The View Talking About Good Hair

[Junebug D]

No, they weren't. They were braiding it. Just like we do nowadays! We spend crazy money on micro's, Senegalese Twists, Kinky Twists, etc both relaxed and natural heads so don't act like we don't embrace our roots too. We cornrow, flat twist, all of that good stuff.

Relaxing our hair used to be a way to fit in. I'm not denying that in the beginning Ms. Walker was trying to help Black women be acceptable according to those white standards.

But today, Black women couldn't care less about white standards! U see all the ridiculous colors they put in their hair?! U think red and yellow tracks is acceptable by the "white standards"?! Heck naw! But some of us do it cuz it's what WE like.

I dare u to go to the ATL hair show and count how many styles u see that are "acceptable to white standards."

The truth of the matter is, we do WHATEVER we want to our heads!

True, that's one thing that always gave me a little pause when arguing that point. How on earth do things like kool-aid red & neon blue weave and fingerwaves and stacks and things that were very popular & commonplace give the impression that the wearer was trying to fit a European beauty standard?

It's a more complicated thing than either side of the debate would care to admit. I don't believe "You're trying to be someone else/live up to white beauty standards" is entirely true, nor do I believe "it's a styling option" is entirely true either when you have such a large percentage of women doing it.

The truth is that it's continued to be done for a variety of reasons now. You cannot erase the history, but you can't negate the present experience either.

The reason why I think it's continued to be done on such a wide scale is that it's simply seen as the "norm" now and is often done out of ignorance, meaning a lack of knowledge. Of course that doesn't always apply to Suzie Q who's been on hair boards for years now & who grew up with "conscious" parents, but most black women aren't Suzie Q and they really just do not know any differently. I do think that's sad. We here on hair boards forget; but then I go talk to my female relatives & friends who aren't on the internet (now *without* condescension), and there's just a huge wall of ignorance about hair, period. We forget here in our little bubble.

 

[aribell]

Not quite sure how to phrase this, but I'll give it a shot. I think that enough time has passed that black people do not have to be considered as trying to fit a "European" ideal. We might be trying to fit a certain beauty ideal, but to identify it as "European" or "white" even, is misleading. That beauty ideal is the result of history, of global trends, of practical considerations, of current fads, etc. It isn't about identifying with white people for the most part, esp. given that while most black women relax their hair, "typical black" hairstyles (insofar as they exist) aren't anything that you could get in a white hair salon. It's its own unique thing. All cultures go through this when they are exposed to other cultures.

 

[jamaraa]

All I can say is after reading this thread (and joining the board really), I have felt bad for having relaxed hair.

I'm confused. I mean, am I less of an AA woman because I choose to??? But, I don't want anybody jumping on me--those are just my feelings at the moment.

Why do you feel bad about it? It's your choice. You're no less of an AA woman...that's silly.

Don't let others get you down. if they were so happy as naturals, they'd not be so concerned about what others are doing. Insecurity yells from the rooftops, doncha know! Take the info that's useful to you and let the rest go. Sometimes I have fun here....like on this thread.

 

[BroadstreetBully]

...yes because China alone w/ it's 2/5ths of the entire population on Earth and along w/ the rest of East Asia is somehow "abnormal".
Newflash...most of the people on the planet have "the fold".

That is NOT what I was getting at.

In a globalized world, people aren't looking at those within their own group, but outside of their own group. It doesn't matter how many East Asians there are, to them,...they feel different in that respect. We feel different when it comes to our hair. Some feel different when it comes to their complexion, height, whatever.

I'm not denying the European influence on worldwide beauty standards since they hold dominance in the media. However, black women aren't the ONLY women out there who have adopted beauty practices that go against what we are naturally.

 

[Celestial]

Euros are the least common group by population of the Earth's inhabitants.

When it comes to aesthetics and hair euros fit into the rest of the world and black people are left on their own. I'm not talking about European populations. I'm talking about how everyone in the world share similar features to what is considered "white features" or white standards. Unfortunately, it is the black African group that does not fit in. Asians can easily fit into the common world aesthetics when it comes to skin color and hair, but the black group can't even do that. Even brown or dark Indians can fit in when it comes to hair and features, but the black African group can't even do that. We are indeed truly different looking people, but there is probably a reason for that.

 

[BroadstreetBully]

Euros are the least common group by population of the Earth's inhabitants.

Least common, but most visible.

 

[Celestial]

Surely you jest! The most common color in the world to dye one's hair is red, true that.......but red is a genetic variation on blonde. Most WW have a tendency to go extreme in their hair color which really doesn't look all that hot on them, IMHO.

I only see this on rebellious teens or ww who are into a 'different' lifestyle. Maybe someone who live a Heavy metal lifestyle, gothic, bikers, tattoo lovers, all other types of artisty WW. Common every day black women just do strange elaborate things to their hair.

 

[jamaraa]

That is NOT what I was getting at.

In a globalized world, people aren't looking at those within their own group, but outside of their own group. It doesn't matter how many East Asians there are, to them,...they feel different in that respect. We feel different when it comes to our hair. Some feel different when it comes to their complexion, height, whatever.

I'm not denying the European influence on worldwide beauty standards since they hold dominance in the media. However, black women aren't the ONLY women out there who have adopted beauty practices that go against what we are naturally.

Globalized world my foot. This drama has been going on for centuries. People always want what they ain't got. Human nature. That doesn't mean they see themselves as "abnormal" nor should they.

Obviously Black women are not the only ones....whoever said they were? This idea of what's "normal" or not is what I'm objecting to. Roll your eyes all you want, but anyone who sees themselves as "abnormal" because they lack or have a racial designed trait is screwed in the head. Don't blame that on globalization.

 

[pearlygurl]

I expected my opinion to offend since this is a great sore spot among black people, but it is what it is . My opinion still stands that black women perm to emulate the white standard of beauty. Too many of us do it, too many of us hold negative views of our natural hair...honestly where do you think this comes from? Honestly, think about it. I know it is difficult as there is a knee-jerk reaction surrounding the issue but try to look at it w/out the emotional piece. The manageability argument is a cop -out,. Manageability has nothing to do with it, black women who perm just prefer straighter hair bc of the negative messages associated with natural hair- that is fine and that is your prerogative if you want to relax, but let's call a spade a spade.

Yes manageability has everything to do with it. I prefer to wear straight styles (yes I love that swang ) and having a relaxer allows me to do it easily. I grew up in a household where my natural hair wasn't a bad thing. My family never used the terms good hair or nappy so growing up I never had a complex about my hair. I don't hate my natural texture but I do like the look of straight hair...so what?

 

[jamaraa]

Least common, but most visible.

Yes...most visible, tho not most populous.

 

[AfroKink]

That is NOT what I was getting at.

In a globalized world, people aren't looking at those within their own group, but outside of their own group. It doesn't matter how many East Asians there are, to them,...they feel different in that respect. We feel different when it comes to our hair. Some feel different when it comes to their complexion, height, whatever.

I'm not denying the European influence on worldwide beauty standards since they hold dominance in the media. However, black women aren't the ONLY women out there who have adopted beauty practices that go against what we are naturally.

Let's explore the bolded. Why is some different good and some different not good? Blond hair is unique, different but blonds aren't dying their hair darker by the masses. Type 4 hair is unique, different, and type 4s ARE straightening their hair by the masses. Blue eyes are unique, different but blue eyed folks aren't puttin gin contacts or flying to panama for dangerous surgeries.

So why are some differences praised and coveted while others are not?

 

[darlingdiva]

Greaterplexed now there will be white people thinking it's pc to ask me about my hair. I recently had to correct the lady at Sally's who said that Blacks use - not can use - heavier oils. I told her that it's not like everybody has the exact same hair. She was talking about argan oil available there now and how her hair is so fine that it's for all races. These are the folks who will usher you to the Black section despite what it is you had in your mind to buy for your own hair.

And another misperception is that Black people have thick hair. We're either all 1 thing or all another...never individuals with a myriad of differences...so now, great erplexed, another reason for somebody white to ask me about my hair just cause they saw The View and that makes it pc.

I already pushed the "thank you" button, but I had to come in and thank you again for this post.

I am sick of so many European people thinking that all people of African descent have thick hair. We don't all have thick hair (I don't.).

I'm also tired of being ushered to the "ethnic" section of the store. I was in Ricky's a few weeks ago, looking at some Joico products. While I was browsing, the Caucasian sales associate found it necessary to tell me (while staring at my twist-out) that I should try to locate the people from curls.biz (they were walking around outside) and get a sample product from them because their products are for curly hair.

 

[Celestial]

...yes because China alone w/ it's 2/5ths of the entire population on Earth and along w/ the rest of East Asia is somehow "abnormal".
Newflash...most of the people on the planet have "the fold".

Newflash, most people on the planet don't have the fold, not even everyone in east Asian. Folds are more common on Mongol type and not the polynesian or Indonesian, micronesian, etc... type. The philippines, Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand are filled with people who doesn't have the famous Mongol fold. The fold is common amongst Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. Even the Nepalese and Tibetans don't all have the folds and let's not rule out ethnic groups in China who doesn't have it.

 

[jamaraa]

I only see this on rebellious teens or ww who are into a 'different' lifestyle. Maybe someone who live a Heavy metal lifestyle, gothic, bikers, tattoo lovers, all other types of artisty WW. Common every day black women just do strange elaborate things to their hair.

Compared to what...non Blacks? I know what you're getting at, but there are plenty of people who do things to their hair that others might view as odd, but that's more about the cultural orientation of the viewer.

 

[DDTexlaxed]

I relaxed because I had no knowledge of how to care for and maintain natural hair. Frankly, I'm still scared of going natural, even though I am transitioning. I always worry that my hair is going to look stupid due to my non styling skills.

 

[jamaraa]

Newflash, most people on the planet don't have the fold, not even everyone in east Asian. Folds are more common on Mongol type and not the polynesian or Indonesian, micronesian, etc... type. The philippines, Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand are filled with people who doesn't have the famous Mongol fold. The fold is common amongst Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. Even the Nepalese and Tibetans don't all have the folds and let's not rule out ethnic groups in China who doesn't have it.

You're tripping, you really are in these posts...tho I must admit this is fun. Not often do we see a member of a broad about the care of Black hair going on about how abnormal it is and how many Chinese have the fold. LOL...just straighten your hair and "be normal".

The fold is much more common in East and South East Asia pops than it is not. Filippinos are a very mixed race population as are some of the other pops you named (Neplalis, Tibetans, etc...) but the fold is not uncommon in those cultures either. In short, there are more people with the fold than not in the world populations.

 

[Raspberry]

yt beauty stds are "the norm"

y is normal not what grows from our heads? Because we are influenced by others

True, but I do agree with others who have said that relaxing is mostly about normalcy for the average black woman nowadays. It is only over the past decade that we've been encouraged to think deeper about a process that used to seem like the obvious grown up hair choice. Lots of relaxed hair style and weaves look nothing like straight Asian or caucasion hair.

White beauty standards influence folks worldwide of course, but I would even say that black american women are fairly resistant to them in key ways. For example, if we were really all about the European aesthetic, why are so many of us cool with being overweight or obese? That's huge departure from what white folks value, and straight hair doesn't trump the weight thing in any way.

I do believe relaxed hair started out as a way to downplay black features but I think we normalized straight hair in a uniquely black way - so now it's hard for many black women to think seriously of the European aesthetic that originally fostered the relaxing norm.

 

[Daughter]

That is because he is black and know more about black women than other women. He would understand the culture of black women better than speaking for white women, Asian women, Indian women etc...He did mention about his S-curl and did mention other women altering their hair. "Good Hair" is a black women issue; it is not an everybody issue so the film need to be bias and one-sided to keep the focus and get to the crux of the matter. I will go to see the movie this weekend.

I meant focusing on black women and not what black men are like with their hair. Maybe cos we spend more money on it...

 

[Celestial]

Let's explore the bolded. Why is some different good and some different not good? Blond hair is unique, different but blonds aren't dying their hair darker by the masses. Type 4 hair is unique, different, and type 4s ARE straightening their hair by the masses. Blue eyes are unique, different but blue eyed folks aren't puttin gin contacts or flying to panama for dangerous surgeries.

So why are some differences praised and coveted while others are not?

Those who dye their hair blond do so because they look good in it. Blondes usually don't color their hair to another color but it doesn't carry well. Blacks straighten their hair because they look good in it. Whites will not look good in nappy hair and for the most part neither would anyone else; however they will perm it to make it curly. Most people who have blue eyes look well in them, those who don't like their color and think they look better in another color will wear contacts mainly green. Some differences are praised over others because some difference look better than others when done right. Black women with straight hair looks good, but I don't know how well that will play out with a white women with nappy hair. Blonde hair and blue eyes goes well, but I don't know how well a natural blonde with blue eyes would look with dark/black contact lenses or black/dark hair. When you know your potential you can make it look right. I actually think black women have more versatility and can do better to accentuate their potentials.

 

[Celestial]

You're tripping, you really are in these posts...tho I must admit this is fun. Not often do we see a member of a broad about the care of Black hair going on about how abnormal it is and how many Chinese have the fold. LOL...just straighten your hair and "be normal".

The fold is much more common in East and South East Asia pops than it is not. Filippinos are a very mixed race population as are some of the other pops you named (Neplalis, Tibetans, etc...) but the fold is not uncommon in those cultures either. In short, there are more people with the fold than not in the world populations.

I don't know what you are trying to say. Folds do not make up the majority of people's eyes. It makes up the majority of mongol type populations in Asia, but within that region there are still millions who do not carry the fold and majority of them are found in Nepal, Tibet, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and not to rule out the million of ethnic groups in China that does not have it. Majority of folds come from China, Japan, and Korea. I never said that black hair is "abnormal." I said it is straight hair that is normal and nappy hair of blacks that is different. That is true. Majority of the world has straight hair. Nappy rough hair is only common amongst black African people. Yes, black people straighten their hair to have what is "normal" and that is straight hair.

 

[AfroKink]

Those who dye their hair blond do so because they look good in it. Blondes usually don't color their hair to another color but it doesn't carry well. Blacks straighten their hair because they look good in it. Whites will not look good in nappy hair and for the most part neither would anyone else; however they will perm it to make it curly. Most people who have blue eyes look well in them, those who don't like their color and think they look better in another color will wear contacts mainly green. Some differences are praised over others because some difference look better than others when done right. Black women with straight hair looks good, but I don't know how well that will play out with a white women with nappy hair. Blonde hair and blue eyes goes well, but I don't know how well a natural blonde with blue eyes would look with dark/black contact lenses or black/dark hair. When you know your potential you can make it look right. I actually think black women have more versatility and can do better to accentuate their potentials.

How did/do you determine what 'looks good' or 'looks well'? Are you speaking about your own preferences or have you generalized to include everyone's opinions?

 

[Celestial]

Compared to what...non Blacks? I know what you're getting at, but there are plenty of people who do things to their hair that others might view as odd, but that's more about the cultural orientation of the viewer.

No, compared to blacks and everyone else in the world.

 

[Celestial]

How did/do you determine what 'looks good' or 'looks well'? Are you speaking about your own preferences or have you generalized to include everyone's opinions?

I answered several questions she had in mind. Black women with straighten hair looks good; I don't know too much about a white women or any other race with nappy hair. White women who dye their hair blonde carry it well, but I don't know too much about natural blondes going dark/black or even brown. Majority of them probably wouldn't carry it well. Blonde hair blue eyes goes well so you are not going to see a bunch of blue eye people buying brown/black contacts, etc...

 

[AfroKink]

I answered several questions she had in mind. Black women with straighten hair looks good; I don't know too much about a white women or any other race with nappy hair. White women who dye their hair blonde carry it well, but I don't know too much about natural blondes going dark/black or even brown. Majority of them probably wouldn't carry it well. Blonde hair blue eyes goes well so you are not going to see a bunch of blue eye people buying brown/black contacts, etc...

? okay...

well. My questions are open to anyone else that wants to give it a try

Lys

 

[BroadstreetBully]

Globalized world my foot. This drama has been going on for centuries. People always want what they ain't got. Human nature. That doesn't mean they see themselves as "abnormal" nor should they.

Obviously Black women are not the only ones....whoever said they were? This idea of what's "normal" or not is what I'm objecting to. Roll your eyes all you want, but anyone who sees themselves as "abnormal" because they lack or have a racial designed trait is screwed in the head. Don't blame that on globalization.

Well perhaps we are misunderstanding one another.

I only speak in terms of beauty standards, not science. I am not trying to suggest that type 4 hair is an abnormal feature, but that it's not common enough in a variety of populations to make it a 'norm' that people are used to and comfortable with. As a natural, I adore how unique my hair is, I see it as a blessing, but people with my type of hair stand out when compared to other groups. I embrace that, but not everyone will.

I don't deny the influence that Europeans have had in setting this standard, but I do realize that there is more to it.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

You cannot erase the history, but you can't negate the present experience either.

I wish more people could grasp this concept.

 

[jennboo]

You should have expected your opinion to offend, because it is an assumption based on your own particular bias. You also NOW state that it's your opinion, when in your OP, and in this one you purport it as fact. It's simply not. I didn't get a perm at age 11 to look white, I got it because I had waist-length hair that I couldn't comb myself. You continually to speak for black women who perm, but how can you, if you are not permed yourself? Or were you? And did you do so because you were impacted by negative messages associated with your natural hair?

That's a personal issue, not one you can deflect on anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's transferrence The fact that you felt the need to weigh in at all given your "afro puffs" indicates that more than likely you are trying to "prove something" because all the negativity regarding your natural hair has gotten to you. You're never truly free until you feel you can do whatever you want, without regard to what white people think.

Oh I def. have a bias, and it is toward my own natural hair/beauty . Sadly this is not the case with most black women.

It is my opinion that black women relax their hair to attain a white standard of beauty. It just so happens that important historical (and current) evidence (facts) actually support my opinion, there is no way of getting around that. If this is not your opinion, that is fine and I respect that

I fell victim to the belief that straighter hair was more acceptable. Thus, even though my mother was the person who directly initiated the process of indoctrinating that belief (by relaxing my hair), I chose to stick with it as a teenager because it was more acceptable and because it was seen as more beautiful. Not because it was more manageable, (which is the default excuse for perming around these parts). My hair was MOST manageable when i wore it nappturally-natural during parts of my adolescence.

My wanting to be true to myself and stop chemicalizing was due to my envy of other natural type 4 haired classmates, my evolved preference for the look of natural black hair, hair that i naturally possessed. The icing on the cake was when i really took into consideration the historical context surrounding white appeal to blacks (subjugation of Africans by whites, forced assimilation and resulting deadening/stripping of Africans racial and cultural identity, imposing white ideals about beauty/"sophistication"/acceptablility on africans and afr-americans, I found that it could neither be a "preference" nor a coincidence that more than 80% of black women relax their hair, and why many think it is unacceptable to wear their hair in its natural form and are willing to apply a caustic chemical to our heads to attain white ideals of beauty.

This issue is larger than me, it is larger than you. But please believe that it certainly IS an issue in the black community and until we find a way to overcome it we will still be at the mercy of others' ideals of beauty and subsequect resentment when we aren't able to fully attain it.

Its also funny how my wearing afro puffs and being natural plants suspicions about some kind of motive., LOL. As if i couldn't just genuinely be happy about and love my natural texture.This speaks volumes about what black women really internalize about natural hair. (LOL). This is sad, but i guess it is what it is.

Oh and i COMPLETELY agree with the bolded . This is what i try to tell folks all the time!

 

[jamaraa]

As for dying the hair blonde....how many Arabs and Jews do y'all know? It's very common there, even under hijab.

 

[Ang!]

Go on and preach! Hair comes and goes - BUT TANNING, CERTAIN BUTT IMPLANTS AND CERTAIN LIP INJECTION COULD KILL YOU!

 

[aribell]

Go on and preach! Hair comes and goes - BUT TANNING, CERTAIN BUTT IMPLANTS AND CERTAIN LIP INJECTION COULD KILL YOU!

Yep. Melanoma skin cancer and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le20RLGJVD8