How To Become A Challenge With Men?

[Southernbella.]

I think it is special when it can be felt within and be authentic. Do you have any tips on how you move to that point?

When I first started following the tips from the board and a few other femininity guru's, I started doing what they were saying but it also sounded like it was coming from a handbook. I knew what to do so to speak, but I didn't necessarily "feel" it since it was something foreign to me all my life. Does it honestly just take time to make it feel natural?

For me it was vital that I spend time alone with my thoughts and let myself heal. Prayer also helped. I guess in some ways my horrible ex drove me to that point. If not for that relationship, I wouldn't have hit rock bottom emotionally and vowed not to be there ever again. A few guys tried to court me during that healing period when I was legitimately not interested in casually dating. Dh is the one who fought the hardest and longest

For those who have been able to avoid a rock bottom, you can still motivate yourself enough to change but that motivation will depend on your goals and life experiences. But it starts with being absolutely and unequivocally uninterested in even the faintest hint of games or foolishness. Don't even entertain it. Scoff at it. Clutch your pearls at it. How dare they? It will eventually become part of who you are.

 

[sunnydaze]

I'd personally dead him. I am single (through selectivity), but I no longer "chase" men in ANY way. A man who's truly interested (or even half interested) comes after what he wants. I know this to be true because I've straight igged dudes and they still would reach out.

You have to decide whether you want to be the prize (and act accordingly), or be forever the chaser. If he doesn't call, I'd be so busy that I didn't notice . . .just doing me. If he hasn't called in two weeks (maybe a week ), he gets blocked and deleted . . .it's really that simple for me.

I really enjoy my own company, so I have to actively think about who I haven't spoken to in a bit.

I think this is so important, truly liking who you are, independent of interacting with others. I have a good friend, 40+ years old, who has real issues being by herself, I'm talking about on the smallest scale. Her calendar has to be completely full at all times. If she is approaching the weekend and hasn't locked in what she is doing with a man, with girlfriends, church mates, etc., Friday, Sat and Sunday, she goes into panic mode. If no one is available, she'll guilt her teenage son to stay home with her instead of hanging with his friends.

Whenever she's like "OMG, I don't have anything to do this weekend", I'm like "girl, why not go to the gym (has a membership she doesn't use), bookstore, reorganize your closet, take yourself to lunch, the movies, you know, spend some time with yourself". What I get back is "Girl, I'm not like you, I'm real extroverted, I have to be doing stuff". I know it is an attempt at subtle shade, but I pay it no mind, b/c I know what it is about . I know she masks her extreme unease with being by herself as extroversion. But it ends up coming across as desperation at times, particularly with men. She ends up doing stupid stuff like texting/calling guys who she hasn't heard from in weeks. They smell the desperation and react as expected by either declining her dates, not showing up or if they do, allowing her to pay.

My thing is, if you never take time to be alone with yourself, when is there time for self reflection/analysis/development? I feel that is important to understand who you are and what you want out of life.

 

[PrissiSippi]

I think this is so important, truly liking who you are, independent of interacting with others. I have a good friend, 40+ years old, who has real issues being by herself, I'm talking about on the smallest scale. Her calendar has to be completely full at all times. If she is approaching the weekend and hasn't locked in what she is doing with a man, with girlfriends, church mates, etc., Friday, Sat and Sunday, she goes into panic mode. If no one is available, she'll guilt her teenage son to stay home with her instead of hanging with his friends.

Whenever she's like "OMG, I don't have anything to do this weekend", I'm like "girl, why not go to the gym (has a membership she doesn't use), bookstore, reorganize your closet, take yourself to lunch, the movies, you know, spend some time with yourself". What I get back is "Girl, I'm not like you, I'm real extroverted, I have to be doing stuff". I know it is an attempt at subtle shade, but I pay it no mind, b/c I know what it is about . I know she masks her extreme unease with being by herself as extroversion. But it ends up coming across as desperation at times, particularly with men. She ends up doing stupid stuff like texting/calling guys who she hasn't heard from in weeks. They smell the desperation and react as expected by either declining her dates, not showing up or if they do, allowing her to pay.

My thing is, if you never take time to be alone with yourself, when is there time for self reflection/analysis/development? I feel that is important to understand who you are and what you want out of life.

I think people hold on to saying things like this as an excuse. It has some truth to it, but it really becomes an excuse because it is what they are used to doing all their lives.

 

[Silkycoils]

I think this is so important, truly liking who you are, independent of interacting with others. I have a good friend, 40+ years old, who has real issues being by herself, I'm talking about on the smallest scale. Her calendar has to be completely full at all times. If she is approaching the weekend and hasn't locked in what she is doing with a man, with girlfriends, church mates, etc., Friday, Sat and Sunday, she goes into panic mode. If no one is available, she'll guilt her teenage son to stay home with her instead of hanging with his friends.

Whenever she's like "OMG, I don't have anything to do this weekend", I'm like "girl, why not go to the gym (has a membership she doesn't use), bookstore, reorganize your closet, take yourself to lunch, the movies, you know, spend some time with yourself". What I get back is "Girl, I'm not like you, I'm real extroverted, I have to be doing stuff". I know it is an attempt at subtle shade, but I pay it no mind, b/c I know what it is about . I know she masks her extreme unease with being by herself as extroversion. But it ends up coming across as desperation at times, particularly with men. She ends up doing stupid stuff like texting/calling guys who she hasn't heard from in weeks. They smell the desperation and react as expected by either declining her dates, not showing up or if they do, allowing her to pay.

My thing is, if you never take time to be alone with yourself, when is there time for self reflection/analysis/development? I feel that is important to understand who you are and what you want out of life.

Through much introspection and self-help, I discovered that the root of past self-esteem issues was my fear of rejection and abandonment. This is further rooted in the belief that you aren't "good enough." I actually asked myself why I acted the way that I did with men, and I listened and a small voice said, "Because you don't think you're good enough." I was floored! I'm not someone who walked around with my shoulders slumped and what not, but this was my underlying belief and it manifested itself in my poor choices in men and so-called "friends." Anywho, I decided then (around 37) to change for GOOD!

Now, I won't say that I don't deal with a twinge (the tiniest amount due to memories) of rejection fear from time-to-time, but I have absolutely NO fear of abandonment because I know that I always have ME (and the Creator). So whereas I might've tolerated poor treatment in my past out of fear, my mindset now is, "Shoot, you can go! I'm good over here."

I sometimes wonder why I had to experience the amount of pain that I have, and why I've been by myself for most of my adult life. Besides uncovering self-sabotaging behavior, it was to show me that I COULD be alone. I am consciously making an effort to detach from people and things. This doesn't mean I don't have close relationships, because I do. Detachment removes the fear element because life is cyclical but I am the center of my Universe. If someone leaves, they are making room for someone else. But no matter what, I am whole and complete.

 

[Saludable84]

I What I get back is "Girl, I'm not like you, I'm real extroverted, I have to be doing stuff".

I know plenty of extroverts who are not like this. Doing stuff and being around people when doing stuff are two different things.

 

[Southernbella.]

I think this is so important, truly liking who you are, independent of interacting with others. I have a good friend, 40+ years old, who has real issues being by herself, I'm talking about on the smallest scale. Her calendar has to be completely full at all times. If she is approaching the weekend and hasn't locked in what she is doing with a man, with girlfriends, church mates, etc., Friday, Sat and Sunday, she goes into panic mode. If no one is available, she'll guilt her teenage son to stay home with her instead of hanging with his friends.

Whenever she's like "OMG, I don't have anything to do this weekend", I'm like "girl, why not go to the gym (has a membership she doesn't use), bookstore, reorganize your closet, take yourself to lunch, the movies, you know, spend some time with yourself". What I get back is "Girl, I'm not like you, I'm real extroverted, I have to be doing stuff". I know it is an attempt at subtle shade, but I pay it no mind, b/c I know what it is about . I know she masks her extreme unease with being by herself as extroversion. But it ends up coming across as desperation at times, particularly with men. She ends up doing stupid stuff like texting/calling guys who she hasn't heard from in weeks. They smell the desperation and react as expected by either declining her dates, not showing up or if they do, allowing her to pay.

My thing is, if you never take time to be alone with yourself, when is there time for self reflection/analysis/development? I feel that is important to understand who you are and what you want out of life.

This, this, this.

I think many of us (humans in general) don't truly love or even like ourselves and only see the "me" that is reflected back through the eyes of others.

It sounds cliche but the key to high self esteem and self worth is loving yourself, the REAL self you see through your own eyes. For me, having that period of solitude was everything because it allowed me to really, truly get to know me.

Once you've done that work, then it's easy glide through the rest of your life on a pedestal because you truly believe that's where you belong.

 

[PrissiSippi]

I looove it when we have good topics like these. Thank you to everyone that has added something so far. Happy Holidays ladies

 

[Daina]

Ladies this is a great topic! Is it possible though to change this dynamic when already married? Even leaning back is difficult although I've been able to do it in small doses. I did way too much before we got married...I'm working on forgiving myself and letting some things go and do more self work for me. I know my DH has seen some of the changes and when I've leaned back he has definitely leaned forward most times. Other times I've been accused of changing or being selfish. So just curious what others think for those already married?

 

[Saludable84]

I know my DH has seen some of the changes and when I've leaned back he has definitely leaned forward most times. Other times I've been accused of changing or being selfish. So just curious what others think for those already married?

Hopefully, other can chime in. I enjoy @hopeful advice I’ve read through several threads and I’d like to learn for the second time around .

As for what’s quoted, just going by what you’ve said, some of the changes can be too sudden (you changing) and you could be leaning back too much (selfish). I don’t think it’s wrong, but if it comes off that he’s always giving and he isn’t receiving, it could seem selfish. Not saying you are, but it may take time to incorporate what you’re learning and you may need sift through what works and what doesn’t. If it’s something he isn’t used to, it can just also take time.

 

[moneychaser]

This, this, this.

I think many of us (humans in general) don't truly love or even like ourselves and only see the "me" that is reflected back through the eyes of others.

It sounds cliche but the key to high self esteem and self worth is loving yourself, the REAL self you see through your own eyes. For me, having that period of solitude was everything because it allowed me to really, truly get to know me.

Once you've done that work, then it's easy glide through the rest of your life on a pedestal because you truly believe that's where you belong.

YESS. This thread reminds me of the spartan secret GL Lambert talked about in his book "Men dont Love Women Like You."

 

[Daina]

Hopefully, other can chime in. I enjoy @hopeful advice I’ve read through several threads and I’d like to learn for the second time around .

As for what’s quoted, just going by what you’ve said, some of the changes can be too sudden (you changing) and you could be leaning back too much (selfish). I don’t think it’s wrong, but if it comes off that he’s always giving and he isn’t receiving, it could seem selfish. Not saying you are, but it may take time to incorporate what you’re learning and you may need sift through what works and what doesn’t. If it’s something he isn’t used to, it can just also take time.

Yeah I've been trying to pick and choose wisely for sure. I wish it was the case that he was giving and not receiving then I could understand for sure. The issue is and I fully blame myself that I gave way too much to what I know and see now was not much from him. He's not giving more in anyway just mad because I pulled back and have been mirroring his actions. Now that the shoe is on the other foot he doesn't like it.

I'm struggling with reclaiming myself and my voice. My husband as I have learned is a bit of a narcissist and I am also now learning when he's trying to gaslight me for a response.

 

[PrissiSippi]

Ladies this is a great topic! Is it possible though to change this dynamic when already married? Even leaning back is difficult although I've been able to do it in small doses. I did way too much before we got married...I'm working on forgiving myself and letting some things go and do more self work for me. I know my DH has seen some of the changes and when I've leaned back he has definitely leaned forward most times. Other times I've been accused of changing or being selfish. So just curious what others think for those already married?

Law 45 from Laws of Power is Never Reform Too Much At Once.

I really think I changed waaaaay too fast for my ex-husband. I went from taking care of all the problems, paying half on the bills, taking care of him and I (then adding a baby), and being very very very giving...and then in the course of 6 months I went to staying at home full time, cooking and cleaning more (which meant he was expected to do the masculine duties more), not paying the majority of the bills, taking care of myself first and foremost, and leaning back and requiring him to step up. IT SCARED HIM TO DEATH. I think he often wondered "Why make the change NOW?"

My advice would be to make it a really gradual change. So gradual that he doesn't even detect it. Now on the specifics on how to do that.... I don't know. I'm hoping the more experienced people can give more insight on this.

 

[Evolving78]

Yeah I've been trying to pick and choose wisely for sure. I wish it was the case that he was giving and not receiving then I could understand for sure. The issue is and I fully blame myself that I gave way too much to what I know and see now was not much from him. He's not giving more in anyway just mad because I pulled back and have been mirroring his actions. Now that the shoe is on the other foot he doesn't like it.

I'm struggling with reclaiming myself and my voice. My husband as I have learned is a bit of a narcissist and I am also now learning when he's trying to gaslight me for a response.

I would do some research on cognitive dissonance in marital relationships.

 

[Saludable84]

I would do some research on cognitive dissonance in marital relationships.

I see where you are going with this and I agree. However, I think, we as women can accept this view because we are forever evolving and men, well, they grow, but evolving is different. Men and women can have different views and with “change”, women expect for it to keep happening and men don’t. It’s that whole acceptance thing. I’ve heard men complain about it before, especially after marriage.

I’d like to hear your opinions though because it’s really good food for thought.

 

[Daina]

I would do some research on cognitive dissonance in marital relationships.

So can you expound more, I'm familiar with the concept but would like to hear your thoughts? Thanks!

 

[hopeful]

Ladies this is a great topic! Is it possible though to change this dynamic when already married? Even leaning back is difficult although I've been able to do it in small doses. I did way too much before we got married...I'm working on forgiving myself and letting some things go and do more self work for me. I know my DH has seen some of the changes and when I've leaned back he has definitely leaned forward most times. Other times I've been accused of changing or being selfish. So just curious what others think for those already married?

You have to decide what is MOST important to you. Your well being and happiness or being married. Of course we all want both but you have to choose IMO. You have to rank your priorities.

If a guy is truly narcissistic or emotionally abusive, neglectful, manipulative etc. there are no baby steps, no guiding him, no giving him time etc. because one, he will see right through it and undermine you, two that approach keeps him at the center of your life, three truly manipulative, abusive men RARELY IF EVER make permanent changes. And four, the longer you are in his web the harder it is for you to ever be happy or even know what happiness even looks or feels like anymore because you end up being in a fog (fear/obligation/guilt) which prevents you from seeing or thinking clearly.

The book Why Does He Do That? (Inside the Minds of Angry & Controlling Men) By Lundy Bancroft explains a lot about why some men behave the way they do. And it’s never the woman’s fault and consequently never her job to fix and never possible for her to fix. I will also add that when it’s subtle it’s almost worse because your mind is always in overdrive trying to figure out what he is up to, what he really meant by that, why is everything so hard, why can’t I figure this out?

So, in a healthy relationship you should always be able to lean back because there is genuine care and reciprocity. You are leaning back because he did. You are leaning back in response to HIS behavior but then it’s you who is being mean and selfish? Really? I lean back with everyone now: friends, my adult children, cashiers, neighbors lol. You lean back, I lean back. And if you lean back too often and for too long then I move on. And I wish you would think you have the right to be angry that l leaned back in response to you leaning back. That is simply how life works.

Natalie Lue’s book Love Care Trust & Respect speaks to how all of our relationships should work. Her website Baggage Reclaim is filled with golden nuggets of relationship wisdom.

I wish you the best. No matter what your husband’s issue is you deserve to be happy and to feel safe and loved. And partnered with. Both people should be rowing in a healthy relationship.

And at the root of all frustrating relationships is US. It starts and begins with us and our healing which is why so many of us keep talking about the book Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. It’s an amazing book and an eye opener. You have to figure out how to reorient yourself to making you be the main attraction in your life: not husbands, not kids, not a marriage. Then you let the chips fall where they may — and that is the hardest part of all. Letting go.

 

[PrissiSippi]

@Daina that website is https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/ Thank you @hopeful for posting about it. I've been looking through her blog all week.

 

[Evolving78]

I see where you are going with this and I agree. However, I think, we as women can accept this view because we are forever evolving and men, well, they grow, but evolving is different. Men and women can have different views and with “change”, women expect for it to keep happening and men don’t. It’s that whole acceptance thing. I’ve heard men complain about it before, especially after marriage.

I’d like to hear your opinions though because it’s really good food for thought.

I agree with you as well. i believe evolving and changing are two different concepts. Evolving or evolution is a process since it just adds to what is already there. Change is like going from being a meat eater to a vegetarian! lol! Men don't do well with change, but development and growth brings on less resistance.


cognitive dissonance is where we get caught up in the idea that if we do things, or behave a certain way in the relationship, we will get what we need in return, or if our mate behaves a certain way, then we will be able to give and be what they need. It is controlling and manipulating on both sides of the coin. Seeking validation constantly outside of self will turn a person into being needy and a dependent. Nothing said or done will ever be enough. A person will end up emotionally bankrupt. and if a person hasn't become aware of what's really going on, he or she will do more things externally to win someone over. As a lot of ladies have mentioned here, We gotta love ourselves and know our value! and if We don't have all of that established, then we gotta go through the process and do the work! It may time some time. it isn't something that can be rushed.

 

[hopeful]

Another part of cognitive dissonance is when a man says I love you but you don’t feel loved by him, when he promises to do things again and again but rarely follows through. It confuses our minds. Our minds try to make sense of what is happening.

From Wikipedia:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by that person.

 

[Daina]

You have to decide what is MOST important to you. Your well being and happiness or being married. Of course we all want both but you have to choose IMO. You have to rank your priorities.

If a guy is truly narcissistic or emotionally abusive, neglectful, manipulative etc. there are no baby steps, no guiding him, no giving him time etc. because one, he will see right through it and undermine you, two that approach keeps him at the center of your life, three truly manipulative, abusive men RARELY IF EVER make permanent changes. And four, the longer you are in his web the harder it is for you to ever be happy or even know what happiness even looks or feels like anymore because you end up being in a fog (fear/obligation/guilt) which prevents you from seeing or thinking clearly.

The book Why Does He Do That? (Inside the Minds of Angry & Controlling Men) By Lundy Bancroft explains a lot about why some men behave the way they do. And it’s never the woman’s fault and consequently never her job to fix and never possible for her to fix. I will also add that when it’s subtle it’s almost worse because your mind is always in overdrive trying to figure out what he is up to, what he really meant by that, why is everything so hard, why can’t I figure this out?

So, in a healthy relationship you should always be able to lean back because there is genuine care and reciprocity. You are leaning back because he did. You are leaning back in response to HIS behavior but then it’s you who is being mean and selfish? Really? I lean back with everyone now: friends, my adult children, cashiers, neighbors lol. You lean back, I lean back. And if you lean back too often and for too long then I move on. And I wish you would think you have the right to be angry that l leaned back in response to you leaning back. That is simply how life works.

Natalie Lue’s book Love Care Trust & Respect speaks to how all of our relationships should work. Her website Baggage Reclaim is filled with golden nuggets of relationship wisdom.

I wish you the best. No matter what your husband’s issue is you deserve to be happy and to feel safe and loved. And partnered with. Both people should be rowing in a healthy relationship.

And at the root of all frustrating relationships is US. It starts and begins with us and our healing which is why so many of us keep talking about the book Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. It’s an amazing book and an eye opener. You have to figure out how to reorient yourself to making you be the main attraction in your life: not husbands, not kids, not a marriage. Then you let the chips fall where they may — and that is the hardest part of all. Letting go.

@hopeful, thank you coming in and sharing and thank you for the book recommendations I am going to look into getting them.

 

[Daina]

I agree with you as well. i believe evolving and changing are two different concepts. Evolving or evolution is a process since it just adds to what is already there. Change is like going from being a meat eater to a vegetarian! lol! Men don't do well with change, but development and growth brings on less resistance.


cognitive dissonance is where we get caught up in the idea that if we do things, or behave a certain way in the relationship, we will get what we need in return, or if our mate behaves a certain way, then we will be able to give and be what they need. It is controlling and manipulating on both sides of the coin. Seeking validation constantly outside of self will turn a person into being needy and a dependent. Nothing said or done will ever be enough. A person will end up emotionally bankrupt. and if a person hasn't become aware of what's really going on, he or she will do more things externally to win someone over. As a lot of ladies have mentioned here, We gotta love ourselves and know our value! and if We don't have all of that established, then we gotta go through the process and do the work! It may time some time. it isn't something that can be rushed.

Thanks for giving additional context! Definitely a process for sure and not something I am rushing or willing to rush.

 

[Daina]

Another part of cognitive dissonance is when a man says I love you but you don’t feel loved by him, when he promises to do things again and again but rarely follows through. It confuses our minds. Our minds try to make sense of what is happening.

From Wikipedia:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by that person.

@hopeful, this right here - you hit the nail on the head...

 

[Evolving78]

Thanks for giving additional context! Definitely a process for sure and not something I am rushing or willing to rush.

"the process" was a general statement and not directed at you. again, please research cognitive dissonance within marital relationships.

 

[hopeful]

@hopeful, thank you coming in and sharing and thank you for the book recommendations I am going to look into getting them.

You’re welcome and good luck. PM me anytime. I suffered for years and am happy to help another woman avoid some of the unnecessary suffering if I can.

 

[Nefertiti0906]

Ladies this is a great topic! Is it possible though to change this dynamic when already married? Even leaning back is difficult although I've been able to do it in small doses. I did way too much before we got married...I'm working on forgiving myself and letting some things go and do more self work for me. I know my DH has seen some of the changes and when I've leaned back he has definitely leaned forward most times. Other times I've been accused of changing or being selfish. So just curious what others think for those already married?

@Daina I am actively doing this now. I’ll PM you

 

[Belle Du Jour]

What if you run into a man who wants to be chased? Who feels as if he is the prize and should be sought after. In fact he once said to me, in a joking manner, there is only room for one star in this show and that's me.

One complaint I get (and my Mom tries to make me feel bad about it) is that I don't say I love you enough or I miss you enough. I disagree. Also, he likes to stop calling me to wait for me to call him (even weeks) so the tips probably won't work well in this situation I'm guessing.

Run girl.
No but seriously, what do YOU want? Do you want to chase men? Do you want to be in control of the relationship? Do you want to do the thinking, planning, coordinating, etc? If not, you lean back into your feminine energy. The feminine energy men will not be able to hang and that OK. You have to get comfortable with low quality or feminine energy men falling away. That says nothing about you but tells you everything you need to know about them.

 

[Daina]

You’re welcome and good luck. PM me anytime. I suffered for years and am happy to help another woman avoid some of the unnecessary suffering if I can.

Thank you and I will definitely PM you.

 

[Daina]

@Daina I am actively doing this now. I’ll PM you

Thanks sis, look forward to hearing how you're approaching and what's working / not working for you.

 

[Ann816]

This isn't a man worthy to court you IMO based on this description. I would cut him off.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PrissiSippi]

I see where you are going with this and I agree. However, I think, we as women can accept this view because we are forever evolving and men, well, they grow, but evolving is different. Men and women can have different views and with “change”, women expect for it to keep happening and men don’t. It’s that whole acceptance thing. I’ve heard men complain about it before, especially after marriage.

I’d like to hear your opinions though because it’s really good food for thought.

I see the word evolve and I constantly get triggered. At the end of my relationship my ex-husband continued to "evolve" so to speak. It seemed every time he evolved....I had to as well. Even with this last guy I was dating for some time, he kept evolving and I HATED it because I had to level up to stay the prize and a challenge. It's sooo tiring to me. But I'm guessing with the right person.....it wouldn't be this tiring. *shrugs*