The View Talking About Good Hair

[CoilyFields]

Just the very fact that we knew what "good hair" was referring to without ever having seen the movie shows us that we are not as progressive as we wish we were. LHCF is sometimes a haven where no one would EVER be so gauche as to use the term "good hair" or another euphamism but IRL we ALL know that total acceptance of natural hair among african americans is still far off. Nappy hair is hated/disliked/hidden/covered up and hair more resembling WHITE PEOPLE'S (type 3 and above) is revered.

A relaxer does not make your hair like a yt persons but its closer and how many of us drool over that "swang"? When the girl on Tyra's show called it "that white girl swang" people were up in arms offended...but isnt that the actual goal? I dont know ANY black women that prefer their wraps or rollersets to be stiff and not move. We want "body" and that...swang. But we dare not admit that we prefer straighter silkier swangin hair to natural coarse hair that floats around our heads in a halo rather than flows down our backs like...others

 

[carameldelight87]

it's not so much about looking "white", but preferring features that aren't typical of those of sub-Saharan African descent.

In your family, yes you may have the authority to speak on that. But spreading that to include all, most, or even some OTHER Black women is wrong.

I agree there are women who don't like being Black, who want to claim some other race to consider themselves multi-racial, etc. A relaxer doesn't mean that, though. That's my issue. A relaxer does not make a woman look any less Black at all.

People discount the fact that the media has a LOT to do with how Black women dress, act, do their hair, etc. If more Black women were natural in the media, more Black women in general would be. That's just the way it is.

 

[Celestial]

I swear some of y'all natural sisters make me want put a relaxer in my head just so I don't have to be on this side of ur condescending generalizations. I don't even want to associate with the ideas you girls are entertaining.

U've got to be the most simple-minded person on earth to think that Black women want to be white because of their relaxers. Or that they're concerned with the "white standard of beauty." I'm really embarrassed that u think u can look or talk down to someone simply because u made the decision to go natural.

I understand what you are saying. I'm natural but I never advocate to people why they straighten their hair or tell people they are trying to look white. I straighten my own hair sometimes and I know I'm not trying to look white.

 

[FluffyRed]

we have internalized a beauty standard that is heavily influenced by yt beauty standards.

it's not as simple as "trying to be yt."

we had a thread with a black male that cannot accept natural hair on his black wife, and a lot of women sympathized with him on that thread.

 

[Hairsofab]

I swear some of y'all natural sisters make me want put a relaxer in my head just so I don't have to be on this side of ur condescending generalizations. I don't even want to associate with the ideas you girls are entertaining.

U've got to be the most simple-minded person on earth to think that Black women want to be white because of their relaxers. Or that they're concerned with the "white standard of beauty." I'm really embarrassed that u think u can look or talk down to someone simply because u made the decision to go natural.

I don't think anyone (or anyone who admits) relaxes their hair consciously because the envy or want to be like white women. But european beauty standards definitely influence our hair styles. I don't see how anyone can get around that. Were our ancestors hot combing their hair in Africa? If not why not? Why weren't our ancestors flat ironing and finding chemicals to relax their hair straight?

 

[carameldelight87]

Just the very fact that we knew what "good hair" was referring to without ever having seen the movie shows us that we are not as progressive as we wish we were.

Knowing what Chris meant when he said he was doing a movie on "good hair" has nothing to do with our OWN perceptions or understanding of what good hair is. It makes us no less progressive than it does knowing what "tar baby" meant when Toni Morrison decided to write a book with that title.

 

[Daughter]

I swear some of y'all natural sisters make me want put a relaxer in my head just so I don't have to be on this side of ur condescending generalizations. I don't even want to associate with the ideas you girls are entertaining.

U've got to be the most simple-minded person on earth to think that Black women want to be white because of their relaxers. Or that they're concerned with the "white standard of beauty." I'm really embarrassed that u think u can look or talk down to someone simply because u made the decision to go natural.

I'm not saying that those with relaxers want to be white. On the contrary. Rather, that typically black features, in this instance type 4 hair, isn't as prized as others. That was my mindset, I took pains to say "some" or "many rather than ALL women felt the same way...

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Just the very fact that we knew what "good hair" was referring to without ever having seen the movie shows us that we are not as progressive as we wish we were.

I knew what this movie was referring to because of the reviews.

 

[newbiemom]

I don't think it is a deep rooted issue for everyone. Maybe if yu had some traumatic experience as a child or something to make you feel insecure. But some people just like how they look with straight hair. My bff is white and still uses a curly perm to get volume in her hair no one is crucifying her. Just because you are black doesn't mean you should limit your styling options so you can feel more black.

 

[CurlyMoo]

I understand what you are saying. I'm natural but I never advocate to people why they straighten their hair or tell people they are trying to look white. I straighten my own hair sometimes and I know I'm not trying to look white.

I agree, I don't think every person who straightens wants to be a White person. I think there are those that have a very busy lifestyle and want something quick and easy. I think there are those that have been raised to believe that a relaxer is the way to go. However, relaxers were created so that Black people could conform to the European standards of beauty. It is what it is. Many of us want that straight hair.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Asians, Europeans, East Indians, Native Americans, and Hispanics have straight hair. Well ok everybody but us.

No, not really. There are many wavy and kinky heads walking around that have no roots in Africa.

 

[JayAnn0513]

Some of us here need history lessons. When Garret Morgan accidentally invented the 1st relaxer he didn't market it to make hair more manageable. He marketed it as “G.A. Morgan's Hair Refiner Cream” (advertised to “Positively Straighten Hair in 15 Minutes”).

 

[it_comes_naturally]

I was thinking to myself, I didn't realize Barbara Walters was that ignorant to say "I thought black women were trying to be more like white women"? How long have black people been in this country? Clearly, white folks don't have a clue about our culture. I don't know of any black women that straighten their hair for the sake of trying to be white. Should black people also ask the question if white women are trying to be black by getting tans, lip injections, butt implants?

I'm wondering if she said this just to get folks going. I'm hoping she doesn't really believe that.

 

[carameldelight87]

Were our ancestors hot combing their hair in Africa? If not why not? Why weren't our ancestors flat ironing and finding chemicals to relax their hair straight?

No, they weren't. They were braiding it. Just like we do nowadays! We spend crazy money on micro's, Senegalese Twists, Kinky Twists, etc both relaxed and natural heads so don't act like we don't embrace our roots too. We cornrow, flat twist, all of that good stuff.

Relaxing our hair used to be a way to fit in. I'm not denying that in the beginning Ms. Walker was trying to help Black women be acceptable according to those white standards.

But today, Black women couldn't care less about white standards! U see all the ridiculous colors they put in their hair?! U think red and yellow tracks is acceptable by the "white standards"?! Heck naw! But some of us do it cuz it's what WE like.

I dare u to go to the ATL hair show and count how many styles u see that are "acceptable to white standards."

The truth of the matter is, we do WHATEVER we want to our heads!

 

[Daughter]

In your family, yes you may have the authority to speak on that. But spreading that to include all, most, or even some OTHER Black women is wrong.

I agree there are women who don't like being Black, who want to claim some other race to consider themselves multi-racial, etc. A relaxer doesn't mean that, though. That's my issue. A relaxer does not make a woman look any less Black at all.

People discount the fact that the media has a LOT to do with how Black women dress, act, do their hair, etc. If more Black women were natural in the media, more Black women in general would be. That's just the way it is.

With regard to your first paragraph, I totally agree, that's why I didn't say that all black women felt that way, it depends on how fanatical your family can be on the topic I wouldn't be surprised though if more people felt this way.

I do agree that the mass media has a lot to do with it, and for women in general. I had a conversation with a white co-worker about her hair and she told me that she felt far less confident about herself when she went brunette and dyes her hair pretty much monthly. I was actually quite shocked to hear how much that being blonde means to her.

When all is said and done, women of all backgrounds are sold lies, that there's something inherently wrong with us that needs to be fixed by some product or procedure that we can buy; how deeply this affects each of us, who knows?

 

[CurlyMoo]

No, not really. There are many wavy and kinky heads walking around that have no roots in Africa.

You do know that the Moors ruled parts of Europe and the Ancient Ethiopian empire spread from Africa throughout Aisa? So yes many of these groups do have Africa in them. Even if they don't I already mentioned that these groups have curly hair and some of them straighten their hair. Even amoung Black folks there are some with naturally straight hair. I'm speaking of the majority and an idea of what one is suppose to look like, which is what many of us view ourselves and others from.

 

[Leeda.the.Paladin]

I'm not going to type out everything I want to say on this show, but I really wish that people on these shows would stop speaking for the AA community as a whole. Just because you are black and a woman does not mean you can speak for me.

I love Whoopi, I enjoy Oprah (at times), and I dislike Sherry Shepard, but regardless of how I feel about them, I wish they would stop telling America their opinions as if they were fact.

Now I'm going to have coworkers telling me "Hey why don't you relax your hair, I saw on the View it makes it more manageable."

 

[FluffyRed]

if it were just about styling options and there were no extra value placed on one over the other, young yt women would be wearing afro perms as frequently as we are doing the reverse. I'm restricting this to young women, because this is prime man-catching age, when appearance matters most.

when we see the harajuku girls trying to look black, it's obvious who they're emulating. With us, it's been absorbed over generations, so the look you're reaching for may not be on a yt person, but look back to the aesthetic they're emulating, or the one before that

 

[JayAnn0513]

You do know that the Moors ruled parts of Europe and the Ancient Ethiopian empire spread from Africa throughout Aisa? So yes many of these groups do have Africa in them. Even if they don't I already mentioned that these groups have curly hair and some of them straighten their hair. Even amoung Black folks there are some with naturally straight hair. I'm speaking of the majority and an idea of what one is suppose to look like, which is what many of us view ourselves and others from.

That's the reason Italy has that slamming Alter Ego line, lol. I've heard many Italian women complain about their curls. Joy on The View is one of them.

 

[lovenharmony]

Just a pet peeve of mine but please....people with straight hair PERM their hair. People with curly hair RELAX it. Tis all...

 

[carameldelight87]

I'm not saying that those with relaxers want to be white. On the contrary. Rather, that typically black features, in this instance type 4 hair, isn't as prized as others. That was my mindset, I took pains to say "some" or "many rather than ALL women felt the same way...

I realize that. I was referring to other people who were making those "all" statements like jennboo. (idk if her name is spelled correctly)

 

[BroadstreetBully]

I expected my opinion to offend since this is a great sore spot among black people, but it is what it is . My opinion still stands that black women perm to emulate the white standard of beauty. Too many of us do it, too many of us hold negative views of our natural hair...honestly where do you think this comes from? Honestly, think about it. I know it is difficult as there is a knee-jerk reaction surrounding the issue but try to look at it w/out the emotional piece. The manageability argument is a cop -out,. Manageability has nothing to do with it, black women who perm just prefer straighter hair bc of the negative messages associated with natural hair- that is fine and that is your prerogative if you want to relax, but let's call a spade a spade.

Yikes. I started a somewhat controversial thread about something similar a while ago and this is the conclusion I came to.

It's not about conforming to a 'white' ideal, but a world ideal. All groups do this in one way or another. Whether or not we want to admit it, being able to have straight hair allows black women to fit in more with worldwide beauty standards. There is NOTHING wrong with that because all women do it. What makes us different is that our history of colonization hasn't allowed us to make a natural progression towards developing our own standards of beauty. They were forced upon us. Now it gets confusing because the history of these practices stem from self hatred but we're slowly transitioning into accepting these practices as fashion statements. Some black women today are relaxing because they think natural black hair is 'ugly and nappy', while others are relaxing because they like the straight look, but still love their natural hair and might plan to transition. Where do we draw the line?

What sets us apart from say, white women, is that a little white girl is unaware that her pale skin, thin lips, and flat bum isn't in fashion until she hits the age where she is expected to be superficial. The little black girl is taught from day one that she's too dark, too ethnic, and too nappy. That's why is much easier for white women to see their beauty practices as just that, while we're not quite sure how to feel about relaxers in 2009.

 

[CurlyMoo]

That's the reason Italy has that slamming Alter Ego line, lol. I've heard many Italian women complain about their curls. Joy on The View is one of them.

Yup, Italy has been mixing with Africa since the days of ancient Rome. Maybe evern before. Anywho the mixing has not stopped.

 

[Celestial]

I agree, I don't think every person who straightens wants to be a White person. I think there are those that have a very busy lifestyle and want something quick and easy. I think there are those that have been raised to believe that a relaxer is the way to go. However, relaxers were created so that Black people could conform to the European standards of beauty. It is what it is. Many of us want that straight hair.

Relaxers were created so blacks can "fix" their hair because it was too savage. Relaxing a nappy head will not make a black person conform to a european standard of beauty. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. Don't forget that Jherri curls and texturizers was made for the same reason, i.e, to make nappy hair more "normal" and to "fix" it. I know we will all agree that Jherri curl and a texturizer is not conforming to a white or european standard of beauty. I get what you're saying, though. Even if that is the case where relaxers are for black people to conform to a european standard of beauty that is not the reason why many do it today. Relaxers are the only thing that some black women know. I know some black women who went back to relaxers because they couldn't manage their hair and found it too time consuming. Straight hair is also the norm; that is the main reason I believe black women straighten their hair...simply to have it straight and give it that "normal" appeal. I'm not saying that there aren't black women who wishes to look white. I just don't think trying to look white is the purpose or the main reason.
I know for sure black women who straightens their hair have a lot of work to do if they are trying to conform to the white standard of beauty. I've never seen how straightening nappy hair was able to achieve that.

 

[CoilyFields]

Knowing what Chris meant when he said he was doing a movie on "good hair" has nothing to do with our OWN perceptions or understanding of what good hair is. It makes us no less progressive than it does knowing what "tar baby" meant when Toni Morrison decided to write a book with that title.

We know because it is a reality that is still with us today. "good hair" is still a very real standard in the black community. Many people still use the term...or a euphamism for it. It is very important for us to know the origins of our habits and the motivations that may be propelling them. Does this mean that i wake up in the morning and say i want to look white today so ima get a relaxer? For most of us...no. But when the majority of a culture is chemically altering a physical characteristic or sporting wigs and weaves that reesmbles the dominant culture then we have to realize that we have internalized a standard of beauty that is not intrinsically ours.

I just dont believe that the majority of black women-outside of LHCF and such-are at the point where straight hair is simply a style choice and they would just as quickly adopt some tight kinky 4b napps

 

[FluffyRed]

but the world ideal is heavily yt influenced

 

[Cherokee-n-Black]

I expected my opinion to offend since this is a great sore spot among black people, but it is what it is . My opinion still stands that black women perm to emulate the white standard of beauty. Too many of us do it, too many of us hold negative views of our natural hair...honestly where do you think this comes from? Honestly, think about it. I know it is difficult as there is a knee-jerk reaction surrounding the issue but try to look at it w/out the emotional piece. The manageability argument is a cop -out,. Manageability has nothing to do with it, black women who perm just prefer straighter hair bc of the negative messages associated with natural hair- that is fine and that is your prerogative if you want to relax, but let's call a spade a spade.

You should have expected your opinion to offend, because it is an assumption based on your own particular bias. You also NOW state that it's your opinion, when in your OP, and in this one you purport it as fact. It's simply not. I didn't get a perm at age 11 to look white, I got it because I had waist-length hair that I couldn't comb myself. You continually to speak for black women who perm, but how can you, if you are not permed yourself? Or were you? And did you do so because you were impacted by negative messages associated with your natural hair?

That's a personal issue, not one you can deflect on anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's transferrence The fact that you felt the need to weigh in at all given your "afro puffs" indicates that more than likely you are trying to "prove something" because all the negativity regarding your natural hair has gotten to you. You're never truly free until you feel you can do whatever you want, without regard to what white people think.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

You do know that the Moors ruled parts of Europe and the Ancient Ethiopian empire spread from Africa throughout Aisa? So yes many of these groups do have Africa in them. Even if they don't I already mentioned that these groups have curly hair and some of them straighten their hair. Even amoung Black folks there are some with naturally straight hair. I'm speaking of the majority and an idea of what one is suppose to look like, which is what many of us view ourselves and others from.

It's pointless to call a Tongan an African..or a Maori, or an Ashkenazi Jew... People just want us to think we're so far out there that nobody else has kinky hair. I'm well aware of the varying textures in peoples' hair. I know what you mean...we don't have to agree that we're that far out there, tho. I see so many cultures of kinky locs...but we all know who needs to be front and central worldwide. They'd also have us all believe they are the majority of the world's population. Well, even in Europe, it's fastly changing .

 

[CurlyMoo]

Relaxers were created so blacks can "fix" their hair because it was too savage. Relaxing a nappy head will not make a black person conform to a european standard of beauty. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. Don't forget that Jherri curls and texturizers was made for the same reason, i.e, to make nappy hair more "normal" and to "fix" it. I know we will all agree that Jherri curl and a texturizer is not conforming to a white or european standard of beauty. I get what you're saying, though. Even if that is the case where relaxers are for black people to conform to a european standard of beauty that is not the reason why many do it today. Relaxers are the only thing that some black women know. I know some black women who went back to relaxers because they couldn't manage their hair and found it too time consuming. Straight hair is also the norm; that is the main reason I believe black women straighten their hair...simply to have it straight and give it that "normal" appeal. I'm not saying that there aren't black women who wishes to look white. I just don't think trying to look white is the purpose or the main reason.
I know for sure black women who straightens their hair have a lot of work to do if they are trying to conform to the white standard of beauty. I've never seen how straightening nappy hair was able to achieve that.

It's one form of conformity. No one said they would be totally accepted. What exactly is the hair being "fixed" into? Not loose nappy hair but bone straight hair. That is a conformity if it needs to be fixed to make yourself more accepted into a certain community.

 

[Hairsofab]

Just a pet peeve of mine but please....people with straight hair PERM their hair. People with curly hair RELAX it. Tis all...

Well Perm is just short for permanent curl and Relaxer is short for permanent relaxer. They are both permanent (Perm) chemical processes.