"Taking Back the N-word" - Thoughts?

[andromeda]

I think some people are more upset at the negative connotation the word "Nappy" has...and not necessariliy the "innocent" dictionary definition that the word supposedly possesses.

The connotative and usage aspects of the word have been addressed repeatedly in this thread. As I've stated before, unlike your examples of the other n-word and, to a lesser extent, gay, the negative connotation and usage of "nappy" never eliminated its neutral meaning and usage.

if someone doesn't choose to use such a word seeing as how it has had a negative connotation through history which has been used to oppress and degrade people, then I don't think that the person who refuses to use such a word should be villainized either. If you want to use the word...fine. But if others choose NOT to use the word, then can you really blame them??

You've gotten to the heart of matter. And yet you've sort of presented a strawman or ignored the fact that people are also villanaizing those who use the word.

Most [if not all] of the people who use the word have already stated that they understand why some take issue with the word and that they would not force usage on anyone else. There have been plenty of posters who said they don't like the word, wouldn't want it used to describe their hair, etc. and I completely understand and respect their opinions and preferences (and not in the cordial, politically correct way - I mean I genuinely "get" where they're coming from).

The problem came in yesterday because those who use the word felt like they were being villainized for their decision, as I stated earlier:

I resent that I would be accused of perpetuating inferiority

For those who don't like the word, that's fine but don't insist that people who use it have a vital interest in perpetuating their own inferiority. Likewise, for those who do use it, don't insist that the people who do use it have an underlying issue of accepting a particular hair texture. I'm okay with those dimensions being presented and discussed because they do posses a kernel of truth, but the insistence, generalization and refusal to acknowledge where the other side is coming from is uncalled for. Additionally, don't mis-characterize explanations or defenses as "villainizing" or trying to bend others to one's will.

Let's continue on respectfully. Or agree to disagree and leave it there.

 

[Nonie]

I'm sure there are some that would rather "tightly curled/coiled" hair didn't exist...fortunately I'm not one of them I love natural hair to the extent that I can't wait to have a head full of my own tightly coiled hair. I just feel that the word itself has been used in the past to insult an entire race so I would rather the N word not be used to define any part of my being.

I understand the context of why some are not bothered by the word since the "actual" meaning in the dictionary does in fact represent the texture of 4B hair. However, there are many words in the dictionary that are "actual " words, but are continuously used negatively. I refuse to answer to being called a female dog, (b.i.t.c.h.) a tool used for farming crops (h.o.e.) or having nappy hair (baby diaper, carpet, velvet cloth, small dish...take your pick). Black people did not come up with that word for our hair...our slave masters did, just like the other N word. It is a fact that the N word has been linked to humiliation, hate, and oppresion, so IMO the only way to take away it's power is to not use it at all.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect your decision to embrace the word as I do all others who use it in a non insulting way. but that doesn't mean that I won't give someone the side eye if they refer to my hair as being so.

Great discussion BTW!

Thank you for the bold. And if I did and you told me you didn't like it, trust me, I wouldn't call your hair nappy again--especially if we talk a lot enough for me not to forget that you don't like it. I have a friend like this and I would NEVER dream of calling her hair nappy. She doesn't like it, and doesn't mind if I call mine such, just doesn't want it applied to her hair, and I never do.

About the words you used as examples:

B***h is a female dog, an animal, so if you're calling a human that, you're insulting them, because I see no resemblance to a dog. In fact, the context in which the word is used has nothing whatsoever to do with the animal it represents. So this is clearly an insult. Unless one is talking about the real animal, any other use of it isn't meant in a good way. (Except in the book Why Men Love *****es where the author decided to give it a different definition as the opposite of doormat.)

When people use the word dog to refer to a man, sometimes they mean it as an insult, sometimes they want to imply that he is promiscuous in which sense it is just a picturesque way of speaking, albeit not so kind (And I get that meaning too coz I remember seeing tons of stray dogs in my neighborhood having traveled miles to attend a dog orgy. Was the weirdest thing to see as a kid). Yes, I do realize that it isn't a nice word to be given to anyone because being a dog isn't something one should be proud of. It is kinda in the same category as ho.

"Ho" I believe didn't come from the garden tool but rather from the real English word for what it represents "whore". The reference to a garden tool is just a joke that I first heard in a movie coz ho isn't even pronounced like the word it's supposed to represent so to one who doesn't know it, it sounds like you're talking about a "***", a garden tool.

When you say,

nappy hair (baby diaper, carpet, velvet cloth, small dish...take your pick)

I see you sorta get a bit sidetracked. None of the words in the parentheses mean "nappy hair"... I think what you meant to write is just nappy in which case that would be an accurate representation or description that could be use for those words (Er...small dish? )

nappy = UK word for diaper
nappy = a word that can describe raised fibers on a carpet
nappy = a word that describes the surface of velvet cloth that feels smooth when felt in one way and rough when felt in the other way
nappy

 

[Nonie]

oh and newsflash, not everyone has 4b hair and those who usually claim to have it, usually have a lot or "curls/coils" in their head and it resembles and old school telephone cord, more so than those pics of furballs or whatever they were above.

Kurlee, you have expressed your refusal to believe that 4B hair has coils that look like a telephone cord so I don't think there's any way to change your mind about that. What I do find funny is you don't have 4B hair. You might've seen 4B hair looking like beads or looking like fuzz but you refuse to accept that it can also look like a phone cord. If I blew out my hair, it'd look like the second fuzzy ball I posted but I bet you'd still say it didn't. If I didn't comb my hair or did and applied aloe to my afro like Lenny Kravitz did and shook it and let it just do its thang, I might end up with hair that looks like the first fuzzy balls I posted but again I bet you would not see it. And when I show you that the same hair can turn into coils when I wash it and let it airdry, you'd probably see something else there again.

I wish you could show me these people who do not have coils on their hair and let me have access to their hair for just a few hours. BTW if a white person with straight hair wanted to claim she was 4B, it'd not bother me or surprise me. I love being 4B so I'd understand her wanting to get down with the team.

 

[Sianna]

Since going natural I've seen and heard this word more and more, and even though it is often used as positive or descriptive of certain hair types, I frequently have to repress a cringe when I see/hear it.

For me, the word has never implied anything positive. Even at times when I've used it as a descriptive term for my own hair, it has always meant that my hair is an undesirable state. ie; uncombed, tangled, matted, ect.

When nicely defined, my hair is coily. When undefined, it is frizzy, fluffy, cottony and soft. I do not consider my hair nappy, nor would I use that particular word to describe anyone else's hair, natural or not. I simply am not able to embrace it as something positive because every time I've ever heard it growing up, it was meant to imply something negative or undesirable.

On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with anyone who refer to their own hair this way. For those who accept and embrace it, I tip my hat to you. For me, it strikes a nerve.

Just a side note: I don't think I've EVER heard my mother use the word "nappy." Not one time do I ever remember hearing her say that. :scratchch

 

[Nonie]

For example, the word "Gay" used to mean someone who was very happy or joyful. Of course, now in the 21st century, almost NOBODY thinks of the word "happy" when they hear the word "Gay"...or "is he gay?" So sometimes it's also good to take into account the way the meaning of words have been changed throughout the years in history.

I think people are confusing matters. The word "gay" in today's world means "homosexual". There was a time when being homosexual was taboo, and it still is in some people's mind. So if someone called me "gay" I'd not be offended as much as I'd be confused/amused. I am not homosexual and I don't have issues with homosexual people. Now I can see someone who is homophobic taking offense to that but again that is because to them, being gay is a negative thing. Someone calling me gay would have the same effect on me as someone calling Jamaican or Taita (a different tribe from my own) or skinny or tall...all adjectives that do not describe me. Yet any of these words can be twisted to become insults, but they themselves are neutral descriptions. Likewise is the term "gay". Majority of people who hate the word are the people who have issues with the whole idea of homosexuality. (Nappyrina, you keep interrupting my thoughts with "what it represents!" ) And when kids call each other gay, it is also because they have picked up the word and just know it's an insult without knowing why (my neighbor's kid told me "you're gay means you're not cool"), or they do know what it means and have picked up the vibes that being homosexual is not something one should be proud of.

Even the OTHER "N-word" wasn't ordinarily a term used soley for blacks. And neither was the word "Ghetto". But over the years the N-word turned into a derrogatory term used SOELY to describe and denigrate black people. Some blacks could say that they are "innocently" using the "N-word" as a term of endearment, but again...if someone doesn't choose to use such a word seeing as how it has had a negative connotation through history which has been used to oppress and degrade people, then I don't think that the person who refuses to use such a word should be villainized either. If you want to use the word...fine. But if others choose NOT to use the word, then can you really blame them??

Just some other things to think about...courtesy of BillCasselman.com:



IMO it doesn't get any clearer than that. But....to each his or her own....

Correction: the N-word used to refer to blacks entered the English language as a derivative of the Spanish word "Negro" which was a word for "a member of the black-skinned race of Africa" and from its first us in English it was filled with contempt and hatred for the black race. Its origin was solely for use on black people and in as negative a way as it could be used. And that is why that N-word is not and will never be an OK word. Unlike "nappy" which is a word like "tall", "strong", "fat"....ie a simple adjective that could be used in a good way, a bad way, or just a neutral way, the N-word has no good or neutral thing about it. It's just downright bad.

Now let's look at Ghetto. The origin of this word is believed to be Venetian getto which was the word for foundry where slag was kept. That the word came to mean an area of the city where Jews are confined by law to live might have something to do with the fact that there was a foundry near the area in Venice where Jews were restricted to live. Coincidentally, in Yiddish, get means "deed of separation". That the word ghetto came about as a word to name a place where people are forced to live against their will before they were transported to concentration camps, makes it not really something I would say was ever an OK word. I'm not sure how that word came to be used to describe where some people live today, unless due to economic or social pressures, they were restricted to those areas as to make them a lot like ghettos. So when not talking about slag, when talking about a place people live, calling it a ghetto wasn't really being neutral. I don't think it ever was. Even for those who didn't live there, I don't think they ever thought, "Ooh, this weekend I'll take a ride over to the ghetto for a picnic."

And to answer your question, "If others choose not to use the word, then can you really blame them?" The answer has been given a few times already but I'll echo it again. NO, NO ONE BLAMES ANYONE for how they feel about the word. You are entitled to feeling about it how you do, and I am entitled to still finding the word as neutral and innocent as a new born baby who has yet to learn some mischief or grow into a sweet little angel.

 

[Kurlee]

That was me. I get where you are coming from and I'm not saying to gloss over it, just look at it for what it is. I don't have an issue with the word curly, some people do have curly hairl. I have some curly hair but nappy describes my hair best.

Now why the treasure trolls? I think your perception of nappy is really way off. Nappy isn't ugly, uncombed hair looking like you stuck your finger in an electric socket. It's just the texture. You can be styled to the nines and still be nappy.

treasure troll was what i thought of when i saw those pics posted earlier. I still think nappy is the wrong word to use to describes the array of textures that black people have. I don't think 4b hair is the only "nappy" hair and I do think it is beautiful, just like type 3 and 2 and 4a. I just feel the name is derogatory and unnecessary and that goes for any texture.

 

[Kurlee]

Kurlee, you have expressed your refusal to believe that 4B hair has coils that look like a telephone cord so I don't think there's any way to change your mind about that. What I do find funny is you don't have 4B hair. You might've seen 4B hair looking like beads or looking like fuzz but you refuse to accept that it can also look like a phone cord. If I blew out my hair, it'd look like the second fuzzy ball I posted but I bet you'd still say it didn't. If I didn't comb my hair or did and applied aloe to my afro like Lenny Kravitz did and shook it and let it just do its thang, I might end up with hair that looks like the first fuzzy balls I posted but again I bet you would not see it. And when I show you that the same hair can turn into coils when I wash it and let it airdry, you'd probably see something else there again.

I wish you could show me these people who do not have coils on their hair and let me have access to their hair for just a few hours. BTW if a white person with straight hair wanted to claim she was 4B, it'd not bother me or surprise me. I love being 4B so I'd understand her wanting to get down with the team.

I think the whole hair typing thing is silly and annoying and divisive. I find it useful when kept simple, but when people overcomplicate it then, i'm just like . I dunno, but if your hair curls, whether it's big small or in between, then it curls. Silk, size, how compact, how dense, shine, all that doesn't matter. Either your hair is straight, wavy or curly, all the shenanigans are just extra and unnecessary. . Find people whose hair is similar to yours and get your product recommendations, all the rest is just extra.

 

[UrbainChic]

I think Kurlee is saying you cannot just remove the negative connotation from a word for all of society because you do not find it offensive in and of itself.

But I think Nonie is trying to say, Its okay If everyone is not afraid to use it, because unlike the other derogatory N-word, or other derogatory words, its original meaning is neutral, meaning there is possibility that over time it could change, as people's mindsets change.

In both situations i think the words Gay, and F@g are great examples, because both of those words do not have inherently bad connotations, but depending on who you are and how they are used, they can be offensive, one more offensive than the other. Perfect example on how you
a) should not ignore the fact that a word is loaded
and
b) that a word's meaning is changeable.


Did I paraphrase both of your points correctly ladies?


BTW I think this is such a great thread. I like to break up the how I like to flatiron or condition my hair thread with some stuff of substance. Its also super great because we all have so many different backgrounds, I love the differences of perspective

 

[Kurlee]

I think Kurlee is saying you cannot just remove the negative connotation from a word for all of society because you do not find it offensive in and of itself.

But I think Nonie is trying to say, Its okay If everyone is not afraid to use it, because unlike the other derogatory N-word, or other derogatory words, its original meaning is neutral, meaning there is possibility that over time it could change, as people's mindsets change.

In both situations i think the words Gay, and F@g are great examples, because both of those words do not have inherently bad connotations, but depending on who you are and how they are used, they can be offensive, one more offensive than the other. Perfect example on how you
a) should not ignore the fact that a word is loaded
and
b) that a word's meaning is changeable.


Did I paraphrase both of your points correctly ladies?


BTW I think this is such a great thread. I like to break up the how I like to flatiron or condition my hair thread with some stuff of substance. Its also super great because we all have so many different backgrounds, I love the differences of perspective

great assessment

 

[Sianna]

I also wanted to add, that I refuse to use the word nappy anymore at all, mainly for the benefit of my children. Especially my daughter.

She is too young now, but soon she will be old enough to go to school and if she were ever to hear some little kid, or even a parent using the word "nappy" I highly doubt it would suggest something nice about anyone's hair. If she were to then come home and hear me calling her, or even my own hair nappy, I feel that, in her mind she would probably think something along the lines of "Oh no, so it must be true then!"

I feel that she would therefore be at risk for developing negative feelings toward our hair. Since I went natural my daughter has fallen in love with my hair! She is always wanting to touch it and telling me how fluffy and pretty it is. I would not be willing to jeopordize this positive attatchment she now has toward natural hair.

A big part of why I went natural in the first place was to show by example that as black people, our original design is without flaw. I wanted them to see that I was no longer willing to, in essense "apologize" for the way my hair naturally grows from my head.

 

[UrbainChic]

/\ Excellent point! thinking back to my own experience, I think the fact that we never used it is part of why i never internalized the negativity I noticed when the girl at camp used it.

 

[Nonie]

I think Kurlee is saying you cannot just remove the negative connotation from a word for all of society because you do not find it offensive in and of itself.

But I think Nonie is trying to say, Its okay If everyone is not afraid to use it, because unlike the other derogatory N-word, or other derogatory words, its original meaning is neutral, meaning there is possibility that over time it could change, as people's mindsets change.

In both situations i think the words Gay, and F@g are great examples, because both of those words do not have inherently bad connotations, but depending on who you are and how they are used, they can be offensive, one more offensive than the other. Perfect example on how you
a) should not ignore the fact that a word is loaded
and
b) that a word's meaning is changeable.


Did I paraphrase both of your points correctly ladies?


BTW I think this is such a great thread. I like to break up the how I like to flatiron or condition my hair thread with some stuff of substance. Its also super great because we all have so many different backgrounds, I love the differences of perspective

Yes, you kinda did, except I'm not really so concerned with people's mindsets changing on it, but rather just hoped to enlighten people just as I was on what it is about this innocent word that came to make it so taboo in some people's minds. That my posts changed someone's mind was a plus but it's not why I have been posting. I just like to learn and understand people and assume others do too, hence my rambling to hopefully inform. But also because I realized that there were those who were just flabbergasted by the audacity of those who use the word casually, I wanted to lay down our point of view.

I appreciate your post because Kurlee's agreement that you assessed her well does confirm I too have understood her stand all along, even though she thinks I haven't, which is why I gave examples that showed how, in certain circles, being black will never be accepted in society but it doesn't affect me in one way or another because I don't view being black as a bad.

Perhaps Kurlee doesn't like my examples or see their relevance because she doesn't see the correlation between the word nappy and the word black since she can't imagine our people shunning the latter word. So to her, it's a bad example because it's not about "respecting our own", while avoiding the use of the word "nappy" would be. Except, I do know a few on this forum (and I imagine they represent a quota of the population) who do not like to be called black even though they are descendants of Africans and are as dark as I am with hardly any drop of an outside race in them. I respect their stand just as I do that of those who hate the word "nappy" and as long as I remember it is they I am addressing, I will try my darnest not to call them black. I forget all the explanations for not liking the word "black" being applied to them, but I seem to recall there being a history of being treated with contempt because of their skin color and having the word punctuate insults they got, so that it became a word that hurts. So a word many of us use so casually in almost every thread to describe ourselves is a word they view the same way some of you view "nappy".

But I don't see many of us making apologies for using it. In fact, I would dare say many rolled their eyes when these people expressed their discomfort with the word black and stated that they preferred to be called brown or colored. And that we keeping calling each other "black" on just about every post isn't because we are "taking back the word" or "embracing it" or not caring at all about how they feel. We do it because in all sincerity, we are so comfortable with being black and calling ourselves black and find the word completely harmless, 100% true, very accurate, no-hidden-agenda neutral...just plain innocent. Now if we addressed one of those people as black and they told us "I am not black, I am colored", then we ought to respect them the same way we respect "My hair is not nappy" and avoid using it when referring to them. (I'm sure some of you can now understand the stress telling folks not to use an innocent word puts on someone to whom it's almost as useful as a comma.)

If I were the one who hated the word "nappy" I would truly be OK with folks using it on themselves. I have friends who call each other the N-word which I loathe but it is not my place to tell grown people who know my opinion on the word what to call each other. As long as they don't address me like that, fine. And if they slipped and did, I'd remind them. I honestly would not think they are doing it to be mean, coz they have made it in their head an innocent word, but it isn't to me. So while I can understand why they might slip and call me that (although they tend to use only among their fellow men so it's unlikely) I would hope they would check themselves and correct their slip if they accidentally used it on me. But I would not karate chop them. This would be one of those incidents where you have to look at the source and the intent.

Somehow when I was typing that point about AAs who hate to be called black, Tiger Woods came to mind because he is one who got mocked for saying he wasn't black. Up to this day, I have NEVER had an issue with his saying he was not black but Cablasian. I fully understood his wanting to embrace his whole heritage entirely, regardless of how he looks. Just the same way I understand the choice of those of you who say their hair isn't nappy but coily, curly or textured, regardless of how how nappy it looks to me.

In other words, I don't try to force people to do things they aren't comfortable doing, and just hope that they won't force me to do things I'm not comfortable doing. Telling me not to use the word "nappy" w/r/t hair (ever!) makes me tense because it'd be like telling me not to use the word "black" w/r/t race and it'd feel like I'd have to walk on egg shells for the rest of my life. It'd seriously feel like I lost my freedom and was living a different kind of slavery to words.

 

[Nonie]

Sianna, if I were in your shoes (and from talking to a few people that grew up in America but who seem to view things in ways that make me wonder how come they seem to have "moved on"), what I would do and will do if I ever have a daughter is tell her the whole truth about the word. Where it came from, how it was used...basically let her get to see the whole picture. Knowledge is power. And if she can be wise enough to understand the two sides of the coin, I think she'll be able to handle it better should she encounter it in either form.

I imagine (and I'm sure she'll PM me to correct me if I'm wrong) that the lady who PMed me to thank me for changing her mind about "nappy" will not be ignorant when someone tries to use it to hurt her, nor will she take offense when someone uses it innocently. In other words, knowing all the things it can be and being able to discern when it's used negatively and when it is not, will make her less likely to karate chop Nonie unfairly on the one extreme or applaud and smile with Imus (or one like him) on the other extreme.

 

[CocoGlow]

I just have to ask:

For those that take offense to the word "Nappy", what are these many...many... many OTHER words you would prefer to use to describe natural type 4 hair? Seriously, please list them, so that I can know my options...

Is the term nappy not accurate? Are the other terms MORE accurate of a description or are they just as accurate as nappy - just "safer"?

Also, for those that think that since some of "society" uses it in a negative way, it should therefore not be a word we embrace...think about this....is it really the actual word Nappy or what it represents?

Let's say these people used another word on the "acceptable adjectives for our hair list" such as: kinky, fluffy, afro-ey (lol), puff, cloud, coily, curly, etc, etc ... wouldn't "society" also use those words with the same disgust & shame as the word nappy? They would be referring to the same thing .. our hair texture .. but see other than the word used, the attitude remains the same ... so the problem really isn't the word nappy, it's "society's" disdain for the tightly coiled hair that sprouts out of MY head - no matter what they choose to call it!

Instead of vomiting out: "Oh she got that Nappy hair!" with such hate & disgust, they would just vomit out: "Oh she got that (insert more acceptable adjective here) hair!" with the same hate & disgust ... Why get upset with the term and not the ignorance ...

I had to quote myself on this one b/c I don't my point was understood

Again .... for those that would rather use and have others use the words: KINKY, COILY, CURLY, COTTONY, FLUFFY, etc, ... given the history of disgust for the hair that grows from my head & your head, do you really think that the word change would make a difference in the way they regard MY/OUR hair?

Wouldn't Black mothers still be slapping relaxers on their 4yr old daughters hair saying:
"Girl we've gotta do something about these unmanageable KINKS!"

Wouldn't Black women still be running from the pool/rain/gym saying:
"Oh no that's gonna show up my COILY roots!"

Wouldn't Imus have called the black female basketball players:
"COTTONY-headed ____!"

Wouldn't "society" use these "safer" terms with the same hatred/shame for MY/OUR hair if we were to eradicate the term NAPPY?

To be honest I have actually heard people use the "safer" terms KINKY or COTTONY with that same disgust as when they use NAPPY ...

Why do we somehow feel that using the "safer" terms is somehow going to get rid of the long-held & widely-held belief that the hair that grows from MY/OUR heads is ugly/bad?

We are all angry/sad about the same thing but whether we use the term NAPPY or another descriptive word, there will still be plenty of people who use either term like a curse word!

 

[Aviah]

^ I get your point. I still don't like the word though I have nothing against the hair itself. Like all hair I love it well cared for, preferably thick and long. Or if its natural, I love it BIG.
It does depend on the usage. When my hair is locked from sleeping on a Wng the wrong way without a scarf and dried almost into a dread I'll say it- its nappy. But I don't use to to describe others, I feel its offensive. I wouldn't like it said to me, so I don't say it to others. I take it to mean unkempt, dry, matted, uncombed hair. Which can be almost anyone IMO. I'd rather refer to hair that people may recognize as "nappy" as: really kinky, afro, tightly curled/coiled afro, etc.

 

[Kurlee]

Yes, you kinda did, except I'm not really so concerned with people's mindsets changing on it, but rather just hoped to enlighten people just as I was on what it is about this innocent word that came to make it so taboo in some people's minds. That my posts changed someone's mind was a plus but it's not why I have been posting. I just like to learn and understand people and assume others do too, hence my rambling to hopefully inform. But also because I realized that there were those who were just flabbergasted by the audacity of those who use the word casually, I wanted to lay down our point of view.

I appreciate your post because Kurlee's agreement that you assessed her well does confirm I too have understood her stand all along, even though she thinks I haven't, which is why I gave examples that showed how, in certain circles, being black will never be accepted in society but it doesn't affect me in one way or another because I don't view being black as a bad.

Perhaps Kurlee doesn't like my examples or see their relevance because she doesn't see the correlation between the word nappy and the word black since she can't imagine our people shunning the latter word. So to her, it's a bad example because it's not about "respecting our own", while avoiding the use of the word "nappy" would be. Except, I do know a few on this forum (and I imagine they represent a quota of the population) who do not like to be called black even though they are descendants of Africans and are as dark as I am with hardly any drop of an outside race in them. I respect their stand just as I do that of those who hate the word "nappy" and as long as I remember it is they I am addressing, I will try my darnest not to call them black. I forget all the explanations for not liking the word "black" being applied to them, but I seem to recall there being a history of being treated with contempt because of their skin color and having the word punctuate insults they got, so that it became a word that hurts. So a word many of us use so casually in almost every thread to describe ourselves is a word they view the same way some of you view "nappy".

But I don't see many of us making apologies for using it. In fact, I would dare say many rolled their eyes when these people expressed their discomfort with the word black and stated that they preferred to be called brown or colored. And that we keeping calling each other "black" on just about every post isn't because we are "taking back the word" or "embracing it" or not caring at all about how they feel. We do it because in all sincerity, we are so comfortable with being black and calling ourselves black and find the word completely harmless, 100% true, very accurate, no-hidden-agenda neutral...just plain innocent. Now if we addressed one of those people as black and they told us "I am not black, I am colored", then we ought to respect them the same way we respect "My hair is not nappy" and avoid using it when referring to them. (I'm sure some of you can now understand the stress telling folks not to use an innocent word puts on someone to whom it's almost as useful as a comma.)

If I were the one who hated the word "nappy" I would truly be OK with folks using it on themselves. I have friends who call each other the N-word which I loathe but it is not my place to tell grown people who know my opinion on the word what to call each other. As long as they don't address me like that, fine. And if they slipped and did, I'd remind them. I honestly would not think they are doing it to be mean, coz they have made it in their head an innocent word, but it isn't to me. So while I can understand why they might slip and call me that (although they tend to use only among their fellow men so it's unlikely) I would hope they would check themselves and correct their slip if they accidentally used it on me. But I would not karate chop them. This would be one of those incidents where you have to look at the source and the intent.

Somehow when I was typing that point about AAs who hate to be called black, Tiger Woods came to mind because he is one who got mocked for saying he wasn't black. Up to this day, I have NEVER had an issue with his saying he was not black but Cablasian. I fully understood his wanting to embrace his whole heritage entirely, regardless of how he looks. Just the same way I understand the choice of those of you who say their hair isn't nappy but coily, curly or textured, regardless of how how nappy it looks to me.

In other words, I don't try to force people to do things they aren't comfortable doing, and just hope that they won't force me to do things I'm not comfortable doing. Telling me not to use the word "nappy" w/r/t hair (ever!) makes me tense because it'd be like telling me not to use the word "black" w/r/t race and it'd feel like I'd have to walk on egg shells for the rest of my life. It'd seriously feel like I lost my freedom and was living a different kind of slavery to words.

wrong again, 99% of the time of time I use the word "black", I write it in quotations, because I do not like it. It almost always in quotes. second, my intention is not to convert anybody, I just think it is flawed logic to still use it. If u call ur hair that, then cool. Just don't refer to my hair like that and we're alright.

 

[Nonie]

wrong again, 99% of the time of time I use the word "black", I write it in quotations, because I do not like it. It almost always in quotes. second, my intention is not to convert anybody, I just think it is flawed logic to still use it. If u call ur hair that, then cool. Just don't refer to my hair like that and we're alright.

Wrong about what? If you are uneasy about the word "black" I would never have guessed it coz in this thread, it is only in one post (#118) that you put it in quotes. Otherwise in posts #83, #97, #126 which are the other times you used the word, you didn't have it in quotes--you might want to edit . So I don't know about this 99% of the time you say you put it in quotes. But that's neither here nor there. My post didn't isolate you when I talked about how we use the word "black" to refer to ourselves without hesitation. I was just stating a fact and we do it with such ease because it doesn't make us cringe like the word "nappy" does some of you. Yet it too isn't fair for those who aren't comfortable with it. And if "black" bothered you so, you'd not use it at all. You'd use other words like those who truly do not like the word; in other words, you would treat it like you do the word "nappy". To me the way you feel about "black" is the way say UrbainChic feels about "nappy". She doesn't really mind it but will not use it much around her kids. (I'm sure I'm wrong about that additional point about you too, so scrap that last line. )

I also did not say you're out to covert anyone. And maybe you aren't saying I did when you say you're not out to convert anyone. But since you say that in the same paragraph that started with a statement that I am wrong, I assume you think I said you are. If so, you're wrong. I didn't. My statement was just that: a statement lest anyone think my preaching is a mission to win souls.

Lastly, I have said about 184374398743 times that I do not call people's hair nappy who do not believe their hair is nappy. And yours, my dear, is nowhere near nappy, so I doubt I'd ever slip and call it thus. The folks that I consider to have nappy hair are those that fit the description of "tightly coiled/curled" and as I have said before and I will say again, I would not call anyone's hair nappy if I knew they didn't like it called so, never mind if it looked 100% nappy to me. But since human is to err, I did humbly state that if I slipped and did (again, would never happen with you), I would stand corrected if you told me you didn't like it , and yes, I'd be sorry I made you uncomfortable, and would make every effort not to make that mistake again.

One more thing, lest anyone be afraid they'd have to control their temper around me. Rest assured Nonie is overly obsessed with her own hair almost to a point of selfishly being oblivious to the fact that anyone else around her has hair. She's so self-consumed that even if she met any of you, besides complimenting a nice do or pretty hair, she'd probably never get into discussing your hair at all; she might bore you with tales of hers though. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever used the word nappy to address anyone about their hair on the forum, which is where I let loose about hair--not unless they used it first on their own hair.

So what was I wrong about again?

 

[Harina]

I probably already posted in here, but I have no problem with the words Nappy or kinky or wooly or whatever other words people use to describe our hair because that is exactly what it is. I always thought it was the cutest, most accurate words to be honest. I didn't realize it was bad until Imusgate.

 

[ceebee3]

I probably already posted in here, but I have no problem with the words Nappy or kinky or wooly or whatever other words people use to describe our hair because that is exactly what it is. I always thought it was the cutest, most accurate words to be honest. I didn't realize it was bad until Imusgate.

Oh, lord IMUS! Yes, people would rather be called ho's then to be called nappy. They weren't mad at the ho part.

 

[Kurlee]

oh lord Nonie, I use the word "black" on this forum and most of the time, in most threads I put it in quotes. I have stated many times on the form, my views as far as race being a social construct. Sometimes I'm on my phone and it's a real headache to put it in quotes, with a touch screen. I don't really like the term "black" and am still trying to find an alternative, but I am still deciding about that. Is that okay with you? Lawd, you had to go back and find post #'s? Really?

I dunno, I have been reading your posts, but I just find them very argumentative, aggressive and one sided. At this point, if I respond to your last post, I will be repeating myself and judging from your responses, you really don't get where I am coming from, so it will just continue on and on. So let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Nonie]

oh lord Nonie, I use the word "black" on this forum and most of the time, in most threads I put it in quotes. I have stated many times on the form, my views as far as race being a social construct. Sometimes I'm on my phone and it's a real headache to put it in quotes, with a touch screen. I don't really like the term "black" and am still trying to find an alternative, but I am still deciding about that. Is that okay with you? Lawd, you had to go back and find post #'s? Really?

I dunno, I have been reading your posts, but I just find them very argumentative, aggressive and one sided. At this point, if I respond to your last post, I will be repeating myself and judging from your responses, you really don't get where I am coming from, so it will just continue on and on. So let's just agree to disagree.

OK.

 

[curlyninjagirl]

Again, I'm going to refer to the word "retarded", which less than 20 years ago was a common term that refered to the condition of the mental challenged.

I think this word is a perfect example of how words that start off innocently enough become bastardized by negative connotations over the years. This is the basic idea behind political correctness and why new terms evolve. This is the reason we are no longer refered to as "colored" and "negroes". I, for one, am glad about that.

The following excerpt is a brief history of the word "retarded":

Retarded comes from the Latin retardare, "to make slow, delay, keep back, or hinder." The term was recorded in 1426 as a "fact or action of making slower in movement or time." The first record of retarded in relation to being mentally slow was in 1895. The term retarded was used to replace terms like idiot, moron, and imbecile because it was not a derogatory term. By the 1960s, however, the term had taken on a partially derogatory meaning as well.[21] The noun "retard" is particularly seen as pejorative; as of 2010, the Special Olympics, Best Buddies and over 100 other organizations are striving to help eliminate the use of the "r-word" (analogous to the "n-word") in everyday conversation.

 

[Lola Laughs]

^^Great analogy!

 

[*CherryPie*]

What's wrong with "Black"? erplexed

oh lord Nonie, I use the word "black" on this forum and most of the time, in most threads I put it in quotes. I have stated many times on the form, my views as far as race being a social construct. Sometimes I'm on my phone and it's a real headache to put it in quotes, with a touch screen. I don't really like the term "black" and am still trying to find an alternative, but I am still deciding about that. Is that okay with you? Lawd, you had to go back and find post #'s? Really?

I dunno, I have been reading your posts, but I just find them very argumentative, aggressive and one sided. At this point, if I respond to your last post, I will be repeating myself and judging from your responses, you really don't get where I am coming from, so it will just continue on and on. So let's just agree to disagree.

 

[equestrian]

I don't find it offensive, as long as your talking about yourself.

your reffering to "nappy" right not the other N???

 

[beans4reezy]

I don't find it offensive, as long as your talking about yourself.

Okay, this thread is outta control!

But, very informative. It's wonderful reading both sides of the debate.

 

[CocoGlow]

I know of people who already use the "safer" term KINKY in the same derogatory manner they use NAPPY ... their feelings about tightly coiled hair did not change at ALL

Soon it won't be politically correct to say KINKY when referring to this hair type .. then what??.. are we going to move onto COILY , CURLY, FLUFFY, COTTONY, etc, etc .. will it really matter??

I totally understand why so many are up in arms about using NAPPY to describe our hair .. but honestly like I said before, until the hateful/shameful ATTITUDE about our hair changes, people WILL still use the "safer" terms in the same derogatory manner as they choose to use NAPPY .. like a curse word! .. then what??

 

[andromeda]

Again, I'm going to refer to the word "retarded", which less than 20 years ago was a common term that refered to the condition of the mental challenged.

I think this word is a perfect example of how words that start off innocently enough become bastardized by negative connotations over the years. This is the basic idea behind political correctness and why new terms evolve. This is the reason we are no longer refered to as "colored" and "negroes". I, for one, am glad about that.

The following excerpt is a brief history of the word "retarded":

Retarded comes from the Latin retardare, "to make slow, delay, keep back, or hinder." The term was recorded in 1426 as a "fact or action of making slower in movement or time." The first record of retarded in relation to being mentally slow was in 1895. The term retarded was used to replace terms like idiot, moron, and imbecile because it was not a derogatory term. By the 1960s, however, the term had taken on a partially derogatory meaning as well.[21] The noun "retard" is particularly seen as pejorative; as of 2010, the Special Olympics, Best Buddies and over 100 other organizations are striving to help eliminate the use of the "r-word" (analogous to the "n-word") in everyday conversation.

Your point is understood and has been made several times over in this thread. I tend to agree with the argument that certain words have been bastardized beyond possible redemption, to the point where there is social value in eliminating them from usage. I agree that "retarded", with its neutral origins and universally derogatory usage, is a good example of such a word. However, "retarded" isn't an accurate analog for "nappy". Why? Because the extent of derogatory usage of the word doesn't correlate well because "nappy" derogatory usage isn't universal, nor has it displaced its neutral meaning and usage.

Even if we do all agree that a word should stop being used once its bastardized, there still won't be consensus on "nappy" for several reasons. Chief among them:
1) Varying perceptions and experiences of usage. The inability of some to conceive the extent to which nappy is and has been used neutrally to describe textiles and hair.
2) Varying thresholds for when a word is "too far gone" - where does the tipping point of derogatory usage becoming bastardization occur?

I don't find it offensive, as long as your talking about yourself.

your reffering to "nappy" right not the other N???

I would think a cursory reading of the OP or the thread would've answered that question.

 

[Reinventing21]

I think coily is a great term to use as it fits with saying straight, wavy, curly and coily. This term does not have negative history associated with it.

I do agree however with those that say the attitude towards type 4 hair needs to change, not just the word. BUT the LHCFers have in fact started a hair revolution and our mentality is different so why not set the tone with a new word? Don't we deserve to be described with pretty words too? Can you imagine a day wear we can wear our hair beautifully however we want with our heads held high and saying that we coily hair?

I don't think the people who embrace kinky or nappy are wrong. They are just saying they define themselves, not someone else perceptions. But since negative connotations do exist for these words, why not us in the LHCF hair revolution set the tone for the future with a word like 'coily' that just sounds pretty like our hair?

The more others with negative attitudes toward type 4 hair see more and more and more and more examples of undeniably beautiful type 4 hair describing themselves respectfully with a pretty word picked by them rather than someone else, the more the world will forget about ugly history, and what would be wrong with that?

 

[Kurlee]

I think coily is a great term to use as it fits with saying straight, wavy, curly and coily. This term does not have negative history associated with it.

I do agree however with those that say the attitude towards type 4 hair needs to change, not just the word. BUT the LHCFers have in fact started a hair revolution and our mentality is different so why not set the tone with a new word? Don't we deserve to be described with pretty words too? Can you imagine a day wear we can wear our hair beautifully however we want with our heads held high and saying that we coily hair?

I don't think the people who embrace kinky or nappy are wrong. They are just saying they define themselves, not someone else perceptions. But since negative connotations do exist for these words, why not us in the LHCF hair revolution set the tone for the future with a word like 'coily' that just sounds pretty like our hair?

The more others with negative attitudes toward type 4 hair see more and more and more and more examples of undeniably beautiful type 4 hair describing themselves respectfully with a pretty word picked by them rather than someone else, the more the world will forget about ugly history, and what would be wrong with that?

aaaaaammmmmmmmeeeeeeennnnnnnnn!