Letting Go With Positivity, Peace, Courage, And Interdependence

[mysblossom]

What was his excuse for not going to marriage counseling?

About the marriage counseling avoidance (thanks for asking):

I told him that if he didn't attend marriage counseling, that if I had to attend alone, he could expect us to split.

He agreed to attend.

I made an appointment. The next available slot was 2 months from then. I put the date on the whiteboard calendar on the refrigerator. For me it was an excruciating wait. Finally, the morning of the appointment arrived. I got dressed and said, "Okay! Today is our counseling session. Let's go."

He said: "I'm not going to some counseling session so you can tell some man all of our business." After again asking him to go and warning him of what he was doing to our marriage by refusing to go, I went myself. I attended for quite awhile.

 

[mysblossom]

Did you actually do the quiz? When I first read the book it was mind blowing. The next shock was doing the quiz and realizing how they didn't match up to what I had assumed my answers would be.

Its important to not only discuss the "types" but what the actual definition of achieving those goals mean.

I do believe his language is acts of service.

I think you receive love through gifts (or its ranked higher then you are aware since you self describe as giving love that way) which is why you are conflicted regarding his acts of service (which seems like gifts).

There is a HUGE mismatch between what was acceptable as a poor college student and what is acceptable as a grown married head of household husband. All the things that he does means nothing when the standards have changed. He seems to be operating on what used to be acceptable vs. what you need as an evolved couple. The employment/being a provider is being used as a red herring from what seems to be at hand the disparity between your goals as a couple. If you all were on the same page he'd understand that his word is bond. He's not currently doing what he says he would do at top notch so #19 is false. If he was paying attention to how his behavior was truly distressing you he'd change his behavior so #20 is false. #22 is also neither here nor there because broke people survive not budget.

I'm not saying this to be mean but couching your language isn't helping him understand how frustrated you are. He will look at long list of stuff he's doing right and wonder what you complaining about instead of realizing that all those things are actually ranked below being a provider. It seems somewhere in your truth that being a provider (heck just meeting you half way) is important. One has to be employed to provide gifts so the cutesy handmade things just aren't enough now (& there's nothing wrong with that).

If you rearranged the list you wrote where does being a provider fit in and how would the numbering change? Label all of those things using the 5 and see where the mismatch is (if there is a mismatch).

What is truly important to you now and in the future? Are those goals even on his radar? You said you want to own a home. Is he fine with apartment living? Does he even know what owning a home entails? Did he share you dreams of travelling or does he not even have a passport or share your curiosity for other cultures?

You can't deal with the problem if you aren't identifying what the problem is. It doesn't seem as if he believes not working is a problem. And for you acts of service includes providing for your family. Those two roads will never meet.

Saying the words are not enough. You don't have to post it here but dig into what those words mean for you in actions then see how much of the list is really appropriate to you. Then be honest about what is or is not being met. He's sulking because it appears that he's doing a lot when based on what you shared here he's actually focusing on the wrong things.

I don't think what you were feeling was envy. I think you were recognizing what is possible when you are evenly yoked.

Yes anything is possible when you have a willing partner but the only one that can answer is refusing to go to counseling which is his choice and speaks volumes about where he places getting out of this rut and relieving the pressure on you. He may be the perfect house husband for a type A with the booming career that doesn't mind holding the financial load and wants to be catered to. That doesn't mean he's the right match for you. Or maybe he is and you have to work out in your head what you say you want and what you are actually ok with (as far as being the bread winner and appearances). Keep digging to find your truth.

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for taking the time to write all of that. Thank you for caring so much.

I'll reply in a series of posts.

RELATIONSHIP HISTORY
We started dating during a summer internship when we were 19 and 20. When the summer ended, we went back to our home states and college states and continued dating long distance.

We kept dating long distance on and off. Once during one of our times off, he dated a girl from his college. They got engaged but broke it off. We always stayed friends over the years. We met up again later, dated, got engaged, and got married.

I had hesitated to get married because although he is a bible reader and person who prays daily, he wasn't a church attender. That was a big no-no in my family. Once I moved to his state, he began attending church with me and has ever since.

He has no children, nor do I.

 

[mysblossom]

It just doesn't seem right that someone that shared goals would all of a sudden change gears and behave in a manner that is so far to the left of actually achieving them.

HIS GOALS and WORK HISTORY and WORK AVOIDANCE
Before we got married, he was making REALLY good money and saving and saving it. Then his INDUSTRY went bad, basically making his degree useless. (It was good that he had a degree at all, but that particular field is largely gone.)

When he lost his job that first time (before we were married), he got really down. He moved back to his home state and moved in with his parents. He paid their house note and bills, supposedly while job searching. He ate up his savings doing that and caring for other family members. (MANY YEARS LATER his brother's wife NeNe told me that he hardly ever left the house.) I didn't know he wasn't leaving the house and such, but I did figure he was depressed about the college degree "uselessness" thing. We were dating long distance, and I told him that if he didn't go to a temp agency, we were through. He went to a temp agency, got a temp job, someone saw his work ethic and asked for his resume, then they gave him a job doing computer work for a real estate company. He got all sorts of awards at work.

Then the housing market crashed, the company shut down, they laid him off, and he never went back to "real" work after that.

During the unemployment, I asked him if he wanted to go to school and get a law degree. He said, "No, I can't do school anymore." I asked him if he wanted to get some certificates in computer tech. He gave me a reason that those weren't too good an idea.

I finally spoke to his dad about it. His dad told me, "Darling, I think he just wants to be on the computer all day. He seems to live his life through the computer. Don't ruin your life, now. You take care of you."

Before and in the beginning of our marriage, we always talked about the home we would purchase. We always talked about the kids we would have, and I loooooooved how good he was with all of our nieces and nephews. I don't think he ever cared too much about traveling. That was just me.

 

[mysblossom]

Did you actually do the quiz? When I first read the book it was mind blowing. The next shock was doing the quiz and realizing how they didn't match up to what I had assumed my answers would be.

Its important to not only discuss the "types" but what the actual definition of achieving those goals mean.

I do believe his language is acts of service.

I think you receive love through gifts (or its ranked higher then you are aware since you self describe as giving love that way) which is why you are conflicted regarding his acts of service (which seems like gifts).

We actually did the quiz in the Love Languages book.

I am certain I receive love via words of affirmation and not gifts or acts of service. I appreciate the gifts and acts of service, and that is HIS way of giving love.

The reason that I know, know, KNOW that words of affirmation is the way I receive love is this: One summer our church (a more progressive one than my childhood church) did these series that helped folks identify their primary emotional/psychological injury. Mine was worthlessness. Words of affirmation mean soooooo much to me. Even my favorite scriptures are words of affirmation.

I don't think my spouse cares if he has a car, a house, or anything. I think he is satisfied with having food, internet, and a shower. I think he is glad we don't have children, though he's always said he wants them. If we had children, that would be an added financial responsibility.

 

[hopeful]

I think what she is saying that if words of affirmation were indeed your primary love language you would be happier and more satisfied with your dh. Acts of service would include working and paying bills. From what you've written here it seems that acts of service would bring you so much joy. Like he could fall way back on the sweet words if he was helping you pay the bills. And goodness if he made enough that you could chill sometimes, travel, buy a home, have a baby, the words of affirmation would still be nice but would matter a lot less. His actions would fill the void that the words of affirmation do but better and more satisfying.

 

[mysblossom]

WHAT I REALLY THINK IS GOING ON, and WHETHER I COULD JUST ACCEPT a NON-WORKING HUSBAND

• I think my spouse got a taste of staying at home while I paid the bills and discovered that not working is more fun to him than working.
• I think he got USED to staying at home all day and doesn't want to be bothered with working, ESPECIALLY since I can afford an apartment for us, food for us, etc., etc.
• Because he doesn't need a home or children, because that would require that he HELP ME, he DEFINITELY has no interest in getting out there and making enough money for us to get pregnant, get a home, etc.

I wasn't planning on getting too deep into what I write below, but you can imagine that my husband's changed values and behavior had me FLOORED and PERPLEXED. I read scores of books, went to counseling, constantly talk with my marriage counselor psychologist friend, etc.

So here's what I REALLY think is the problem:
First, throw away your conception of what you THINK narcissism is/means. There is the lay person's use of the term, then there is the clinical meaning of the term. They are very, very, very, very different.

I believe my husband is a very sweet and kind person who has the clinical version of narcissism. As a result, I believe he has shut down work-wise. It is easier for him to stay away from that world and live in a fake world he creates to live in that doesn't confront his unemployment and what that might say about him.

I read the book "Narcissistic Lovers" and said "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Wow. Okay. THERE IS MY SPOUSE. He was injured as a child, and now he cannot handle situations that make him feel 'less than.'" Now I know why he works so hard not to keep butting up against an employment issue that makes him feel less than.

While I have great, great, GREAT sympathy for this, I'll be honest: I have a Harvard degree and I just work WHATEVER JOB. I have worked some really low-level jobs. I don't get to excuse myself from working.

No matter how well I believe I understand what's going on, I'm just not the kind of person that can handle going out to work all day while a man sits at home, even if he does all the housework and cooking and all. To be honest with you, even if he made only $15,000/year I could deal with that, though I'd be frustrated. It's the not working at all? At all? Who gets that luxury? I feel lived off of. And it won't go away.

My mom sees the pain I'm in. She asked me, "I know it's far-fetched and out there, but could you just work and let him take care of the children you would have, just so you get to be a mother?" I wish I could! I just can't. It just kills me. I just . . . can't.

 

[qchelle]

 

[mysblossom]

One of my girlfriends from church told me, "That spell of not working that he went through BEFORE you guys got married? That was your tell-tale sign to RUN, RUN, RUN."

I can accept that.

At the time I just thought, "Here's a guy -- a good person who does a lot for so many around him -- who obtained a really challenging-to-obtain college degree. He has always worked hard, but has lost his job and is discouraged. He just needs some encouragement to get back in there."

One of my guy friends told me that my spouse is not a go-getter and that spell of unemployment was my cue.

I'd never been around men like that or seen anything like it, so I never expected him to just never work anymore.

 

[Godsdaughter001]

While I have great, great, GREAT sympathy for this, I'll be honest: I have a Harvard degree and I just work WHATEVER JOB. I have worked some really low-level jobs. I don't get to excuse myself from working.

No matter how well I believe I understand what's going on, I'm just not the kind of person that can handle going out to work all day while a man sits at home, even if he does all the housework and cooking and all. To be honest with you, even if he made only $15,000/year I could deal with that, though I'd be frustrated. It's the not working at all? At all? Who gets that luxury? I feel lived off of. And it won't go away.

My mom sees the pain I'm in. She asked me, "I know it's far-fetched and out there, but could you just work and let him take care of the children you would have, just so you get to be a mother?" I wish I could! I just can't. It just kills me. I just . . . can't.

I feel you on every aspect of this post. Especially the bolded. No matter how good of a person he is, and unless he is ill, he needs to be working. Point blank. It's not fair to you.

Oh, and Harvard grad? You better go girl!! What a wonderful accomplishment Definitely something to be proud of!!

 

[mysblossom]

I want to send a BIG thank you to you ladies of LHCF.

Thank you for reading, responding, asking me questions, lifting me and my husband up in prayer, giving me hugs and encouragement and well wishes, etc.

I'm feeling better than I have in a long while.

I'm going to take a break from posting here at LHCF while I try to meet a research writing deadline. I may log back in to read this thread for encouragement, but I will try to discipline myself not to post. I have a hard deadline on October 30th, so I will likely return to LHCF shortly after.

Have a REALLY good next few weeks! Much, much love. You all are wonderful.

Blossom

 

[Godsdaughter001]

Looking forward to hearing from you soon, @mysblossom! Take care of yourself

 

[UmSumayyah]

One of my girlfriends from church told me, "That spell of not working that he went through BEFORE you guys got married? That was your tell-tale sign to RUN, RUN, RUN."

I can accept that.

At the time I just thought, "Here's a guy -- a good person who does a lot for so many around him -- who obtained a really challenging-to-obtain college degree. He has always worked hard, but has lost his job and is discouraged. He just needs some encouragement to get back in there."

One of my guy friends told me that my spouse is not a go-getter and that spell of unemployment was my cue.

I'd never been around men like that or seen anything like it, so I never expected him to just never work anymore.

You made the best decision you could with the knowledge and experience you had at the time.
You sharing may help someone else.

 

[bklynbornNbred]

I'll respond when you get back so I don't tempt you. Sending you good writing vibes! Stay encouraged!

 

[mysblossom]

Tried Not to Post This, But I Didn't Want to Leave Out This Bit of Positivity:
Woke Up Feeling Pretty Good This Morning!

Normally when I wake up in the morning, a sense of dread comes over me about the situation . . . like someone has poured a pitcher of slightly watered-down tar over my head and it slowly makes its way down my back, front, and shoulders, starting to weigh down my spirit. Or it's like someone has thrown a costume on me over my shoulders, and taped to the back of the costume is a note that reads, "Lady Who Takes Care of Her Husband Because He Doesn't Love Her Enough To Even Job Search."

But miraculously this morning felt different for some reason! I'm not exactly sure why!

I woke up feeling light! My situation was not my identity this morning! I was feeling a lot more like my old self. I could imagine living my life in a way that feels acceptable to me again. I could imagine that even IF I ended up having to tell my spouse in December/January that we need to split that it would go well and be peaceful for us both and not be guilt-ridden and scary for me. I could imagine driving around town peaceful and light-hearted, working on myself in my city while my spouse was working on himself in his.

And . . . today when I got in the car to take older nephew to school, a most UPLIFTING, heart-lightening sermon to speak to my situation came on the radio: Joel Osteen's sermon #653 "An Expected Ending." The words that REALLY struck me (paraphrased) were:

• "When the setback hits but you proceed giving it your best anyway because you KNOW that despite any ups and downs God is still holding the ending He has for you . . ."
• "It's not the trouble or the challenge or the setback that can take away God's ending for you, but getting discouraged and losing faith and passion and hope can . . ."
• "Joseph held on to his dreams and continued to perform at his best even while he was falsely imprisoned and it didn't look like he could ever reach his destiny . . ."

I know that something about this situation has/had gotten deep down inside of me and has made me feel like I no longer have access to living a winning life. It has shut me down a bit. (A lot, perhaps?) But last night my heart was so open that music touched me again, and this morning I was BREATHING.

Just wanted to add this to the thread so that when I go back and read I'll know that it's not all clouds and gloom but hope and expectation as well.

Woooooosaaaaaaaaa.

Blessings!

 

[hopeful]

Yes! God is good. You are so loved and your future is bright sweet mysblossom.

 

[Fine 4s]

@mysblossom
What's serious Christian? Are you JW?
Sounds similar to a friend's reasons.

 

[mysblossom]

I feel you on every aspect of this post. Especially the bolded. No matter how good of a person he is, and unless he is ill, he needs to be working. Point blank. It's not fair to you.

Oh, and Harvard grad? You better go girl!! What a wonderful accomplishment Definitely something to be proud of!!

Re-reading this post this morning is dissipating the fear and other negative feelings.

I can stay firm and end this damaging roller coaster when it's time. I can.

I can still be okay, I can still be okay, I will still be okay. I can't keep worrying about him to the neglect of myself. Not after 7 years now of no real change.

Breathing in . . .
. . . and breathing out.

Keep thinking joyfully. Let go, let God now, and move into and stay in faith and peace.

Thank you so much, @Godsdaughter001, for caring about me and taking the time to post this to share with me.

 

[mysblossom]

@mysblossom
What's serious Christian? Are you JW?
Sounds similar to a friend's reasons.

No, not JW.

I hate to post this, because not all of these types of churches are still so "serious," especially the white ones, but it's the normal church of Christ.

Not the scary cult Boston church of Christ movement. Not the church of God in Christ. Not the international church of Christ.

The church is very, very similar to your traditional Baptist church. However, especially in the South many of these congregations do what some would call "bibli-anity."

ETA: When I moved away, I found a very grace-based congregation and attended there for a while. I started reading and exploring also. I came across Joseph Prince's books and sermons and my relationship with Christ and God started changing and healing. I then REALLY branched out and visited an amazing, amazing church not affiliated with my childhood church. There, I experienced congregational worship (via the singing portion of the service) that ushered me into true worship.

I attended that church until I moved. Christianity and therefore my relationship with Christ and God was functioning like a bright, warm, ball of sunrays in my life.

Before that, I really believe that I had rarely truly worshipped . . . i.e. just stopped the busy buzzing/thinking of my brain and just stopped and felt and expressed adoration, thankfulness, praise, and love for God and the Lord.

ETA #2: Very rarely did the churches of my childhood accomplish this. And I believe that for certain people, regularly and frequently relating to God in this way is CRITICAL. I believe that for some christians, if they are not experiencing heart-ful worship, they can be in a place of using their INTELLECT or THINKING to save themselves, if you know what I'm trying to say. Heart-ful worship takes you right out of that and lets you reside and rest in the palm of His hand.​

I used to achieve that solo singing to God in my shower, but at that new church we did it corporately -- together as a church family -- and everything about the church was aligned with the purpose/spirit of worship and whole, God -infused, deep-joy living.

 

[Godsdaughter001]

Re-reading this post this morning is dissipating the fear and other negative feelings.

I can stay firm end this damaging roller coaster when it's time. I can.

I can still be okay, I can still be okay, I will still be okay. I can't keep worrying about him to the neglect of myself. Not after 7 years now of no real change.

Breathing in . . .
. . . and breathing out.

Keep thinking joyfully. Let go, let God now, and move into and stay in faith and peace.

Thank you so much, @Godsdaughter001, for caring about me and taking the time to post this to share with me.

You're very welcome. And yes, you will be just fine. No matter how this situation turns out. You will be absolutely fine.

 

[mysblossom]

Ruminating over the below was getting in the way of me being able to think about my paper, so I wanted to jot them down to get them out of my head. I'll return later and think about how I should/can address them.

Thoughts/Feelings that Have Made Me Hesitate in the Past:

1. What if something is really wrong with this person and I kick him out? I would be kicking out a psychologically damaged person. Should I do that? In the case of psychological damage, is this truly precisely his fault? What's the best way to help this type of person? Deep, deep sigh.
2. If the cause of all of this is what I think it is, is kicking him out and outing his situation to "the world" going to send him to a deep, dark, scary place? How can I avoid even the chance of that? How do I do this with as little psychological harm to him as possible?
3. If this man would just take ANY job, that would at least give me hope that he might start healing (if that's what this is about), whether we make it as a couple or not. Is there any way that I can FORCE him to take a job or get someone else to FORCE him to take a job? Maybe then we could avoid the risk of him going into that deep, dark, scary place that I'm worried he might go into if/when his wife leaves him and he's outed. At least he'd have a job??? I know it's no one's responsibility to FORCE anyone to work. I guess I'm reaching the end of my rope and worrying so much about the "deep, dark scary place" and wondering, "Do anything to avoid it?" What if trying to FORCE him would work and avoid something really bad happening? Oh, me oh, my oh, me oh, my. Sigh.

Addressing Those Thoughts and Feelings:

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?

 

[hopeful]

I think the biggest issue is you feeling responsible for him and his behavior. While he may respond to you and may adjust to you, that does not make you responsible for him. You are not his mother. You are not his mother. You are his wife. He is not a boy. He is a man. As his wife you are his partner. He is supposed to "cover" you, not the other way around. If he does indeed turn out to have the mentality of a little boy, which I hope isn't the case, he should not be anyone's husband. Bottomline, if he did go to a very dark place, you are not responsible for him going there. You can't make him do anything either. You can only heal yourself and hope he has the capacity to follow/adjust. You only have control over you.

 

[hopeful]

If you could force him to do something he didn't want to do, you would be God, the justice system, or an overseer. You are none of those things though. You need to stay in your lane: the wife lane, woman lane, feminine lane.

 

[mysblossom]

I think the biggest issue is you feeling responsible for him and his behavior.

Agreed. I'm trying to get to a place where I won't feel responsible. I know that he is not acting responsibly. Still, for some reason, I feel some sort of responsibility toward helping him.

I try to tell myself that helping may equal separating, at this point.

ETA: I'm going to do it regardless, if he misses our last agreement. I'll do it no matter how I feel, because at this point, I just have to try something different. Staying while I work, staying and stopping working . . . neither has worked.

 

[hopeful]

Seek God's grace, mercy, and healing to free you from the stronghold of feeling responsible for adult human beings, especially adult males, and particularly your husband.

 

[hopeful]

You deserve to focus on YOU, who you are, your dreams, and what makes you happy. Being married should make that easier to do, not harder.

 

[MsNaturalcurl82]

Hi, I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I know it hurts, but I know you'll figure this thing out. I think you have given him plenty of opportunity to get things in order. Has he ever considered what would happen if you lost your job or could not work? What would you all do then? He must remember you are financially supporting an entire family on your own, not to mention yourself. I don't think that you should beat yourself up too much, because you are doing what most black women do, which is what they have to do because they don't have the luxury of having any other choice. That's a lot for you to take on your own. It appears he has become extremely comfortable with his situation and has no motivation to change anything. I also want to ask, what was his family life growing up like? Were his parents married? Did he observe his father getting up going to work every morning and paying bills every month? Or, was he raised by a single working mother? Many young boys see their single mothers "bring home the bacon" then turn around and come home and cook it. So in essence, they see a woman taking care of them. Their friends mothers are in similar situations, raising young boys, Their sisters, aunts, and other female associates doing the same. This plants a message in the the minds of young boys that it's a woman's job to take care of a man and thus they become comfortable with it as an adult.

 

[MsNaturalcurl82]

We don't have children. We care for our nephews who lost their mother a couple of months ago. But I understand the gist of the post about children.

I always wanted children but have not due to the situation.

Oh I thought you all had children. But at least you were smart enough to hold off on having natural children until the situation improved. I'd make sure I didn't have any either until he was up to par. Who's nephews are those, your or his?

 

[mysblossom]

Hi, I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I know it hurts, but I know you'll figure this thing out. I think you have given him plenty of opportunity to get things in order. Has he ever considered what would happen if you lost your job or could not work? What would you all do then? He must remember you are financially supporting an entire family on your own, not to mention yourself. I don't think that you should beat yourself up too much, because you are doing what most black women do, which is what they have to do because they don't have the luxury of having any other choice. That's a lot for you to take on your own. It appears he has become extremely comfortable with his situation and has no motivation to change anything. I also want to ask, what was his family life growing up like? Were his parents married? Did he observe his father getting up going to work every morning and paying bills every month? Or, was he raised by a single working mother? Many young boys see their single mothers "bring home the bacon" then turn around and come home and cook it. So in essence, they see a woman taking care of them. Their friends mothers are in similar situations, raising young boys, Their sisters, aunts, and other female associates doing the same. This plants a message in the the minds of young boys that it's a woman's job to take care of a man and thus they become comfortable with it as an adult.

Hi. Thank you so much for the message. I've been at the hair salon getting my hair done for my birthday, so I have time to respond while I'm under the dryer.

He grew up watching all the men around him work and take care of their families. His dad continues to work in a separate city from the mom, but they are together. He comes home on the weekends.

My spouse has two brothers. They work and take care of their families.

 

[mysblossom]

Oh I thought you all had children. But at least you were smart enough to hold off on having natural children until the situation improved. I'd make sure I didn't have any either until he was up to par. Who's nephews are those, your or his?

Thank you for the message. Someone here on the thread asked me the same question! I explained that the nephews are on my side of the family.

Yes . . . at least we have no children of our own who are suffering behind this. My spirit wouldn't let me. I asked him if he would work if we had children. He answered, hurt, "If we had children, yes, of course I would work. You know me." I asked him, "So why not work for them NOW, before they are here?" More explanation of how he is trying to get a good paying job for them. That was like four years ago. Deep exhale.

 

[hopeful]

Is your dh the youngest son/child in his family?