I think this has something to do with the huge shift in the economic and social climate post WW2.

 

[Cherokee-n-Black]

Boy have they!! I think this has something to do with the huge shift in the economic and social climate post WW2.

It's quite possible. I also think it has to do (in our community) with the post-civil rights era relaxation of our moral code and work ethic in the 70's and 80's.

 

[anon123]

I know your going to bring up slavery and all. And though I understand this culture has roots, (I may be stoned for this) but it does not sit well with me to CONTINUE to blame slavery and post-slavery welfare systems for the MENTALITY of the men today.

I grow up in the hood. I understand whats available to our people and it is an individual choice to work toward a better life or not. If I had access to education and internet and libraries that helped me learn and grow, everyone else on my block had the same access. But it is an individual choice to accept or reject. Everyone is different.

The values and state of mind of our community TODAY is not that of yester-years. Not even close. Our ancestors did what they did to survive and think of the next generations. Today, is surviving but not on the same level. We do not collectively think of the next generation.

Because TODAY, you can have two parents in the house and collect welfare. TODAY, there's not much stopping a man from taking care of his family expect himself or unemployment . The 'system' is designed to deal harshly with fathers that run away from there responsibilities as a matter a fact. So yeah, we can blame slavery but when will we as a community stop looking at the origins and start focusing on current state of mind of our people to find solutions?

Interesting that you assumed I was going to say it was slavery. :scratchch I was not. I was asking a genuine question and seeing if anybody had any ideas on a deeper reason, origin, whatever of these beliefs. Everyone is just saying "because it's not valued." Well, okay, but why is it not valued? Because they don't have any examples. Well, okay, how did they come to not have any examples? There were more married black families two generations ago, so there were examples. What happened to make them disappear? I was just seeing if anybody could go deeper and root out the source.

 

[mischka]

Interesting that you assumed I was going to say it was slavery. :scratchch I was not. I was asking a genuine question and seeing if anybody had any ideas on a deeper reason, origin, whatever of these beliefs. Everyone is just saying "because it's not valued." Well, okay, but why is it not valued? Because they don't have any examples. Well, okay, how did they come to not have any examples? There were more married black families two generations ago, so there were examples. What happened to make them disappear? I was just seeing if anybody could go deeper and root out the source.

I've seen a lot of responses in here speak to why it isn't valued, mainly because of single parent household, no father figures, no perceived benefits of marriage, generational cycles, etc. It really is all just a vicious cycle at the end of the day. You didn't have a father so your sons don't value being fathers (I say fathers rather than husband because these men have no problem siring children but refuse to step into the role of husband which would necessitate raising their children). The well reasoned response to such a conundrum is that a circle has no beginning.

 

[anon123]

I've seen a lot of responses in here speak to why it isn't valued, mainly because of single parent household, no father figures, no perceived benefits of marriage, generational cycles, etc. It really is all just a vicious cycle at the end of the day. You didn't have a father so your sons don't value being fathers (I say fathers rather than husband because these men have no problem siring children but refuse to step into the role of husband which would necessitate raising their children). The well reasoned response to such a conundrum is that a circle has no beginning.

But a cycle does have a beginning. Single parent families are more common now than they were, say, 40 years ago. So what changed? At what point did marriage began to be perceived as having no benefits, because I don't think it was always that way. I think the premise that it's been this way since time immemorial just because and so the triggers or root causes are inscrutable is flawed.

 

[mischka]

For black people? Yes our cycles have beginnings but I feel they go so far back it's kind of fruitless to pinpoint a "beginning" in the last few generations... this is our cultural history as long as we have been in this country. So I think it would be difficult if not impossible to look at us who are alive now and try to figure out where we went wrong... this is just the way our culture functions in my opinion.

However, there has been a lot of academic research on the matter that may offer the kinds of answers you are interested in... are you familiar with William Julius Wilson and his "marriageability" research in the black community? Check him out, he has done extensive research in this area. He breaks it down that it basically "started" if you want to put it that way when black men became unable to find work that paid enough to support a family and everything declined from there.

 

[mischka]

Btw, I meant the circle thing both philosophically and literally... lol... circles literally do not have beginnings. It's like asking which came first the chicken or the egg? Except we keep tossing the blame back and forth between "which came first the single mom or the deadbeat daddy?" Or "which came first, the child who doesn't value marriage or the man that abandoned his family?"

Here is William Julius Wilson's wikipedia page as just an overview of his research... he has done some really interesting things looking into black America as an "underclass" not just the lower class.

 

[BlackMasterPiece]

mwedzi, there was an excellent post based on the causes of the dissolution of the American black family unit. If I remember correctly it was started by that poster, can't remember her name, but she was a regular in the relationship forum from way back but has since left. She also recently married a white guy, she used to dole out alota advice here and her avatar was of Lisa Simpson, can't remember if it was her or naturalmanenyc, but it essentially said she was researching this topic and that all of this originated with the introduction of welfare in the black communities, and how the tax code de-incentivized being married and incentivised being a single mom by awarding more tax relief and tax breaks for the ladder, it had alot to do with Reagonomics I believe, the studies also stated that in order to get the most welfare benefits, especially in the projects, one had to be unmarried with kids, so back then even when men were dedicated to a woman, they would stop claiming them etc....it was a very interesting read, then it got into the effects of the crack epidemic.

Also, the slave experience explanation doesn't really suffice to me, because marriage in African and carribbean immigrant communities are quite high.

 

[MizAvalon]

^^^That was Bunny77.

 

[anon123]

For black people? Yes our cycles have beginnings but I feel they go so far back it's kind of fruitless to pinpoint a "beginning" in the last few generations... this is our cultural history as long as we have been in this country. So I think it would be difficult if not impossible to look at us who are alive now and try to figure out where we went wrong... this is just the way our culture functions in my opinion.

However, there has been a lot of academic research on the matter that may offer the kinds of answers you are interested in... are you familiar with William Julius Wilson and his "marriageability" research in the black community? Check him out, he has done extensive research in this area. He breaks it down that it basically "started" if you want to put it that way when black men became unable to find work that paid enough to support a family and everything declined from there.

Thanks. I will put him on the list *cursed long list* I had the impression that the situation got noticeably worse a couple generations ago. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. But the point you mention about black people being this country's underclass is one I have heard talked about before, and is very believable to me.

Yeah, you're right, circles don't have beginnings, lol, which is why I changed the word a little to "cycle."

@mwedzi, there was an excellent thread based on the causes of the dissolution of the American black family unit. If I remember correctly it was started by that poster, can't remember her name, but she was a regular in the relationship forum from way back but has since left. She also recently married a white guy, she used to dole out alota advice here and her avatar was of Lisa Simpson, can't remember if it was her or naturalmanenyc but it essentially said she was researching this topic and that all of this originated with the introduction of welfare in the black communities, and how the tax code de-incentivized being married and incentivised being a single mom by awarding more tax relief and tax breaks for the ladder, the studies also stated that in order to get the most welfare benefits, especially in the projects, one had to be unmarried with kids, so back then even when men were dedicated to a woman, they would stop claiming them etc....it was a very interesting read, then it got into the effects of the crack epidemic.

Also, the slave experience explanation doesn't really suffice to me, because marriage in African and carribbean immigrant communities are quite high.

Thanks BMP. I remember the poster you are talking about, Bunny something or other. Her posts were always really interesting, and the points you mention about the welfare system and the crack epidemic are ones that I've heard of. They seem believable, too. Just wondered if that's what other people were thinking and if anyone had any ideas in addition to that. But yeah, I can see how those would be major contributing factors.

 

[Windsy]

@mwedzi, there was an excellent post based on the causes of the dissolution of the American black family unit. If I remember correctly it was started by that poster, can't remember her name, but she was a regular in the relationship forum from way back but has since left. She also recently married a white guy, she used to dole out alota advice here and her avatar was of Lisa Simpson, can't remember if it was her or naturalmanenyc, but it essentially said she was researching this topic and that all of this originated with the introduction of welfare in the black communities, and how the tax code de-incentivized being married and incentivised being a single mom by awarding more tax relief and tax breaks for the ladder, it had alot to do with Reagonomics I believe, the studies also stated that in order to get the most welfare benefits, especially in the projects, one had to be unmarried with kids, so back then even when men were dedicated to a woman, they would stop claiming them etc....it was a very interesting read, then it got into the effects of the crack epidemic.

Also, the slave experience explanation doesn't really suffice to me, because marriage in African and carribbean immigrant communities are quite high.

I agree and since the government is in the marriage business; which I don't believe they should be but that's another thread; I don't understand why the monetary breaks aren't more rewarding for married couples. There isn't any incentive for marriage and our government is anti-marriage.

 

[anon123]

I agree and since the government is in the marriage business; which I don't believe they should be but that's another thread; I don't understand why the monetary breaks aren't more rewarding for married couples. There isn't any incentive for marriage and our government is anti-marriage.

That's interesting. I can see why you would say the gov't's lack of incentive would mean it's not pro-marriage. Why do you say that is specifically anti-marriage?

 

[Windsy]

That's interesting. I can see why you would say the gov't's lack of incentive would mean it's not pro-marriage. Why do you say that is specifically anti-marriage?

When the programs/incentives that a government promotes forces one to choose between marriage and government welfare with welfare being the most attractive choice, the government is anti-marriage.

With the current tax breaks, if I'm single, at a low income and have children, I get all sorts of credits or in my opinion, reward bonus.

In order to get government assistance a woman needs to NOT have a working male (spouse) in the house and be unemployed or underemployed. These women sign paper attesting to those two conditions and if she wants to keep getting help; she must maintain both of those conditions.


ETA: for most, if it means being unemployed and receiving a check and having the bills paid vs. getting married to possibly working through some rough periods and possibly struggle financially; most would choose the government incentives.

 

[Beautytalk69]

I'm going to break it down for Yall. There is an abundance of whore and sluts. I'm talking about ones that will feed u, **** u and pay your light bill. Why do they do this? Just to get f*cked! Now with all this around..why would a black man settle down? They got all they need. Oh just to let you know, black men have a monopoly over women regardless of race. Black men now have a shot with any woman...and they are going for it. Honestly, if I was a blk man..i wouldn't get married either

 

[mischka]

I'm going to break it down for Yall. There is an abundance of whore and sluts. I'm talking about ones that will feed u, **** u and pay your light bill. Why do they do this? Just to get f*cked! Now with all this around..why would a black man settle down? They got all they need. Oh just to let you know, black men have a monopoly over women regardless of race. Black men now have a shot with any woman...and they are going for it. Honestly, if I was a blk man..i wouldn't get married either

 

[Beautytalk69]

Why is that funny? Lol. Girl back in the day I would see blk men with busted white women and I was like damn how she got him. Now I see busted blk men with nice looking white women. They found out about blk men's sex game and they lost their blond headed mind! No not all blk men are good colorers, hell some can't even stay between the lines. However, they tend to be aggressive and white women love it! Don't get it twisted Becky be making tuna fish sandwiches with no crust and paying light bills too! Females have been bamboozled!

 

[Kurlee]

@mwedzi, there was an excellent post based on the causes of the dissolution of the American black family unit. If I remember correctly it was started by that poster, can't remember her name, but she was a regular in the relationship forum from way back but has since left. She also recently married a white guy, she used to dole out alota advice here and her avatar was of Lisa Simpson, can't remember if it was her or naturalmanenyc, but it essentially said she was researching this topic and that all of this originated with the introduction of welfare in the black communities, and how the tax code de-incentivized being married and incentivised being a single mom by awarding more tax relief and tax breaks for the ladder, it had alot to do with Reagonomics I believe, the studies also stated that in order to get the most welfare benefits, especially in the projects, one had to be unmarried with kids, so back then even when men were dedicated to a woman, they would stop claiming them etc....it was a very interesting read, then it got into the effects of the crack epidemic.

Also, the slave experience explanation doesn't really suffice to me, because marriage in African and carribbean immigrant communities are quite high.

they are?!erplexed

 

[mischka]

I don't think that's true at all... I haven't ever seen it the case that anyone is tripping over themselves to get to black men except black women but I guess... don't really think I should expound on that bc I don't want to get accused of black man bashing... but again... I guess

 

[MD_Lady]

There was a similar thread about 6 months ago. Here are my responses from that one:

The answer is simple. Marriage is not valued in the black American community, period. Other race men are raised knowing that marriage and family are a part of the grown up package and they behave accordingly. Once they reach a certain age, they seek out a marriageable woman and marry her. Black men don't do that because they are not shamed or shunned for creating illegitimate families or still acting like a man-child at 44 years old...

:thatsall: As far as I'm concerned, discussions about this topic can begin and end with the bold.

 

[Windsy]

I'm going to break it down for Yall. There is an abundance of whore and sluts. I'm talking about ones that will feed u, **** u and pay your light bill. Why do they do this? Just to get f*cked! Now with all this around..why would a black man settle down? They got all they need. Oh just to let you know, black men have a monopoly over women regardless of race. Black men now have a shot with any woman...and they are going for it. Honestly, if I was a blk man..i wouldn't get married either

Yes I agree but sluts and whores are in every race and they all do the same thing but it seems that other races seek out marriage and not Black men. Why is that? Maybe its their Monopoly status...IDK.

 

[Beautytalk69]

I don't think that's true at all... I haven't ever seen it the case that anyone is tripping over themselves to get to black men except black women but I guess... don't really think I should expound on that bc I don't want to get accused of black man bashing... but again... I guess

Girl my mom works at an elementary school and she said that little white girls and white Latinas be on blk boys like they gold. Screw Jose and billy they checking for Tyrone! Where do you think they get it from?

 

[mischka]

Girl my mom works at an elementary school and she said that little white girls and white Latinas be on blk boys like they gold. Screw Jose and billy they checking for Tyrone! Where do you think they get it from?

I'll take your word for it but let's agree to disagree on this one... lol.

 

[Beautytalk69]

Yes I agree but sluts and whores are in every race and they all do the same thing but it seems that other races seek out marriage and not Black men. Why is that? Maybe its their Monopoly status...IDK.

Of course its not just that. I think ppl already addressed that marriage isn't valued in our communities. What i posted was is probably on 40 percent of the reason

 

[BeautifulFlower]

Also, the slave experience explanation doesn't really suffice to me, because marriage in African and carribbean immigrant communities are quite high.

I come from a Caribbean background and yes Caribbean men do get married....but.......

They are also excessive adulterers and most have been married at least twice.

I think we can all agree the marriage covenant is broken on a lot of levels and finding the right person to marry and understand what is takes to make a marriage survive is more important than just getting a bunch of ill-equiped people down the aisle.

 

[ambergirl]

I come from a Caribbean background and yes Caribbean men do get married....but.......

They are also excessive adulterers and most have been married at least twice.

I think we can all agree the marriage covenant is broken on a lot of levels and finding the right person to marry and understand what is takes to make a marriage survive is more important than just getting a bunch of ill-equiped people down the aisle.

Thank you! No offense to anyone, but this is one of the reasons I give the serious side eye to island brothers as relationship material.

It's not just men not wanting to marry. A lot of women don't want what some of these men are willing to give. If getting married is your goal you can make it happen, the question is in the long run will you want what you get?