The Queen's Code By Alison Armstrong Bookclub

@Britt
I appreciate your honesty. My first instinct was the same as yours: why should I have to be the bigger person? Where's their responsibility? Then I asked myself would I rather be right (and somewhat self-righteous) or be happy? Once I admitted that what I'd been doing wasn't working, it was much easier to give it a try, even if I was skeptical about Alison's claims.

At first, it was tough. I come from a family with a well-documented history of frog farming so it was ingrained in me that men have to be manipulated, emotionally blackmailed, threatened, controlled, or otherwise punished in order to get what you want. And even though they work hard, so what? That just barely makes up for them being such a pain. Relationships are a zero-sum game and you don't want to be the one to lose, even if you have to fight dirty.

When I started reading TQC, I wanted to call Alison and tell her about herself and her crackpot theories, but I kept reading and I'm eternally grateful that I did. I was shocked at how much I didn't know (and never bothered to even question) about men. Then I decided to secretly roadtest the information and was absolutely stunned by how responsive men were to my new mindset and behavior. For the first time, I could see how the pieces fit and how I was bringing out the worst in some men. Once you recognize how much power you have by just being receptive, you'll realize that carrying around the sword is more trouble than it's worth. This is not to say you won't be tempted to pick it up now and again, but eventually you'll be able to catch yourself before you do any harm. The frog-whisperer that lives in our heads will always want to find offense in whatever men do and try to convince you that you need the sword, but she'll eventually quiet down. And even if you do slip up and use it, you'll know how to get back on track.

I can't emphasize enough how much of a radical change this information has made in my life. I'm so much happier and my relationships are much more harmonious. You really don't know how heavy that sword is and how much it's costing you until you put it down and see what you've been missing.

Anyway, it's better to know you're not ready than to pretend you are and be passive-aggressive about it or worse, become a better swordswoman (e.g., Melissa). Whenever you're ready, you have support here.
 
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So ladies, this is my suggestion. Read TQC and KTTK and try to lay down the sword for the next 30 days or wait and lay it down in the new year and commit to laying it down the entire month of January. But I hope you choose to take the vow to lay it down forever. Please do not pay too much attention to her other stuff before reading TQC and KTTK because it will not make sense to you. I probably won't post much more for awhile because the holidays got a sister busy. And I need to focus on myself and maintaining my pretty and my femininity. Good luck to everyone.
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@almond eyes For dating purposes, I'd suggest that you listen to her Audiobook/Workshop: In Sync With the Opposite Sex. It contains somewhat painfully honest live input from both men and women. Though I have not directly mentioned this workshop here it has also helped me TREMENDOUSLY in preparing to resume dating and also understand how men think.

I can't really answer your question directly, but in her workshop she talks about the "sorting process" and how women are constantly trying to connect; but men do this connecting thing differently.
IMHO
  1. If the guy you're talking to [trying to establish a connection with] is easily distracted by the next-lady-that-walks-by, then he just sorted himself out of the pool.
  2. She talks about how we should set our interactions up so that we are the one being REACTED TO, and stop strategizing and contorting ourselves into what WE THINK THEY WANT
  3. Remember YOU are THE PRIZE, carry yourself this way, and react this way
  4. She alleges that we are more attractive when we are OUR AUTHENTIC SELVES. This also aids in the sorting process.
Again the Audiobook WORKSHOP is called: IN SYNC WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX. I was listening to it again this morning whilst running my errands.

Quick fix: Men like to be listened to; keep him talking about himself (but only if you're really interested in him)

Thanks again @Ivonnovi I am almost finished with it and it is excellent so far!!!!!!!!!
Damn I wish I had had this in my life at least a decade ago.

Best,
Almond Eyes
 
I do think however it is possible to have a man that you thought was a 9 or 10 and years later as you have matured and you have gotten it together in your head as a woman to stop having that oh my gosh feeling (lose all reason) and now look at him differently without having to please him. And I think it is possible for him years later to think yeah the woman is still hot but I'm not overly desperate and not myself because there has been some distance and maturity.

Case in point, my mother married my dad and she felt he was a ten plus ten. She was definitely losing all reason even not being completely honest about her age. And of course they had serious problems later on besides culturally. Years later after separation they are back together and Mum no longer has that (oh my gosh feeling) and so they have settled into something nice.

I don't feel women should settle for a man they have no chemistry with or that repulse them because that too is a recipe for disaster likewise if the chemistry is just too sexual a woman will lose all reason which is not a good basis to begin a relationship with. Getting a man just in the middle is hard, I say get the man you want but calm down. Balance is what it is all about.

Best,
Almond Eyes
 
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I have been diligently working on me since September. Oh-My-FrogFarm'n-God!!!!!!!

Have I had some :eek:eye-opening experiences.


My perspective on all of the materials we have discussed by AA in this thread is that the ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO: provide women the tools to NOT REACT to situations FROM a position of :mad:ANGER OR HURT, & to be able to look at (men's) "misbehavior's" and realize that there may be an underlying cause or influence.

I believe the same [something is influencing the misbehavior's] logic is true of US frog-farming women; so, I am using the "Toxic Parents" book to look at :detective: what influences my behaviors.

I have downloaded and been listening to "Toxic Parents" by Dr. Susan Forwards, thanks to a book recommendation made by @shortycocoa over in the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers thread, .


ETA: this quote from a reviewer of the book via GoodReads: " Reading this book helps me to untie some of the knots I had in my heart". I hate to repeat myself but: “OM-FrogFarm'n-G!!!!!!!”:eek: If any of you are tenured frog-farmers and/or have strained familial ties to the industry of frogging or frog farming; I'd recommend your listen to or read this book too.


You don’t have to consider your parents toxic to appreciate the “clarification of parenting tactics” provided in the book. Realize it or not the tactics influence and affect your everyday life; I was amazed that even at my f’n-age I am still encumbered by the tactics....and I didn't even know it.


In the book she states that “most adult children of Toxic Parents grew up with a tremendous confusion about what Love means and how it is supposed to feel….They came to understand love as something chaotic, dramatic, confusing and often painful; something that they had to give up their dreams and desires for…”


Sounds to me like a recipe for the makings of a "frog farmer"



I feel like between these two Authors, they have "The Cure for a Problem Many Of Us Didn't Even Know We Had". (Quote borrowed with creative license from Dr. Joann Cornwell creator of Sisterlocks")


Note: I've only listened to the audiobook; I have NOT done the recommended work in the book (yet). If your heart is open to change and healing you'll be receptive to the content. If your heart is not, then just listen anyway, and perhaps you'll pick up tools you can use to assist someone else.

Meaning: I recommended this to a very successful male friend of mine who has some deep :evil:struggles that prevents him from being truly happy.
 
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Although the logic behind it is sound, I have some real issues with the idea that we should date men that rank no more than a 6-7 on looks scale.
I do think however it is possible to have a man that you thought was a 9 or 10 and years later as you have matured and you have gotten it together in your head as a woman to stop having that oh my gosh feeling (lose all reason) and now look at him differently without having to please him. And I think it is possible for him years later to think yeah the woman is still hot but I'm not overly desperate and not myself because there has been some distance and maturity.

Case in point, my mother married my dad and she felt he was a ten plus ten. She was definitely losing all reason even not being completely honest about her age. And of course they had serious problems later on besides culturally. Years later after separation they are back together and Mum no longer has that (oh my gosh feeling) and so they have settled into something nice.

I don't feel women should settle for a man they have no chemistry with or that repulse them because that too is a recipe for disaster likewise if the chemistry is just too sexual a woman will lose all reason which is not a good basis to begin a relationship with. Getting a man just in the middle is hard, I say get the man you want but calm down. Balance is what it is all about.

Best,
Almond Eyes
Ok I finished In sync with the opposite sex. AA never said to be with someone you're not attracted to, who repulses you, or who is a 5 on the attractiveness scale. She said to run away from the people you are SUPER attracted to as 9 or 10 on the how attracted I am to them scale. Go for a level 8 attraction instead. Attractiveness vs being attracted to someone is not the same thing. I know MY best relationship ever is the one that started out as friendship at first. I thought he was attractive but I wasn't DYING to have him. That allowed me to be myself around him because I had NO expectations. Now all of my exes who I was at a level 9-10 attraction level didn't last. I really did turn myself into a pretzel trying to be who I thought they wanted. That made me inauthentic, not self confident and that's the kiss of death to their attraction usually.
 
Listening to this audio makes me wonder if there is any thought in men's behavior towards women. it just seems like some of their behavior is so flippant or careless. I can see that there were times that I assumed something a guy said or did meant he cared but for me, but it might have been a "trying me on" situation. I almost feel like I have to self protect more with men and try really hard to not assign meaning to their actions...like a guy suddenly touching me or hugging me or kissing me on the cheek (very respectfully). My mind wants to race ahead or assign a meaning to those gestures but I know it could very well mean nothing. We just have to let them set the pace of the friendship or relationship. That is SO hard!!!
 
I have been diligently working on me since September. Oh-My-FrogFarm'n-G-d!!!!!!! have I had some :eek:eye-opening experiences.


My perspective on all of the materials we have discussed by AA in this thread is that the ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO: enable women to NOT REACT to situations FROM a position of :mad:ANGER OR HURT , and for US to be able to look at (men's) "misbehavior's" and realize that there may be an underlying cause or influence.

The same [something is influencing the misbehavior's logic) is true of US frog-farming women; so, I am using the "Toxic Parents" book to look at:detective: what influences my behaviors.

I have downloaded and been listening to "Toxic Parents" by Dr. Susan Forwards, thanks to a book recommendation made by @shortycocoa over the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers thread, .

I hate to repeat myself but: “OM-FrogFarm'n-G!!!!!!!”:eek:

If any of you are tenured frog-farmers, with strained familial ties to the industry; I'd recommend your listen to or read this book too.
You don’t have to consider your parents toxic to appreciate the “clarification of parenting tactics” provided in the book. Like it or not the tactics influence and affect your everyday life; I was amazed at how at even my f’n-age I am still encumbered by the tactics....and I didn't even know it.
In the book she states that “most adult children of Toxic Parents grew up with a tremendous confusion about what Love means and how it is supposed to feel….They came to understand love as something chaotic, dramatic, confusing and often painful; something that they had to give up their dreams and desires for…”
Sounds to me like a recipe for the makings of a "frog farmer"​


I feel like between the two :notworthy:Authors, they have "The Cure for a Problem Many Of Us Didn't Even Know We Had".:sick: (Quote borrowed with creative license from Dr. Joann Cornwell creator of Sisterlocks")


Note: I've only listened to the audiobook; I have NOT done the recommended work in the book (yet). If your heart is open to change and healing you'll be receptive to the content. If your heart is not, then just listen anyway, and perhaps you'll pick up tools you can use to assist someone else.
Meaning: I recommended this to a very successful male friend of mine who has some deep :pyro:struggles that prevents him from being truly happy.​
Both of my parents are narcissists and can be toxic even now. To say that gave me issues is an understatement. Therapy saved my sanity and my life. For the first time in my life I realized I wasn't crazy. That I was fine just the way God made me. And that just because my parents will never love me how I deserve doesn't mean I'm not worthy of love. I haven't read the book you mentioned but I've read others. My favorites are: "Children of the self absorbed" and "Will I ever be good enough: daughters of narcissistic mothers". I had lots of aha moments reading these. :yep:
 
Listening to this audio makes me wonder if there is any thought in men's behavior towards women. it just seems like some of their behavior is so flippant or careless. I can see that there were times that I assumed something a guy said or did meant he cared but for me, but it might have been a "trying me on" situation. I almost feel like I have to self protect more with men and try really hard to not assign meaning to their actions...like a guy suddenly touching me or hugging me or kissing me on the cheek (very respectfully). My mind wants to race ahead or assign a meaning to those gestures but I know it could very well mean nothing. We just have to let them set the pace of the friendship or relationship. That is SO hard!!!
It makes more sense if you read The Queen's code first. At least it did for me.
 
The best I can offer about the specific situation you offered is that the men you are speaking of are not [at that moment] operating in the King or latent Prince stages of development. Perhaps they are operating in one of the lower stages of development Pages being the lowest.
  • I am not trying to bring Politics into the discussion but let's look at Trump. Financially he is a King, push any of his many buttons and he responds in Kanglike:bud: ....oops I mean Paigelike fashion by hurling nasty insults.
  • When a specific insult about Carly Forinas. Forinas' responded in a very graceful QTCesque fashion. Trump back pedaled. View the video at :35 - 1:00 for the responses; mute and view longer for un-Kinglike posturing.


The goal of QTC is to tool women with the ability to respond/interact calmly despite the mans level of development.


Listening to this audio makes me wonder if there is any thought in men's behavior towards women. it just seems like some of their behavior is so flippant or careless. I can see that there were times that I assumed something a guy said or did meant he cared but for me, but it might have been a "trying me on" situation. I almost feel like I have to self protect more with men and try really hard to not assign meaning to their actions...like a guy suddenly touching me or hugging me or kissing me on the cheek (very respectfully). My mind wants to race ahead or assign a meaning to those gestures but I know it could very well mean nothing. We just have to let them set the pace of the friendship or relationship. That is SO hard!!!
 
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The best I can offer about the specific situation you offered is that the men you are speaking of are not [at that moment] operating in the King or latent Prince stages of development. Perhaps they are operating in one of the lower stages of development Paiges being the lowest.
  • I am not trying to bring Politics into the discussion but let's look at Trump. Financially he is a King, push any of his many buttons and he responds in Kanglike:bud: ....oops I mean Paigelike fashion by hurling nasty insults.
  • When a specific insult about Carly Forinas. Forinas' responded in a very graceful QTCesque fashion. Trump back pedaled. View the video at :35 - 1:00 for the responses; mute and view longer for un-Kinglike posturing.


The goal of QTC is to tool women with the ability to respond/interact calmly despite the mans level of development.


I think the reality is there aren't a lot of kings...but a queen can inspire a prince to become a king. We can only control our behavior and our reaction to others. A queen doesn't stop being a queen because she doesn't see any kings. I just think wearing the crown can be heavy when there don't seem to be many potential kings. But I have to remind myself that TQC is about my behavior and my reaction, not what other people are doing.
 
EXACTLY!!!!!
I think the reality is there aren't a lot of kings...but a queen can inspire a prince to become a king. We can only control our behavior and our reaction to others. A queen doesn't stop being a queen because she doesn't see any kings. I just think wearing the crown can be heavy when there don't seem to be many potential kings. But I have to remind myself that TQC is about my behavior and my reaction, not what other people are doing.

You got it, and especially the "not what other people are doing" part, The rational applies to your interactions with just about anyone. As a person with close narcissistic family members I have used the QTC during my unavoidable interactions with them, ....and to think another Holiday is rapidly approaching.
 
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The best I can offer about the specific situation you offered is that the men you are speaking of are not [at that moment] operating in the King or latent Prince stages of development. Perhaps they are operating in one of the lower stages of development Paiges being the lowest.
  • I am not trying to bring Politics into the discussion but let's look at Trump. Financially he is a King, push any of his many buttons and he responds in Kanglike:bud: ....oops I mean Paigelike fashion by hurling nasty insults.
  • When a specific insult about Carly Forinas. Forinas' responded in a very graceful QTCesque fashion. Trump back pedaled. View the video at :35 - 1:00 for the responses; mute and view longer for un-Kinglike posturing.


The goal of QTC is to tool women with the ability to respond/interact calmly despite the mans level of development.

I think the reality is there aren't a lot of kings...but a queen can inspire a prince to become a king. We can only control our behavior and our reaction to others. A queen doesn't stop being a queen because she doesn't see any kings. I just think wearing the crown can be heavy when there don't seem to be many potential kings. But I have to remind myself that TQC is about my behavior and my reaction, not what other people are doing.
EXACTLY!!!!!


You got it, and especially the "not what other people are doing" part, The rational applies to your interactions with just about anyone. As a person with close narcissistic family members I have used the QTC during my unavoidable interactions with them, ....an to think another Holiday is rapidly approaching.

I completely disagree and I think you've missed the point of the information in the book.

I hope to post an explanation when my schedule frees up.
 
"The goal of QTC is to tool women with the ability to respond/interact calmly despite the mans level of development."

"I think the reality is there aren't a lot of kings."

"I just think wearing the crown can be heavy when there don't seem to be many potential kings."

I don't have a lot of time either and I'm looking forward to seeing what @Kimbosheart has to say. But listen, the above comments are pessimistic and condescending toward men. AA adores men and believes most men are kind, just as "developed" as we are, and that there are plenty good men and no shortage of them. And also, while being a queen may not be easy, it is in no way a burden. Okay that's it ladies. If you don't believe that most men are wonderful, AA's advice will not work for you and you will not receive the unbelievable benefits that come from the Queen's Code.
 
Also, I may be wrong, but I thought the idea of going with a guy that you aren't super attracted to was to practice the skills and techniques. I get the sense that she adores her husband and is very attracted to him and was from the beginning. So I'm thinking that was a suggestion to help women see how powerful the Queen's Code is, then no matter how attracted you are to a guy, you will be ready, because you have strong boundaries, are grounded in your femininity, etc. But like I said, maybe I missed something? Hopefully someone will chime in. All is good in my camp and I am and always have been VERY attracted to my dh.
 
"The goal of QTC is to tool women with the ability to respond/interact calmly despite the mans level of development."

"I think the reality is there aren't a lot of kings."

"I just think wearing the crown can be heavy when there don't seem to be many potential kings."

I don't have a lot of time either and I'm looking forward to seeing what @Kimbosheart has to say. But listen, the above comments are pessimistic and condescending toward men. AA adores men and believes most men are kind, just as "developed" as we are, and that there are plenty good men and no shortage of them. And also, while being a queen may not be easy, it is in no way a burden. Okay that's it ladies. If you don't believe that most men are wonderful, AA's advice will not work for you and you will not receive the unbelievable benefits that come from the Queen's Code.

God bless you @hopeful this is everything I wanted to say. I have house guests right now so I'm catching a few minutes when I can. Please read this in the kindest voice you can imagine and coming from a sisterfriend who wants us all to succeed in love and life. I will try to add more and edit for tone but for now I'll only add the following:

Wearing my crown may have taken some getting used to, but it is my pleasure to do so.

Allison states what the goal of the queen's code is, it's actually not a "goal"- it is a way to communicate with men, and a code of honor for women. In fact, she barely mentions the stages of development in that text. It is also the foundation for the rest of her courses and literature.

The comment's highlighted above came across as emasculating in my opinion. And just like the law of attraction, if that is what you believe to be your reality, then that is what you will attract. One of the first questions in TQC is "what if men are responding to me?"

Also, in KTTK she does not make any value judgements on the different stages of development. A page is a good as a knight. A knight is as good as a prince and prince is as good as a king. There are many good men around me in all the various stages of development. I find them all equally delightful now that I know a little more about their motivations.

@belle said that a queen can inspire a prince to become a king. What I took from the text is that a women may be a factor in a man's growth but men from birth are trying to define who they are in their terms. They move through the stages of development at their own pace.

I'll try to add more depth later.
 
My response focused on @Belle Du Jour's perception that some of men's behaviors seemed "flippant and careless".

Pessimistic, maybe so but for real growth from the QTC information I think it is more important that one's heart is open to both receive and process the messages.

My answers were an attempt to meet @Belle Du Jour were she is with her burgeoning understanding and receptiveness [her heart is open] to the QTC or KTTK; and to validate (most of) her understanding so far. Hence my "Exactly" response to the bolded information in statements by her in my response.

Like the rest of us as she implements the practices in her interactions she will develop a better understanding (and IMHO be in a position to influence more king like behavior from the men around her).


Regarding development. IIRC, AA somehow communicates that a Queen has learned what to expect during the different stages of development (and can adjust her expectations accordingly). She also acknowledges that even we non-sword bearing Queens will slip on occasion (but we have to make it right once we realize it).

I used specifically used Trump's [real life] behavior as an example un-Kinglike behavior, by a King.

By no means did I intend for the comments to be emasculating; but acknowledgement of a young queen's burgeoning understanding.


.
"The goal of QTC is to tool women with the ability to respond/interact calmly despite the mans level of development."


"I think the reality is there aren't a lot of kings."


"I just think wearing the crown can be heavy when there don't seem to be many potential kings."


I don't have a lot of time either and I'm looking forward to seeing what @Kimbosheart has to say. But listen, the above comments are pessimistic and condescending toward men. AA adores men and believes most men are kind, just as "developed" as we are, and that there are plenty good men and no shortage of them. And also, while being a queen may not be easy, it is in no way a burden. Okay that's it ladies. If you don't believe that most men are wonderful, AA's advice will not work for you and you will not receive the unbelievable benefits that come from the Queen's Code.
 
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Also, I may be wrong, but I thought the idea of going with a guy that you aren't super attracted to was to practice the skills and techniques. I get the sense that she adores her husband and is very attracted to him and was from the beginning. So I'm thinking that was a suggestion to help women see how powerful the Queen's Code is, then no matter how attracted you are to a guy, you will be ready, because you have strong boundaries, are grounded in your femininity, etc. But like I said, maybe I missed something? Hopefully someone will chime in. All is good in my camp and I am and always have been VERY attracted to my dh.

IIRC the reason she says to not date men you're super attracted to is that most women will try to impress the guy that gives them butterflies so they start being less authentic and more of what they "think" he wants. Authenticity is one of the core qualities that makes a women attractive so you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by pretending to be other than what you are. Also, some women will overlook certain "negative" qualities in someone they're very attracted to, so they'll settle for less than what they want and deserve just to be with him. She said that most women's sense of self is fluid and because we're looking for safety/protection, our brains want us to conform to what we think will get us a partner. That, coupled with strong attraction, makes women go into overdrive and try to "win" the guy. But chasing and trying to manipulate situations to get hot guy to "choose" them is masculine (hunter) mode - not Queen behavior.

I agree that the course will give you strong boundaries, but ironically you won't really need them as much with most men because you won't be relating to them as adversaries. I know men aren't as defensive with me because I'm not fighting with them.

Alison said she wasn't hot for Greg (her DH) when they met, but she liked him a lot and found him interesting and they took it from there; now they're madly in love. She was hot for her first husband and it didn't work out because she was trying to be what he wanted and do what he wanted, but they were mismatched in fundamental areas.
 
Roster update (and I say that tongue-in-cheek), I'm making this post to share another sorting experience.

I need a man (King) that communicates better than I do. In my mind's eye I see me with an older man; and hoped that this one (10+ years my senior) would have potential to fit the bill.
This morning I was compelled put my crown on send the following text which I composed to be direct, clear, and read like a response to a job interview:

"Good morning (Mr. King), thank you for the pictures. I appreciated the opportunity to speak with you and for your interest; however, at this time I find that we are not a match. I wish you luck in your future dating experience"

Why?: Because I do not communicate via Cartoons and texts. He sent me his phone# earlier and it was a few days before I called. We did not talk very long but we had a pleasant conversation though he seemed tired, he works nights. Two hours later he sent me a thank you text that included a link to a cartoon card, and for the next 3 days he has sent me similar Good Morning texts that usually arrive before 8AM. He's not telephoned yet, it seems childish to me.​

I share this because KTTK & QTC suggests that we should not just do the silent treatment.
[I really just wanted to block him and KIM]​
In Sync with the Opposite Sex talks about the sorting process, red flags, and gut feelings (intuition).
In this case I'm sorting through potentials, and the character above sorted himself out due to differences in communications styles...and my intuition tells me that he'd rather text than talk which​
is fine, but not for me.
 
Roster update (and I say that tongue-in-cheek), I'm making this post to share another sorting experience.

I need a man (King) that communicates better than I do. In my mind's eye I see me with an older man; and hoped that this one (10+ years my senior) would have potential to fit the bill.
This morning I was compelled put my crown on send the following text which I composed to be direct, clear, and read like a response to a job interview:

"Good morning (Mr. King), thank you for the pictures. I appreciated the opportunity to speak with you and for your interest; however, at this time I find that we are not a match. I wish you luck in your future dating experience"

Why?: Because I do not communicate via Cartoons and texts. He sent me his phone# earlier and it was a few days before I called. We did not talk very long but we had a pleasant conversation though he seemed tired, he works nights. Two hours later he sent me a thank you text that included a link to a cartoon card, and for the next 3 days he has sent me similar Good Morning texts that usually arrive before 8AM. He's not telephoned yet, it seems childish to me.​

I share this because KTTK & QTC suggests that we should not just do the silent treatment.
[I really just wanted to block him and KIM]​
In Sync with the Opposite Sex talks about the sorting process, red flags, and gut feelings (intuition).
In this case I'm sorting through potentials, and the character above sorted himself out due to differences in communications styles...and my intuition tells me that he'd rather text than talk which​
is fine, but not for me.
On to the next one!
 
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