Spinny: What's YOUR definition of natural?

[~Sparklingflame~]

Relaxers don't get everybody's hair straight. IF I ever wanted to get my hair straight to the point that it did not revert I would have to use heat. They haven't made a relaxer yet that can get my hair straight. Also hair has different reactions to chemicals vs heat even though the end result is the same, so one process may be better for a particular person over the other.

Dayum girl what kinda hair you got?

 

[fletches]

I would love for you two to expound on your theories of SSKs. Stress? Diet? Medications? How would these factors affect SSKs? Where are you getting your information? Ladies who take wonderful care of their hair can still get SSK's. It's NOT a rare occurence only limited to those not maintaining their hair but common among many with tightly coiled hair.

One way you can get them is if your hair is dry and hair dryness is caused by many things(diet, medication, natural elements, etc)

The best moisturizer for the hair is water, but what is put in most of our water (that's another story). And not just putting water on the hair externally, but taking in enough water internally as well. I could really go deep into this, but I'll just keep it simple.

That's one reason why sealing the ends with moisturizer is stressed so much esp. on type 4 hair.

 

[Bint Yusef]

Dayum girl what kinda hair you got?

3b/c

There was a thread on here started by Flowerhair I believe. Many type 3s cannot go bone straight with a relaxer.

 

[loulou82]

One way you can get them is if your hair is dry and hair dryness is caused by many things(diet, medication, natural elements, etc)

The best moisturizer for the hair is water, but what is put in most of our water (that's another story). And not just putting water on the hair externally, but taking in enough water internally as well. I could really go deep into this, but I'll just keep it simple.

That's one reason why sealing the ends with moisturizer is stressed so much esp. on type 4 hair.

So just moisturize, seal, and poof no more SSKs. I get it. I'm being facetious because I'm the text book example of healthy eating, protective styles, 2+ liters of water per day, vitamins, exercise, and healthy hair care practices and I still get SSKs. Speaking in general, I wish ladies weren't blame for some things that are natural qualities of their hair. Some just have dry hair that will suck up moisture and still not be satisfied or so tightly coiled that it strands will curl around each other and get SSKs without a second look. But I would actually like to know how dry hair creates SSKs. How does it facilitate their creation? Many ladies say a remedy is keeping SSKs at bay is to keep the hair stretched but usually stretched hair is dry. Moisture prompts natural hair to curl.

 

[arosieworld]

I realize that you do not want to argue. I just want to know if you realize that the process for which it takes to get heat from the flat iron and the process for which it takes to get heat from the sun are two different things?

As I said in the begin my grandmother used to flat iron my hair by putting the flat iron in the fire. I see nothing artificial about that. If I still lived in flordia I could probably heat up my hot comb in the sun on the sand. Heat is heat, damage is damage, to me, personally. If you use too hot of water on your hair its not even safe. That's why I feel the only truly avoidable way to change the structure of your hair is chemicals and that is what makes your hair un-natural. That is my personal definition of natural vs un-natural. If there is ever a hair terminology to english dictionary then I will do my best to abide by what it says. Meanwhile I have an opinion and it is different than yours and thats ok.

 

[JuiceMobsta]

You said this very well. I don't understand why so many people do this. Just because you like a certain definition DOES NOT make it correct. Like this person above said, I can say that I look white everyday all day but that does NOT make me look white. I am dark brown. I understand some people just like to argue over things that should not be argued over.

I just can't comprehend how you (speaking in general) can relate heat trained hair to something that is natural. For a person to put a flat iron or hot comb to their hair so much to the point that it breaks the bonds in your hair is UNNATURAL. You (speaking in general) can look at it side ways, upside down, inside out, spin 3 times and stop on your left foot. It is NOT NATURAL. How do you argue with something being natural (DERIVED FROM NATURE) and something that is UN-NATURAL??? And why is it that people who say that this is natural can't actually explain why they think so. They always try to relate it to something else (for the most part is never directly related). Why can't this "fact" of heat trained hair being natural be true in itself?

I mean I can also say how I'm white because my sister looks kinda of sort of white, I mean yea she's kind of lighter than me and to make lighter colors you have to mix it with white so if you look at me and her together and really quickly blink you will SEE the white in me.

I am not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just really wanting to see a valid point. The most valid I've seen (that happens to be related to a hair style and not heat trained hair in itself) is the poster who was talking about locs. I definitely see your point (about locs) in the fact that people call loced hair natural when their hair texture has been altered. But it comes down to, has it been permanently altered? I'm not familiar with locs. So if you unravel them do you see the natural texture when you wash it a few times or is it permanently changed (the hair that is currently on your head and not the new growth)?

I see what you mean, you are thinking of natural as the dictionary term "derived from nature" and others are thinking of it as no relaxers, perms, or texturizers. Its true that they werent born with heat trained hair but....

Isnt it just safe to say that heat damage/training is simply natural hair that was damaged overtime by heat? It was in a normal natural state, and now it is in a damaged natural state because it has been traumatized by heat. The whole idea of natural hair being exactly the way it was when it first grew out of your head is a bit far-fetched, with all the different styles/styling techniques and trying different hair products and everything, how do we know if our curl pattern has the exact same spacing between curls that it originally had, it may have slightly loosened over time(even on a microscopic level,lol).

I agree with what one poster said, lets not complicate this matter too much.

 

[JuiceMobsta]

One way you can get them is if your hair is dry and hair dryness is caused by many things(diet, medication, natural elements, etc)

The best moisturizer for the hair is water, but what is put in most of our water (that's another story). And not just putting water on the hair externally, but taking in enough water internally as well. I could really go deep into this, but I'll just keep it simple.

That's one reason why sealing the ends with moisturizer is stressed so much esp. on type 4 hair.

You know our ancestors probably did get SSK's just like today because people first have to learn about what their hair needs/requires before they can properly care for it. We probably groom our hair more today and have learned more about it than people from wayyyy back when, they laid the foundation for what we know now.

 

[fletches]

I see what you mean, you are thinking of natural as the dictionary term "derived from nature" and others are thinking of it as no relaxers, perms, or texturizers. Its true that they werent born with heat trained hair but....

Isnt it just safe to say that heat damage/training is simply natural hair that was damaged overtime by heat? It was in a normal natural state, and now it is in a damaged natural state because it has been traumatized by heat. The whole idea of natural hair being exactly the way it was when it first grew out of your head is a bit far-fetched, with all the different styles/styling techniques and trying different hair products and everything, how do we know if our curl pattern has the exact same spacing between curls that it originally had, it may have slightly loosened over time(even on a microscopic level,lol).

I agree with what one poster said, lets not complicate this matter too much.

In regards to our curl pattern having the exact same spacing between curls, it may not. But that would be more along the lines of the hair evolving or changing which occurs naturally, as with anything else.

The idea of natural is to keep something as close to its natural state as possible. For many black ppl straight hair is possibly the furthest away from natural we can get.

It's not complicated at all. This matter is not even close to being deep, but neither are 100's of other topics on the board so I just pick and choose

You know our ancestors probably did get SSK's just like today because people first have to learn about what their hair needs/requires before they can properly care for it. We probably groom our hair more today and have learned more about it than people from wayyyy back when, they laid the foundation for what we know now.

I can't say for certain if they got them or not. If by ancestors you're starting with the slave trade, then they probably didn't know how to care for their hair in a different environment esp an environement where their diet and lifestyle was vastly different.

I was taking it all the way back though, before slavery. Those ppl laid the foundation for us, but we have ventured so far away from nature and their way that we might have done a complete circle, using artificial means to get to what could've been done naturally

 

[DDTexlaxed]

I say the absence of relaxer/texturizer. I can't follow the technicality of others who say heat trained hair is not natural. Heat training has been going on long before relaxers were created. A lot of women have long hair because of it. Why this issue gets so technical is because some don't agree with the practice and look down on it. In slavery times, they heat trained their hair too. The practice was wide spread and viewed as normal grooming practice, just as it is today.

 

[fletches]

So just moisturize, seal, and poof no more SSKs. I get it. I'm being facetious because I'm the text book example of healthy eating, protective styles, 2+ liters of water per day, vitamins, exercise, and healthy hair care practices and I still get SSKs. Speaking in general, I wish ladies weren't blame for some things that are natural qualities of their hair. Some just have dry hair that will suck up moisture and still not be satisfied or so tightly coiled that it strands will curl around each other and get SSKs without a second look. But I would actually like to know how dry hair creates SSKs. How does it facilitate their creation? Many ladies say a remedy is keeping SSKs at bay is to keep the hair stretched but usually stretched hair is dry. Moisture prompts natural hair to curl.

I missed this post earlier, but no there's more to it than just moisturize and seal.

Your looking at this from a very surface POV. I'm going to ask you some questions, and no I'm not being facetious or snarky at all.

You say you're the text book ex. of healthy eating.
What is your definition of healthy eating?

You use protective styles, but what are you protecting your hair from?
And what kind of "protective" styles are you doing?

You drink 2+ liters of water per day.
What kind of water are you drinking? (not the brand, but the quality)
What kind of products are you using? Why are you taking vitamins if you're the text book example of healthy eating?

Excercise
Where are you exercising? (outside or inside)
Do you wash your hair after you excercise? (again this goes back to what kinds of water are you using, and what kinds of products)
Are you wearing these protective styles when you exercise?

I'm not blaming anyone for having SSK's. They are common in our type of hair b/c of the curl and dryness that is natural. However, just b/c they are common doesn't mean they are natural. You might not even be able to fully eliminate them due to the society we live in, but many ppl don't get them at all so *shrug*

Using heat to eliminate SSK's may appear to be the quick, easy solution but at the microscopic level it's causing damage to the hair. Any type of heat applied directly to the hair shaft can permanently damage the protein structure of the hair.

 

[fletches]

I say the absence of relaxer/texturizer. I can't follow the technicality of others who say heat trained hair is not natural. Heat training has been going on long before relaxers were created. A lot of women have long hair because of it. Why this issue gets so technical is because some don't agree with the practice and look down on it. In slavery times, they heat trained their hair too. The practice was wide spread and viewed as normal grooming practice, just as it is today.

How do you know that a person looks down on it

In slavery times they ate salted pork too which was normal.

 

[DDTexlaxed]

How do you know that a person looks down on it

In slavery times they ate salted pork too which was normal.

It is discouraged on another site, but not here. Some people do share that point of view.

 

[fletches]

It is discouraged on another site, but not here. Some people do share that point of view.

Wow, I don't think its anything to look down on. Natural is not some exclusive club or some I'm better than you thing. At least not to meerplexed

I can be technical when it comes to some definitions b/c when you start using word play it can be very harmful. I'm not some natural hair nazi, but we forget there are ppl reading this board who never post a thing, who are very young & naive. So that's why I get technical.

I get the same way when companies advertise their product as "natural" and it has one drop of natural in it Let me not get started on that

 

[loulou82]

I missed this post earlier, but no there's more to it than just moisturize and seal.

The point of my post was not to elicit a prognosis for my particular hair but to say that you can have sub-par hair practices and not get SSKs or have very good hair practices and have them occur but SSKs are not necessarily a direct effect of mistreating/not maintaining your hair. I offered own experience as an example.

My direct question was actually how dry hair causes a single strand of hair to wrap around itself in such a manner that the knot it creates is so difficult to undo that the main remedy is cutting the hair stand.

 

[preciouslove0x]

I say the absence of relaxer/texturizer. I can't follow the technicality of others who say heat trained hair is not natural. Heat training has been going on long before relaxers were created. A lot of women have long hair because of it. Why this issue gets so technical is because some don't agree with the practice and look down on it. In slavery times, they heat trained their hair too. The practice was wide spread and viewed as normal grooming practice, just as it is today.

Who said they looked down upon it? All we are discussing in this thread is if we think heat-trained hair is natural or not. That's it. There's no back door. That's it. I personally think heat trained hair looks gorgeous if done properly. I never said I wouldn't do it in the future. No one else in this thread said heat training hair was bad or that they look down upon it either. Please don't put words into anyones mouth.

And just FYI, doing something for so long doesn't make it natural. And no one said that you couldn't get long hair from it................................................................................


ETA: I see where you responded to another post and said that you are referring to another hair board.

 

[gcchick_07]

so why exactly is heat trained hair not just damaged natural hair? because that's what it is. but damaging something doesn't make it 'unnatural' in the definition of hair.

some people really like to just be right...

 

[fluffylocks]

True natural- Unbleached, no chemicals

Also natural to me- colored, no chemicals- only because I think the whole going natural thing is mostly about not using relaxers anymore and that its what most people are talking about. I dont think coloring is such a big deal as straightening chemicals with black women.

If hair is heat damaged or heat trained, I think its natural as well, maybe not healthy, and maybe they dont have the same idea or reason for being natural as someone who doesnt have heat damaged or trained hair because they wear it curly more. But their hair to me is still "natural", there are no chemicals or anything on it, its just changed from heat. So if someone asked them if there hair is natural I dont think they should answer no. In the case of heat trained/damaged hair, I dont think natural has to equal curly hair. I think some people think the whole purpose of natural hair is to have it curly and that you forfiet or cheat if your hair is straightened somehow.

 

[dynamic1]

Interesting discussion.

If I wore my hair straight most of the time, I don't think I would be invested in the term natural. If people asked about my hair, I would say I didn't have a relaxer or perhaps call it thermally straightened. Did people in the 60s and 70s refer to the press-n-curl as natural?

My definition of natural hair- hair that has not been chemically altered in order to change the texture. I view color separately since people do not color their hair to alter the texture. I also do not describe those who wear weave/wig/extension braids most of the time as natural (even if natural underneath).

 

[Jewell]

Natural to me is no chemical straightening process or chemically altered hair, including BKT. I just started heat training my hair (because I couldn't get a comb through the crown, wet or dry), but I'm not fully natural yet, just transitioning. And, I do color my hair, and will continue to do so, but I use an "all natural" hair color, one without peroxide, ammonia, etc. That is what natural hair is to me...not chemically straightened. Heat straightened hair can revert to it's natural state if not heat damaged, whereas chemical straightening is a permanent process, where the bonds of the hair are broken, which results in straightening of the hair. I don't get too wrapped up in the word, as I'm just glad to be away from chemicals in the form of relaxers. That gives no concession or prejudice to whatever type of "relaxer" other people use or consider, whether that is heat, texturizers, thio, BKT, etc. Mine is lye. So, I gave up lye, and therefore, I'm going "natural."

ETA: And I disagree that heat trained natural hair is simply damaged natural hair. That is very incorrect. Just because the texture is softened doesn't mean it is damaged, so please study the chemistry and trichology to understand the many ways texture can change. In that case, my taking vitamins (some which soften my NG) results in damaged hair. Not so. There are natural products from the earth, like henna and cassia, which have been known to soften the hair. Heat trained hair is not simply damaged natural hair.

 

[fluffylocks]

In regards to our curl pattern having the exact same spacing between curls, it may not. But that would be more along the lines of the hair evolving or changing which occurs naturally, as with anything else.

The idea of natural is to keep something as close to its natural state as possible. For many black ppl straight hair is possibly the furthest away from natural we can get.

It's not complicated at all. This matter is not even close to being deep, but neither are 100's of other topics on the board so I just pick and choose

To keep something as close to its natural state as possible
Straight hair not being natural to black people
---

If a white women with naturally straight hair used hot appliances to put curls in her hair, and it got damaged overtime (but just got thinner or something because it couldnt get straightened any further) would she still be natural?

If so, that would almost mean black people are the only ones that once their natural hair gets damaged because of heat, they arent natural anymore.

If you cant say about every hair type that heat damaged hair equals hair thats not natural, i dont think it should be a rule.

I think that curly hair is different than straight hair, and because of that, when its damaged from heat, it reacts different than straight hair and looses it curl sometimes.

But to me its still just a form of damage where one would have to cut it off and regrow their hair if they wanted healthy hair.

I think you would also have to say if this is true that damaged hair equals non natural hair, and I dont think thats correct either.

 

[LeopardLover77]

True natural- Unbleached, no chemicals

Also natural to me- colored, no chemicals- only because I think the whole going natural thing is mostly about not using relaxers anymore and that its what most people are talking about. I dont think coloring is such a big deal as straightening chemicals with black women.

If hair is heat damaged or heat trained, I think its natural as well, maybe not healthy, and maybe they dont have the same idea or reason for being natural as someone who doesnt have heat damaged or trained hair because they wear it curly more. But their hair to me is still "natural", there are no chemicals or anything on it, its just changed from heat. So if someone asked them if there hair is natural I dont think they should answer no. In the case of heat trained/damaged hair, I dont think natural has to equal curly hair. I think some people think the whole purpose of natural hair is to have it curly and that you forfiet or cheat if your hair is straightened somehow.

Now THIS is the best explanation I have seen yet!!

 

[fluffylocks]

Natural to me is no chemical straightening process or chemically altered hair, including BKT. I just started heat training my hair (because I couldn't get a comb through the crown, wet or dry), but I'm not fully natural yet, just transitioning. And, I do color my hair, and will continue to do so, but I use an "all natural" hair color, one without peroxide, ammonia, etc. That is what natural hair is to me...not chemically straightened. Heat straightened hair can revert to it's natural state if not heat damaged, whereas chemical straightening is a permanent process, where the bonds of the hair are broken, which results in straightening of the hair. I don't get too wrapped up in the word, as I'm just glad to be away from chemicals in the form of relaxers. That gives no concession or prejudice to whatever type of "relaxer" other people use or consider, whether that is heat, texturizers, thio, BKT, etc. Mine is lye. So, I gave up lye, and therefore, I'm going "natural."

ETA: And I disagree that heat trained natural hair is simply damaged natural hair. That is very incorrect. Just because the texture is softened doesn't mean it is damaged, so please study the chemistry and trichology to understand the many ways texture can change. In that case, my taking vitamins (some which soften my NG) results in damaged hair. Not so. There are natural products from the earth, like henna and cassia, which have been known to soften the hair. Heat trained hair is not simply damaged natural hair.

I think heat on natural hair breaks the kertain bonds ( I believe keratin bonds) which make the hair curly, the same bonds that are broken when you get a relaxer.

I think when you wet set hair, the hydrogen bonds are broken, and you set your hair straight or on a roller, knot or whatever, it forms again, and your hair is in the style, when you wet it again, they break, the reason hair reverts in humidity.

I dont think heat softens hair, if it does it may be because its doing something to the cuticle layers of the hair- it may smooth them down
The same way henna and cassia cover the cuticle layer and smooth them down, or it may damage them which might make your hair feel softer because theres less layers (not sure)

If you are taking vitamins, and your new growth is softened, thats because maybe something was missing from your diet, vitamins most of the time can only show you how your hair would be at your healthiest, or when your not taking vitamins thats your hair with nutrients missing sometimes.

I think there is a difference between texture change, and damaged hair.

ETA--- I think im missing your point though ( I thought you were saying heat damaged hair is not natural)

Are you saying you dont think heat trained hair is damaged? The texture is just changed?

Or are you saying that the structure is changed, but in a natural way, so the hair should still be labled natural?

 

[tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT]

WOW, i can 'only wish' i cared this much about hair

i'm thoroughly impressed

i love u guys!!!

 

[rockstar]

I don't think natural should have a one size fits all definition. I'm sure not everyone in this thread defines skinny or thirsty the same way. I'm sure you could argue BMI or the point at which your mouth is dry, but there are different perceptions of what the words actually mean.

I agree with solitude. Reasonable minds differ and have different perceptions of reality and definitions.

As for the poll, I voted no relaxer.

Very interesting discussion though and extremely valid points from both parties. I enjoyed reading this!

 

[loulou82]

WOW, i can 'only wish' i cared this much about hair

i'm thoroughly impressed

You created 50-11 threads on hair types within the span of 2 days (and which I happily participated in) . You care HairLab .

 

[~Sparklingflame~]

You created 50-11 threads on hair types within the span of 2 days (and which I happily participated in) . You care HairLab .

 

[NikStarrr]

I think heat on natural hair breaks the kertain bonds ( I believe keratin bonds) which make the hair curly, the same bonds that are broken when you get a relaxer.

I think when you wet set hair, the hydrogen bonds are broken, and you set your hair straight or on a roller, knot or whatever, it forms again, and your hair is in the style, when you wet it again, they break, the reason hair reverts in humidity.

I dont think heat softens hair, if it does it may be because its doing something to the cuticle layers of the hair- it may smooth them down
The same way henna and cassia cover the cuticle layer and smooth them down, or it may damage them which might make your hair feel softer because theres less layers (not sure)

If you are taking vitamins, and your new growth is softened, thats because maybe something was missing from your diet, vitamins most of the time can only show you how your hair would be at your healthiest, or when your not taking vitamins thats your hair with nutrients missing sometimes.

I think there is a difference between texture change, and damaged hair.

I agree. Texture change is just an observable change. It's like a phenotype, for example. It's just what we can see, but that doesn't necessarily mean damage. It's like if someone with type 4a hair and someone with type 1 hair as an experiment both flat ironed their hair weekly for a year. If at the end of that year the type 4a person's curl is loosened, does it mean the hair is any more damaged than the person with type 1 hair that continues to just be straight the way it was? I don't necessarily think so. I don't necessarily believe an observable change = a change in make-up of a strand of hair. If I go to the Bahamas and because of the humidity my hair gets curlier than what it usually is here in GA. Does that mean my hair got "healthier" in the Bahamas? Of course, not.

I DO believe there is a such thing as heat damage--and I tend to believe it's what happens when someone (we've heard the story many types over here) goes to a salon for example, gets a press, and in that one time of getting their hair heat styled, it dramatically alters their texture.

And this is just my opinion. I just know of too many naturals who wear their hair straight majority of the time, and who's curl has loosened, but still have BSL and longer healthy hair, to believe that just being able to observe a change in texture means that there is damage.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Seriously, people need to stop trying to be scientists, etymologists, and cosmetologists. Telling other people to "go look stuff up" in the dictionary is rude. I'm in law school, and let me tell you reasonable minds do differ.

ITA.

And I am positive nature made SSK's.

I am positive right along with you.

 

[vainღ♥♡jane]

daaaaaaaaaamn, its don got real extra in here since my last visit ♥

 

[tHENATuRALhAiRpRoJEcT]

You created 50-11 threads on hair types within the span of 2 days (and which I happily participated in) . You care HairLab .

roflmao!!!! Naaah sis, not at all really

best part about it.... i know nothing about hair typing "I myself was kicked from 2 threads for choosing the wrong type" I thought I could help some people who were religously asking about typing....
but it's not my thing! I've never asked a hair typing question in my life! But I know things aren't always (unfortunately) about me. The typing threads started from a member & I going back in forth about how "I disliked the typing system.....and how I say more division than unity in using this system"

She explained (very well I may add...how she felt it help many...moreso than not)
I decided to go against the grain & develop typing threads in hopes to reduce the confusion in the hundreds of typing questions I've seen on numerous boards for a couple years now)
I been begging everyone to keep the comments PLEASANT (again...against the grain...to increase understanding, without the bickering)
Still trying.... but all in all seeing the pics was worth it:lick

LUVS EM'