Lessons you have learned in relationships

[rozlips]

This is such a cop-out. This idea that somehow because life is uncertain, we should just do whatever we like and the hell with the consequences. Yes, life is uncertain, but you can certainly increase your chances of a better life by making better choices. Relinquishing control doesn't help anything, it's just a cop-out, a feel-good remedy to justify the situational ethics so many folks have chosen to live by.

I didn't say that growing up without a father makes them a bad person. I said growing up without a father may well make them a bad choice for husband/wife. This is a conversation about making good choices, not about the relative good or bad in people.

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Montana said:
Let's just face it some people live in a superficial world where everyting is perfect, they have a perfect job, a perfect man, ect...then you have the people who live life, where everthing is not so perfect, maybe it's the guy who grew up w/ a dead beat dad, or it's the girl who grew up w/ a mother who never took care of her...does that make them a bad person, or a person who can't function and handle their business. In my opinon nothing is secure in this world...you can have it all today and loose it tomorrow!

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[JFemme]

* To use painful hard-won wisdom to 'get it right' the next time
* I deserve to be the number one person in the life of the #1 person in my life.
* Love is a verb ...

* I learned to give up my lifelong task of trying to make someone unavailable-available , someone ungiving-giving, and someone unloving-loving.

 

[VelvetRain]

I had to learn the hard way that I needed to just be myself. Why allow someone to change the real you?

 

[vevster]

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I personally hope the picky ladies get what they want.

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I think everyone deserves to want what they want...

 

[Laginappe]

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As long as I am able to provide for the child and as long as the child is around positive people like an uncle, grandfather, etc..then the child will still thrive.

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Why is it your uncle's, grandfathers etc responsiblity to be a father figure to your child? Haven't they already raised their children? The way you've planned it, they raise the kids they created, and then they have to turn around and help you raise yours? How fair is that? That's like expecting mom and dad to pick up the bill for the car that you bought but couldn't afford. Why should they pay when you didn't make appropriate plans to foot the bill on your own?

My father is looking forward to being grandpa (as he and my mother are constantly reminding me!). If something happened to my husband, he would step in and help with the father figure duties. But it would be disrespectful and unfair of me to expect him to do so simply because I failed to create a better situation for my child. That truly is selfish.

 

[Guest]

No, Lagninappe..it's not their responsibilty to raise any child that I may have. If you have read my post correctly, you would have seen the words that I would want the package deal..but if it doesn't work out that way then the child isn't going to be a "mess" just because I am single parent. It is true that the child could have an uncle or whoever in their life but that is not the same as raising the child. I hate when people confuse what I say or turn it around. The post was that it's selfish to have children on your own..and those children wouldn't make a great partner and lead a family because they way were raised. That is so untrue. Go back and read the thread then maybe you will see where the misconception began.

 

[Laginappe]

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If it doesn't work out that way and I decide to have child then I don't see it as being "selfish". As long as I am able to provide for the child and as long as the child is around positive people like an uncle, grandfather, etc..then the child will still thrive.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take the above passage to mean that while you would prefer the "perfect package", if you can't make that happen then you'd choose to have a child OOW. And in that case, you'd rely on your male family members to pick up the ball as far as providing a father figure. If that's not helping you raise a child then what is? I'm not deliberately misunderstanding. I really am trying to grasp the logic here. If its important enough for your child to have male figures in his life - then why can't that be his own father? Why relegate that important role to members of your family who have already done their job with their own children? And if its not important - then why are those family members needed at all?

 

[Bublnbrnsuga]

[ QUOTE ]
JFemme said:
* To use painful hard-won wisdom to 'get it right' the next time
* I deserve to be the number one person in the life of the #1 person in my life.
* Love is a verb ...

* I learned to give up my lifelong task of trying to make someone unavailable-available , someone ungiving-giving, and someone unloving-loving.

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Hello!! Yes love IS a verb. This 38 year old man I was with did not understand this. He was still waiting to feel those "butterflies" to signal if he was in love. Not saying love is not a feeling,but feelings go away over time...

 

[Guest]

Laginappe...I'm saying that if I choose to have a child and I am not married then the child isn't going to be a sh*&^% mess just because he is raised in a single parent household. No one is relying on anyone to help raise no children. All I'm saying is since you and others on this thread think that a person must have a father figure in order to have good relationships later on in life then if that is the case as far as you know the child who had a deadbeat dad could have had another role model. Because of that he could have good relationships and be a family man. As I have I said at least twice just because one is raised in a two parent household they can have more issues than one who wasn't. This topic was played a very long time ago to me so I don't know why I continue to explain something to people who think their way is always the right way. Please go back and read the post..if I'm not mistaken the poster said it was "selfish" to have children without being married..not true. I guess everyone who gets pregnant out wedlock should have an abortion. Some people don't believe in that. If I have a child I am not going to be selfish by allowing others to raise it. My point was...the child will thrive regardless if there is father there or not.

 

[rozlips]

Out-of-wedlock births are not only a costly social problem, but the children themselves are at a significant disadvantage compared to children born to two-parent families.

* They are 50% more likely to be born with a low birth weight, and the rate of infant mortality is higher in this group.

* Some 29.7% must repeat a grade at school, compared to the overall rate of 11.6%.

* Children from single-parent families or stepfamilies are two to three times more likely to have emotional or behavioral problems.

* Daughters of single parents are 53% more likely to marry in their teens, 111% more likely to have children as teenagers, 164% more likely to have premarital births and 92% more likely to end their marriages.

* Studies show that when they reach their 30s they earn an average of $11,500 less than those from two-parent families - regardless of race or parent income.

* Seven in ten juveniles in long-term correctional facilities did not live with their fathers while they were growing up.

The cost of illegitimacy is economic as well as human. It is estimated that the economic cost approaches $750 billion. And the problem is growing.

 

[LiqueXX]

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Jessy55 said:
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brownrelaxedhair said:
Actions speak louder than words.

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I dated guys who would act really unlovingly, but I'd tell myself "he said he loved me" and I'd hang on to lousy relationships. This is probably the biggest lesson I had to learn: Never mind what a guy says, pay attention to what he does.

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ITA...people in general SAY lots of things that they do not back up with action. It took alot for me to learn to start looking at a man's actions and not just listening to what he was saying

.

 

[Guest]

Well, not every child born out of wedlock falls into your statistics, Rozlips.

 

[rozlips]

I never said they did Natori. I said that it's only fair to make better choices and give your children every opportunity. There's not a woman on this board who doesn't have a choice as to whether or not to have an OOW child. Why have a child under less than ideal circumstances if you can help it? If we're actually putting children first, the thought of having a child OOW would be unthinkable.

 

[Laginappe]

A child may not automatically be a mess because he/she was raised in a single parent household. However, that adult’s frame of reference as to family and family values are going to be different from mine simply because we did come from different family origins. It is unusual for a man raised by a single parent to have the same views of marriage and family as I do, having been raised by a two parent household. Just like it would be difficult for me to relate to his views of marriage and family. Note I said difficult – but not impossible.

But why shouldn’t you rely on help to raise a child? What’s wrong with admitting that raising a child is the most difficult and important job we’ll ever have and its simply easier to undertake that task if we do so with a proper partner? Why is it so wrong to want that? Why does everyone get hostile when a person prefers a more traditional approach to this business of marriage and family?

I certainly never said that an OOW pregnancy should automatically end in abortion. I said – as did others – that better choices need to be made before we get pregnant. Its just that simple. I have said on other posts – not this one – that I believe it is selfish to have a baby simply for the reasoning of “I want one”. Wanting one is not reason enough to bring a child into the world that you have not prepared for. Now it’s the level of preparation that’s up for debate. For some preparation is dependent on a marriage. For other’s its making sure that you have enough maternity leave so that you can get back to work when the kid is 6 weeks old.

Fact is a child’s sense of identity is formed by his relationship with both parents. Not his mother and his uncle / grandparent / or mom’s boyfriend Joe. When dad is out of the picture, that portion of the child’s identity suffers. Talk to all of these men who have grown up without dads and you’ll see this is true. Its different – to an extent – for the daughters, because mom is still there. But those missing fathers affect them too. I don’t understand the logic behind choosing to create such a life for a child. Not when it is relatively simple to avoid it.

 

[Guest]

With that aside, the original subtopic was women who avoided men because they were raised differently. Rozlips, sure most would want to bring children into an ideal environment...I would want to as well. I have said this. I also said that if things turned out differently then I would do my best to raise the child. Getting back to REAL point...just because a child wasn't raised in a two parent household does not mean he will have failed relationships. Man, I wish you could see some of the f%^&$% up relationships people have who were raised in the "ideal" environment. I really wish you all would stop misunderstanding the REAL point I was trying to make here.

 

[Bublnbrnsuga]

Oh wee everybody. Can we keep the discussion of single parent households vs. married households to a minimum (actually let's end it). Good points were made throughout,but can we get back to adding to the list. On mark,get set,GOOOO!!!

 

[rozlips]

Natori, please find a post of mine that said that just because a child wasn't raised in a two-parent home he would be messed up. I said that they are more likely to have issues with two variables; gender roles and valuing marriage and family. It's not worth it to me to take a chance with a man who is less likely to understand what a man's role is, therefore I chose not to date men who are from OOW families. It's just that simple. That is what I've said repeatedly over and over again. You are the one who keeps putting words in my mouth, and claiming that I said they would be messed up, I never said any such thing. Statistics show that there are any number of variables whereas they are more likely to be behind the eight-ball, but I based my decision on two. Two variables that I encountered repeatedly, and that ended in disastrous relationships. If you'll read my list I also discounted men who were raised in domestic violence homes, and probably some more factors as well. Why? Because thats another phenomenon that I have personally encountered several times with likewise disastrous results. The originator of this thread asked for lessons we've learned in relationships. I posted a few of mine. If your lessons aren't congruent with mine, big woo. These are MY lessons, folks are free to take them or leave them at will.

 

[Guest]

Well, if the person has "issues" as you say...then to me it seems that you are saying that they are "messed" up...you were the one who listed "statistics" but you're right you have your lessons and I have mine.

 

[Bobbie]

[ QUOTE ]
rozlips said:
Out-of-wedlock births are not only a costly social problem, but the children themselves are at a significant disadvantage compared to children born to two-parent families.

* They are 50% more likely to be born with a low birth weight, and the rate of infant mortality is higher in this group.

* Some 29.7% must repeat a grade at school, compared to the overall rate of 11.6%.

* Children from single-parent families or stepfamilies are two to three times more likely to have emotional or behavioral problems.

* Daughters of single parents are 53% more likely to marry in their teens, 111% more likely to have children as teenagers, 164% more likely to have premarital births and 92% more likely to end their marriages.

* Studies show that when they reach their 30s they earn an average of $11,500 less than those from two-parent families - regardless of race or parent income.

* Seven in ten juveniles in long-term correctional facilities did not live with their fathers while they were growing up.

The cost of illegitimacy is economic as well as human. It is estimated that the economic cost approaches $750 billion. And the problem is growing.

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Let's not ignore that alot of the single-parent households, mostly women, make substantially less than two-parent households, or even other single women without children.

A number of factors goes into raising a child: economic resources, education (about sex, relationships and otherwise), emotional stability, optimal health, etc.
Bear in mind that these women are more likely to come from backgrounds where these resources do not exist for them, and they are more likely to have children out-of-wedlock. And also of course, a child growing in that kind of environment would be more likely to have these social problems than those who come from financial/emotionally stable households.
Does that mean that children born to women OOW are troubled misanthropes with failing relationships? No.
Does that mean that children born to women without adequate resources OOW are likely to become troubled adults? In honesty, yes.

When you're looking at statistics it's important to not only note numbers but look at the population sampled itself: their background, economic or social, religious makeup, education resources, etc.
It's fine to use statistics to back up your opinions, but keep in mind the subjectivity of your statements when not representing the entire facts, not numbers selectively chosen to represent a point.
As educated women here, we need to be critical and aware of how statistics can be used and misused in "proving" our opinions.
To sum it all up, I would be very concerned for a mother raising a child without financial/emotional support (and no it does not have to come from a family member who sees it as a "burden", often it comes in the form of teachers or positive role models the child chooses himself/herself).
However, if a child is raised in a loving family (and the nuclear "family" these days is not always defined by the traditional "mom" and "pop" variety but can also come in the form, it can be have many aunts/uncles, grandparents, siblings, friends, etc.), than by all means, a resounding yes, go ahead. For as someone stated earlier, it is better for a child to grow up in a loving, supportive environment than growing up in a household with fueding, abusive, or neglecting parents.
I'm pretty sure we all know at least one man from a two-person family who treats women like conquests or worse, punching bags.

Before renouncing someone based on their birth, it's best to take a look at how he was raised in that environment.

And that's my first and final say on this topic!

 

[rozlips]

Bobbie, as I've said before I know this subject up close and personal. After all, as a therapist most of the children I work with are OOW, from ALL economic walks of life. A large perecentage of the children I treat are victims of sexual abuse, which of course crosses all economic barriers. But one of it's greatest risk factors is the lack of a father in the home. So, whether a child is a wealth OOW or one who is a victim of urban blight, the risk factors for much of the deviance remains the same.

I've dated men who's mama's had doctorates and six-figure incomes and they still didn't have a clue about gender roles nor did they value marriage or family. Those two variables have nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the environment in which the child was raised. If mama and daddy didn't value family enough to get married, why should he? Oh, mama is a superwoman and takes care of everything without a man, why can't you? Those are the variables I was concerned about when I excluded the product of OOW homes from my prospective dates. And they have no bearing on deprivation or economics.

 

[Laginappe]

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If mama and daddy didn't value family enough to get married, why should he?

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Exactly! Children learn by what they've experienced. If they've never experienced marriage from any pov - it stands to reason that its not likely to be of much importance to them later on in life.

 

[Dreamn]

my friend grew up in a two parent home and shes just as f**&^ up as she can be. she follows her bf around and disrespects her just as can be, and she continues to endure everything he puts her thru. so i guess children do learn from what theyve experienced. much like her daddy did her mommy while she was growing up and he still continues to do.

i dont agree with using statistics at all. just because you deal with a small population of people does not mean you could generalize. if that were the case then hell, most of us black women would be bit&^&s and most black men would be nothing but inmates.

now back on topic...i have nothing to add, but some of the stuff you guys said is soooo true

 

[frankie]

Still learning about this whole relationship thing...but I do know...

1) A man will only treat you the way you ALLOW him to treat you
2) All men are NOT dogs
3) You should not be the one doing all the bending...compromise is a two way street
4) If you don't love self...you can't love anyone else
5) You cannot mend someone else's broken heart
6) You need time to heal between relationships...there is nothing cute about baggage...deal with your issues before pursuing a new relationship
7) You should never look for someone to COMPLETE you...a relationship consists of two WHOLE individuals...look for someone complimentary...not supplementary
8) Dating is fun...even if he doesn't turn out to be Mr. Right

 

[Dreamn]

oh yeah, a man can never make you happy..only you can make you happy, so dont go looking for a bf if you're down in the dumps

 

[fine_beauty]

[ QUOTE ]
vevster said:
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I personally hope the picky ladies get what they want.

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I think everyone deserves to want what they want...

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A guy confided in me that it is our right and I suppose men do the same

 

[Spagirl]

I've learned that just because a person is brought up in a 2 parent home it doesn't mean that home wasn't dysfunctional. Anyone can suffer from role confusion so it's important date everyone with caution.

It's important to know what role (your standard) you want your future husband to fulfill. As you date and get to know different men each one needs to be weighed on your scale of ability to fulfill that role.

It's also important to know what the person your dating is looking for as to the role of his future wife. If that role meets what you've outlined for yourself and you're able to fulfill that role for the rest of your life that's great....If not, run!

Last but not least, I've learned God's leading and approval is paramount.

 

[Laginappe]

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just because you deal with a small population of people does not mean you could generalize.

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But isn’t that what you all are doing? Taking your samples from the even smaller portion of the population that you’re exposed to and then making generlizations from that? At least, our generalizations are backed up by statistics. What are yours backed up by?

For every example of a “f**&^” person that came out of a 2 parent home, there’s more examples of an equally “f**&^’d” person that was the result of a single parent home. So those comparisons get us nowhere.

My saying that I view men coming from single parent homes with caution is not a rejection of every single person that came from a single parent home. It is not a slam or personal attack on the quality people who got their start in a single parent home. What it is however is a slam on our society’s shifting views of family and values. Somewhere along the line we had a huge disconnect on the importance of parenting and family.

People put more effort into planning a vacation than we do in planning our families. We’ll spend months picking the right vacation spot - how we’re going to get there – which flight, how much we can afford to spend on a ticket – can we swing first class or coach? What hotel we’d like to stay at and can we afford it? We plan the activities we’d like to do once we’re there and we save up and budget to make sure we have enough spending money while we’re there.

Yet we do NONE of these things when it comes to planning our families. We fly by the seat of our pants and just figure it’ll all be ok, because we see everyone around us doing it too. Its ok to settle for less because everyone else is settling too. And those who refuse to settle are deemed foolish, unrealistic, and “holier than thou”. We’ve been telling ourselves this for so long that its almost impossible for us to imagine life another way. We’re reaping the results of this thought process now and it really is the one of the saddest parts of living in today’s world.

 

[Crystena77]

Wow this thread is enlightening.

The man who treats me the best BY FAR (and who I am still with)- is a man whose parents are divorced. I understand the principle that's coming across in being careful with someone who is the child of divorced or divided household - I'm scared of it becoming a rule people will live by.

My tips- all learned the hard way:

NEVER give more in a relationship than you are getting out of it. If your man is backing off - you are not to coddle, love, pamper him into giving more attention. The only recourse is to back off and take care of you. THAT will increase your chances of giving him a wakeup call.

Never become your man's "therapist". If he has problems - it is not your job to assume that role for him. Support him as he sorts his problems with a trained professional.

The number one person in your life is NOT him. That notion is scary and flawed. It has to be you. If you take care of yourself, take care of your needs and don't tolerate bad behavior, only then can you be a good partner who can contribute to the relationship. Your life should be able to function with our without him.

Hold on to your hobbies, interests and friends - keep these things up. Do not drop them for the man in your life. Your individuality and uniqueness are part of what makes you beautiful and attractive to him and what keeps you self protected in case your prince does turn out to be a frog.

I actually learned this next point at work in dealing with interrogations and it holds true in relationship and in human behavior in general. When actions and words conflict- believe the actions. Respond to the actions.

'A real healthy relationship requires two people. One person can end it - but it takes two to make it work'. - Steven Carter

 

[vevster]

OK LET US GET BACK TO THE THREAD TOPIC. If you want to discuss this further create a new thread.

Thank you!

 

[Montana]

Re: Lessons you have learned in relationships *DELETED*

Post deleted by vevster