"Taking Back the N-word" - Thoughts?

[Nonie]

I think coily is a great term to use as it fits with saying straight, wavy, curly and coily. This term does not have negative history associated with it.

I do agree however with those that say the attitude towards type 4 hair needs to change, not just the word. BUT the LHCFers have in fact started a hair revolution and our mentality is different so why not set the tone with a new word? Don't we deserve to be described with pretty words too? Can you imagine a day wear we can wear our hair beautifully however we want with our heads held high and saying that we coily hair?

I don't think the people who embrace kinky or nappy are wrong. They are just saying they define themselves, not someone else perceptions. But since negative connotations do exist for these words, why not us in the LHCF hair revolution set the tone for the future with a word like 'coily' that just sounds pretty like our hair?

The more others with negative attitudes toward type 4 hair see more and more and more and more examples of undeniably beautiful type 4 hair describing themselves respectfully with a pretty word picked by them rather than someone else, the more the world will forget about ugly history, and what would be wrong with that?

^^ Again, I can't follow this argument coz "nappy" and "kinky" are pretty words to me and have always been, because the are so much clearer in defining my hair than "coily" and "curly" which are as vague as they come.

The difference for me is the same as that which exists between "small" and "minute". "Coily" and "curly" do not differentiate my hair from say Shirley Temple's or hair set on big rollers. When I hear those words, I do not immediately think of very tiny or tight curls or coils, instead, I have a blur image that covers a whole range of curl sizes but not as tiny as those in my hair. So for me, "kinky" and "nappy" are as precise as one can get in defining my hair. And I prefer when I speak of my hair to emphasize the "cute micro curls" I have and not have them confused with any other. And to that end, "nappy" and "kinky" nail it for me.

And I do agree with Andromeda, "retarded" isn't a good example because even when it was used correctly and not as an insult, it was an adjective that described a mental condition that wasn't nice. No one would have wished that on someone they liked, so it's not like it was a pretty neutral word that got abused. And to some callous folks, a person with mental retardation was stupid or simple-minded. So it's easy to see how it could turn into an insult: "Why did you do that? Are you retarded, or something?"

When it comes to "nappy", the only way I can see that turning to an insult is if the word described something that wasn't nice to have. And the videos I posted clearly show why no one wanted to possess nappy hair when it meant you'd have to sport ugly-looking unkempt hair. It wasn't nappy because it was unkempt; it was unkempt because it was nappy and unable to be combed. It was because of the shame that came from being unkempt and disgusting to others, and being able to do nothing about it, that made "nappy" a bad word. And clearly we see this same explanation behind the reasons "gay" and "retarded" became an insults.

It wasn't too long ago that gay people kept their lives a total secret even to the point of living a lie as heterosexuals. Why? Coz being gay was something society frowned upon just like they used to on retardation. If you look up the history on being gay or retarded, you will see that society was never kind to either, and reactions to either ranged from shame, disgust, fear, association with sin/demon possession, to violence and even murder.

Today, there are gay people who are gay to be gay, and they wouldn't feel insulted to be called gay. Why? Because to them, it's no longer something to be ashamed of. They aren't looking for cuter words to describe themselves. They call each other gay with no qualms whatsoever because they know deep inside, that there is nothing wrong with being gay. You will notice this same pride in those who know how to work their naps and who have come to understand that there's nothing wrong with being nappy.

So like Nappyrina has indicated, it isn't so much that the word "nappy" itself is bad; the issue is the word describes a type of hair people were ashamed to have. And they were ashamed to have this sort of hair because it was impossible to make it look good. Those of you who do not want to believe that it is the type of hair rather than the word that "offends", if you are to be very honest, what type of hair is it that has been called "bad hair" for years? We all know that isn't type 1, 2 or 3 hair. It is type 4 hair, or to be more precise 4B. And why is that? Because we all know, deep inside, that our people have been ashamed of having nappy hair even to this day. And this complex has been passed on from generation to generation even if it's only now in folks' subconscious so that they hate the word without remembering why. Calling this hair kinky doesn't change the fact that it is still "bad hair" to many.

I, on the other hand, have never been ashamed of this hair because I've always known it as versatile and just neutral growing up; then once I saw it grow long (a lifetime dream) and learned more about it, it became more beautiful than I ever realized and it seems there's no end to what I can do with it. I didn't even know there was such a phrase as "bad hair" to describe texture not state. All this nonsense about texture being "good hair" or "bad hair" is something I encountered when I joined LHCF in this millennium. And I was born in the '60's in a country where those phrases weren't used in the way they are used here in the US, so I have had a lifetime of loving my hair and the words that describe it like "kinky" and "nappy"; words that have always been neutral and oh so precise. So like the gay who are filled with gay pride, I too am oh so happy to be nappy and overflowing with nappy pride.

 

[CocoGlow]

I think coily is a great term to use as it fits with saying straight, wavy, curly and coily. This term does not have negative history associated with it.

I do agree however with those that say the attitude towards type 4 hair needs to change, not just the word. BUT the LHCFers have in fact started a hair revolution and our mentality is different so why not set the tone with a new word? Don't we deserve to be described with pretty words too? Can you imagine a day wear we can wear our hair beautifully however we want with our heads held high and saying that we coily hair?

I don't think the people who embrace kinky or nappy are wrong. They are just saying they define themselves, not someone else perceptions. But since negative connotations do exist for these words, why not us in the LHCF hair revolution set the tone for the future with a word like 'coily' that just sounds pretty like our hair?

The more others with negative attitudes toward type 4 hair see more and more and more and more examples of undeniably beautiful type 4 hair describing themselves respectfully with a pretty word picked by them rather than someone else, the more the world will forget about ugly history, and what would be wrong with that?

What if someone w/ 4B hair (my texture) does not feel like COILY best describes my hair? ... Why is COILY a prettier term than NAPPY or KINKY? ... what if my coils are not defined and noticeable? .. would COILY really be an accurate term?

Or is COILY a prettier term b/c of what it represents?: shiny defined coils popping all over the place!! Oh how pretty!

But what about my afro cloud, my cottony dense strands, my coils that are NOT defined?

Why can't we describe hair textures as they truly are: STRAIGHT, WAVY, CURLY, COILY, KINKY/NAPPY (aka so TIGHTLY-COILED it deserves it's own category)

Why can't NAPPY/KINKY be a pretty word that we say w/ pride? Why can't NAPPY/KINKY hair be admired just like COILY hair? It all goes back to this....

Wouldn't it be awesome to see women with MY texture embracing their napps w/ pride, showing the world that what was once viewed as ugly is now viewed as beautiful .. just as beautiful as other textures ... unique and NOT lumped into a "prettier" sounding category that does not best describe their hair ?

 

[andromeda]

nail.on.head, Nonie and NappyRina.

Descriptive words are about accuracy and precision. This is what makes the development and use of language so impressive and ambitious; we are always in pursuit of finding and creating words that perfectly capture an object's traits. And once we find that word that perfectly describes an object, especially an object that we possess and hold dear, it would be counter-intuitive and counter-productive to return to using a word that fell short.

Originally Posted by NappyRina
Why is COILY a prettier term than NAPPY or KINKY? ... what if my coils are not defined and noticeable? .. would COILY really be an accurate term?

I wanted to ask the same question.

Or is COILY a prettier term b/c of what it represents?: shiny defined coils popping all over the place!! Oh how pretty!

I suspect this is the case for some people. And to a certain extent, I can rationalize it because I have some thoughts on how the preference for poppin' curls might be a reflection of an inclination that transcends race, species and history. But that's another thread...

 

[Kurlee]

nail.on.head, Nonie and NappyRina.

Descriptive words are about accuracy and precision. This is what makes the development and use of language so impressive and ambitious; we are always in pursuit of finding and creating words that perfectly capture an object's traits. And once we find that word that perfectly describes an object, especially an object that we possess and hold dear, it would be counter-intuitive and counter-productive to return to using a word that fell short.


I wanted to ask the same question.

I suspect this is the case for some people. And to a certain extent, I can rationalize it because I have some thoughts on how the preference for poppin' curls might be a reflection of an inclination that transcends race, species and history. But that's another thread...

it's a "prettier" term because it does not have a long standing history of being used to degrade, mistreat and kill people. And what if your hair really is curly. 4b is not the only texture or at least "most authentic" texture a "black" person can have.

 

[andromeda]

it's a "prettier" term because it does not have a long standing history of being used to degrade, mistreat and kill people.

I thought that she was getting at that. Although, if that's the case, "Pretty" or "prettier" is still somewhat inaccurate or suggestive of something beyond "less bad/without negative connotations", so I think I'm still missing something.

And what if your hair really is curly. 4b is not the only texture or at least "most authentic" texture a "black" person can have.

You're responding to a sentiment that hasn't been expressed (to my knowledge). In fact, I made it a point to state "some" upthread in my initial response to you

The word and its usage is neither inherently or consistently derogatory nor insulting. It's an adjective that accurately describes some of our hair. I resent that I would be accused of perpetuating inferiority simply by virtue of using an accurate, neutral adjective to describe my hair.

because I know that the 4b texture that nappy describes doesn't encompass all black people nor is it exclusive to black people. That's why I'm actually hesitant to use the word "afro-textured" because the textures of native sub-saharan African populations vary widely. And for the record, I consider my hair curly, coily and nappy. For my hair, coily (very tightly-coiled to be exact) is a more precise than curly and nappy is more precise and vivid because there are swaths of my hair that don't have discernible coils and those sections, along with the sections that do coil, are inclined to form naps and be nappy.

@ If you want to have a separate discussion about the tendency of some people to act as if 4b is the "only" or "most authentic" black texture, that's cool - it's generally a valid observation. This is the second time you've referred to that misconception in this thread and I'm welcome to you elaborating your thoughts(I tend to agree with many of them, btw ), so long as you don't present strawmans.

 

[Nonie]

Where did people get the idea that "nappy" was used as an insult and not just a description? I mean really? Why is it so hard for people to think outside the box and consider that perhaps it's the shame that came from having unkempt hair that made any reference to it upsetting and feel like an insult.

When the white man came to Africa, and some Africans called him transparent or clear, I don't think that was meant as an insult. But that you could see his veins through his skin or see him blush as if you're looking right at his blood might've seemed like he had see-through skin. When the African thought his hair was stringy, that too wasn't an insult. It was what it is. The hair was unlike anything they had seen and looked like the sisal they used to weave baskets. It was stringy. Of course when they were angry about something or if they hated the white man, they might call him "stringy-haired a$$hole". The word "a$$hole" would be the insult; the "stringy-haired" part just made it clear whom it is they were talking about and wasn't an insult, but it could be considered as such if the white man preferred that his hair be called "silky fibers" or some other name that was less accurate.

My grandmother used to gawk at white folks coz they fascinated her and she'd always share a new discovery about them. I remember her saying that she is so glad that she's not white because it seems that at her age, their lips disappear. She didn't mean it as an insult. It's what she observed. So if she called them "no-lip people", it'd be said with no malice whatsoever; it'd just be a description.

Tell me something people, if it is just the word "nappy" that is offensive, where did the phrase "bad hair" come from? Wasn't that from our own people who viewed kinky hair as such and wanted nothing to do with it? As many as there are black people with 4B hair in this world, why is it that there are so many who believe that the hair type is uncommon? And why is it that even here on the forum it is the one hair type that seems to give people the hardest time in learning to deal with it, the hair we know least about? Why is it that it is the hair type most worry that Corporate America will not accept? Because for years, especially in the West, it was impossible to see it worn in its glory. Parents relaxed 4B hair as fast as they could so they didn't have to see it or deal with it--a practice passed on from generations past. Remarks like "You, you can wear your hair natural because you have that 'good hair'" are heard even to this day. Where did today's generation learn about "bad hair" from if not from our ancestors who decided years ago that hair that wasn't 1, 2, or 3 was hair to be ashamed of--hair that needed fixing? "You really need a perm coz you don't have that 'good hair'" sounds a lot like "You really need a perm coz your roots are nappy". The last line might be have been adopted by other-hair-typed folks but we can't all act like we don't really know where it originally came from. Especially since type 3's have worn their hair natural for years and didn't hear it from just about everyone that they needed a perm.

It is WE who create insults about ourselves from innocent English words. The same way black people decided that some of us had "bad hair" is the same way black people turned "nappy hair" to be a insult. Don't get it twisted. If the white man wanted to insult us, I doubt his vocabulary was so limited that he had to find a neutral descriptive word to use as an insult.

 

[Kurlee]

I truly believe that the term nappy, regardless of it's innocent origins, transformed into something negative over time. Yes, it may have originally been intended as a descriptor, but MOST people understand and KNOW that it no longer has that meaning. I have read many books and journal articles that have used slave/slave masters journals and records as their source of information and when "nappy" was used, it was not used as an innocent descriptor. In the contemporary sense, it still is not used by the vast majority of people in a positive way. It's really not worth the trouble. If I know a word is loaded, even if in my personal experience it was positive, upon learning it is offensive to most, I would just use a different word. It is much less offensive and easier to simply use a different word, than to continue to use something I KNOW is offensive outside of my bubble, and run the risk of offending others.

It just does not make sense to me. Nappy, to me, is not an accurate description of anything. Nappy, when I observe the usage, I have seen other people use it in, it is not for cottony or cloudy, but to express tangled, matted, hair that needs to be "fixed". MOST people use it in that way, so it does not describe texture, but is just a word to mean "ugly, unkept hair that needs to fixed (read straightened).

I do not agree with these sentiments, but that is how the word is most commonly used. If I say someone has very curly hair, most people will think of just that, very tight, spirals and curls. If I say coily hair, people will perceive what I say as the way the little springs are in gadgets, watches, and little electronics. When you say "nappy", for the majority of people, that can be soooooooo many things. It can be almost anything that that person considers not "done", which can run the gamut of any hair in the 3 and up category.

It has such a negative implication and that negative implication is a result of colonialism. Using it now, is not embracing anything, it is just keeping that negativity alive. Yes, words can change meaning over time, but frankly, I will only live so long and do not see this word changing it's mean and general understanding by MOST, any time, soon. It is much faster and easier to use a different word. No stigma or ugly history, and describes my hair? Cool. Problem solved.

At the end of the day, it's my hair on my head and I don't need to be soooooooooo extra in my description to other people, who probably don't even care that much. No need to be like "in your face", my hair has a curl diameter of 1 cm, i'm natural and loving it. I love my hair and all that, but it doesn't always have to be a statement or a way to prove something. If I'm truly secure, the hair and so called confidence will speak for itself. No need to hang on to archaic, oppressive terms, to prove anything. Like seriously, if your is curly, wavy, cottony, puffy, thick, silky. Just call it that and keep it moving. The "nappy" militancy is a little much, especially when in real life, most people really don't care too much, whether you called you hair "nappy", instead or "coily". Black people have so many identity and self esteem issues and I really think it's time that we move forward and stop using oppressive things and expect things to change as community. They can only change when we uplift each other and referring to our hair as something that is USED NOW as a derogatory term and perpetuates good hair and bad hair, is not going to encourage progress.

 

[andromeda]

@ Nonie Interesting perspective, esp drawing the comparison between "clear" and "nappy", and I do agree there's a component of internalization, though I'm hesitant to place more blame on blacks than whites about the term becoming an insult.

I wish we could refrain from . Y'all can type however you please and I'm inclined to hope that is being directed at certain notions and not certain posters. However, I know that can be perceived as inflamatory and I want the conversation to remain civil, especially since everyone is making thought-provoking points and contributing to a lively discussion.

 

[andromeda]

It just does not make sense to me. Nappy, to me, is not an accurate description of anything. Nappy, when I observe the usage, I have seen other people use it in, it is not for cottony or cloudy, but to express tangled, matted, hair that needs to be "fixed". MOST people use it in that way, so it does not describe texture, but is just a word to mean "ugly, unkept hair that needs to fixed (read straightened).

The assertion that "nappy" describes a state/condition rather than a texture is interesting. For some people, "coily" speaks more to a condition than a naturally-occurring texture. However, it would not surprise me that if you exist an environment where "nappy" hair or a 4b texture is seen as bad that, by extension, the usage of that term would suggest a defect that needs to be fixed. That's more reflective of the mentality of the user and the fact that hair can be manipulated than the definitive meaning and usage of the word.

It has such a negative implication and that negative implication is a result of colonialism. Using it now, is not embracing anything, it is just keeping that negativity alive. Yes, words can change meaning over time, but frankly, I will only live so long and do not see this word changing it's mean and general understanding by MOST, any time, soon. It is much faster and easier to use a different word. No stigma or ugly history, and describes my hair? Cool. Problem solved.

Point well taken. I understand your argument.

At the end of the day, it's my hair on my head and I don't need to be soooooooooo extra in my description to other people, who probably don't even care that much. No need to be like "in your face", my hair has a curl diameter of 1 cm, i'm natural and loving it. I love my hair and all that, but it doesn't always have to be a statement or a way to prove something. If I'm truly secure, the hair and so called confidence will speak for itself.

erplexed Seems like there's some projection or unfair characterization going on here. If one perceives a word as neutral and/or accurate, then what's "so extra" about using it? It is what is. And your use of hyperbole - "curl diameter of 1 cm" - is ineffective, inaccurate and, frankly, a bit insulting in its implication. *takes a moment to admire my alliteration* What are you getting at? How is accurately describing one's hair trying to prove something? Is it that the further we move up the numbered hair typing system, the more we cede our right to accurately describe our hair - so a 1-type can say "straight" or "bone straight" but a 4b can't say "extremely tightly coiled", because that would be extra? *looks around* And considering the context where this discussion is taking place, I think it's a bit much to act as though even the most fervent among us would use cm to describe our hair IRL to the average non-LHCFer. So now we're setting conditions for what makes one confident?

No need to hang on to archaic, oppressive terms, to prove anything. Like seriously, if your is curly, wavy, cottony, puffy, thick, silky. Just call it that and keep it moving. The "nappy" militancy is a little much, especially when in real life, most people really don't care too much, whether you called you hair "nappy", instead or "coily". Black people have so many identity and self esteem issues and I really think it's time that we move forward and stop using oppressive things and expect things to change as community. They can only change when we uplift each other and referring to our hair as something that is USED NOW as a derogatory term and perpetuates good hair and bad hair, is not going to encourage progress.

Is it not also militant to restrict people to certain words and insist that they "keep it moving"? How does using a word which you don't take issue with suggest that you're "stalling" or "lingering"? And if people really don't care too much, then that seems to invalidate/contradict much of what you've said and how insistently you've expressed it.

 

[Nonie]

@ Nonie Interesting perspective, esp drawing the comparison between "clear" and "nappy", and I do agree there's a component of internalization, though I'm hesitant to place more blame on blacks than whites about the term becoming an insult.

I guess the reason I find it hard to put all blame on white people is because it isn't white people that called our hair "bad hair" and it's already been expressed a few times on this forum how much we, black people, are our worst enemies. I don't doubt that EVERYTHING the slave masters said about us was said with contempt. They could have been turned on by our curvy bodies but I'm sure they didn't call it anything flattering but would probably have a look of disgust as they loudly called us wide-butt and big a$$. So however they said anything, it came off as horrible. I am sure if you think back to everything you've heard in your lifetime, you will remember an innocent word that was said to someone with anger and disdain and that person began to hate that about themselves.

Let's look at the same words used by a man you're in love with at play. "Ooh...baby, bring that big ol' butt here to Daddy! You know I'm a butt man and can't resist you when you're looking so *licks lips* ....sexy" I am sure we would not take offense because we know the source of those words is a good heart. We might hate our weight and want to change the size of our butt for a smaller one, but that someone loves it might make us feel not so bad about it after all.

I mean I'm sure butt implants are on the rise because the same bodies that were looked at with contempt are now the "in" thing. In Africa, child-bearing hips have always been an asset, and it was the white man's look of disgust that convinced many for years that it was not a good look. He put his noassatall woman on a pedestal and we started to believe that nothing we are is good. The same way his look of disgust at our unkempt hair (Hair we too were ashamed to have because even WE knew it looked bad from not being groomed) convinced us that it was bad hair and we labeled it thus.

I wish we could refrain from . Y'all can type however you please and I'm inclined to hope that is being directed at certain notions and not certain posters. However, I know that can be perceived as inflamatory and I want the conversation to remain civil, especially since everyone is making thought-provoking points and contributing to a lively discussion.

Point taken. Last post edited. But for the record, I was reacting to the statements/beliefs and not posters.

 

[Nonie]

To further explain the point I was trying to make, consider a child who peed in his pants at a party and his peers found out. Whether an accident from laughing so hard or an ailment was the cause, the child is bound to experience some embarrassment because he cannot undo that the event happened. And if people started calling him "Wet Pants", every time the phrase would be uttered it'd bring a vivid memory of the shame he felt (especially if he's an impressionable child) and it'd hurt.

Now suppose the scenario had been different and the kid had jumped into a pool as a dare and came out the water laughing his head off coz he found it hilarious that his clothes were soaking wet. He might take of his shirt so he doesn't get a chill but keep his pants coz no kid will take his pants off and walk around naked or in his undies at a party. If the other kids nicknamed him "Wet Pants", he'd probably laugh it off with them because it isn't embarrassing in this case. Every time he would hear the phrase "Wet Pants" he might recall his crazy antics and chuckle, but there'd be no hurt. He might even jovially explain to a future girlfriend why he is nicknamed "Wet Pants".

Do you see the difference? Same phrase and very factual in both cases, but in the case where it refers to something that the person in question is ashamed of, it brings pain and feels like an insult; while in the case where it refers to something that person in question is not ashamed of, it's just that: a fact; not a good thing or a bad thing, just a fact. Am I the only one seeing a parallel with the phrase "nappy hair"?

When the white man used "nappy" w/r/t the hair of slaves, he was describing a hair they were ashamed to have because they couldn't change the fact that it was unkempt, so hearing it brought pain as it made them relive over and over and over the shame they felt for having hair that was so uncared for.

ETA Another phrase that just came to mind that many black people started to view as an insult is "big lips". Cartoons would be drawn with lips filling the face as if they were caricatures to magnify something true about us but which somewhere along the way we were made to think was a bad thing. The phrase "big lips" isn't an insult but it felt like one when it was uttered because it was said in ways that made it seem like an ugly curse. I remember reading magazines showing how to apply lipstick/lip liner inside the lips so as to make the lips look smaller because big lips were not cool. Fast forward to now and not only are folks paying lots of money to get their lips bigger but lipsticks are even being made with some lip plumping ingredient. So now if someone calls you "big lips" you probably will not take offense because you now realize it is OK and even rather cool to have big lips. Again, a phrase that used to hurt, not because in itself it is hurtful but because of what we thought of the idea of having big lips. We believed that was not a beautiful thing, so we hated being called that.

 

[MonPetite]

To further explain the point I was trying to make, consider a child who peed in his pants at a party and his peers found out. Whether an accident from laughing so hard or an ailment was the cause, the child is bound to experience some embarrassment because he cannot undo that the event happened. And if people started calling him "Wet Pants", every time the phrase would be uttered it'd bring a vivid memory of the shame he felt (especially if he's an impressionable child) and it'd hurt.

Now suppose the scenario had been different and the kid had jumped into a pool as a dare and came out the water laughing his head off coz he found it hilarious that his clothes were soaking wet. He might take of his shirt so he doesn't get a chill but keep his pants coz no kid will take his pants off and walk around naked or in his undies at a party. If the other kids nicknamed him "Wet Pants", he'd probably laugh it off with them because it isn't embarrassing in this case. Every time he would hear the phrase "Wet Pants" he might recall his crazy antics and chuckle, but there'd be no hurt. He might even jovially explain to a future girlfriend why he is nicknamed "Wet Pants".

Do you see the difference? Same phrase and very factual in both cases, but in the case where it refers to something that the person in question is ashamed of, it brings pain and feels like an insult; while in the case where it refers to something that person in question is not ashamed of, it's just that: a fact; not a good thing or a bad thing, just a fact. Am I the only one seeing a parallel with the phrase "nappy hair"?

When the white man used "nappy" w/r/t the hair of slaves, he was describing a hair they were ashamed to have because they couldn't change the fact that it was unkempt, so hearing it brought pain as it made them relive over and over and over the shame they felt for having hair that was so uncared for.

ETA Another phrase that just came to mind that many black people started to view as an insult is "big lips". Cartoons would be drawn with lips filling the face as if they were caricatures to magnify something true about us but which somewhere along the way we were made to think was a bad thing. The phrase "big lips" isn't an insult but it felt like one when it was uttered because it was said in ways that made it seem like an ugly curse. I remember reading magazines showing how to apply lipstick/lip liner inside the lips so as to make the lips look smaller because big lips were not cool. Fast forward to now and not only are folks paying lots of money to get their lips bigger but lipsticks are even being made with some lip plumping ingredient. So now if someone calls you "big lips" you probably will not take offense because you now realize it is OK and even rather cool to have big lips. Again, a phrase that used to hurt, not because in itself it is hurtful but because of what we thought of the idea of having big lips. We believed that was not a beautiful thing, so we hated being called that.

This deserved a repost.

 

[Nonie]

it's a "prettier" term because it does not have a long standing history of being used to degrade, mistreat and kill people. And what if your hair really is curly. 4b is not the only texture or at least "most authentic" texture a "black" person can have.

Your hair Kurlee is curly. It is not kinky or nappy because it is not tightly coiled. I don't think anyone said 4B is the only texture or "most authentic" texture a black person can have. I think this forum is made of a majority of black people and we've seen lots of different textures, even mixes of textures, represented.

I think what we've been trying to say is those of us with 4B hair are happy to call our hair hair kinky and nappy and tightly coiled and tightly curled. Seems to me like a lot of people with tight coils are OK with the word "nappy". Take a look at the membership on Nappturality and I'm sure you'll find loads of people happy to be nappy. There might be some tightly-coiled-haired folks who aren't OK with the word, but a lot of the people who refer to their hair as nappy know what they mean and it is not derogatory to them.

Ironically, it seems a lot of people who hate the word "nappy" don't even have nappy hair. So I'm not sure why it bothers them so that nappy-haired chicks are happy to be nappy.

 

[Kurlee]

Your hair Kurlee is curly. It is not kinky or nappy because it is not tightly coiled. I don't think anyone said 4B is the only texture or "most authentic" texture a black person can have. I think this forum is made of a majority of black people and we've seen lots of different textures, even mixes of textures, represented.

I think what we've been trying to say is those of us with 4B hair are happy to call our hair hair kinky and nappy and tightly coiled and tightly curled. Seems to me like a lot of people with tight coils are OK with the word "nappy". Take a look at the membership on Nappturality and I'm sure you'll find loads of people happy to be nappy. There might be some tightly-coiled-haired folks who aren't OK with the word, but a lot of the people who refer to their hair as nappy know what they mean and it is not derogatory to them.

Ironically, it seems a lot of people who hate the word "nappy" don't even have nappy hair. So I'm not sure why it bothers them so that nappy-haired chicks are happy to be nappy.

because as "black people" we are a community and if we don't start to collectively change some things and stay on the individualistic tip, we will not make any progress. Yes, it may work for you and yours, but how does it affect the community as a whole? Does it help more than it hinders? That is the question we should be asking. It is a choice what kind of language we use and yes it may not be offensive to us, but it may be offensive to others.

Take the word "gay". I am an offender. I have been saying that for as long as I can remember. Whenever I think something is silly or dumb, I have a knee jerk tendency to lament, "that's gay!". Homosexual people are the farthest thing from my mind when I say it, but it just comes out. It has been brought to my attention that it is offensive, even though it is my intention to offend and I am using the word in a different context. In my little bubble, I'm using the word in a different way, but to others, it has been shown to me that it is offensive. I have two options. I can keep using and tell myself, "who cares, I don't mean it like that", or be mindful that I am not living in a bubble or in isolation and my behaviour and words do permeate, beyond myself after they leave my mouth. Yes, I am individual and can say whatever I want, but I am also apart of the "black community" and on a larger scale, the "human community", and my choices, words, actions can and do affect others and society at the micro level, whether I like it or not and I try my best to be mindful of that.

ETA: why doesn't the history and derogation of the word EVER factor, into your counter arguments. Do you really feel that is not important and that it has lost its meaning to the extent that it is no longer relevant? I can tell you right now, we have not progressed as a society, enough to "forget" and start assigning blame of oppressive terms to the same people who were given these terms of self loathing to digest and internalize, to the point that it became normative.

 

[Kurlee]

That's more reflective of the mentality of the user and the fact that hair can be manipulated than the definitive meaning and usage of the word.


What are you getting at? How is accurately describing one's hair trying to prove something? Is it that the further we move up the numbered hair typing system, the more we cede our right to accurately describe our hair - so a 1-type can say "straight" or "bone straight" but a 4b can't say "extremely tightly coiled", because that would be extra? *looks around*

To the bolded, what world are you living in that "nappy hair" is considered the epitome of beauty? Is it the same world that has people stressing and losing their jobs over their hairstyles? Or people agonizing about "phasing in" their natural hair after landing a new job? Is the same world that characterized Michelle Obama as scary by arming her with a clenched fist and a fro? Is it the same world that most trained stylists don't know what to do with natural hair except perm it or press the hell out of it? The same world that relaxes little girls hair before they can cursive write? The same world that has women stressing (like on this forum), about their men leaving them, cuz they want to go natural?

GIVE ME A BREAK! U and I both know that nappy hair is not considered, desireable, beautiful, professional, etc in this world and a good 95% of the time, "nappy" is used in a negative way. I SEE THE BEAUTY in alllllllllll hair types 1-4b, but I can tell fact from fiction. There is no projection here, because there are things I like about 4b hair and things I don't like. There are things I like about 3 hair and things I don't like. I just think we need to be honest. We can't even come to the general consensus, that in most cases the word nappy is used in an offensive way. OH PLEASE. A child will tell you that. The conversation cannot progress if we can't at least agree on some very basic things. We will talk in circles because while most admit the sky is blue, people want to argue it's red. Some hair types are considered superior than others. Period. Point blank. I don't agree, I don't like it, but it's true. U can call hair nappy all day, but that won't change and I think by keeping the word around and us calling each other it, further stigmatizes the hair and puts a negative label on it. The word has a negative connotation and it has for centuries, saying it now and trying to put a positive spin on it, cannot and will not change that.

What I am getting at is, that there seems to be an undertone of trying to prove acceptance by emphasizing the word, and then subsequently proving see, I'm saying it, I'm calling it and I'm not offended, take that. The thing is, it doesn't come across as authentic. It's kind of like when people use the other N word and say they are "reclaiming it". Both of those words have such a disgusting history, it's just time to bury them, learn from them and keep it moving. But collectively as "black" people we can never agree on anything. We can never unite and decide which direction we are going in and make progress, because everyone is "doing them". Individualistic and backwards. Siggggghhhhhhh

 

[Nonie]

because as "black people" we are a community and if we don't start to collectively change some things and stay on the individualistic tip, we will not make any progress. Yes, it may work for you and yours, but how does it affect the community as a whole? Does it help more than it hinders? That is the question we should be asking. It is a choice what kind of language we use and yes it may not be offensive to us, but it may be offensive to others.

Point taken. But just like the examples I gave of how "shame" can turn something innocent to something that is viewed as bad, I who have never been ashamed nor do I have ancestors who have, cannot view it like you all do. However, as I have stated before, I will not ask you who have issues with the word to use it. But I do ask that you let ME use it of MYSELF. I don't even know if I use the word that much, but when I do use it, I use it with such peace of mind as if it were a punctuation because I do not, nor do all the people I grew up with or who brought me up or whom I've encountered in real life here, in the UK, in Europe or back home in Africa ever expressed issue with it.

There are people who speak Ebonics and who feel that if you don't then you're acting white. So in the name of "unity" should I deny my right to speak well so as to do what feels unnatural to me to prevent this divisiveness?

The word, in my experience, has not hindered AT ALL. I swear to you, that I have never ever ever experienced discrimination here, in Africa, or in Europe because of my nappy hair. So has it hindered me to call my hair nappy, or anyone I know who does? No it has not. If the word is a word of shame, then I can see how paralyzing it can be. But if it isn't, what effect does it have on my life or that of those who are OK with it?

Take the word "gay". I am an offender. I have been saying that for as long as I can remember. Whenever I think something is silly or dumb, I have a knee jerk tendency to lament, "that's gay!". Homosexual people are the farthest thing from my mind when I say it, but it just comes out. It has been brought to my attention that it is offensive, even though it is my intention to offend and I am using the word in a different context. In my little bubble, I'm using the word in a different way, but to others, it has been shown to me that it is offensive. I have two options. I can keep using and tell myself, "who cares, I don't mean it like that", or be mindful that I am not living in a bubble or in isolation and my behaviour and words do permeate, beyond myself after they leave my mouth. Yes, I am individual and can say whatever I want, but I am also apart of the "black community" and on a larger scale, the "human community", and my choices, words, actions can and do affect others and society at the micro level, whether I like it or not and I try my best to be mindful of that.

Again, that is you using the word "gay" out of context and inaccurately. No wonder it is viewed as an insult. If you said "You are so gay" to my friend's gay brother, he'd snap his fingers and say "You better believe it!" If you're just tossing the word around indiscriminately, then were you to be asked what you mean? Your answer would not be "homosexual" but would probably be words that are demeaning, hence your honest confession that you use it to insult. In other words, you have turned the true innocent meaning of the word into something it is not. I'd be interested to know how you came to decide on that meaning? And if you just picked it up from peers, then again we see this copycat behavior without knowing why or what we mean.

BTW, as much as I defend the word nappy, since I know how much shame is attached to it in this country, I'm hesitant to use it when I talk to folks in America. So I am mindful of people's feeling. Just like how I always speak my mother-tongue with my family but when among the company of those who don't speak that tongue, I switch up and speak English. So likewise, I would not use "nappy" among people that don't speak that tongue, but I will not let their issues with the word restrict my own use of it among those who use it and know where I'm coming from.

ETA: why doesn't the history and derogation of the word EVER factor, into your counter arguments. Do you really feel that is not important and that it has lost its meaning to the extent that it is no longer relevant? I can tell you right now, we have not progressed as a society, enough to "forget" and start assigning blame of oppressive terms to the same people who were given these terms of self loathing to digest and internalize, to the point that it became normative.

If I didn't care about the derogatory view of the word and why it is viewed as it is, I don't think the movie 400 Years Without a Comb would have meant as much to me as it does. Up until the day I saw it, I honestly believed that the reason the word "nappy" was bad to y'all was because the white man never said it was pretty. I believed that because he talked of slaves with disgust, about their truly kinky hair, you all internalized that attitude. I saw the same attitude to wide noses, dark skin...and figured that y'all were on a different wavelength where the standard of beauty is dictated for you and you buy into that and so I just shrugged and moved on. Seeing that it went deeper than that, from that movie, explained a lot of things to me and helped me fully understand how "bad hair" also came to be. I was humbled and ashamed of my previous judgment and could see how the way we view things can make them look so differently.

Our people's issues about their hair is clearly still relevant to this day so I'd have to be blind to say it is isn't. I mean, how many times have people posted about someone slapping relaxer on her baby's hair w/o permission. The person that did that clearly has issues with our hair no matter what you call it. Why is it OK for them to feel how they feel and *I* am supposed to somehow not hate my hair but at the same time kinda try to get with their way of thinking to an extent only just be careful to stop short of hating my hair? I'm even having trouble trying to understand what it is I'm being asked to do. Nonie, please try not to use hand gestures when you speak because I find them distracting and annoying. And in an entire world of the black race (coz it doesn't just stop here in America) where some folks don't hate my gestures and some do, I'm supposed to favor those who are offended by my hand movement when I speak and deprive those who appreciated my animated way of talking no matter where I am and whom I'm talking to?

And I do differentiate between descriptive terms and insults. The N word was never a descriptive term. Way back from the moment it entered the English language, it was used as a name for a people that were viewed as worthless and even lower than animals. There are words that were used with contempt to describe us besides the word for hair yet the reason those words never became hurtful is because they didn't describe something we were ashamed of.

I dunno, as you said before, you and I just have to agree to disagree. There are some who are getting my point so I guess my rambling hasn't been in vain. There are also oodles of people who use the word with love. Instead of trying to force this group-think and calling it "unity" why not allow a diversity in thinking and view it as "freedom to be all we can be"? We are such a broad race with so many backgrounds and I think it'd be sad if you asked any of us to disinherit our heritage.

I think if you read the book Hair Story you might understand why it is so hard for me to view "nappy" as a bad thing.

 

[Nonie]

To the bolded, what world are you living in that "nappy hair" is considered the epitome of beauty? Is it the same world that has people stressing and losing their jobs over their hairstyles? Or people agonizing about "phasing in" their natural hair after landing a new job? Is the same world that characterized Michelle Obama as scary by arming her with a clenched fist and a fro? Is it the same world that most trained stylists don't know what to do with natural hair except perm it or press the hell out of it? The same world that relaxes little girls hair before they can cursive write? The same world that has women stressing (like on this forum), about their men leaving them, cuz they want to go natural?

And right here^^^^ (THANK YOU :notworthy ) we get to the point Nappyrina and I have been trying to make and all y'all have been in denial about. It is NOT the word "nappy" but the hair itself that is frowned about in the USA. To me who didn't grow up around this BS, it is beautiful to ME. I grew up in a world where no one lost their job or relaxed babies hair or thought twice about phasing out a relaxer...because of a taboo toward nappy hair. The ladies that we looked up to and who became role models had nappy hair and so it was and has always been very normal to us. I have never worn a towel on my head to pretend it is long swinging hair. I have always wanted long hair so I can make a puff like MizzBrit's: an afro at the top of my head. A dream I have had since I was a child that never hinted at me trying to disown my hair. Even when I relaxed my hair, it was mainly because I believed it would grow my hair long. I understood that no kinks meant easy combing and so no snags or breaks from combing. Until I joined LHCF I always combed my hair dry. I have never even envied mixed chicks with type 3 hair. I have shared how when doing my mixed friend's hair with type 3 hair, I felt sorry for her coz her hair couldn't hold a style and didn't even behave like Barbie's but just flopped all over the place. I was a kind child so rather than say it out and make her feel bad, I just felt sorry for her and wondered if she felt sad about her weird hair. And so you can further GET just what world I come from, coz you seem not to have encountered my sort, my mother came to the US for the first time in 2008 and I was telling her about the obsession with defined curls and type 3 hair on the forum. She guffawed and said, "Aaah wooh weee! (An exclamation of my tribe)...and how much we hate that slimy hair back home?" I personally don't remember hating or caring about it one way or another, so not sure if she means her generation or what, but do you see the difference in perception? While you find curly type 3's beautiful, my mom and I guess whoever else falls in her "we" group don't. But you won't find her spending all day telling curly haired people how to feel about their hair.

Interesting to note that from this post of yours, it isn't that you believe the word really means "unkempt hair" but you really do understand it to refer to and describe that kind of hair that Americans view as ugly.

GIVE ME A BREAK! U and I both know that nappy hair is not considered, desireable, beautiful, professional, etc in this world and a good 95% of the time, "nappy" is used in a negative way. I SEE THE BEAUTY in alllllllllll hair types 1-4b, but I can tell fact from fiction. There is no projection here, because there are things I like about 4b hair and things I don't like. There are things I like about 3 hair and things I don't like. I just think we need to be honest. We can't even come to the general consensus, that in most cases the word nappy is used in an offensive way. OH PLEASE. A child will tell you that. The conversation cannot progress if we can't at least agree on some very basic things. We will talk in circles because while most admit the sky is blue, people want to argue it's red. Some hair types are considered superior than others. Period. Point blank. I don't agree, I don't like it, but it's true. U can call hair nappy all day, but that won't change and I think by keeping the word around and us calling each other it, further stigmatizes the hair and puts a negative label on it. The word has a negative connotation and it has for centuries, saying it now and trying to put a positive spin on it, cannot and will not change that.

Again, I'm so amused that you are now getting to the core of the matter. Not the word, but the hair in question. Yes, this is an echo of the "good hair"/"bad hair" argument. I don't doubt that 400 hundred years of not combing didn't help. Neither did wearing relaxers for so many years that the info on how to style is hard to come by. There's also fear of the unknown that exists in all of us, so it's no wonder! But go to places where it has never been frowned on and you'll be surprised.

I have not denied that nappy is used in a negative way. But "in most cases" depends on who's speaking. Not from my experience definitely, but as we have established we have all had different experiences. Even some born in the US of A have said they never heard it used negatively. So to them too "most cases" doesn't apply.

What I am getting at is, that there seems to be an undertone of trying to prove acceptance by emphasizing the word, and then subsequently proving see, I'm saying it, I'm calling it and I'm not offended, take that. The thing is, it doesn't come across as authentic. It's kind of like when people use the other N word and say they are "reclaiming it". Both of those words have such a disgusting history, it's just time to bury them, learn from them and keep it moving. But collectively as "black" people we can never agree on anything. We can never unite and decide which direction we are going in and make progress, because everyone is "doing them". Individualistic and backwards. Siggggghhhhhhh

This is where it becomes clear why you just don't get us. In your head, you do not view the hair as good, no matter how much you say that you do. I think your true sentiments and that of most came out in your first paragraph. So having that in your head, you cannot fathom how we can actually embrace the hair in the first place. And add onto that, the words that became "insults" due to AA's feelings about the hair back when...and you could just as easily change that bold line to say that our claiming we love our hair doesn't come off as authentic because "...what world are you living in that "nappy hair" is considered the epitome of beauty?" considering we live in a world where "I know that nappy hair is not considered, desireable, beautiful, professional, etc".

You better believe it, there are some people who view things differently from you and who see beauty where you don't. Just like having a big ring in my lower lip stretching it out there is not beautiful to me, it is to a certain culture. You need to seriously step out of America a bit and immerse yourself in other cultures. You might be very surprised to see how differently the rest of the world lives and views things.

 

[CocoGlow]

Ok just as much as someone with 3B/C COILY texture might be offended if their hair was lumped into one big category called: NAPPY/KINKY because it would be inaccurate ... someone (like me) with 4B NAPPY/KINKY texture might be offended if my hair was lumped into one big category called: COILY because it would be inaccurate

It's true that Black people need to be more unified in their LOVE & ACCEPTANCE for the hair that grows from their heads (amongst other things) but we cannot ignore the diversity WITHIN (range of skin colors, features, culture, hair textures, etc) ... by stating & accepting that Black hair has a variety of textures and embracing their uniqueness does not make those who describe their hair as COILY or those who describe their hair as CURLY or those who describe their hair as KINKY or those who describe their hair as NAPPY separatist in any way.

Think about it .. what if in the name of "unity" we all as Black people decided to describe our skin color as CHOCOLATE (yummy) ... now that's a lovely descriptive word, but it only describes ONE of the many shades we come in ... how would those CARAMEL, BUTTERSCOTCH, CINNAMON, etc Black people feel about being left out? If one stated that while they are a part of the community, they are more accurately choosing to describe themselves as ____ and do not want to be lumped into the CHOCOLATE category-Would they be wrong for doing that?

All this to say, I don't expect or desire for EVERY black person to describe their hair as NAPPY/KINKY ... there are plenty of black people w/ COILY hair and I respect their choice to describe their hair as such ... If I feel that the terms NAPPY/KINKY are accurate descriptors for my hair then what is the big deal? No one is trying to force or persuade 3B/C s to call their hair NAPPY!!

 

[CocoGlow]

ALSO

Let's say we all decided to lump Black hair into the COILY category .. given the hatred & shame that still exists outside & within the Black community .. Are we naive enough to assume that when someone sees MY hair they wouldn't say something like: "You've got that tight, unmanageable type of COILY hair ... you can't go natural b/c you don't have those shiny popping coils & waves"

The term NAPPY does not ever have to used .. but the attitude about this texture will remain the same .. there would still be divisiveness and the "good hair/bad hair" issue would still be there .. I think it's naive to believe that once we all embrace the SAFER/PRETTIER terms we will eradicate the ignorance

 

[andromeda]

^^^Thanks for saving me keystrokes, Nonie.

And like you and NappyRina, I also think the underlying problem is the attitude towards the hair. Hence why I sound like a broken record saying "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

To the bolded, what world are you living in that "nappy hair" is considered the epitome of beauty? Is it the same world that has people stressing and losing their jobs over their hairstyles? Or people agonizing about "phasing in" their natural hair after landing a new job? Is the same world that characterized Michelle Obama as scary by arming her with a clenched fist and a fro? Is it the same world that most trained stylists don't know what to do with natural hair except perm it or press the hell out of it? The same world that relaxes little girls hair before they can cursive write? The same world that has women stressing (like on this forum), about their men leaving them, cuz they want to go natural?

Actually the community that I live in is one of the few in America where nappy hair is seen as normal, beautiful and free of defect. Not only do women with 4b hair not feel compelled to chemically treat it, but they wear it unmanipulated, shrunken and their styles tend to showcase a lack of concern for curl definition and poppin' curls and an apathy or embrace of naps. That being said, I'm acutely aware of and sensitive to the fact my community and experience is unique in several respects. I know that nappy hair is not generally the epitome of beauty. My disagreement with your previous post doesn't stem from me being out of touch or thinking wishfully. It stems from the fact that your account of how the word is used is reflective of the very "world" that you've described above. And that "world" isn't universal and the usage you've described isn't definitive.

GIVE ME A BREAK! U and I both know that nappy hair is not considered, desireable, beautiful, professional, etc in this world and a good 95% of the time, "nappy" is used in a negative way. I SEE THE BEAUTY in alllllllllll hair types 1-4b, but I can tell fact from fiction.

"Fiction", huh? :scratchch

There is no projection here, because there are things I like about 4b hair and things I don't like. There are things I like about 3 hair and things I don't like. I just think we need to be honest. We can't even come to the general consensus, that in most cases the word nappy is used in an offensive way. OH PLEASE. A child will tell you that.

You're coming off as a sort of dismissive. And for the record, if you asked me about "nappy" as a child, my answer probably wouldn't support your assumption.

The conversation cannot progress if we can't at least agree on some very basic things. We will talk in circles because while most admit the sky is blue, people want to argue it's red.

I'll ignore the "" and point out that I've already stated a consensus won't be reached because we can't agree on what's "given" and don't necessarily agree on the merits and means of a collectivist vs. individualistic approach.

Some hair types are considered superior than others. Period. Point blank. I don't agree, I don't like it, but it's true. U can call hair nappy all day, but that won't change

So these are the assumptions that you're operating on. Once again, not everyone uses "nappy" reactively, as hard as that might be to believe.

and I think by keeping the word around and us calling each other it, further stigmatizes the hair and puts a negative label on it. The word has a negative connotation and it has for centuries, saying it now and trying to put a positive spin on it, cannot and will not change that.

Valid point. I think you really articulated your argument about collectivist vs. individualistic approach well in your previous post that I thanked. That's a dimension of the discussion that goes beyond the sometimes trite "say you want, don't just don't call me that" line of thinking. I mulled over the collective impact of using the word when I first started the thread but your posts have got me thinking about it more over the last few days.

What I am getting at is, that there seems to be an undertone of trying to prove acceptance by emphasizing the word, and then subsequently proving see, I'm saying it, I'm calling it and I'm not offended, take that. The thing is, it doesn't come across as authentic.

Well, if one is operating in a context where the "4b hair is inferior" attitude is pervasive and insidious, then I could see how it would come off as "inauthentic".

It's kind of like when people use the other N word and say they are "reclaiming it". Both of those words have such a disgusting history, it's just time to bury them, learn from them and keep it moving. But collectively as "black" people we can never agree on anything. We can never unite and decide which direction we are going in and make progress, because everyone is "doing them". Individualistic and backwards. Siggggghhhhhhh

See above.

 

[Kurlee]

And right here^^^^ (THANK YOU :notworthy ) we get to the point Nappyrina and I have been trying to make and all y'all have been in denial about. It is NOT the word "nappy" but the hair itself that is frowned about in the USA.

THIS IS THE POINT:

for example, if someone looks at dark skin and it is the colour of SKIN they have a problem with the skin and call it POOH skinned, should I turn around and call myself, pooh-complected, because I personally have not had a bad experience with the word, even though there is a clear history of that word being used in a distasteful manner ? Refer to Winne the Pooh and everything else with a pooh in it, except the obvious insult that is ATTACHED to the disdain for the dark brown skin.

NAPPY = tangled matted, like sheep hair or rugs, back in the day
i'm sorry, but u could be 4z hair texture, I'm not gonna think calling my hair tangled, matted, resembling sheep hair and rugs is an accurate description. I don't care what your texture is. The word cannot be detached from it's meaning and implications and it is not "freedom" to further oppress yourself by popularizing a derogatory term and then reproducing it, so that it never goes away. I really think this is intellectual laziness.

 

[Kurlee]

This is where it becomes clear why you just don't get us. In your head, you do not view the hair as good, no matter how much you say that you do. I think your true sentiments and that of most came out in your first paragraph. So having that in your head, you cannot fathom how we can actually embrace the hair in the first place. And add onto that, the words that became "insults" due to AA's feelings about the hair back when...and you could just as easily change that bold line to say that our claiming we love our hair doesn't come off as authentic because "...what world are you living in that "nappy hair" is considered the epitome of beauty?" considering we live in a world where "I know that nappy hair is not considered, desireable, beautiful, professional, etc".

Real talk, I'm gonna respond and try my best to not get banned, because I'm getting pissed off that you're telling me that I don't like type 4 hair, when I have it? U do not know me and I like all types of hair. In fact, I actually do not like hair that is too slappy, silky,etc. I just don't find it attractive. Being aware of how black hair is viewed on a whole, without sharing those views, means that I'm open minded, not that I agree. I live in reality, not a fantasy world. I can love my hair allllllllll day long, but at the end of the day, a lot of people don't. Does it make me mad? Yes, but all I can do is keep loving my hair and treating it right. Acting oblivious to how my hair or my skin, or anything else about me, may be perceived in society is naive at best. You need to be aware of these things, so that you can counter them and empower yourself.

I can fathom how you can embrace 4b hair, because I embrace it too, but I'm not naive to the fact that there will be more ooh's and ahhh's over a 3b wash and go, than a 4b one. That is not a reflection of me and how I feel, it is a reflection of what I see on TV, in magazines, on the forum, in the world. I find it very insulting that you are insinuating that I have a problem with 4b hair because I am frank about some of the screwed up attitudes about it. Ya'll are a trip. Keep living in your fantasy world. I'm done with this thread, ya'll are just on another tip and every single response has been a total miscaracterization of myself and my views, so i'm done with it.

And for the record, I'm NOT american.

 

[Nonie]

THIS IS THE POINT:

for example, if someone looks at dark skin and it is the colour of SKIN they have a problem with the skin and call it POOH skinned, should I turn around and call myself, pooh-complected, because I personally have not had a bad experience with the word, even though there is a clear history of that word being used in a distasteful manner ? Refer to Winne the Pooh and everything else with a pooh in it, except the obvious insult that is ATTACHED to the disdain for the dark brown skin.

NAPPY = tangled matted, like sheep hair or rugs, back in the day
i'm sorry, but u could be 4z hair texture, I'm not gonna think calling my hair tangled, matted, resembling sheep hair and rugs is an accurate description. I don't care what your texture is. The word cannot be detached from it's meaning and implications and it is not "freedom" to further oppress yourself by popularizing a derogatory term and then reproducing it, so that it never goes away. I really think this is intellectual laziness.

You so don't get it! I think you better find out which came first, the chicken or the egg.

The hair was not called NAPPY because it was a tangled mess. It was a tangled mess because it was nappy with no appropriate styling tools to make it look better. Had slaves had combs or the tools they used in Africa to groom their nappy hair, trust me "tangled" and "nappy" would never have been used in the same sentence.

Slave masters didn't look at the hair and find an English word that means "tangled mess". They looked at the hair and found an English word that described that look: "naps" = down(y), fibers that can be plucked (combed) or cut, fuzz, looking like sheep's wool ...all words that do not bring to mind anything about a tangled mess.

I chuckle when people act like all sheep look the same with matted looking-like-locks wool. But whose hair doesn't get like that when it isn't combed forever? I don't see anyone grooming the po' sheep. Yes, there are sheep like that. But there are so many breed of sheep in the world with different types of wool.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the oldest breed of sheep in America, and found that there was the Tunis breed. Can't deny that 4B hair can look like that, and not when it's unkempt. We saw Lenny Kravitz put aloe in his hair and shake it to get a look like that. Then there's the oldest breed of sheep called Karakul and its wool's diversity is so much like our hair See the babies? Suffolk sheep are very popular in the US. Since a lot of the white folks were from Britain, I wondered what kind of sheep was reared back there, and I see the Herdwick was one. Again, another breed of sheep that was in 16th and 17th century Britain that might've been in the minds of those that used the word w/r/t sheep is the Soay.

So yes, there are sheep that look like our hair when it isn't combed, and others look like our hair when it is combed (Ever been to a sheep show?). I actually think the description would have been a pretty good one if it was only the sheep reference that was the idea behind the name. Looking at the other origins of "nap"= "downy surface of cloth", again I don't see "tangled mess". I see "Downy"...a word that brings to mind fine soft hair like that on a newborn baby's skin. Again, I don't see any malice intended.

As someone else expressed before, how you all figure nappy = tangled mess boggles the mind of one like me whose hair only EVER looked like a tangled mess when I let a non-type-4-haired stylist do my hair. Otherwise my nappy is always beautifully worn, and definitely a-whole-nother nappy from the one you know.

 

[Nonie]

Real talk, I'm gonna respond and try my best to not get banned, because I'm getting pissed off that you're telling me that I don't like type 4 hair, when I have it? U do not know me and I like all types of hair. In fact, I actually do not like hair that is too slappy, silky,etc. I just don't find it attractive. Being aware of how black hair is viewed on a whole, without sharing those views, means that I'm open minded, not that I agree. I live in reality, not a fantasy world. I can love my hair allllllllll day long, but at the end of the day, a lot of people don't. Does it make me mad? Yes, but all I can do is keep loving my hair and treating it right. Acting oblivious to how my hair or my skin, or anything else about me, may be perceived in society is naive at best. You need to be aware of these things, so that you can counter them and empower yourself.

I can fathom how you can embrace 4b hair, because I embrace it too, but I'm not naive to the fact that there will be more ooh's and ahhh's over a 3b wash and go, than a 4b one. That is not a reflection of me and how I feel, it is a reflection of what I see on TV, in magazines, on the forum, in the world. I find it very insulting that you are insinuating that I have a problem with 4b hair because I am frank about some of the screwed up attitudes about it. Ya'll are a trip. Keep living in your fantasy world. I'm done with this thread, ya'll are just on another tip and every single response has been a total miscaracterization of myself and my views, so i'm done with it.

And for the record, I'm NOT american.

Oh lawd ha'mercy! You yourself just told us not too long ago that your hair's diameter is 1 centimeter. That sounds a lot like type 3 hair and I never said you didn't like type 4 hair. I said you didn't like tightly coiled hair and yours, from your own description doesn't in my book, refer to tightly coiled hair. Why you're getting all worked up, I honestly have no idea.

I think we differ in the fact that YOU worry about what others think about YOUR hair while I couldn't give a rat's arse about what others think of beautiful me and my mane. I don't get my self-esteem from being admired and praised by others because I know deep inside without any pep talk or whatever, that I am all that and a bag of chips. That white folks, majority of Americans, CEO John Smith hates my hair is no skin off my nose. None of them affect how I live or get in the way of what I do, so what in the name of all that is sane does what THEY think have anything to do what what I think, feel, do or say. MY people get me. MY friends get me. Every other person that affects my life in some way (work, health, etc) doesn't even make my hair an issue. So while you're busy listening to negative talk about your hair, I'm busy celebrating my hair and giving it whatever pet name I fancy. Because it is mine and I am entitled to name it any name I feel is beautiful enough to be worthy of it.

Your reaction to it is a reflection of what you see on TV and magazines. So tell me something, light skin and narrow noses and skeletal bodies are glorified in TV and fashion magazines so much more than dark Alek features. So what now? Should we should all shy away from feeling proud of our dark, ebony skin, and wide noses that breathe with ease, and big curvy bodies that are very effeminate, and big juicy lips that kiss with a beautiful softness and start living some other lie? Truly you and I are on totally different planets.

A few posts ago, I suggested to someone who said that she didn't want to use the word "nappy" around her child that it would be better to do so. Not so that the child lives in a cocoon of ignorance, like you seem to think I do, but so that the child can fully understand "nappy" in every sense of the word (even the nonsense) and be able to deal with it. I know Imus said that word with scorn. I know those Youtubers who also call it "slave hair" would never have anything good to say about nappy hair. They still won't change their minds about it if I call it coily. Neither will the magazines. In fact, I can just see a new mockery starting up. "I hear now nappy-heads are calling their hair coily. <insert guffaw here> Like that changes anything about how their hair looks. Haw haw haw!"

Girl, puhlease! I think you're the one living in fantasy thinking that when we all start calling our hair coily, curly, spirally, cutesy, lovey...that all of a sudden it'll become hair that doesn't get a bad rap in magazines and TV, in the society, in the workplace...and mothers will stop slapping relaxers on babies' hairs because suddenly their eyes will see it as we do. They won't. And I'm not living for them or to please them. In my world, the word "nappy" is acceptable. And in my world, your word for your curly hair is also acceptable. In my world of non-fiction, people will do as they please and that includes me and you and that person out there that can't stand the sight of nappy. So I will continue to do me, and I thank God for the freedom and peace of mind I have being all that I am and saying all that I say, and doing all that I do.

 

[Reinventing21]

What if someone w/ 4B hair (my texture) does not feel like COILY best describes my hair? ... Why is COILY a prettier term than NAPPY or KINKY? ... what if my coils are not defined and noticeable? .. would COILY really be an accurate term?

Or is COILY a prettier term b/c of what it represents?: shiny defined coils popping all over the place!! Oh how pretty!

But what about my afro cloud, my cottony dense strands, my coils that are NOT defined?

Why can't we describe hair textures as they truly are: STRAIGHT, WAVY, CURLY, COILY, KINKY/NAPPY (aka so TIGHTLY-COILED it deserves it's own category)
Why can't NAPPY/KINKY be a pretty word that we say w/ pride? Why can't NAPPY/KINKY hair be admired just like COILY hair? It all goes back to this....)



Well, it is not that coily is inherently prettier sounding, but the words kinky and nappy have historically had negative associations. That really is the only difference. As far as some saying that coily is vague. Well coils are coils and straight, wavy, curly and coily are all general terms. Caucasian straight is very different from Asian straight. There are about a thousand to a zillion types of curls and waves and yes coils. Want to add a fifth? Okay. Straight, wavy, curly, coily, and cottony. All general, no historically negative imagery.

In reference to what you said about shiny coils popping all over the place. There is nothing wrong with that kind of hair either and it is a reality and many on this board look for ways to define those natural coils. Everyone tries to maximize the beauty of their hair. Those with straight try to maximize straight and flowing. Those with curly like to defrizz so their curls will pop, those with coils deserve the same. Many type 4s have this kind of hair and don't even know that their hair is capable of it. As far as type 4 that does not coil, the hair is just as pretty, but saying that is cottony conjures up more pleasant imagery.

You ask why can't we say nappy/kinky with pride? Well, look at the response on this board. Obviously there are people who can't get past the ugly imagery historically associated with these words, even LHCFers who know that ALL TYPES OF 4s CAN HAVE BEAUTIFUL HAIR. Again it's not the words themselves, its the history behind the words.

I understand you feel some resentment towards the societal attitude that curls are better, and because hair that coils looks like a version of curly that it too is considered more desirable. But remember that coils, nor curls have NOT always been considered more desirable when we include all races/nationalities. The difference is that now more people are learning how to showcase the beauty of these types hair with better products and techniques. Likewise,when more people see more healthy heads of cottony or z-coiled hair, the more positivity overall we will see just as with all other types of hair.

No one should have to feel bad about their hair. Everyone deserves to showcase the beauty of their hair. Everyone deserves respect with respectful words and associations. All women should be allowed to feel beautiful period.

 

[CocoGlow]

Well, it is not that coily is inherently prettier sounding, but the words kinky and nappy have historically had negative associations. That really is the only difference. As far as some saying that coily is vague. Well coils are coils and straight, wavy, curly and coily are all general terms. Caucasian straight is very different from Asian straight. There are about a thousand to a zillion types of curls and waves and yes coils. Want to add a fifth? Okay. Straight, wavy, curly, coily, and cottony. All general, no historically negative imagery.

In reference to what you said about shiny coils popping all over the place. There is nothing wrong with that kind of hair either and it is a reality and many on this board look for ways to define those natural coils. Everyone tries to maximize the beauty of their hair. Those with straight try to maximize straight and flowing. Those with curly like to defrizz so their curls will pop, those with coils deserve the same. Many type 4s have this kind of hair and don't even know that their hair is capable of it. As far as type 4 that does not coil, the hair is just as pretty, but saying that is cottony conjures up more pleasant imagery.

You ask why can't we say nappy/kinky with pride? Well, look at the response on this board. Obviously there are people who can't get past the ugly imagery historically associated with these words, even LHCFers who know that ALL TYPES OF 4s CAN HAVE BEAUTIFUL HAIR. Again it's not the words themselves, its the history behind the words.

I understand you feel some resentment towards the societal attitude that curls are better, and because hair that coils looks like a version of curly that it too is considered more desirable. But remember that coils, nor curls have NOT always been considered more desirable when we include all races/nationalities. The difference is that now more people are learning how to showcase the beauty of these types hair with better products and techniques. Likewise,when more people see more healthy heads of cottony or z-coiled hair, the more positivity overall we will see just as with all other types of hair.

No one should have to feel bad about their hair. Everyone deserves to showcase the beauty of their hair. Everyone deserves respect with respectful words and associations. All women should be allowed to feel beautiful period.

I hope my statement about hair texture with shiny popping coils did not come across as if I said there was something wrong with it. Of course all textures are beautiful. There is nothing wrong with maximizing the beauty of one's hair and IF your coils or curls or waves are easily defined, that's great, but I must admit there is a recent OBSESSION w/ defining coils-even amongst those w/ MY texture whose teeny tiny coils take tremendous effort & product to clump.

There's nothing wrong w/ styling 4B hair this way as another option but I've come across people who are not content until they can achieve this look to resemble COILY hair. I've even heard them say that they despise their naturally undefined texture and that it does not look good unless their coils are clumped! That's going far beyond trying to maximize the beauty of their own hair-it sounds a lot like resenting their texture and trying to force it to do things that do not come naturally.

I totally agree with most of what you are saying .... COTTONY would be a fairly new term without a negative history BUT whether we describe it as COTTONY, NAPPY or KINKY, it will still take a loooong time before society views what these names represent as beautiful. People will still be on a serious mission to get their COTTONY hair to resemble CURLY or COILY hair ... people will still do the big chop hoping & praying that they don't have COTTONY hair and severely disappointed if they find out that they do

It's not like if people with this texture started calling their hair COTTONY as opposed to NAPPY or KINKY, they will instantly develop a brand new love for their texture...

I am not opposed to calling my hair COTTONY or some other term as long as it's accurate .. I am in no way saying that it must only be called NAPPY/KINKY .... but whatever we individually or collectively choose to call it, we cannot assume that a name change will somehow change the way society in general (especially Black people) feels about 4B texture

I'm all for variety ... COTTONY will gladly be added to my list ... I will say it w/ the same pride that I say NAPPY or KINKY or TIGHTLY-COILED ...

Hopefully no one will be as offended by the term as they already are about the texture it represents

 

[Reinventing21]

I totally agree with most of what you are saying .... COTTONY would be a fairly new term without a negative history BUT whether we describe it as COTTONY, NAPPY or KINKY, it will still take a loooong time before society views what these names represent as beautiful. People will still be on a serious mission to get their COTTONY hair to resemble CURLY or COILY hair ... people will still do the big chop hoping & praying that they don't have COTTONY hair and severely disappointed if they find out that they do

It's not like if people with this texture started calling their hair COTTONY as opposed to NAPPY or KINKY, they will instantly develop a brand new love for their texture...

Refering to the bolded. Yes that is so true. That is why I also said that the more people begin to see beautiful and healthy examples of cottony hair, the more accepting people will become. Look how far we have come on LHCF. Many people used to be afraid of any wave, curl, coil, cotton coming out of the scalp that they would relax every two minutes to the point they really had no idea what their natural hair would look like. Now we have people stretching amazing amounts of time, transitioning etc. Why? Because through this group people got the chance to see what type 4 hair can do. Type 3s have also learned a lot here through shared trials and errors and shining examples of success.

Now type 3s have been showcased, coily type 4s have been showcased and now it is time for cottony 4s to step forward to show the world how beautiful cottony hair can look when it is healthy. There have been a few on here I have seen with amazingly healthy hair all accessorized and various lengths, but we still need to see MORE.

Seeing is believing. It is one thing to intellectually know that all hair can be beautiful, but it is another to convince the masses, and for that people need to see.

In fact we all still have a way to go globally, but it is changing. LHCFers are making a difference so let's continue to work together so that everyone learns how to care for and showcase all the magnificent diversity of type 4 hair.

 

[curlyninjagirl]

LOL. Too through with this thread. Gotta love contraversy. Brings out my inner Black Panther.