It's possible! 0" to SL in 1 year! (pic heavy)

[Nonie]

@JeterCrazed

This question was not directed at me, but the collarbone, or clavicle, is below the neck and above the shoulders blades. This is why I have never understood people saying bottom of neck, collar bone, and SL are the same. The difference may be several inches or only a couple, depending on your body.

It doesn't matter how many charts people make up, or how many shoulders a person draws onto someone's else's body. Your shoulders are below your collar. Your collar is below your neck.

@JeterCrazed, @Solitude not in English: Collarbone is not above SHOULDERS. The names of bones have little to do with the names of body parts. As I posted previously, what in English we call shoulders is not where the bone with a similar name is located, and the same applies to hips and hipbone.

Also the image you selected is misleading because if you know anatomy, what's being shown here is the top of the shoulder blade (scapula) as viewed from anterior (front). The shoulder blade is a triangular bone that sticks out in the back on most people and it is its position on the back that led us to select it in lieu of BSL to determine the next level after APL because it is going to remain constant in everyone (unlike bras) and it is a good milestone between APL and MBL. The position of the bone does not mean shoulders now fall below APL because bones and body parts do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Here's an image showing the side view of a human skeleton:

Source of image: http://faculty.tcc.fl.edu/scma/aplab/Practical Two/Appendicular/Pectoralgirdle.htm

So what your image is pointing at where it says "scapula/shoulder girdle" is the arm of the scapula (shoulder-blade) known as the acromion that joins the clavicle (collarbone). But the bones themselves regardless of what name they are given have nothing to do with body parts.

When we refer to our shoulders, we are talking about the top part of our torso that is covered by flesh and skin and that we can see. No one is talking about bones when they refer to their shoulders. The noun refers to the body part shown below:

So if hair reaches that part, then it has reached shoulders. That the shoulders are wide and slant down so that the lowest part is at the level of the clavicle is the only reason many of use wait to get to the clavicle to claim SL because that is the final point at which one can be at shoulder length. It is for this reason we call it FULL SL, because beyond that, you are no longer at SL. From the point you leave NL until you reach your collarbone, you are indeed at your shoulders. Not at your SHOULDER BLADE but at your SHOULDERS.

ETA: These images show how the shoulder bone appears when viewed over flesh:

For our purposes here on LHCF, the next length after APL is when hair gets to and passes the lowest point of the shoulder blade, hence the BSB (below shoulder blade) mark that I show below--this image below BTW wasn't created for this discussion so ignore all the other stuff about MBL; I am using it just to show the area we now use in lieu of BSL:

 

[allmundjoi]

Lol Nonie and the anatomy lesson.

 

[Nonie]

@Nonie, I've lurked for long enough to see you dropping knowledge on peeps so I bow to you. I totally get that on LHCF OP would be considered SL but I think people who disagree with the OPs claim to SL are doing so because they are using real life terminology to describe SL hair rather than LHCF terminology. In fact my own hair is of that length, but to me, my hair is bottom of my neck length even though the nape stretches to my collar bone.

@YaaAsantewaa, I totally hear you and even I have stated over and over again that on Google SL is not what we deem SL to be on LHCF. And I do also understand you not wanting to claim it for yourself--heck I didn't either.

But what I don't agree with is us using OUR own standards to judge what until this thread has so far been LHCF's way of determining length. It was always where/which line straight hair touched when viewed from the back, not where it fell or in the case of SL, if it covered shoulders. Heck when people claim MBL and WL etc, most stretch the hair to show it touches the line that goes through that point. So all I'm saying is, if one sees a claim they do not agree with, just KIM and do you. You don't have to claim it when you get there if that's not your truth. Instead when it comes to you, post what you feel comfortable calling whatever. But let's not change up the script now when since 2003 when I first joined, thiings were always done the way I've been trying to explain in this thread: that is, length determined by the line on the chart that the back of one's hair touched when straight or stretched if natural.

 

[blueberryd]

When you sing the song, "Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes", people/kids generally don't touch the base of their neck, they usually will touch the tip of their shoulders--which is what SL should be IMO....not directed toward OP--lol jus jumpin in the SL debate

 

[danniegirl]

When you sing the song, "Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes", people/kids generally don't touch the base of their neck, they usually will touch the tip of their shoulders--which is what SL should be IMO....not directed toward OP--lol jus jumpin in the SL debate

I want to jump in too

We touch the tip of our shoulders in that song but when we are rubbing our shoulders we don't just rub the tip.

So dont just rub the tip lmao ladies embrace the whole thing it so much more then just the tip.


Sent from my iPod touch using LHCF

 

[Nonie]

When you sing the song, "Head, Shoulders, Knees, and Toes", people/kids generally don't touch the base of their neck, they usually will touch the tip of their shoulders--which is what SL should be IMO....not directed toward OP--lol jus jumpin in the SL debate

I want to jump in too

We touch the tip of our shoulders in that song but when we are rubbing our shoulders we don't just rub the tip.

So dont just rub the tip lmao ladies embrace the whole thing it so much more then just the tip.


Sent from my iPod touch using LHCF

I agree with you @danniegirl; I particularly love your last line^^ (in bold).

@blueberryd LOL @ bringing out the song. But I think that's just because we're moving fast and usually whip our hands outwards before bringing them knees. I have always just tapped the center of my shoulder not just the tip. English is my third language and even back when I learned that song in nursery school, I never understood it to just mean that the tip is the shoulder. I clearly understood it as shown in this diagram from www.judyanddavid.com:

So let's embrace the whole thing, as danniegirl suggests.

 

[Theresamonet]

This debate kind of made me think back to the thread where we were asked "what is long hair to you" and so many people were arguing that SL hair was long hair. Now this thread makes me wonder what those posters had in mind when they were saying that Sl was long hair. I can't imagine that they mean't that someone with a 3 inch neck with 3.5 inches of nape hair has long hair. I think in our minds we imagine SL hair to be longer than where our shoulders actually start.

I think what a poster above said about APL being SL hair in real life, is true. We have convoluted that area in an effort to have a milestone at every turn. We have NL, CBL, SL, FSL, and APL all in a relatively small area. There is bound to be confusion.

 

[DrC]

I agree with you @danniegirl; I particularly love your last line^^ (in bold).

@blueberryd LOL @ bringing out the song. But I think that's just because we're moving fast and usually whip our hands outwards before bringing them knees. I have always just tapped the center of my shoulder not just the tip. English is my third language and even back when I learned that song in nursery school, I never understood it to just mean that the tip is the shoulder. I clearly understood it as shown in this diagram from www.judyanddavid.com:

So let's embrace the whole thing, as danniegirl suggests.

 

[pookaloo83]

Nonie you got me in stitches!

 

[Amerie123]

CONGRATS on your progress OP !!!!!!!!! Your hair looks very healthy!!!

 

[blueberryd]

LMAO! Ahhhh touche' @danniegirl and @Nonie

How about we invent a new length--TRAPEZIUS length! LMAO jk!
Have a good night ladies

 

[Nonie]

LMAO! touche' @danniegirl and @Nonie

How about we invent a new length--TRAPEZIUS length! LMAO jk!
Have a good night ladies

blueberryd, you're so silly! So how are we going to know where the muscle ends when covered with skin?

Girl, we already have enough probs so shshshsh... Don't give us ideas to start skinning folks.

 

[Ladybelle]

LMAO! Ahhhh touche' @danniegirl and @Nonie

How about we invent a new length--TRAPEZIUS length! LMAO jk!
Have a good night ladies

Sent from my PC36100 using PC36100

 

[Ladybelle]

@JeterCrazed, @Solitude not in English: Collarbone is not above SHOULDERS. The names of bones have little to do with the names of body parts. As I posted previously, what in English we call shoulders is not where the bone with a similar name is located, and the same applies to hips and hipbone.

Also the image you selected is misleading because if you know anatomy, what's being shown here is the top of the shoulder blade (scapula) as viewed from anterior (front). The shoulder blade is a triangular bone that sticks out in the back on most people and it is its position on the back that led us to select it in lieu of BSL to determine the next level after APL because it is going to remain constant in everyone (unlike bras) and it is a good milestone between APL and MBL. The position of the bone does not mean shoulders now fall below APL because bones and body parts do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Here's an image showing the side view of a human skeleton:

Source of image: http://faculty.tcc.fl.edu/scma/aplab/Practical Two/Appendicular/Pectoralgirdle.htm

So what your image is pointing at where it says "scapula/shoulder girdle" is the arm of the scapula (shoulder-blade) known as the acromion that joins the clavicle (collarbone). But the bones themselves regardless of what name they are given have nothing to do with body parts.

When we refer to our shoulders, we are talking about the top part of our torso that is covered by flesh and skin and that we can see. No one is talking about bones when they refer to their shoulders. The noun refers to the body part shown below:

So if hair reaches that part, then it has reached shoulders. That the shoulders are wide and slant down so that the lowest part is at the level of the clavicle is the only reason many of use wait to get to the clavicle to claim SL because that is the final point at which one can be at shoulder length. It is for this reason we call it FULL SL, because beyond that, you are no longer at SL. From the point you leave NL until you reach your collarbone, you are indeed at your shoulders. Not at your SHOULDER BLADE but at your SHOULDERS.

ETA: These images show how the shoulder bone appears when viewed over flesh:

For our purposes here on LHCF, the next length after APL is when hair gets to and passes the lowest point of the shoulder blade, hence the BSB (below shoulder blade) mark that I show below--this image below BTW wasn't created for this discussion so ignore all the other stuff about MBL; I am using it just to show the area we now use in lieu of BSL:

And this is what I was getting at earlier in the thread, the actual shoulders sit well below what we call SL, I know this b/c I took anatomy & even though we call a certain part the shoulders, its not accurate - we just call it that. No other body part is as misnamed as the shoulder, every other part is at the same place, skin or no skin - a tibia is a tibia is a tibia, why not the shoulder then too? I dont get it, but I play along to keep confusion down. Also why I was thrown off b/c it seems some were basing SL on the actual shoulder & I dont think its because of the English language, its because most people donf really know accurate anatomy. What we call SL isnt really. what we call SL is really upper back, below the neck, collar bone, clavice- but not SL.

I mean, dont we have some nurses or Dr's on here we know the truth?

@Nonie?
Sent from my PC36100 using PC36100

 

[Ladybelle]

And this is what I was getting at earlier in the thread, the actual shoulders sit well below what we call SL, I know this b/c I took anatomy & even though we call a certain part the shoulders, its not accurate - we just call it that. No other body part is as misnamed as the shoulder, every other part is at the same place, skin or no skin - a tibia is a tibia is a tibia, why not the shoulder then too? I dont get it, but I play along to keep confusion down. Also why I was thrown off b/c it seems some were basing SL on the actual shoulder & I dont think its because of the English language, its because most people don't really know accurate anatomy. What we call SL isnt really, not if we're being technical. The area we call SL is really clavicle, collar bone, neck bone, stermum maybe & a bit of the top back bone, not the shoulder though..... Nope.

I mean, dont we have some nurses or Dr's on here we know the truth?

Nonie?
Sent from my PC36100 using PC36100

Double post

Sent from my PC36100 using PC36100

 

[Ladybelle]

I think this pic is the most accurate in correctly showing how the shoulders sit in the human body. The red, purple and blue arrows show where the shoulders actually are - and technically SL is much lower on the body that what we claim. The shoulders are not and have never been that high on the body and, unless you've got too much cushion/flesh, you can reach around your body & feel your shoulder. At the very least you can see them in the mirror.

And, the clavicle does indeed rest above the scapula. They connect, but the clavicle is on top. That's really what people touch when we say they are touching our shoulders. I don't need a chart to tell me that either, because I remember being in anatomy class holding the bones & the professor illustrating where the shoulders/clavicle actually is and all that time I had it wrong.


Not to turn this into an anatomy lesson or nothing, but it is what it is.

 

[NaturalPath]

So I have taken anatomy and physiology since I am at a chiropractic college (chiros really know their bones lol) so because their seems to be a lot of confusion of where exactly the hair length landmarks are. The most accurate way of depicting this IMO is to go by vertebrae levels (which I am sure everyone has someone they can ask to help define these points).

End of neck length: C7 (most prominent bump on your cervical spine); since anatomically the cervical (neck) vertebrae is from C1-C7.

Shoulder length:

1. Anatomically: At the beginning of T3 this is where the horizontal plane of the root of the scapular spine is located.
2. Physically: T1 represents the beginning of the thoracic area which would represents where you see the physical shoulders of a person.

**Honestly, I think either locations are fairly accurate, if you go to the doctor and complain of shoulder pain then they will understand that you mean from the T1 aspect or where the trapezius kind of begins.

**As has already been mentioned the clavicle sits superiority to the scapula and therefore is not represented as being on the same level as the scapula nor what is determined as being SL

Arm pit length: Easy to define, no real cause for controversy

Below Shoulder Blade: Horizontal plane of the Inferior angle of the scapula in relation to the human spine is located at T8 (previously located at T7)
**No longer using Bra Strap Length since everyone's bra straps are variable and not consistent with daily use

(natural)Waist length : Variable, easy to distinguish no real cause for controversy

MBL: At T12 represents the halfway point between the inferior angle of the scapula (T7/T8) ---> superior margin of the iliac crests

Hip length:L4/ L5 where your hands are placed sitting on top of superior margin of the iliac crests



**** Oh and you can not use the Trapezius as it is such a LARGE spanding muscle extending from C7-T12

 

[Ladybelle]

So I have taken anatomy and physiology since I am at a chiropractic college (chiros really know their bones lol) so because their seems to be a lot of confusion of where exactly the hair length landmarks are. The most accurate way of depicting this IMO is to go by vertebrae levels (which I am sure everyone has someone they can ask to help define these points).

End of neck length: C7 (most prominent bump on your cervical spine); since anatomically the cervical (neck) vertebrae is from C1-C7.

Shoulder length:

1. Anatomically: At the beginning of T3 this is where the horizontal plane of the root of the scapular spine is located.
2. Physically: T1 represents the beginning of the thoracic area which would represents where you see the physical shoulders of a person.

**Honestly, I think either locations are fairly accurate, if you go to the doctor and complain of shoulder pain then they will understand that you mean from the T1 aspect or where the trapezius kind of begins.

**As has already been mentioned the clavicle sits superiority to the scapula and therefore is not represented as being on the same level as the scapula nor what is determined as being SL

Arm pit length: Easy to define, no real cause for controversy

Below Shoulder Blade: Horizontal plane of the Inferior angle of the scapula in relation to the human spine is located at T8 (previously located at T7)
**No longer using Bra Strap Length since everyone's bra straps are variable and not consistent with daily use

(natural)Waist length : Variable, easy to distinguish no real cause for controversy

MBL: At T12 represents the halfway point between the inferior angle of the scapula (T7/T8) ---> superior margin of the iliac crests

Hip length:L4/ L5 where your hands are placed sitting on top of superior margin of the iliac crests



**** Oh and you can not use the Trapezius as it is such a LARGE spanding muscle extending from C7-T12

(((HUGS))) Thank you for clarifying that!

 

[wavezncurlz]

OMG.
THIS IS WHY I DON'T TRY TO SAY HOW LONG MY HAIR IS.

 

[JeterCrazed]

I agree with you @danniegirl; I particularly love your last line^^ (in bold).

@blueberryd LOL @ bringing out the song. But I think that's just because we're moving fast and usually whip our hands outwards before bringing them knees. I have always just tapped the center of my shoulder not just the tip. English is my third language and even back when I learned that song in nursery school, I never understood it to just mean that the tip is the shoulder. I clearly understood it as shown in this diagram from www.judyanddavid.com:

So let's embrace the whole thing, as danniegirl suggests.

Whooooo!!!!!!!

 

[Nonie]

And this is what I was getting at earlier in the thread, the actual shoulders sit well below what we call SL, I know this b/c I took anatomy & even though we call a certain part the shoulders, its not accurate - we just call it that.

Sorry, I call this BS. Bone names have never had anything to do with body parts. So no, what we calls shoulders is what shoulders are. Who said that bone names determined body parts? Where on earth did you get this lie from?

The word "shoulder" came into the English language before the 12th century. It referred and has always referred to the top part of the torso that starts from the bottom of the neck to the part where the arm joins the torso. So what do you mean it's inaccurate? The word scapula aka shoulder blade came into the English language in 1578 and refers to the trianglular bone in the back. The shoulder girdle is covered with flesh and skin and is that top surface after you've added flesh and skin that is SHOULDER. Not the bones.

No other body part is as misnamed as the shoulder, every other part is at the same place, skin or no skin - a tibia is a tibia is a tibia, why not the shoulder then too? I dont get it, but I play along to keep confusion down. Also why I was thrown off b/c it seems some were basing SL on the actual shoulder & I dont think its because of the English language, its because most people donf really know accurate anatomy. What we call SL isnt really. what we call SL is really upper back, below the neck, collar bone, clavice- but not SL.

I don't understand how come you are not able to separate science from everyday language. I mean, no one speaking in layman terms talks about tibia, femur etc. And you are wrong about there not being any other part of the body that has names that don't correspond with the bones. I just talked about hips and hipbone earlier. One's way higher than the other. I mean, if you're going to be so literal, then what's the funny bone? Is it near the funny? And is the collar bone up by the neck where the collar sits? And why do we have one breast bone when we have two breast and why isn't it inside the breasts? (Oh dear, it's in the wrong place!).

I mean, dont we have some nurses or Dr's on here we know the truth?

'
I'm neither, but I also did anatomy and physiology and also took English and I know enough to know that the two fields should not be confused with each other. The only time a bone becomes important in this hair chart is when it's a bone that sticks out (like the collarbone which happens to be at the lowest level of shoulder so works as a check for "final point of SL"; and the shoulder blade because it too sticks out in the back at the point where BSL would be so works better since its position is constant; and the hipbone, because it too sticks out right after the waist) so you can feel it outside the skin. The other parts are obvious: waist goes in, hips go out, tailbone is at the top of butt crack, middle of back is halfway down the back, etc.

 

[pookaloo83]

Nonie go hard in the paint!

 

[yorkpatties]

And you are wrong about there not being any other part of the body that has names that don't correspond with the bones. I just talked about hips and hipbone earlier. One's way higher than the other. I mean, if you're going to be so literal, then what's the funny bone? Is it near the funny?

EPIC WIN!!!

 

[kittenz]

Sorry, I call this BS. Bone names have never had anything to do with body parts. So no, what we calls shoulders is what shoulders are. Who said that bone names determined body parts? Where on earth did you get this lie from?

The word "shoulder" came into the English language before the 12th century. It referred and has always referred to the top part of the torso that starts from the bottom of the neck to the part where the arm joins the torso. So what do you mean it's inaccurate? The word scapula aka shoulder blade came into the English language in 1578 and refers to the trianglular bone in the back. The shoulder girdle is covered with flesh and skin and is that top surface after you've added flesh and skin that is SHOULDER. Not the bones.



I don't understand how come you are not able to separate science from everyday language. I mean, no one speaking in layman terms talks about tibia, femur etc. And you are wrong about there not being any other part of the body that has names that don't correspond with the bones. I just talked about hips and hipbone earlier. One's way higher than the other. I mean, if you're going to be so literal, then what's the funny bone? Is it near the funny? And is the collar bone up by the neck where the collar sits? And why do we have one breast bone when we have two breast and why isn't it inside the breasts? (Oh dear, it's in the wrong place!).


'
I'm neither, but I also did anatomy and physiology and also took English and I know enough to know that the two fields should not be confused with each other. The only time a bone becomes important in this hair chart is when it's a bone that sticks out (like the collarbone which happens to be at the lowest level of shoulder so works as a check for "final point of SL"; and the shoulder blade because it too sticks out in the back at the point where BSL would be so works better since its position is constant; and the hipbone, because it too sticks out right after the waist) so you can feel it outside the skin. The other parts are obvious: waist goes in, hips go out, tailbone is at the top of butt crack, middle of back is halfway down the back, etc.

I LOVE ALL OF THIS!! Extra points for the bolded.

 

[lesedi]

I agree with the poster who said OP is probably WSL now after all this back and forth

 

[naturalgyrl5199]

No one is being length police and no one is throwing shade and "Keeping it real" is a joke. You don't even know me like that so don't go there. Yes people are struggling with their journey. However, I refuse to lie to another person because it is the "polite" thing to do. I would rather someone be honest and upfront with me then lie and compliment me on something they KNOW is not true. If a person tells me the truth, at least I would know better how to proceed with my journey. It was a simple statement and it is funny to me how people took it to a whole different level. "Hating, keeping it real, etc." All of that is still not going to change my mind. She is still not there yet. She is making progress but she is still NOT there yet. So call it what you will.

This thread reminds me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM

No I don't know you and I am not trying to start anything with you. I didn't even realize YOU were the one who made a comment, or were the person Lucie was thinking of (I guess). Not only that but I don't even remember me or Lucie even mentioning your name!!!! So why the hell are u even addressing me? Now--- I noticed a few ppl did make comments of that nature but since you stepped up then fine.

All I am saying is sometimes we go out of our way to point something out to someone in the name of "not lying to people" which is fine, but people don't realize how negative it can be. You choose to go out of your way correcting what you think is a mistake, and I choose to let them feel the way they want to. So that does make u the Police! I mean really---if you chose NOT to correct her that would've been just fine. But noooo, some ppl can't sleep unless they set someone straight bc they don't some1 to be walkin around thinking something else....furthermore if he feels SL is a certain spot on her shoulders then damn let it be!!! All this is just semantics. Its not about hating its just some daggone tomfoolery at this point....

I just thought this site was supposed to be about positivity. At the same time, you still seem to be painting all others who choose not to "correct her mistake" as a bunch of fakers or liars and that's not cool. I can understand the desire not to lie, but don't paint every1 with the same brush.....You have your opinion, I have mine...Oh well.

 

[Tamster]

This thread is so damn extra!!!!!

 

[Tamrin]

No I don't know you and I am not trying to start anything with you. I didn't even realize YOU were the one who made a comment, or were the person Lucie was thinking of (I guess). I noticed many did make comments of that nature but since you stepped up then fine. All I am saying is sometimes we go out of our way to point something out to someone in the name of "not lying to people" which is fine, but people don't realize how negative it can be. You choose to go out of your way correcting what you think is a mistake, and I choose to let them feel the way they want to. I just thought this site was supposed to be about positivity. At the same time, you still seem to be painting all others who choose not to "correct her mistake" as a bunch of fakers or liars and that's not cool. I can understand the desire not to lie, but don't paint every1 with the same brush.....You have your opinion, I have mine...Oh well.

I also have my opinion but please show me where I SAID everyone here are liars. Or better yet show me where I discouraged OP. We all have opinions and I don't have to change mine to make you or OP happy. Be happy with your opinion as I'am with mine. It is hilarious how this thread got this far due to the fact I said I don't agree with the OP's opinion of what SL is. What was the all " keeping it real" about? If I was, I choose to be real with myself. I honestly don't give a hoot what someone else thinks. It is my opinion and I intend to keep it so until I see different. All the extras are totally unnecessary. There is no hating, no keeping it real, no taking away shine, no nothing. OP is not SL to ME that is all that matters to ME. I can say it in this thread just like you are free to disagree. All the extra that is not there other people are seeing is funny. Let OP be great with her opinion of SL.

I have been been at APL, chopped off it to 1.5 inches, I'm waay past where OP is now at 14 months and I'm not going to claim SL, cause to me it is not. That is MY opinion like it or not I don't need anyone to agree. Just like OP don't need to agree with me. To me paying attention to the opinions that does not agree is a way to look at yourself more objectively.

The whole this forum is a positive place to me. Being positive does not mean you have to be false about your views. When I started a thread about being natural and not doing the extras everyone else is doing, I'm sure people probably ( not sure) commented on me needing to take batter care of my hair and I would see even more result if I did. I was not going to argue with them. They most offered an objective opinion and I took it as that and never got offended. It is life no one is going to agree with you all the time. If you think they should? Opinions are like A-holes everyone has one. ((Kanye Shrug))

 

[Nonie]

So I have taken anatomy and physiology since I am at a chiropractic college (chiros really know their bones lol) so because their seems to be a lot of confusion of where exactly the hair length landmarks are. The most accurate way of depicting this IMO is to go by vertebrae levels (which I am sure everyone has someone they can ask to help define these points).

End of neck length: C7 (most prominent bump on your cervical spine); since anatomically the cervical (neck) vertebrae is from C1-C7.

Disagree. Too complicated for our purposes. I know I don't want to be feeling bones to determine length when I can just ID my neck, see where my neck ends and know the end.

This is what I call neck. It starts from the bottom of what I call head and stops at what I call shoulders. Really easy for me to ID w/o all o' dat.

Shoulder length:

1. Anatomically: At the beginning of T3 this is where the horizontal plane of the root of the scapular spine is located.
2. Physically: T1 represents the beginning of the thoracic area which would represents where you see the physical shoulders of a person.

**Honestly, I think either locations are fairly accurate, if you go to the doctor and complain of shoulder pain then they will understand that you mean from the T1 aspect or where the trapezius kind of begins.

**As has already been mentioned the clavicle sits superiority to the scapula and therefore is not represented as being on the same level as the scapula nor what is determined as being SL

Again, not sure what doctor's understanding of location of bones of the body have to do with the figuring out what a shoulder is and where it is. LOL Y'all like to complicate matters. Not everyone is fascinated with science to be busy studying location of bones. So what are fat people who cannot feel their bones to do?

Just skip the shoulder bidness altogether because the bones are hard to feel, or shall we just use our eyes and look at the shoulder say "Oh look, your hair can reach shoulders so you must be at shoulder length!

Arm pit length:Easy to define, no real cause for controversy

Just like the shoulder. No controversy for me and OP and a few others who agree with OP w/r/t shoulders. That top part of the body that goes from neck to arm is called shoulder. Easy to define...unless you're of course a mad scientist who cannot get your head out of science and views humans as bones and muscles and nerves and blood vessels so that even calling a neck a neck is hard coz you just see veins/arteries, bones, muscles with their names screaming in your head.

Below Shoulder Blade: Horizontal plane of the Inferior angle of the scapula in relation to the human spine is located at T8 (previously located at T7)
**No longer using Bra Strap Length since everyone's bra straps are variable and not consistent with daily use

In layman's terms, BSB is the area immediately below that bone that sticks out in the back about the level of your boobs but in the back when you place your hand behind your back like the black and white lady. That^^ description would give me a mental block if I wasn't into science and just wanted to ID on the body the next marker. Scientists need to learn to speak human. (This reminds me of why I think people are turned off Math or just decide in advance that they'll never get it. It's when Mathematicians explain things in highfalutin language when the audience isn't made of like-minded folk. Not saying there are no scientists reading this, but c'mon nah! How did we come to labeling vertebra to ID positions of the body that hair reaches? Someone would think we're discussing back pain and slipped discs.


[QUOTE]
(natural)Waist length : Variable, easy to distinguish no real cause for controversy[/QUOTE]

OK

MBL: At T12 represents the halfway point between the inferior angle of the scapula (T7/T8) ---> superior margin of the iliac crests

How about just MBL = middle of the back (when you consider the back as being from the base of the neck to a little above your butt crack/below the small of the back and then taking the point halfway between those two points). That scientific explanation seems to assume people know what the ilium is and so will be able to figure out where the crest's curve is so as to locate the top part of it. I mean is anyone who isn't interested in human anatomy really concerned about these details?

Hip length:L4/ L5 where your hands are placed sitting on top of superior margin of the iliac crests

You mean hipbone length, right? In other words, hipbone is that bone that you rest your hands on if you placed your hand a little below the waist or even on your waist--when you hold your hands akimbo. It's the only bone you feel on the side immediately below your waist. IMO hip length is different from hipbone length and it is when your hair is about halfway down your butt ie reaching the part of your body where your hips are. But again, that bone can be referred to in simple terms HBL=hair reaching your hipbone.

**** Oh and you can not use the Trapezius as it is such a LARGE spanding muscle extending from C7-T12

LOL I think @blueberryd knew that. She was trying to be as sarcastic as possible and I think she was trying to say we need to use the horizontal plane of the inferior fibers of the trapezius muscle where they emerge from spinous process of the T12 vertebra.

I think I need to lie down.

 

[Tamrin]

Disagree. Too complicated for our purposes. I know I don't want to be feeling bones to determine length when I can just ID my neck, see where my neck ends and know the end.

This is what I call neck. It starts from the bottom of what I call head and stops at what I call shoulders. Really easy for me to ID w/o all o' dat.



Again, not sure what doctor's understanding of location of bones of the body have to do with the figuring out what a shoulder is and where it is. LOL Y'all like to complicate matters. Not everyone is fascinated with science to be busy studying location of bones. So what are fat people who cannot feel their bones to do?

Just skip the shoulder bidness altogether because the bones are hard to feel, or shall we just use our eyes and look at the shoulder say "Oh look, your hair can reach shoulders so you must be at shoulder length!




Just like the shoulder. No controversy for me and OP and a few others who agree with OP w/r/t shoulders. That top part of the body that goes from neck to arm is called shoulder. Easy to define...unless you're of course a mad scientist who cannot get your head out of science and views humans as bones and muscles and nerves and blood vessels so that even calling a neck a neck is hard coz you just see veins/arteries, bones, muscles with their names screaming in your head.



In layman's terms, BSB is the area immediately below that bone that sticks out in the back about the level of your boobs but in the back when you place your hand behind your back like the black and white lady. That^^ description would give me a mental block if I wasn't into science and just wanted to ID on the body the next marker. Scientists need to learn to speak human. (This reminds me of why I think people are turned off Math or just decide in advance that they'll never get it. It's when Mathematicians explain things in highfalutin language when the audience isn't made of like-minded folk. Not saying there are no scientists reading this, but c'mon nah! How did we come to labeling vertebra to ID positions of the body that hair reaches? Someone would think we're discussing back pain and slipped discs.


(natural)Waist length : Variable, easy to distinguish no real cause for controversy



How about just MBL = middle of the back (when you consider the back as being from the base of the neck to a little above your butt crack/below the small of the back and then taking the point halfway between those two points). That scientific explanation seems to assume people know what the ilium is and so will be able to figure out where the crest's curve is so as to locate the top part of it. I mean is anyone who isn't interested in human anatomy really concerned about these details?



You mean hipbone length, right? In other words, hipbone is that bone that you rest your hands on if you placed your hand a little below the waist or even on your waist--when you hold your hands akimbo. It's the only bone you feel on the side immediately below your waist. IMO hip length is different from hipbone length and it is when your hair is about halfway down your butt ie reaching the part of your body where your hips are. But again, that bone can be referred to in simple terms HBL=hair reaching your hipbone.



LOL I think @blueberryd knew that. She was trying to be as sarcastic as possible and I think she was trying to say we need to use the horizontal plane of the inferior fibers of the trapezius muscle where they emerge from spinous process of the T12 vertebra.

I think I need to lie down.

@ Nonie girl yes go lay down. You done pulled out the whole medical dictionary. You got me looking back at my bio degree in this mug. Lumbar and cervical spine? Girl stop Just please do not use ICD9 and CPT coding along with it.

But before you go lay down, can you explain this to me what length this is? I was thinking tailbone.

BTW I'm stealing the lil neck dude. that is my new AV.