All This Chatter About Dating White Men, And Frankly...

[bravenewgirl87]

I don't think that was the point some of us were trying to make. There are many levels between CEO and having nothing. I don't believe that attorneys are going after waitresses, because they are not. However, not every attorney is going after another attorney, doctor, or CPA. Two people can be on the same level intellectually without having equally prestigious careers and equal earnings. It all depends on what the individual is seeking.

I agree that men with degrees seek women with degrees, and these men are attracted to women with careers as opposed to jobs. However, many of these men are more attracted to the idea of having a home cooked meal when they get home than the idea of a wife who is working 45-70 hours a week. This is why I personally know many school teachers who married up. It's almost as if a school teacher was an attractive career to many of these successful men.

I understand where you coming from BUT,
A teacher and a lawyer are both two professionals. They have way more opportunity to meet one another. They have way opportunities to meet one another than a waitress and an attorney. It's about the access and I'm not one to get a pretty girl's hope up into thinking she's going to marry into riches just for being good-looking. Every girl wants that and every man is too savvy to give it to her.
Professionals live in completely different arenas than Bomquaqua on the street but people make it seem as if the come-up is that easy to obtain. I could understand a professor/college student falling for each other but, it seems as if this board disregard the obvious class-disparity. Quite a few members here seem to suggest that looks alone can get you access to well-off/powerful men.

I also resent the latter statement. That's cute, being Holly Homemaker. I, myself, am an excellent cook. But, if you're a modern man raised in a post-feminist society you probably expect to marry Superwoman, meaning she can do it all. Many professional men expect their women to be able to hold down the fort and bring home, at least, a sliver of bacon. The only group of men I've ever heard who would rather a woman be an old-fashioned homemaker --exclusively--are AA men. Non-black men who expect women to watch the kids and stay home typically are raised with mothers who were homemakers.

 

[BroadstreetBully]

I understand where you coming from BUT,
A teacher and a lawyer are both two professionals. They have way more opportunity to meet one another. They have way opportunities to meet one another than a waitress and an attorney. It's about the access and I'm not one to get a pretty girl's hope up into thinking she's going to marry into riches just for being good-looking. Every girl wants that and every man is too savvy to give it to her.
Professionals live in completely different arenas than Bomquaqua on the street but people make it seem as if the come-up is that easy to obtain. I could understand a professor/college student falling for each other but, it seems as if this board disregard the obvious class-disparity. Quite a few members here seem to suggest that looks alone can get you access to well-off/powerful men.

I also resent the latter statement. That's cute, being Holly Homemaker. I, myself, am an excellent cook. But, if you're a modern man raised in a post-feminist society you probably expect to marry Superwoman, meaning she can do it all. Many professional men expect their women to be able to hold down the fort and bring home, at least, a sliver of bacon. The only group of men I've ever heard who would rather a woman be an old-fashioned homemaker --exclusively--are AA men. Non-black men who expect women to watch the kids and stay home typically are raised with mothers who were homemakers.

We're on the same page, then.

As for the latter statement, I think you read it wrong. I was referring to men who want a woman with an education and a career, but also want her to be able to make time to be a wife. This is why some professional men choose women who do not have jobs that are as demanding. The 'power couple' model is not attractive to every man. Some women get too caught up in their credentials without considering that a man is trying to marry a wife and not a business partner. Some of these women get frustrated when they see professional men on their level overlook them for ladies who do not have careers or credentials that they deem as 'prestigious' as their own. They ignore the fact that these women might appear to be a better choice of mate to a particular professional male because these women can work, but can also make time to cook, clean, and take care of the children. Hence why I use the 'teacher' example a lot because I know many teachers who marry successful men.

 

[Glib Gurl]

Okay first off, let me readily admit that I am one of those over-educated black women who could benefit from a gym membership and therapy (although I have had both - still working out on the regular, jusrt need to get my eating on point). I am not a dime . . . never was. At best I am a nickel and a few pennies. So to some that alone - despite all of my other wonderful personal qualities beyond my intelligence - might disqualify me from chiming in on the whole "educated/marriageable black men" conversation.

BUT . . . let me say this. Over the last 10 years the black men who are "on my level" in terms of education/career/family background have made it clear that they do not want me. And I did not put in all those years of hard work and developing myself to be with someone who is not "on my level" intellectually and in terms of maturity - regardless of race (but Lord knows that those guys have steadily approached me over the years). To me, having that intellectual and social compatibility (in terms of class) trumps race and even religion - which is how I ended up with Dutch Chocolate.

SIDEBAR: My jealous bff went IN on me this weekend basically accusing me of being a race traitor for giving a chance to a corny white dude when I wouldn't give one to this corny black dude who tried to pursue me in college. I can't say that I wouldn't give the guy from college a chance if he were to approach me today....but back then I was still holding out for the fantasy of Denzel . . . only to realize as I grew older that the Denzels if the world are not checking for me . . . .

Speaking of bff, she is actually talking to a white dude right now through online dating but is divided about it. She said to me (and this is verbatim): "I *deserve* a well-educated, motivated, spiritual, hard-working, honest and sincere black man to have a family with!" My response to her? "Yeah, you and every other black woman who went to college."

All of this is to say that I agree with what I believe the OP's point - that we shouldn't limit ourselves to just one particular race of man because we could potentialy miss out on something great because it came in packaging different than what we expect.

The last thing I will say on this is that there is a young black dude in my office. He is good looking with a PhD. Comes from a good family and is smug as hell. He thinks he knows everything and is smarter than everyone else. As you can imagine we go back-and-forth on a number of issues. And do you know who he is checking for in our office? "Bonquisha" - the stank attitude ghetto chick who is the receptionist. Why? Because she doesn't have nearly the education he has (I think she went to Devry) and doesn't talk back.

*drops mic, exits stage*

(Please excuse the typos. I am posting from my blackberry )

 

[Bunny77]

I don't think that was the point some of us were trying to make. There are many levels between CEO and having nothing. I don't believe that attorneys are going after waitresses, because they are not. However, not every attorney is going after another attorney, doctor, or CPA. Two people can be on the same level intellectually without having equally prestigious careers and equal earnings. It all depends on what the individual is seeking.

I agree that men with degrees seek women with degrees, and these men are attracted to women with careers as opposed to jobs. However, many of these men are more attracted to the idea of having a home cooked meal when they get home than the idea of a wife who is working 45-70 hours a week. This is why I personally know many school teachers who married up. It's almost as if a school teacher was an attractive career to many of these successful men.

Actually, I think the bolded has been documented. In the book, "The Millionaire Next Door," it says that of wealthy men who have wives that work, the most common profession of those wives is "schoolteacher." Teachers are educated, yet usually don't have careers that are so demanding that they don't have time to tend to family and home -- which is what high-powered career men need.

This isn't to say either that a power couple can't work out well, but to make it work, one of the partners has to scale back his or her work. This task can alternate (maybe the woman works a lot early, then the man takes over when the kids come, etc.), but two 70-hour per week folks in a marriage isn't going to work out too well.

I think when the discussion comes up about educated women being good marriage prospects, the discussion often goes to the extreme (on both sides), when the answer is mainly what you just said up here.

I don't know too many well-educated and well-adjusted men who are seriously checking for LaQuita who works fries UNLESS they are specifically looking for someone to control who will always be dependent on him. Well-educated men usually do want someone who is in a similar realm as them in terms of education and life experience. If he went to college, he's probably looking for a college-educated wife as well.

That being said, whenever I hear the usual, "I worked hard, got X degrees, went to X university and am still single," I agree with the posters who say that these women are barking up the wrong tree. Those characteristics are well and good and appreciated by a man, but they don't make a woman more appealing as a MATE. That's why women are not advised to lay out their resumes on a first date -- it's not because men are "intimidated," but because they want to know more about what makes you, well, you. They talk about work all day with colleagues, they don't want a date, a girlfriend or a wife to be an extension of that.

So, if you have the great career and education, it won't HURT you at all with a man of equal status. It doesn't necessarily help you either -- your career success and dating life are two separate entities.

 

[NeauxOneCurr]

But if you chose him because of his personality, why couldn't you simply say that you chose a good man? I don't see why is race is relevant.

 

[Christelyn]

Glib, you're MY girl.

 

[Poohbear]

No cheating!
















I'm glad to see it. For too long, we black women have been subjugated (yep that's the right word) to having to bear the burden for the black man, suffer with him, suffer by him. This was supposed to prove we were strong black women, right? Lies, all of it. We aren't supposed to expect black men to MARRY US, support a family, and sire legitimate kids. Nope. That's ACTING WHITE!?! WTF???

I'm going to share my personal story with you. This is a cut and paste from a blog I wrote, and I think it pretty much sums up my experience:

Why I Married a White Guy.
ETA: All this hypothesizing about why I titled my post as it was, and finally, after reading all the supposed reasons, I'll divulge. Read carefully:

I titled the article as such because I would often get the question from my peers, "Why did you get with that white guy?" Mostly black friends asked this question. THE TITLE IS THE ANSWER.

I never buy generic cereal. If posed with a choice of Fruity Pebbles or some knockoff like Fruit Gravel, I pick the original every time. Yes, I know it’s cheaper to buy the no-name brand, but who wants to take the chance? Stay with what you know, I always say. I imagine there is a factory worker somewhere in the Mid West churning out fruit-flavored rice crisps and dropping them into various boxes and bags of different names for purchase, and shaking his head about the dumb schmucks who exert all their effort and money for the designer brand.

The thing about packaging is you get all caught up on what’s on the outside. I did this for most of my dating life. At eight years old, my ideal man was one of the DeBarge brothers--El, James, Mark or Randy—anyone of them would do. Their dark, curly locks bouncing against smooth caramel-colored skin as they sang pop tunes sent me swooning. I often wondered how it was possible for one set of parents to consistently produce an assembly of beautiful people. Talk about packaging. Anyway, I digress.

So when I found myself in college and pregnant out of wedlock with a man’s child who refused to marry me, my preconceptions of marriage and family had gone askew—I was dating a man whom I thought met the right criteria: black (like me), college-educated, and perhaps more importantly, he had never been to jail. But there was one huge snag—he had the most cockamamie ideals on marriage. Who could blame him? His father never married his mother, and he has a half-brother nine months his junior from another woman who lived in the same neighborhood as his mother. He’s almost 40, and just found out he has an 11-year-old half brother from some other random lady (who I might add, is not his father's wife). In retrospect, I suppose I couldn’t blame him if he thought marriage was extraneous.

We broke up when our daughter was seven months old. It was inevitable. I didn’t want to be a “baby momma” and I still had a fierce desire to marriage and family. The problem was that the further I got in my education and career, the slimmer the pickings of marriageable black men. If I wanted a mate who shared my values, it was time to totally rethink the packaging.

That’s when I decide to date someone white.

-------------------

End of story. Now, that said, don't get me wrong. I love the black men in my life. My brother is educated, married and at 40, desperately wants a child with his wife, and at this time, is not a "baby daddy". My father, God rest his soul, was a model for my ideal mate. And guess what? My hubby is a lot like him, except for one superficial difference. Color.

I'm glad so many women on this board are getting it.

WTH?!

Seems like you're advocating White man is better to marry. There are respectable Black men out there that are good husbands. You just happen to come across one Black man that didn't want to marry you. That's not a reflection on ALL Black men. Your husband being White is not the reason he was a good candidate for marriage. I hope you really truly realize that.

 

[Mz.MoMo5235]

i like this thread more and more when i come back to it.... its so interesting

i like seeing everyones view on this

 

[Twix]

I posted this thread with tongue loosely planted in cheek. I knew it would raise some eyebrows. But that was the point! I'm just glad the discussion is going. I'm glad that so many women are at least exploring the possibility of something new (pun intended). Twenty years ago, I never saw it. Now I see it a lot.

And for the women who have met, married and made a family with wonderful BLACK men: I love it. It gives me hope. I LOVE to see beautiful black families doing well. Frankly, it was my wish for myself. It didn't work out that way for me, but...it worked out. You know? Tis all. Smooches. I love ya'll.

So in other words, you posted this thread with the intent of being inflammatory for the sake of stirring things up? I would watch the line I tread personally, if I were you doing that; sounds a touch like trolling to me, and there's been banhammers swinging to and fro for awhile now.

That said.

Believe me--marriage was discussed by said man. He dangled it like a carrot. He used it a leverage to get me to "act like we were already married", kinda like a dress rehersal. I get it you guys--little did I know how much power I had over my own life....I realize I gave away something precious to someone who was ungrateful to receive it. But, I'm not in the minority. Something like 75 percent of black children are born out of wedlock. A lot of us are giving something away and getting little in return, and millions of children are suffering for it. Our children deserve to be born to intact families. We should not be teaching (either by omission or blatant approval) that having kids OOW is okay, because it is our struggle. Not acceptable. I take full responsibility for my foolishness. But then once I knew better, I did better.

This is an issue with education in a particular subset of the community, not the color of the skin. All aspects of it, sexual and not. We're raising a community and a race with low morals and calling it good. There's so much more that I want to say about this, but I've not read the rest of the thread past this point and am really not in the mood to soapbox on this right now...

 

[tuffCOOKiE]

How do you think your DH feels that you married him as a backup instead of the fact that he was good for you?

I know that may not be what you're saying but that's what it sounds like.

 

[ceebee3]

So Bonquisha does not deserve and attractive black man with a PhD because she went to Devry?

 

[bravenewgirl87]

We're on the same page, then.

As for the latter statement, I think you read it wrong. I was referring to men who want a woman with an education and a career, but also want her to be able to make time to be a wife. This is why some professional men choose women who do not have jobs that are as demanding. The 'power couple' model is not attractive to every man. Some women get too caught up in their credentials without considering that a man is trying to marry a wife and not a business partner. Some of these women get frustrated when they see professional men on their level overlook them for ladies who do not have careers or credentials that they deem as 'prestigious' as their own. They ignore the fact that these women might appear to be a better choice of mate to a particular professional male because these women can work, but can also make time to cook, clean, and take care of the children. Hence why I use the 'teacher' example a lot because I know many teachers who marry successful men.

RIIIIGHT! We were always on the same page! But, I don't want to give anyone false hope in thinking that they are going to stay home and eat bon-bons.

 

[zenith]

So Bonquisha does not deserve and attractive black man with a PhD because she went to Devry?

egads that the receptionist gets married to an educated, wealthy man who loves her and moves up the ladder socially and financially. Only thugs and bums are supposed to be checking out for them, after all, she ain't that educated!!

 

[beans08]

So Bonquisha does not deserve and attractive black man with a PhD because she went to Devry?

I think I've seen enough of Glib Gurl's posts to know she doesn't mean that, but it does seem to be a running theme in some of these threads about finding a good man. There's a whole laundry list of things you have to do to find "the perfect man". Bonquishas usually don't measure up.

 

[Christelyn]

How do you think your DH feels that you married him as a backup instead of the fact that he was good for you?

I know that may not be what you're saying but that's what it sounds like.

Actually, last year I thanked Baby Daddy for NOT marrying me, because HE inadvertently changed the trajectory of my life. I LOVE my life with my husband. He was not the next-best thing--he was the best thing. Not only is he great, but I have the whole package...a man who respects me and lives to make me happy (his words), respects what I do as a stay at home mom, gave me three more beautiful, beautiful children, he bought me a 3,000+ square foot dream house (which is a beast to clean but that's another story), he comes from a loving, well-to-do family that bankrolls our vacations on occasion, has a great sense of humor, loves to laugh, is my fiercest ally and LOVES MY OLDEST DD like she came from his jeans/genes. (Proof: DD told me she feels that, and loves both dad's EQUALLY. This is the best compliment that I know I did the right thing by her, and made the right choice for me.

Sorry so long, but I just felt like people need to know the REAL reason I married this guy, who just happened to be white.

ETA: I remember Baby Daddy scoffing when he met my then-future DH. Now BD is calling me, trying to figure out how he can get into my husband's line of work!

 

[pookaloo83]

What is a stay and home mom? Anybody? I have read this a few times. Am I out the loop?

 

[DayStar]

Stop playing Stay-At-Home-Mom

bloodseed

What is a stay and home mom? Anybody? I have read this a few times. Am I out the loop?

 

[Christelyn]

What is a stay and home mom? Anybody? I have read this a few times. Am I out the loop?

Come, on now. A SAHM is a wife and mother who stays at home and whose primary job is to care for the children, keep the house, organize and facilitate social events, schedule and go to doctor's appointments, play dates, keep close contact with teachers and schedule conferences as needed, be there to change diapers, breast feed, see baby's first steps, be an in-home tutor, cook gourmet meals for a hardworking husband, clean the bathrooms, mop the floors, dust EVERYTHING, vacuum, wash dishes, put dishes away, wash some more, start and tend an organic garden, plan vacations, have sex with tired, horny husband, kiss boo-boos, be the family historian...

And do the same thing the next day.

 

[pookaloo83]

Come, on now. A SAHM is a wife and mother who stays at home and whose primary job is to care for the children, keep the house, organize and facilitate social events, schedule and go to doctor's appointments, play dates, keep close contact with teachers and schedule conferences as needed, be there to change diapers, breast feed, see baby's first steps, be an in-home tutor, cook gourmet meals for a hardworking husband, clean the bathrooms, mop the floors, dust EVERYTHING, vacuum, wash dishes, put dishes away, wash some more, start and tend an organic garden, plan vacations, have sex with tired, horny husband, kiss boo-boos, be the family historian...

And do the same thing the next day.

Yes. That's a Stay AT Home Mom. But What is a Stay AND home mom? Or are you mistaken and meant to say Stay AT home mom?

 

[BroadstreetBully]

I think I've seen enough of Glib Gurl's posts to know she doesn't mean that, but it does seem to be a running theme in some of these threads about finding a good man. There's a whole laundry list of things you have to do to find "the perfect man". Bonquishas usually don't measure up.

Exactly, but let's not forget that often the main ones complaining about there not being any good men left are the ones who have it all. I say this as an 'educated' woman. My education is an asset but I've learned that there is so much more a man is looking for in a woman. Mind you, I'm in a university program that is 95% male and made up of science/engineering students, most are pursuing advanced degrees at this point. The ones who are taken are with all types of women.

 

[Christelyn]

^^^Got to love the edit button!

 

[Bint Yusef]

Okay first off, let me readily admit that I am one of those over-educated black women who could benefit from a gym membership and therapy (although I have had both - still working out on the regular, jusrt need to get my eating on point). I am not a dime . . . never was. At best I am a nickel and a few pennies. So to some that alone - despite all of my other wonderful personal qualities beyond my intelligence - might disqualify me from chiming in on the whole "educated/marriageable black men" conversation.

BUT . . . let me say this. Over the last 10 years the black men who are "on my level" in terms of education/career/family background have made it clear that they do not want me. And I did not put in all those years of hard work and developing myself to be with someone who is not "on my level" intellectually and in terms of maturity - regardless of race (but Lord knows that those guys have steadily approached me over the years). To me, having that intellectual and social compatibility (in terms of class) trumps race and even religion - which is how I ended up with Dutch Chocolate.

SIDEBAR: My jealous bff went IN on me this weekend basically accusing me of being a race traitor for giving a chance to a corny white dude when I wouldn't give one to this corny black dude who tried to pursue me in college. I can't say that I wouldn't give the guy from college a chance if he were to approach me today....but back then I was still holding out for the fantasy of Denzel . . . only to realize as I grew older that the Denzels if the world are not checking for me . . . .

Speaking of bff, she is actually talking to a white dude right now through online dating but is divided about it. She said to me (and this is verbatim): "I *deserve* a well-educated, motivated, spiritual, hard-working, honest and sincere black man to have a family with!" My response to her? "Yeah, you and every other black woman who went to college."

All of this is to say that I agree with what I believe the OP's point - that we shouldn't limit ourselves to just one particular race of man because we could potentialy miss out on something great because it came in packaging different than what we expect.

The last thing I will say on this is that there is a young black dude in my office. He is good looking with a PhD. Comes from a good family and is smug as hell. He thinks he knows everything and is smarter than everyone else. As you can imagine we go back-and-forth on a number of issues. And do you know who he is checking for in our office? "Bonquisha" - the stank attitude ghetto chick who is the receptionist. Why? Because she doesn't have nearly the education he has (I think she went to Devry) and doesn't talk back.

*drops mic, exits stage*

(Please excuse the typos. I am posting from my blackberry )

You have unwavering qualifications that trump race and the black men you met that you say did not want you have unwavering qualifications that trump your degrees? So you have things you are unwilling to bend for as is the Ph.D in your office that is going after the secretary despite you having more education than her. Where exactly is the problem? Looks like everyone is going after what they feel is a priority.

 

[Glib Gurl]

So Bonquisha does not deserve and attractive black man with a PhD because she went to Devry?

I never said that . . . my belief is that everyone deserves someone who they get along with and are compatible with . . . whether they went to Harvard or Morehouse or NO HOUSE It's just that the difference between their educational backgrounds (and intelligence in general, cuz, uh, on the real Bonquisha is kinda dumb ) makes me question THAT particular pairing. But I know this is just one instance. Educational background is not synonymous with intelligence. I know tons of brilliant people who went to not-so-stellar institutions or skipped college altogether; conversely, I know plenty of educated fools who earned degrees from some of the finest colleges in the world.

egads that the receptionist gets married to an educated, wealthy man who loves her and moves up the ladder socially and financially. Only thugs and bums are supposed to be checking out for them, after all, she ain't that educated!!

In this instance, it's not "just" that she doesn't have an education . . . you will recall that I also highlighted her "stank" attitude and ghetto mentality . . . and the dude with the PhD has neither. (Well, okay, his attitude is stank in that he is a know it all ) But in terms of class and educational background, they seem to have very little in common . . . when he engages with me, we discuss (often opposing views) about books, theories, and ideas? With her, he just runs his mouth and she just sits there being spoonfed ideas and nodding her head. So maybe that is the attraction. I argue, she listens. But again, in terms of personality, it seems that they have little in common . . . but her silent acceptance of his viewpoint being "right" is what makes her attractive to him, I guess. (I should say that except for the fact that I'm much heavier than her, we're about the same in the looks category . . . so it's not like she's Halle Berry or something.)

I think I've seen enough of Glib Gurl's posts to know she doesn't mean that, but it does seem to be a running theme in some of these threads about finding a good man. There's a whole laundry list of things you have to do to find "the perfect man". Bonquishas usually don't measure up.

You said it more eloquently than I did.

You have unwavering qualifications that trump race and the black men you met that you say did not want you have unwavering qualifications that trump your degrees? So you have things you are unwilling to bend for as is the Ph.D in your office that is going after the secretary despite you having more education than her. Where exactly is the problem? Looks like everyone is going after what they feel is a priority.

I'm not saying it's a problem - just using it as an example to support OP's notion that we need to look beyond the obvious and open up our options . . . otherwise we might miss a good thing. As you say, he has criteria that are more important to him than a woman's educational background . . . and that's his perogative. I'm just saying that we highly educated black women need to stop holding our breath for that highly educated black man because we may not be the one that he's looking for . . . as many other posters have said, intelligence/education is just one set of many factors . . . and having strong academic credentials doesn't mean you're a good person or would be a good partner. So, just as our educated brothers are exploring all of their options, we must do the same.

 

[UmSumayyah]

So Bonquisha does not deserve and attractive black man with a PhD because she went to Devry?

Now it's a class thread. Happy, Bunny?

 

[lesedi]

Do you. (this applies to everyone)

 

[1QTPie]

It ain't no problem for me. I was talking to HER specifically, so unless you felt that what I said applied to YOU..what's YOUR beef?! Ya know that phrase about WHO screams loudest, right?

Let me be clear. I'm not offended by her initial post because it doesn't apply to me. I don't have a beef. What I do have a problem with is loose generalizations and accusatory tones of your posts as if those who DO have a problem with the OP are somehow lacking common sense. That's what I have a problem with. I know you were addressing her, but you were talking about folks without naming names. And I spoke on it. Period.

 

[mnemosyne]

Wow this thread is still alive.

 

[Bunny77]

Now it's a class thread. Happy, Bunny?

Yes, now I'm happy!

(j/k)

I'll beat the Bonquisha and the Ph.D. dead horse one more time, because there's something that I wanted to add.

Is Mr. Ph.D. checking for Bonquisha as a future WIFE, or is he just trying to holla?

Now, not saying that Bonquisha doesn't "deserve" to be Mrs. Ph.D. Personally, I don't care... but I often don't make too many assumptions from which person is simply trying to get with someone else... unless he's put a ring on some woman's finger.

I'm wondering if he's still in the "I'ma play around" phase and he's all up in Bonquisha's face, but when he's 38 years old and ready to settle down , he'll go after Tiffany?

Either way, these types of men get on my nerves in general.

 

[yeahisaidit]

Very interesting viewpoints... Please, continue.

 

[UmSumayyah]

Very interesting viewpoints... Please, continue.

Well... you could contribute a thought.