Single Christian women are you looking only for black men?

[tmichelle]

Very well said. I guess I don't have a problem with a pastor having his own business outside the church. However, many of these pastors are running "businesses" within the church. Like it's Jesus, Inc.

Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that there is a business side to church, and without organization, a church can't be run efficiently. But it seems like everything these days is for sale, or comes with a price. There are churches that won't marry you or bury you, if you don't tithe in their church. I would like to know the biblical reference that makes this okay, b/c I scratch my head at the thought. I could even see if they charged a fee for use of their building (I mean you are using heat, lights, energy, etc.). But refusing to marry or bury you b/c you don't tithe!? What would Jesus say? What would Jesus do?

I admit that even I've found myself feeling "guilty," like I'm not giving enough financially in my church, even when I am tithing.

But tying this back into the topic (about Black women only looking for Black men), I have another theory on how the church may be "pushing" Black men away. It's only one reason.

After speaking with some more people, it seems some Black men see these pastors as modern day "pimps," especially Eddie Long with his "muscle shirts."

Also, these pastors get up and preach, knowing they have all kinds of dirt in their pasts (and some in their present lives ). Many of these pastors have divorced, have fathered children out of wedlock (even after becoming pastors), are closeted homosexuals, and do all other kinds of things. I'm not preaching against any of the above, but if you were a Black man who didn't grow up with an example of a man, and you go to church looking for a Godly man in your pastor, and you find the same "filth" you find in the streets, wouldn't you not want to stay? Just food for thought (sorry for the run-on sentences, but luckily this isn't English class!)

Still chucklinga about the bolded part.

Seriously though, I too have a problem with this "business" mentality in churches. I see scriptural references to the church as a banquet, family, bride, body etc. but never a business. In fact starting a business and accumulating wealth didn't seem to be a priority of Jesus.

 

[PaperClip]

Still chucklinga about the bolded part.

Seriously though, I too have a problem with this "business" mentality in churches. I see scriptural references to the church as a banquet, family, bride, body etc. but never a business. In fact starting a business and accumulating wealth didn't seem to be a priority of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today (NIV)

Ruth 2:1
And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.

2 Chronicles 1:11
10Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?

11And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: 12Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

Psalm 112:3
Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just


Distinctions of a Christian Entrepreneur

http://ezinearticles.com/?Distinctions-of-a-Christian-Entrepreneur&id=424623

What are the distinctions of a Christian business man or woman? Are they internal or external, or both? What does the Bible have to say about the gifts that are part of being an entrepreneur?

Building a business, whether large or small, puts the believer in the position of making a difference for their family as well as many others. It’s in essence a creative act, reflecting our Creator God, of making something from nothing.

Of course, we don’t really start from nothing. We start with spiritual gifts, aptitudes, preparation, and vision. What is it that God is positioning you to build for His glory? What’s the vision? Any business takes long-term planning and commitment, and the flexibility to take bold calculated risks after counting the cost.

The goal of a Christian entrepreneur is not material gain for the sake of self-indulgent living, or it shouldn’t be. With the spiritual understanding that the Lord could return at any time, our wealth is to be directed for His Kingdom work. Consider how little money it costs to provide a Bible for a believer in persecuted lands, or to provide training for a national pastor or missionary, or even travel costs for a missionary to attend a conference, come home for a much-needed furlough, or get medical attention.

As business owners, we need a heart of service, both to the Lord and to others. Amidst the busy days and years of building your company, look up and look around. Who could use a word of encouragement? Who could use some information that you’ve learned along the way? There is nothing we have that we have not been given. Don’t become myopic in your inward-focus, but rather look to serve and bless others, whether financially, professionally, or by spiritual encouragement.

Christian entrepreneurs are given stewardship of ideas, resources, relationships, and decisions. Each opportunity builds on that which preceded it, each person you meet can be a connection to the next expert you need to learn from, each step leads to a clarified or enlarged vision. Were you thinking too small? It’s a common malady when we rely on our own strength and understanding. Remember Who you serve and seek Him daily for your marching orders!

You too can serve the Lord through the gift of being an entrepreneur. God’s Kingdom work requires dedicated visionaries and financial backing, and all studies show that the highest net worth individuals are those who have built their own business. Commit your work to the Lord, and He will direct your path.

(c) 2007 Becki Maxson
ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Becki Maxson is the founder of KingdomWork.com, a free resource for Christian home based business owners, and is a Marketing Mentor for Advantage Conferences. a Christ-centered business mentoring and training company.
Subscribe to the KingdomWork E-News today and receive your free $29.95 ebook, Slay Your Giant, the ebook by Tim Darnell that's transforming lives around the world!
This article can be reprinted freely online, as long as the entire article and this resource box are included.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Becki_Maxson

 

[Shimmie]

Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today (NIV)

Ruth 2:1
And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.

2 Chronicles 1:11
10Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?

11And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: 12Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

Psalm 112:3
Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just


Distinctions of a Christian Entrepreneur

http://ezinearticles.com/?Distinctions-of-a-Christian-Entrepreneur&id=424623

What are the distinctions of a Christian business man or woman? Are they internal or external, or both? What does the Bible have to say about the gifts that are part of being an entrepreneur?

Building a business, whether large or small, puts the believer in the position of making a difference for their family as well as many others. It’s in essence a creative act, reflecting our Creator God, of making something from nothing.

Of course, we don’t really start from nothing. We start with spiritual gifts, aptitudes, preparation, and vision. What is it that God is positioning you to build for His glory? What’s the vision? Any business takes long-term planning and commitment, and the flexibility to take bold calculated risks after counting the cost.

The goal of a Christian entrepreneur is not material gain for the sake of self-indulgent living, or it shouldn’t be. With the spiritual understanding that the Lord could return at any time, our wealth is to be directed for His Kingdom work. Consider how little money it costs to provide a Bible for a believer in persecuted lands, or to provide training for a national pastor or missionary, or even travel costs for a missionary to attend a conference, come home for a much-needed furlough, or get medical attention.

As business owners, we need a heart of service, both to the Lord and to others. Amidst the busy days and years of building your company, look up and look around. Who could use a word of encouragement? Who could use some information that you’ve learned along the way? There is nothing we have that we have not been given. Don’t become myopic in your inward-focus, but rather look to serve and bless others, whether financially, professionally, or by spiritual encouragement.

Christian entrepreneurs are given stewardship of ideas, resources, relationships, and decisions. Each opportunity builds on that which preceded it, each person you meet can be a connection to the next expert you need to learn from, each step leads to a clarified or enlarged vision. Were you thinking too small? It’s a common malady when we rely on our own strength and understanding. Remember Who you serve and seek Him daily for your marching orders!

You too can serve the Lord through the gift of being an entrepreneur. God’s Kingdom work requires dedicated visionaries and financial backing, and all studies show that the highest net worth individuals are those who have built their own business. Commit your work to the Lord, and He will direct your path.

(c) 2007 Becki Maxson
ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Becki Maxson is the founder of KingdomWork.com, a free resource for Christian home based business owners, and is a Marketing Mentor for Advantage Conferences. a Christ-centered business mentoring and training company.
Subscribe to the KingdomWork E-News today and receive your free $29.95 ebook, Slay Your Giant, the ebook by Tim Darnell that's transforming lives around the world!
This article can be reprinted freely online, as long as the entire article and this resource box are included.
Article Source: [URL="http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Becki_Maxson"]http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Becki_Maxson[/URL]

You know what the saddest words are from Christians when another Christian or family member has a 'need.'

"Wish I had it..."

As Christians we DO need to hold our own. The same we need as a Black race. We (as Blacks) DO need to be able to hold our own to enable us to take care of ourselves, and to be a blessing to those in need.

And this I know we all agree on.

Instead of '...wish I had it", we can say instead..."Here and don't worry about paying it back."

The bolded reminded me of something. 'We' are all that we have to take care of each other. The world won't do it unless there are strings attached; we are restricted to compromise our values.

When we give to each other, we do so without strings. For it is our heart within any gift expecting only to lift the other up.

We do need 'richness' in the Church; we need it in the Black race; we need it to empower us cause 'broke' only makes us a servant to the lender. We need it to teach others how to use it for the right reasons...not hord it up with more than we really need.

Good Post Rehab....

Everyone here has made this a beautiful thread. Especially beautiful is having a man here (BMWSS) who opened our eyes to vital issues with men that we as women could have never realized ourselves.

It all ties in for those Christian woman who desire only Black men. But what good is it to have a Black man if we don't know how to understand him?

We needed to know why our men won't go to church; otherwise how do we win that battle without casualities (the loss of a wonderful marriage). We learned the root of this battle against our men.

BMWSS for this cause, you are allowed to come out of 'time-out'. We now understand about Bishop Eddie's Tai Bo muscles.

Thank you Man of God...

 

[tmichelle]

Okay, are you just ticked with me or something? I never said wealth was bad, I just said Christ didn't make it a priority to gain it. And despite all your scripture references, I still think it should not be a priority of Christians because Christ said:

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Also:
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

And don't forget the rich young ruler:

21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and (U)sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have (V)treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today (NIV)

Ruth 2:1
And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.

2 Chronicles 1:11
10Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people: for who can judge this thy people, that is so great?

11And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king: 12Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like.

Psalm 112:3
Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just


Distinctions of a Christian Entrepreneur

http://ezinearticles.com/?Distinctions-of-a-Christian-Entrepreneur&id=424623

What are the distinctions of a Christian business man or woman? Are they internal or external, or both? What does the Bible have to say about the gifts that are part of being an entrepreneur?

Building a business, whether large or small, puts the believer in the position of making a difference for their family as well as many others. It’s in essence a creative act, reflecting our Creator God, of making something from nothing.

Of course, we don’t really start from nothing. We start with spiritual gifts, aptitudes, preparation, and vision. What is it that God is positioning you to build for His glory? What’s the vision? Any business takes long-term planning and commitment, and the flexibility to take bold calculated risks after counting the cost.

The goal of a Christian entrepreneur is not material gain for the sake of self-indulgent living, or it shouldn’t be. With the spiritual understanding that the Lord could return at any time, our wealth is to be directed for His Kingdom work. Consider how little money it costs to provide a Bible for a believer in persecuted lands, or to provide training for a national pastor or missionary, or even travel costs for a missionary to attend a conference, come home for a much-needed furlough, or get medical attention.

As business owners, we need a heart of service, both to the Lord and to others. Amidst the busy days and years of building your company, look up and look around. Who could use a word of encouragement? Who could use some information that you’ve learned along the way? There is nothing we have that we have not been given. Don’t become myopic in your inward-focus, but rather look to serve and bless others, whether financially, professionally, or by spiritual encouragement.

Christian entrepreneurs are given stewardship of ideas, resources, relationships, and decisions. Each opportunity builds on that which preceded it, each person you meet can be a connection to the next expert you need to learn from, each step leads to a clarified or enlarged vision. Were you thinking too small? It’s a common malady when we rely on our own strength and understanding. Remember Who you serve and seek Him daily for your marching orders!

You too can serve the Lord through the gift of being an entrepreneur. God’s Kingdom work requires dedicated visionaries and financial backing, and all studies show that the highest net worth individuals are those who have built their own business. Commit your work to the Lord, and He will direct your path.

(c) 2007 Becki Maxson
ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Becki Maxson is the founder of KingdomWork.com, a free resource for Christian home based business owners, and is a Marketing Mentor for Advantage Conferences. a Christ-centered business mentoring and training company.
Subscribe to the KingdomWork E-News today and receive your free $29.95 ebook, Slay Your Giant, the ebook by Tim Darnell that's transforming lives around the world!
This article can be reprinted freely online, as long as the entire article and this resource box are included.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Becki_Maxson

 

[PaperClip]

Okay, are you just ticked with me or something? I never said wealth was bad, I just said Christ didn't make it a priority to gain it. And despite all your scripture references, I still think it should not be a priority of Christians because Christ said:

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Also:
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

And don't forget the rich young ruler:

21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and (U)sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have (V)treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

No. I am not ticked at you at all. It matters to me that there is a comprehensive perspective presented. A comprehensive perspective is something we ALL can contribute to.... And I'm raising questions to provoke thought and to help remove the stigma that church folk have to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy.

How does one actually measure or discern the level of priority that one gives to the pursuit of wealth? Again, what is excessive to one might be considered poverty to another. Who gets to decide what's enough? Who gets to decide what's enough for you? Who gets to decide what's enough for me? This is what it sounds like when people say that the pastor has "too much". Too much according to whose standards?

I wholeheartedly concur with the scriptures that you stated concerning earthly treasures. Let's revisit the story of rich young ruler: the lesson in that wasn't that he had to take a vow of poverty to follow Christ. The lesson was that he had to LOVE CHRIST more than he loved his money and that rich ruler made the unfortunate choice to put his faith in his money instead of Christ. There are people who have read about this rich young ruler and said "I am not going to put ANYTHING (including money, marriage, children, etc.) over Christ." And through their faith and obedience, they were/are fulfilled...and part of that fulfillment was/is that they got some money...however much (or little) they want.

But let's consider this: Jesus wasn't poor by any means. He wasn't struggling on an earthly realm. He ALWAYS had provision. He didn't have to make a priority to gain wealth because HE ALREADY HAD IT! And I'm talking on the natural/earthly realm. He always had food, clothing, shelter, reliable transportation. He even had a grave because to lay down in for a couple of days.

 

[BlkManWithSomeSense]

No. I am not ticked at you at all. It matters to me that there is a comprehensive perspective presented. A comprehensive perspective is something we ALL can contribute to.... And I'm raising questions to provoke thought and to help remove the stigma that church folk have to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy.

How does one actually measure or discern the level of priority that one gives to the pursuit of wealth? Again, what is excessive to one might be considered poverty to another. Who gets to decide what's enough? Who gets to decide what's enough for you? Who gets to decide what's enough for me? This is what it sounds like when people say that the pastor has "too much". Too much according to whose standards?

I wholeheartedly concur with the scriptures that you stated concerning earthly treasures. Let's revisit the story of rich young ruler: the lesson in that wasn't that he had to take a vow of poverty to follow Christ. The lesson was that he had to LOVE CHRIST more than he loved his money and that rich ruler made the unfortunate choice to put his faith in his money instead of Christ. There are people who have read about this rich young ruler and said "I am not going to put ANYTHING (including money, marriage, children, etc.) over Christ." And through their faith and obedience, they were/are fulfilled...and part of that fulfillment was/is that they got some money...however much (or little) they want.

But let's consider this: Jesus wasn't poor by any means. He wasn't struggling on an earthly realm. He ALWAYS had provision. He didn't have to make a priority to gain wealth because HE ALREADY HAD IT! And I'm talking on the natural/earthly realm. He always had food, clothing, shelter, reliable transportation. He even had a grave because to lay down in for a couple of days.

I dont feel leadership needs to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy... but how about maintaining the tradition of modesty. How do we turn our back on a legacy of teachings about images and humility? Let's use the greatest example left for us. Jesus never lived above the means of his disciples and today's ministers should not live so lavishly above the congregation they lead. Sometimes the lifestyle which claim God has blessed them with is in reality a by product of what happens when all of the money stays at the top and the wealth that God blesses the church with is not properly distributed.

This issue isnt about scripture as it is more about examples followed and intents understood. We look to our pastors to set the standard and example and if they are pushing a gospel of prosperity and financial gain then what do you think it's people will do? The impact when leadership changes it's course of teaching creates a ripple effect. A pastor is the LAST person one would expect to embrace such a wordly doctrine. Perhaps that is why so many of us are silent on this issue because of the disbelief that a Man of God would truly intoxicate himself with this stance.

I dont think all pastors of mega churchs are corrupt. I just think mega churches as an idea is a bad one that leaves a worst effect on the congregation. It unduly creates a detachment that is not recognized for many years later. Yes people are receiving great teachings and annointed blessings but the bond of commuinity takes a HUGE hit. 25,000+ members are not a closely knit group. I wasnt going to quote scripture but I changed my mind at the last minute.

"No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon . The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, 'You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight"
Luke 16:13-15

Our CHILDREN are watching how we handle this. WE are setting the example for them. If we take a passive attitude towards this, what message will they be left with? The Word of God must be clear and without conflict. The message and how it's carried out

Oh by the way , did I mention how much I appreciate all the responses on this thread? 68 responses and over a 1,000 'hits' says that this must be something people are at least thinking about. Kudos to everyone.

 

[PaperClip]

I dont feel leadership needs to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy... but how about maintaining the tradition of modesty. How do we turn our back on a legacy of teachings about images and humility? Let's use the greatest example left for us. Jesus never lived above the means of his disciples and today's ministers should not live so lavishly above the congregation they lead. Sometimes the lifestyle which claim God has blessed them with is in reality a by product of what happens when all of the money stays at the top and the wealth that God blesses the church with is not properly distributed.

This issue isnt about scripture as it is more about examples followed and intents understood. We look to our pastors to set the standard and example and if they are pushing a gospel of prosperity and financial gain then what do you think it's people will do? The impact when leadership changes it's course of teaching creates a ripple effect. A pastor is the LAST person one would expect to embrace such a wordly doctrine. Perhaps that is why so many of us are silent on this issue because of the disbelief that a Man of God would truly intoxicate himself with this stance.

I dont think all pastors of mega churchs are corrupt. I just think mega churches as an idea is a bad one that leaves a worst effect on the congregation. It unduly creates a detachment that is not recognized for many years later. Yes people are receiving great teachings and annointed blessings but the bond of commuinity takes a HUGE hit. 25,000+ members are not a closely knit group. I wasnt going to quote scripture but I changed my mind at the last minute.

"No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon . The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, 'You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight"
Luke 16:13-15

Our CHILDREN are watching how we handle this. WE are setting the example for them. If we take a passive attitude towards this, what message will they be left with? The Word of God must be clear and without conflict. The message and how it's carried out

Oh by the way , did I mention how much I appreciate all the responses on this thread? 68 responses and over a 1,000 'hits' says that this must be something people are at least thinking about. Kudos to everyone.

I concur with the thought-provoking conversation.

Tradition of modesty: again, how is this modesty determined? What's the criteria? What's the barometer?

How can we determine how Jesus lived in comparison to his disciples without knowing how the disciples lived, before AND after they decided to follow Jesus? Matthew was a tax collector, yes? He wasn't poor before he met Jesus and which would give weight to the notion that he wasn't poor AFTER he became a disciple of Jesus. Peter was a fisherman, yes? He wasn't poor before he met Jesus and again, he couldn't have been (that) poor after he met Jesus, either. Just like Jesus, the disciples has everything they needed to do what they needed to do.

Where's the personal accountability in all of this that it's the pastor's fault OR credit for the congregation's poverty or wealth (outside of the spiritual components)? The pastor can do his job: teach the word, live the life, be an example of being a good steward, even live "modestly", but the people still don't change. Again, I ask: when is enough enough?

You mentioned about all the money "staying at the top", as if the church is a corporation with dividends and profit-sharing. It's the PEOPLE who collectively come with their varying means to give. This may mean that everybody isn't giving the same amount, but they are giving what they can according to what they have. I submit to you that everyone isn't doing their EQUITABLE (not equal) share. For example, the tithe is 10 PERCENT, not everybody giving $10. Because $10 to one person is a drop in the bucket; $10 to another person could be the difference between life or death, if you will.

What's interesting is that today's megachurch could be considered the Jewish equivalent of the synagogue (both biblical and today). I mean, didn't Solomon lay out a synagogue? Even when they were building the temple, the PEOPLE brought the materials to take care of the house of God and the leader of that house.

I concur that clearly, some of this has been taken to the extreme. Yes, our children are watching and they are also watching rappers get all the bling bling for a job that doesn't mean much in comparison to the pastors and ministers who are operating in integrity and winning souls for the Lord and there's not some material as well as spiritual rewards for that? I think not. The example for our children should be that life in Christ has both spiritual AND natural rewards and that we don't have to wait to get to heaven to walk on streets of gold. I mean, if we're putting our "dirty" glorified feet on a substance that's of so much value on planet Earth, come on now, ain't nothing wrong with having some of it, especially when we put Him first!

 

[tmichelle]

No. I am not ticked at you at all. It matters to me that there is a comprehensive perspective presented. A comprehensive perspective is something we ALL can contribute to.... And I'm raising questions to provoke thought and to help remove the stigma that church folk have to take a vow of poverty to be considered holy.

How does one actually measure or discern the level of priority that one gives to the pursuit of wealth? Again, what is excessive to one might be considered poverty to another. Who gets to decide what's enough? Who gets to decide what's enough for you? Who gets to decide what's enough for me? This is what it sounds like when people say that the pastor has "too much". Too much according to whose standards?

I wholeheartedly concur with the scriptures that you stated concerning earthly treasures. Let's revisit the story of rich young ruler: the lesson in that wasn't that he had to take a vow of poverty to follow Christ. The lesson was that he had to LOVE CHRIST more than he loved his money and that rich ruler made the unfortunate choice to put his faith in his money instead of Christ. There are people who have read about this rich young ruler and said "I am not going to put ANYTHING (including money, marriage, children, etc.) over Christ." And through their faith and obedience, they were/are fulfilled...and part of that fulfillment was/is that they got some money...however much (or little) they want.

But let's consider this: Jesus wasn't poor by any means. He wasn't struggling on an earthly realm. He ALWAYS had provision. He didn't have to make a priority to gain wealth because HE ALREADY HAD IT! And I'm talking on the natural/earthly realm. He always had food, clothing, shelter, reliable transportation. He even had a grave because to lay down in for a couple of days.

I don't think it matters at all about one's wealth, it is the desire to gain it (at the cost of others whether you consider yourself a pastor or not) that becomes the problem. Here is how one determines who has too much in answer to your question I bolded. God is, check out this text at the end of Heb. 11, the chapter on faith. People seem to overlook this quite frequently. After the writer discusses the wonderful things people saw and enjoyed because of their faith, he also wrote this:


31By faith (BN)Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of (BO)Gideon, (BP)Barak, (BQ)Samson, (BR)Jephthah, of (BS)David and (BT)Samuel and the prophets,
33who by faith (BU)conquered kingdoms, (BV)performed acts of righteousness, (BW)obtained promises, (BX)shut the mouths of lions,
34(BY)quenched the power of fire, (BZ)escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, (CA)became mighty in war, (CB)put foreign armies to flight.
35(CC)Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also (CD)chains and imprisonment.
37They were (CE)stoned, they were (CF)sawn in two, [a]they were tempted, they were (CG)put to death with the sword; they went about (CH)in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, (CI)ill-treated
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), (CJ)wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having (CK)gained approval through their faith, (CL)did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided (CM)something better for us, so that (CN)apart from us they would not be made perfect.

So it is not okay to gain $$$ if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways. If all the pastors like to do is show the example of how you need to give him money, and get some for yourself, people will miss that they are to put God first and that God may not intend them to have money here on this earth.

 

[tmichelle]

I concur with the thought-provoking conversation.

Tradition of modesty: again, how is this modesty determined? What's the criteria? What's the barometer?

How can we determine how Jesus lived in comparison to his disciples without knowing how the disciples lived, before AND after they decided to follow Jesus? Matthew was a tax collector, yes? He wasn't poor before he met Jesus and which would give weight to the notion that he wasn't poor AFTER he became a disciple of Jesus. Peter was a fisherman, yes? He wasn't poor before he met Jesus and again, he couldn't have been (that) poor after he met Jesus, either. Just like Jesus, the disciples has everything they needed to do what they needed to do.

Where's the personal accountability in all of this that it's the pastor's fault OR credit for the congregation's poverty or wealth (outside of the spiritual components)? The pastor can do his job: teach the word, live the life, be an example of being a good steward, even live "modestly", but the people still don't change. Again, I ask: when is enough enough?

You mentioned about all the money "staying at the top", as if the church is a corporation with dividends and profit-sharing. It's the PEOPLE who collectively come with their varying means to give. This may mean that everybody isn't giving the same amount, but they are giving what they can according to what they have. I submit to you that everyone isn't doing their EQUITABLE (not equal) share. For example, the tithe is 10 PERCENT, not everybody giving $10. Because $10 to one person is a drop in the bucket; $10 to another person could be the difference between life or death, if you will.

What's interesting is that today's megachurch could be considered the Jewish equivalent of the synagogue (both biblical and today). I mean, didn't Solomon lay out a synagogue? Even when they were building the temple, the PEOPLE brought the materials to take care of the house of God and the leader of that house.

I concur that clearly, some of this has been taken to the extreme. Yes, our children are watching and they are also watching rappers get all the bling bling for a job that doesn't mean much in comparison to the pastors and ministers who are operating in integrity and winning souls for the Lord and there's not some material as well as spiritual rewards for that? I think not. The example for our children should be that life in Christ has both spiritual AND natural rewards and that we don't have to wait to get to heaven to walk on streets of gold. I mean, if we're putting our "dirty" glorified feet on a substance that's of so much value on planet Earth, come on now, ain't nothing wrong with having some of it, especially when we put Him first!

The highlighted portion is not accurate. Today's mega church should not be considered the equivalent of Solomon's temple (Solomon built a temple, the synagogues came later most likely during the ~400 years between the Old Testment and New). Both the tabernacle and the temple that Solomon built were a dwelling place of God. Today, the buildings are not holy at all, it is our hearts. God dwells within us through his Holy Spirit. The early church met in public places, peoples homes, at the beach, etc. where we meet is not of consequence. Giving to God to have crystal chandeliers in the building is not the same as having a pure and undivided heart. That is the pearl of great worth.

 

[PaperClip]

I don't think it matters at all about one's wealth, it is the desire to gain it (at the cost of others whether you consider yourself a pastor or not) that becomes the problem. Here is how one determines who has too much in answer to your question I bolded. God is, check out this text at the end of Heb. 11, the chapter on faith. People seem to overlook this quite frequently. After the writer discusses the wonderful things people saw and enjoyed because of their faith, he also wrote this:


31By faith (BN)Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of (BO)Gideon, (BP)Barak, (BQ)Samson, (BR)Jephthah, of (BS)David and (BT)Samuel and the prophets,
33who by faith (BU)conquered kingdoms, (BV)performed acts of righteousness, (BW)obtained promises, (BX)shut the mouths of lions,
34(BY)quenched the power of fire, (BZ)escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, (CA)became mighty in war, (CB)put foreign armies to flight.
35(CC)Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also (CD)chains and imprisonment.
37They were (CE)stoned, they were (CF)sawn in two, [a]they were tempted, they were (CG)put to death with the sword; they went about (CH)in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, (CI)ill-treated
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), (CJ)wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having (CK)gained approval through their faith, (CL)did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided (CM)something better for us, so that (CN)apart from us they would not be made perfect.

So it is not okay to gain $$$ if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways. If all the pastors like to do is show the example of how you need to give him money, and get some for yourself, people will miss that they are to put God first and that God may not intend them to have money here on this earth.

Please forgive me because it is not clear to me how you are connecting such sufferings to poverty or little money. I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him. The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey.

It is not clear as to how this addresses their financial situation. But think about it: Rahab had to have had some money in order to have accommodations big enough and guarded enough to hide the spies. She couldn't have hid the spies in a tent.

And with regard to the comparison of megachurches and synagogues: if you consider it in either way: spiritually or naturally, the underlying point is that ALL the people share in the collective responsibility of tending to the house of the Lord. That's why it matters who a person submits to with regard to church membership. If there are no lights, heat, gas, pews for the church, then it's probably not wise for the pastor to direct the funds to buy a crystal chandelier. And if one is sitting in a church where that is going on (and the person DOESN'T like that), then they should seek the Lord about going to another church. But how about this: the Lord may tell that person to STAY and PRAY for that pastor. Now that takes faith.

 

[tmichelle]

Please forgive me because it is not clear to me how you are connecting such sufferings to poverty or little money. I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him. The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey.

It is not clear as to how this addresses their financial situation. But think about it: Rahab had to have had some money in order to have accommodations big enough and guarded enough to hide the spies. She couldn't have hid the spies in a tent.

And with regard to the comparison of megachurches and synagogues: if you consider it in either way: spiritually or naturally, the underlying point is that ALL the people share in the collective responsibility of tending to the house of the Lord. That's why it matters who a person submits to with regard to church membership. If there are no lights, heat, gas, pews for the church, then it's probably not wise for the pastor to direct the funds to buy a crystal chandelier. And if one is sitting in a church where that is going on (and the person DOESN'T like that), then they should seek the Lord about going to another church. But how about this: the Lord may tell that person to STAY and PRAY for that pastor. Now that takes faith.

37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated

Destitute means poor.

The Bible doesn't disclose Rahab's financial state, in fact that is not the point of her story, if it were then God would have told us. No need to try and turn Rahab into a rich woman to make a point because there are MANY other people of God who were rich, take King Solomon. My point has been all along that being rich, well-off, well to do or anything shouldn't be your priority, goal, aim or anything. If it is God's desire for you to be so then that is fine, but our desire should be only what God's will is for us.

Take King Solomon's story II Chron. 1:
8Solomon said to God, "You have dealt with my father David with great lovingkindness, and have made me king in his place.

9"Now, O LORD God, Your promise to my father David is fulfilled, for You have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth.
10"Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people, for who can rule this great people of Yours?"
11God said to Solomon, "Because you had this in mind, and did not ask for riches, wealth or honor, or the life of those who hate you, nor have you even asked for long life, but you have asked for yourself wisdom and knowledge that you may rule My people over whom I have made you king, 12wisdom and knowledge have been granted to you. And I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings who were before you has possessed nor those who will come after you."

When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

Also, the building a church meets in is not a "house of the Lord", our hearts are. Remeber Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love". Many get this confused all the time and put the emphasis on things, (ie, keeping a nice facility) and not on keeping themselves pure and uncorrupted by the world.

You wrote, "I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him. The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey."

I found the bolded part interesting but I'd like to mention the unbolded part of this statement first.

38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

You are absolutely correct in a counter intuitive way. These people of faith did not receive what was promised (all the good things God promised). But God did not lie, their journey was not over, it continued on through death into life with Him. THAT is His promise, not earthly riches etc., but the promised land in heaven which Christ is preparing for those who love him. So yes, you could say that it was a "blip" in or "part" of their journey but not their entire journey. Many people preach otherwise these days, they preach that we can enjoy the promised land here on earth. That is NOT Biblical.

Now to the first part of your statement, you wrote, "I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him". I found that very interesting. If these people were of faith (giving their lives to God to the extent that He wrote about them in His book), then how are they not representing God? God who must allow all things to happen for them to happen, (ex. Satan tempting Job) allowed these people to go through the horrible situations they went through. They in turn gave their lives to God out of faith (much like Christ gave his life to God for the sake of our lives). By their faith they represented who God is to the world, despite the fact that the world wasn't worthy of them. They did what God intended them to do in the situations God allowed them to be in, therefore they represented God to the world.

 

[PaperClip]

37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated

Destitute means poor.

The Bible doesn't disclose Rahab's financial state, in fact that is not the point of her story, if it were then God would have told us. No need to try and turn Rahab into a rich woman to make a point because there are MANY other people of God who were rich, take King Solomon. My point has been all along that being rich, well-off, well to do or anything shouldn't be your priority, goal, aim or anything. If it is God's desire for you to be so then that is fine, but our desire should be only what God's will is for us.

Take King Solomon's story II Chron. 1:
8Solomon said to God, "You have dealt with my father David with great lovingkindness, and have made me king in his place.

9"Now, O LORD God, Your promise to my father David is fulfilled, for You have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth.
10"Give me now wisdom and knowledge, that I may go out and come in before this people, for who can rule this great people of Yours?"
11God said to Solomon, "Because you had this in mind, and did not ask for riches, wealth or honor, or the life of those who hate you, nor have you even asked for long life, but you have asked for yourself wisdom and knowledge that you may rule My people over whom I have made you king, 12wisdom and knowledge have been granted to you. And I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings who were before you has possessed nor those who will come after you."

When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

Also, the building a church meets in is not a "house of the Lord", our hearts are. Remeber Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love". Many get this confused all the time and put the emphasis on things, (ie, keeping a nice facility) and not on keeping themselves pure and uncorrupted by the world.

You wrote, "I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him. The aforementioned were situations in these folks' lives, where they had a choice to have faith and obey. Blips, if you will, as PART of their journey, but not the entire journey."

I found the bolded part interesting but I'd like to mention the unbolded part of this statement first.

38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

You are absolutely correct in a counter intuitive way. These people of faith did not receive what was promised (all the good things God promised). But God did not lie, their journey was not over, it continued on through death into life with Him. THAT is His promise, not earthly riches etc., but the promised land in heaven which Christ is preparing for those who love him. So yes, you could say that it was a "blip" in or "part" of their journey but not their entire journey. Many people preach otherwise these days, they preach that we can enjoy the promised land here on earth. That is NOT Biblical.

Now to the first part of your statement, you wrote, "I certainly would not look at these situations as a way that the Lord wanted to represent Him". I found that very interesting. If these people were of faith (giving their lives to God to the extent that He wrote about them in His book), then how are they not representing God? God who must allow all things to happen for them to happen, (ex. Satan tempting Job) allowed these people to go through the horrible situations they went through. They in turn gave their lives to God out of faith (much like Christ gave his life to God for the sake of our lives). By their faith they represented who God is to the world, despite the fact that the world wasn't worthy of them. They did what God intended them to do in the situations God allowed them to be in, therefore they represented God to the world.

So that we're on the same page, I thought that it would be helpful to be clear about the definition of "poor": lacking material possessions b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty; 2 a : less than adequate : [SIZE=-1]MEAGER[/SIZE] b : small in worth (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).

Ok... destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way. And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment".

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today.

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that.

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
You said: When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

The pastor should be asking the Lord for wisdom for him (or her)self to do the job meaning that request is between the Lord and that pastor. Of course the pastor needs that wisdom to do the job. More importantly, that pastor needs integrity. When you say the pastors and leaders are asking for more money than they need, how do you know how much money is needed to run the ministry? Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings: church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world.

 

[tmichelle]

So that we're on the same page, I thought that it would be helpful to be clear about the definition of "poor": lacking material possessions b : of, relating to, or characterized by poverty; 2 a : less than adequate : [SIZE=-1]MEAGER[/SIZE] b : small in worth (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).

Ok... destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way. And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment".

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today.

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that.

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
You said: When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

The pastor should be asking the Lord for wisdom for him (or her)self to do the job meaning that request is between the Lord and that pastor. Of course the pastor needs that wisdom to do the job. More importantly, that pastor needs integrity. When you say the pastors and leaders are asking for more money than they need, how do you know how much money is needed to run the ministry? Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings: church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world.

Ok... destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way. Very true
And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? I didn't say that. Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. Yes Rahab was a woman of faith, that is what the Hebrew writer, that I quoted was saying. So why does it matter if she was rich or not? What is your point?

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. Blessings and favor, but not necessarily wealth. I already showed you scripture where people of faith died destitute.

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

You said: When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

The pastor should be asking the Lord for wisdom for him (or her)self to do the job meaning that request is between the Lord and that pastor. Of course the pastor needs that wisdom to do the job. More importantly, that pastor needs integrity. When you say the pastors and leaders are asking for more money than they need, how do you know how much money is needed to run the ministry? (Christ didn't need a late model Jaguar to spread the gospel, while his flock took the bus in fact he humbled himself to death on the cross). Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are): church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts.

 

[PaperClip]

Ok... destitute was one form of persecution, but everyone didn't suffer that way. Very true


And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? I didn't say that.

I got this implication from this line "if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways" as you said in Post #70.

Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).
Riches can come with the favor of the Lord, if the person chooses to accept them as part of the reward for the Lord's favor and blessing.

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. Yes Rahab was a woman of faith, that is what the Hebrew writer, that I quoted was saying. So why does it matter if she was rich or not? What is your point?
My point with regard to mentioning Rahab was in response to your point about Rahab being chosen to represent God through persecution (which I noted wasn't clear to me and how that connected with finances) but to just point out that she had to have some means...to counteract the idea the believers have to be represented as financially destitute in order to be effective in their God-given purpose. Rahab is one of several example of the opposite of this.

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. Blessings and favor, but not necessarily wealth. I already showed you scripture where people of faith died destitute. (Please refer to Psalm 112)

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem.


You said: When pastors and leaders ASK for more money than they need from the flock as opposed to asking only for wisdom and knowledge to lead "this great people of yours", they are not pleasing to the Lord.

The pastor should be asking the Lord for wisdom for him (or her)self to do the job meaning that request is between the Lord and that pastor. Of course the pastor needs that wisdom to do the job. More importantly, that pastor needs integrity. When you say the pastors and leaders are asking for more money than they need, how do you know how much money is needed to run the ministry? (Christ didn't need a late model Jaguar to spread the gospel, while his flock took the bus in fact he humbled himself to death on the cross). (See my answer above).

Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are): church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. I think my response to this is already noted in BLACK this multi-colored paragraph.

Answers noted above in BLUE.

 

[tmichelle]

And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? I didn't say that.

I got this implication from this line "if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways" as you said in Post #70. Yes, God does choose His repsentations (even though we try to usurp him). God is clear on giving to the poor. Because God allows you to be poor and still be his representative, doesn't mean that others no longer have an obligation to help the poor. In fact often times this will be a test to others to see if they are willing to give (after all some have entertained angels without knowing it).

Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).
Riches can come with the favor of the Lord, if the person chooses to accept them as part of the reward for the Lord's favor and blessing. Yes, riches can come, but as I've stated before Christ makes it clear that it SHOULD NOT be out priority. Seeking God and His kingdom should be our priority.

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. Yes Rahab was a woman of faith, that is what the Hebrew writer, that I quoted was saying. So why does it matter if she was rich or not? What is your point?
My point with regard to mentioning Rahab was in response to your point about Rahab being chosen to represent God through persecution (which I noted wasn't clear to me and how that connected with finances) That makes sense. I was trying to put the people who were suffering in the correct context by quoting what the passage was about. The bolded portion of the scripture in Hebrews 11 starts the discourse on the persecuted people of faith. but to just point out that she had to have some means...to counteract the idea the believers have to be represented as financially destitute in order to be effective in their God-given purpose. Rahab is one of several example of the opposite of this.

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. Blessings and favor, but not necessarily wealth. I already showed you scripture where people of faith died destitute. (Please refer to Psalm 112)Psalms 112 does not negate the people of faith and prophets who died in proverty or hid in caves, etc. Psalms 112 does not say that they weren't people of faith.

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem. You CAN have money now and riches in heaven, but it is not a promise of God, nor should it be a priority of ours. Our only priority should be to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength.COLOR]



Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are): church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. I think my response to this is already noted in BLACK this multi-colored paragraph. Yes, it is becoming a rainbow of colors, but your response is not clear to me.

 

[PaperClip]

And if such destitution might have been one way that the Lord assigned to someone as a way to "represent" him, then who are we to try to "correct" it? Who are we to try to override the Lord's assignment by "giving" to those folk with that assignment, as you say? I didn't say that.

I got this implication from this line "if God has chosen you to represent him in one of these ways" as you said in Post #70. Yes, God does choose His repsentations (even though we try to usurp him). God is clear on giving to the poor. Because God allows you to be poor and still be his representative, doesn't mean that others no longer have an obligation to help the poor. In fact often times this will be a test to others to see if they are willing to give (after all some have entertained angels without knowing it).

Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).
Riches can come with the favor of the Lord, if the person chooses to accept them as part of the reward for the Lord's favor and blessing. Yes, riches can come, but as I've stated before Christ makes it clear that it SHOULD NOT be out priority. Seeking God and His kingdom should be our priority.
I have not said that pursuing riches should be priority. What I did inquire about is WHO DECIDES WHAT'S TOO MUCH for someone else? My pursuit of ANYTHING will not look like your pursuit and no one really has the place outside of the Lord to tell another person that the intensity of their pursuit is too strong or too weak. Notice I said the INTENSITY of the pursuit, not the CONTENT of that pursuit.

I did not say Rahab was rich, but clearly she was not one of the destitute ones. I mean, in her job as a harlot, she made some money. It is what it is, yes? And now that I continue to think about that story, again, Rahab was living her life, not necessarily thinking about the Lord until this opportunity to act on faith and obey came upon her. She put her faith in the Lord, risked her life for it, and we're talking about her today. Yes Rahab was a woman of faith, that is what the Hebrew writer, that I quoted was saying. So why does it matter if she was rich or not? What is your point?
My point with regard to mentioning Rahab was in response to your point about Rahab being chosen to represent God through persecution (which I noted wasn't clear to me and how that connected with finances) That makes sense. I was trying to put the people who were suffering in the correct context by quoting what the passage was about. The bolded portion of the scripture in Hebrews 11 starts the discourse on the persecuted people of faith. but to just point out that she had to have some means...to counteract the idea the believers have to be represented as financially destitute in order to be effective in their God-given purpose. Rahab is one of several example of the opposite of this.

Riches might not be promised (still looking up scriptures on this) but one thing that is consistent in the Word of God is that when a person obeys and submits to the Lord, wealth, favor, blessing comes with that. Blessings and favor, but not necessarily wealth. I already showed you scripture where people of faith died destitute. (Please refer to Psalm 112)Psalms 112 does not negate the people of faith and prophets who died in proverty or hid in caves, etc. Psalms 112 does not say that they weren't people of faith.

Psalm 112: 1-3

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem. This is an interesting belief, but you have not tied any scripture to it. I suggest that if you persist in believing things not in scripture that you pray on it. Well, let's not be too quick to say that this belief isn't scriptural.

Exodus 20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Proverbs 10:22: The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
Mark 10:30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)

Mark 10:29-31 (NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."


Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are): church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. I think my response to this is already noted in BLACK this multi-colored paragraph. Yes, it is becoming a rainbow of colors, but your response is not clear to me. Please advise what is not clear and I will do my best to bring forth clarity.

Responses in blue.

 

[tmichelle]

Wow... that sounds a lot like Job's family and friends who came and tried to convince him to curse God and die as a means to escape that "assignment". Job's wife told him to curse God and die, his friends continued to accuse him of wrong doing. They were the ones who argued that God "rewards" the righteous and since he was suffering, he obviously did something wrong. As I've been writing all along, this was not the case nor is it now. Riches don't mean that you have favor with the Lord, (nor does it mean you displease the Lord).
Riches can come with the favor of the Lord, if the person chooses to accept them as part of the reward for the Lord's favor and blessing. Yes, riches can come, but as I've stated before Christ makes it clear that it SHOULD NOT be out priority. Seeking God and His kingdom should be our priority.
I have not said that pursuing riches should be priority. What I did inquire about is WHO DECIDES WHAT'S TOO MUCH for someone else? My pursuit of ANYTHING will not look like your pursuit and no one really has the place outside of the Lord to tell another person that the intensity of their pursuit is too strong or too weak. Notice I said the INTENSITY of the pursuit, not the CONTENT of that pursuit.

This whole conversation started because the of the response to the question of why black men are leaving the church. We are not to even have the appearance of evil. These pastors are appearing evil through their desire to gain money. Asking for more from the flock than is needed is definitely an appearance of evil, if not to you than at least to the black men who are leaving (not to mention many others including myself). And yes, it is our place as the church to correct each other. We are told very strongly we are not to tolerate bad behavior.


Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Great verse, but this is not a promise to Christians, remeber Christ said, "

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Not for great is your reward on earth. The Jews were living in their promised land. In fact God promised if they would obey Him, they would have many rewards including, peace, wealth, no miscarring when they entered the promised land. The promises for Christians are when we enter our promised land as well, but ours is only a heavenly kingdom, that's why Christ says not to store up treasures for ourselves here where rust and moth destroy but to store up treasures in heaven as well as the other versus I previously quoted you.

Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem. This is an interesting belief, but you have not tied any scripture to it. I suggest that if you persist in believing things not in scripture that you pray on it. Well, let's not be too quick to say that this belief isn't scriptural.

Exodus 20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Proverbs 10:22: The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
Mark 10:30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)

Mark 10:29-31 (NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

I will take the verse in Mark since the others are again, not a promise to us but to those who had their promised land here on earth. So to Mark 10:20-30... How many people do you know with 100 physical mothers, or 100 physical brothers, or 100 physcial children. These are gifts given to us by the blood of Christ. The hundred mothers, brothers and children are all through our relationship with Christ. The Christians I worship with are my mothers, brothers, sisters and children. Likewise, their homes are my homes, their fields are my fields. Case in point. We have a sister living in our home right now. The world would call her poor, destitute and homeless, but she has a hundred homes because wherever she goes through the blood of Christ she has a home. (Also noteworthy, Christ says we'll have persecutions.)

Check out what the Christians did in Acts:
32And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
33And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
34For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.


Do you have access to the church's financial books? Any church worth its salt has regular business meetings or some other mechanism where this information is made available. Two things I will say to this: 1) when I give, I give unto the Lord in faith. Good So wherever the church does with the money is, how can I say, I have to release and trust that the funds are being handled with integrity and then I still can take any of those concerns I might have to the Lord; that's fine, I'm not calling you to account but the pastors who mishandle the Lord's people. and 2) whenever my flesh wants to question the church's finances, all I have to do is look around my church (w/a HUGE chandelier in the vestibule), heat, water, clean carpets, outreach programs, a school, churches opening in other cities and countries, broadcasting ministry, etc., then my questions are answered.

I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Do you agree? Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are) Do you agree?: church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. Do you agree? I think my response to this is already noted in BLACK this multi-colored paragraph. Yes, it is becoming a rainbow of colors, but your response is not clear to me. Please advise what is not clear and I will do my best to bring forth clarity.

 

[PaperClip]

This whole conversation started because the of the response to the question of why black men are leaving the church. We are not to even have the appearance of evil. These pastors are appearing evil through their desire to gain money. Asking for more from the flock than is needed is definitely an appearance of evil, if not to you than at least to the black men who are leaving (not to mention many others including myself). And yes, it is our place as the church to correct each other. We are told very strongly we are not to tolerate bad behavior.

Of course I submit to the Word of God that we are not to have the appearance of evil. The issue is that the church has taken this to such an extreme of APPEARING to be so heavenly bound that the church has become of no earthly good...of none effect. Of course we are to be intolerant of sin and we are to deal with and restore accordingly. In fact, Galatians 6:1 says this: "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Notice that it says "ye which are spiritual" meaning those who are controlled by the spirit, should restore the fellow believer. While we are all believers, it matters who does the correcting in the case of a pastor. The sheep don't correct the shepherd. One in PROPER AUTHORITY is to do that. The sheep are to PRAY for their pastor that he is not overtaken in a fault, but if that fault should occur, then that one who COVERS that pastor is to correct.

Also, about the Black men and the church. I submit to you that Black men aren't leaving the church. Many Black men LEFT the church A LONG TIME AGO. If we were to look at the church attendance of Black men and say, the Black power movement of the 1960s, I would speculate that that's when the church suffered from the decline and subsequent absence of Black men from the church. I would also speculate that Black men saw that Black power movement as an affirmation of their empowerment and so that's what the gravitated to...something that the church either would not or could not do. So I think it's less about the money issue and more about the following two things: 1) it's a spiritual attack to further divide the (Black) man as the leader, the head of the household, first from the Lord and also from his female counterpart and family; and 2) the seeming insecurity of some (not all) pastorships.

Let me be clear on this point: I believe that we can have a hundred fold now as well as a hundred fold later (in heaven). I can serve the Lord real good driving my Ford Focus right now and I can serve the Lord real good driving a late model Jaguar (or my my choice of a 2007 Lexus 350). The Lord really doesn't care what I drive, but if what I drive (or eat, or where I live) gets in the way of my ministry, then that's a big problem. This is an interesting belief, but you have not tied any scripture to it. I suggest that if you persist in believing things not in scripture that you pray on it. Well, let's not be too quick to say that this belief isn't scriptural.

Exodus 20:3: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Proverbs 10:22: The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
Mark 10:30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)

Mark 10:29-31 (NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

I will take the verse in Mark since the others are again, not a promise to us but to those who had their promised land here on earth. So to Mark 10:20-30... How many people do you know with 100 physical mothers, or 100 physical brothers, or 100 physcial children. These are gifts given to us by the blood of Christ. The hundred mothers, brothers and children are all through our relationship with Christ. The Christians I worship with are my mothers, brothers, sisters and children. Likewise, their homes are my homes, their fields are my fields. Case in point. We have a sister living in our home right now. The world would call her poor, destitute and homeless, but she has a hundred homes because wherever she goes through the blood of Christ she has a home. (Also noteworthy, Christ says we'll have persecutions.)

Check out what the Christians did in Acts:
32And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
33And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
34For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

This is feeling a bit cyclical. I am not debating the point about the priority of wealth and riches over the the things of the Lord. What I am saying is that wealth and riches can be in our houses as we submit and obey the Lord Jesus Christ (Psalm 112:3). This is spiritual and natural health and wealth. I am not sure how or why you are referencing the 100 children and such, but what I believe out of that scripture is that the hundredfold (defined by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary as "a great number") is both spiritual AND natural. In addition to the mention of children, brothers, sisters, etc., HOUSES and FIELDS. One either has been blessed with the money BY THE LORD to obtain those HOUSES and FIELDS and/or through the HOUSES and FIELDS (PLURAL), one became blessed.


I see your recurring theme about the church being in our hearts. Yes, this is true. And the Bible also admonishes believers to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". While some folk will say that such assembly can happen anywhere, in our 21st century society, many of us assemble at our local assembly. So yes, the building has significance. This is not a biblical conclusion. The only things that have significance are what God says are significant, not 21 century American culture. Do you agree? One thing that I hope we can agree on is that society has permeated the church and has had a major effect on how things are done in the church. It might be nice to think that the church is functioning in a fishbowl, but we know that's not really the case. This doesn't change that the Word of God is the standard, but even the Lord knew what we would face in the 21st century and so scripture hasn't changed, but maybe the way that we apply and carry out the scripture has. Pretty much all the organized religions have sacred buildings (again, these buildings aren't scared, the people are) Do you agree?: The buildings are sacred to the degree that the people DECLARE that property to be sacred. So while the people matter, the place where the people gather also matters. church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc. And the very stability of these physical edifaces play a major role in the assembly of believers and the equipping of believers to go out and evangelize the world. I have no problem with buildings, but they cannot become more than what God says they are or else they become an idol. God came down and dwelt in the tabernacle and then the temple, now he dwells in our hearts. Do you agree? What's to disagree with on this point? What comes to mind as I consider this is that the Lord led people in the past to build Him a place where He could come and dwell. The Lord dwelling in our hearts does not negate or remove the purpose of the modern-day church ediface: which is the place for the people of God to assemble and to get equipped to go out and evangelize the world.

Answers in BLUE. Edited to meet word count guidelines.

 

[cocoberry10]

RelaxerRehab and Tmichelle:

This website may help you all get answers. Hope it helps!

http://www.christianbibleinfo.com/BibleAndChurches.html

Is your Church doing things that are not found,
or are forbidden, in the Bible?

Do not be troubled or dismayed; this is that which God has planned and foretold. When you see these things happen, it is time to leave and NOT seek another, "better Church". If possible, find some believers and fellowship with them, and focus on the task that was originally given to the Churches: declaring the Gospel.


In the Bible, God tells us that there will come a time when the authorities in the churches will no longer look to His rule. This is the time when God allows Satan to sit in the place of rulership and rule, as if he were God:



2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The believers, those that God has saved, are forced out of the Churches by this change of rulership. What are we to do? We are to continue declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ outside the Churches (see verse 13 below):


Luke 21:5 ¶ And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


For more information concerning the Bible and the Churches,
the following items may be useful:


Some common questions that you may have: End of the Church Age, 4 Questions , Bible Internet Radio, w/ Live Q&A , Has God Saved You?

People to call, that are not part of a physical Church, and want to help others
find Christian fellowship: FellowServant List

 

[BlkManWithSomeSense]

I am immensely humbled by the wealth of knowledge here. Blessings to Everyone...

I'm working on my reply ..

 

[Shimmie]

tmichelle and Rehab...

The two of you have acutally been on the same page with this topic from the very beginning.

How can I say this? Easy....very easy. I've lived both.

Relaxer, you and I bloomed in the Word of Faith/Prosperity era. We learned the principles of God's word and how to work it (or better yet) allowed it to flow in our lives. We know by living example the priniples of 'seed time' and harvest. Like you, I know what it is to 'give' and see it mulitiplied back to me.

My two children are a walking, living breathing example of this life. My faiith was all I had to give them and speaking God's word over them night and day...day and night. I planted my 'seed' for them with every tithe and offering and trust me...the key words I prayed over my babies, each night while they were sleeping...

"Lord, my children are blessed with your Divine wisdom. Blessings and Mercies shall follow them all the days of their lives. They will not be poor and impoverished. You are blessing their hearts and minds with the mind of you. I thank you for giving them wisdom for witty inventions, and that you will bless the work of their hands, that they will work earnestly and give you glory and you will bless them and every good thing that their hands shall touch shall prosper..."

Testimony: At age 16 my son, pleaded with me to release him from going to school. He cried, and that he just could not handle the school system. I protested until the Lord spoke to me and said, "Let him go." My son chose to attend a trade school for carpentry. Everything he touched, God blessed. My son not only is a licensed contractor, but he is also an honest one. He works hard, but what God did was He gave my son a passion for re-building homes.

My daughter ...she too did not finish school until later. She married very young had children, but God gave her a gift and a talent and she has prospered tremendously as a SAHM. She has 'favor in the Market Place... again the word of God in full operation in her life.

The result of 'seed time and harverst.' Relaxer... 'I KNOW'...Yes, I know I live by these principles every single day.

timichelle; I also understand what you are saying and I agree with you as well as I do with Relaxer. For there has got to be a standard and a humble mindset among us as Christians when it comes to finances.

With what I shared above, the 'prosperity message' wth all of it's truth and blessings which I still live this very day...yet it has been taken out of proportion and it has gone out of control, but too, too, many leaders in the Church. And it's wrong. It's just plain wrong.

You see, every thing that God gives us is a gift, but satan will always come and pervert the gift...anything to make what God intends for good into something negative.

Greed is in the Body of Christ and it's in too many leaders. But not all. It's those 'few' that have taken full advantage of God's gift of blessings and have steam rolled down the aisles for collection after collection and it is just not right.

There is a right and a wrong way to do things. Or better, God's way or satan's way.

God has prospered my children because of an established Covenent that He made with me. That if I obeyed Him, he would bless the work of my hands and that He will bless my seed...my children. "Blessed is the fruit of my body" is what I confessed by faith, day in and day out. "My seed, my babies are blessed. They are blessed coming in and blessed going out. their footsteps are ordered of the Lord and with each step they are blessed with the blessings of obedience."

My children will tell you, they work hard for what they have. God has prospered them with cars, as homeowners, and as business owners. When my daughther's washer broke; she and her husband went out the same day and had a new one. Didn't have to 'wait' for a pay check to come in first. But it was faith which allowed them to prosper to that degree. They purchased their new home by faith; first Blacks in the neighborhood; furniture and appliances paid for in cash. But it was faith that allowed to work for years and save enough money to enable them to do so.

As Christians we are not supposed to be 'strapped' and broke down. It's crazy. God says that we would LEND and not borrow. I love it! For when a person is under a cloud of debt, and other money distresses, it's not God! It's not. But it is God to have these needs met as they arise.

It's just that the 'greed' of men who have misused God's principles for prosperity has made the "Prosperity' message a villian when it's not Prosperity, but the people who abuse it are the true villians.

Our men and women in leadship are not helping when they flaunt their 'blessings' and proclaim, 'we' can have the same if we continue to give. Most of the time, they are covering their butts for messing up the Church budget. Just say, the Church is short of money and ask for help from those who are able. Or better yet, use the faith that you are preaching to congregation. Prove what they are saying for 'us' to do by doing it themselves. (Hebrews 11)

God does want us, His children to prosper...His way. I'm not King Saul. I'm not going to disregard God's principles and look to other sources outside of God to be blessed or to have my needs met. NO! I'm going staight to the Word of God, and follow the guidelines and principles which He has set in order for me to follow. I don't need to 'Manifest' something that God has already 'manifested' for me in His word. I just go to Him directly and He has never, never, ever said no.

tmichelle and Relaxer, the two of you are sweethearts. I hear you both. And in truth you truly are BOTH correct.

This is just a complicated subject, that's all.

 

[PaperClip]

tmichelle and Rehab...

The two of you have acutally been on the same page with this topic from the very beginning.

tmichelle and Relaxer, the two of you are sweethearts. I hear you both. And in truth you truly are BOTH correct.

This is just a complicated subject, that's all.

((((HUGS ALL AROUND))))

Thank you for reminding us (me at least) of the big picture. It's been a pleasure to be a part of this lively conversation because we all allowed each other to express and flow without personal attack. I am grateful for this....

 

[Shimmie]

((((HUGS ALL AROUND))))

Thank you for reminding us (me at least) of the big picture. It's been a pleasure to be a part of this lively conversation because we all allowed each other to express and flow without personal attack. I am grateful for this....

Amen, Angel. satan will not get any glory out of this. Never!

(Shimmie turns on her heel and stomps the devil in his head-double time). For satan is under our feet. And there isn't a thing that he can do about it. Not Ever!!!

((((( All around love and hugs to everyone from me too)))) .

 

[Nuelle]

Perhaps because I always thought I would be single, or perhaps because my sister is single and writes for Christian Single magazine I have always cared about the singles in the church. While the Lord has blessed me with a loving Christian husband who is a dream come true, I know the heart ache that comes with living without a relationship you always wanted because I feel that there are MANY similarities between singlenss and infertility (which I've been going through).

Anyway, not to post just another IR thread After viewing the preview on the dvd concerning single black women and the church and hearing, once again, how slim the pickings are for black men, I was wondering how many black Christian women are willing to open their hearts to a non-black man.

I truly won't be offended by however you vote but I would like to encourage all the single women to be observant of who God may intend for you to have. It may not be what you always envisioned having, a black man. I would just hate for all these women to go through life wanting to have a godly husband just to find out that they overlooked the one God had choosen because they didn't realize that they were to marry a non-black.

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.

I haven't read through this whole thread, but I thank you for reminding us what is truly at stake. A few nights ago, after reading your post, I decided to ask my mother what her opinion was, and she said that she hopes that my sister and I will marry Christian men. Well, I tried to get her to be more specific, as in does he need to be of a certain nationality..etc, but she said that "if he is a true Christian, everything else will fall in its right place." I really liked what she had to say and it reminds me of what my pastor said once, which is that we should "stop limiting God's grace." I've read some of the IR threads and it seems that we limit our own happiness by worrying too much about what society will think of us, when we should worry about what God thinks of us.

Togetherness made a great point. When I think about whom God will put in my life, I think of a black man by default, but I try to remember that God knows best. We just have to be open-minded enough so when God speaks into our lives, we can recognize His voice and have the courage to act according to His will. Stay blessed!!!

 

[cocoberry10]

I haven't read through this whole thread, but I thank you for reminding us what is truly at stake. A few nights ago, after reading your post, I decided to ask my mother what her opinion was, and she said that she hopes that my sister and I will marry Christian men. Well, I tried to get her to be more specific, as in does he need to be of a certain nationality..etc, but she said that "if he is a true Christian, everything else will fall in its right place." I really liked what she had to say and it reminds me of what my pastor said once, which is that we should "stop limiting God's grace." I've read some of the IR threads and it seems that we limit our own happiness by worrying too much about what society will think of us, when we should worry about what God thinks of us.

Togetherness made a great point. When I think about whom God will put in my life, I think of a black man by default, but I try to remember that God knows best. We just have to be open-minded enough so when God speaks into our lives, we can recognize His voice and have the courage to act according to His will. Stay blessed!!!

This is beautifully written!

 

[Maa Maa omo mti]

I've always told myself I'm open to others but in actuality I can't really see myself with anyone but a black guy. Being that I'm african I don't buy into the whole there aren't enough black men mentality. All my african and west indian friends are married to black guys who are doing well in life. I feel like why shouldn't I too find someone. I've tried to close my eyes and be open to others but for some reason I just couldn't go any further. I put too much expectations on another race to be with me. Like the other race will have to seriously chase me and make me realize he is for me. Don't get me wrong I don't just let any black guy into my life they too have to come correct but I honestly put another race on another platform in which they have to come extra correct and work extra heard to make me realize he is for me.

I know this is defeating the purpose but I just can't help it.

 

[golden bronze]

I prefer Black men, but I have dated others. If a man is who God chooses for you, who are you to argue that he isn't the color and package you wanted?

I like Black men because of the common bond, the need not to explain, our history, and their looks. I am not looking for a non-black man but if he came I would accept him as the one God sent.

 

[Zeal]

This may sound bad but I'd really like someone who is ambitious - in whatever field he's in. I'd also prefer someone who has passion - in something OUTSIDE of work; languages, the arts, sports w/e.

What I mean is, I am becoming an attorney. I work hard and I've worked hard for a long time because I feel that much is required to whom much is given, so I'd like someone who has worked hard as well - in whatever field. I am really serious about using my career to help others, specifically youth and minority/immigrant women. So I want my man to work hard to - in whatever field - music, nursing, investment banking, medicine, law, public health, performing, accounting, whatever. He doesn't have to be rich, nor does he have to be brilliant. Just hard working and ambitious, eager to support his family and help his community.

But I also want someone who likes to have a good time. I want somoene who I can go see a play or travel with, or go salsa dancing with or just watch a movie and be silly and throw popcorn at one another...I think its important to balance work and social life.

Often times I find people in either extremes. Of course I also want a strong Christian who will challenge me and vice versa.

Agree..... and congrats on your weight loss.

 

[delp]

tmichelle and Rehab...

The two of you have acutally been on the same page with this topic from the very beginning.

How can I say this? Easy....very easy. I've lived both.

Relaxer, you and I bloomed in the Word of Faith/Prosperity era. We learned the principles of God's word and how to work it (or better yet) allowed it to flow in our lives. We know by living example the priniples of 'seed time' and harvest. Like you, I know what it is to 'give' and see it mulitiplied back to me.

My two children are a walking, living breathing example of this life. My faiith was all I had to give them and speaking God's word over them night and day...day and night. I planted my 'seed' for them with every tithe and offering and trust me...the key words I prayed over my babies, each night while they were sleeping...

"Lord, my children are blessed with your Divine wisdom. Blessings and Mercies shall follow them all the days of their lives. They will not be poor and impoverished. You are blessing their hearts and minds with the mind of you. I thank you for giving them wisdom for witty inventions, and that you will bless the work of their hands, that they will work earnestly and give you glory and you will bless them and every good thing that their hands shall touch shall prosper..."

Testimony: At age 16 my son, pleaded with me to release him from going to school. He cried, and that he just could not handle the school system. I protested until the Lord spoke to me and said, "Let him go." My son chose to attend a trade school for carpentry. Everything he touched, God blessed. My son not only is a licensed contractor, but he is also an honest one. He works hard, but what God did was He gave my son a passion for re-building homes.

My daughter ...she too did not finish school until later. She married very young had children, but God gave her a gift and a talent and she has prospered tremendously as a SAHM. She has 'favor in the Market Place... again the word of God in full operation in her life.

The result of 'seed time and harverst.' Relaxer... 'I KNOW'...Yes, I know I live by these principles every single day.

timichelle; I also understand what you are saying and I agree with you as well as I do with Relaxer. For there has got to be a standard and a humble mindset among us as Christians when it comes to finances.

With what I shared above, the 'prosperity message' wth all of it's truth and blessings which I still live this very day...yet it has been taken out of proportion and it has gone out of control, but too, too, many leaders in the Church. And it's wrong. It's just plain wrong.

You see, every thing that God gives us is a gift, but satan will always come and pervert the gift...anything to make what God intends for good into something negative.

Greed is in the Body of Christ and it's in too many leaders. But not all. It's those 'few' that have taken full advantage of God's gift of blessings and have steam rolled down the aisles for collection after collection and it is just not right.

There is a right and a wrong way to do things. Or better, God's way or satan's way.

God has prospered my children because of an established Covenent that He made with me. That if I obeyed Him, he would bless the work of my hands and that He will bless my seed...my children. "Blessed is the fruit of my body" is what I confessed by faith, day in and day out. "My seed, my babies are blessed. They are blessed coming in and blessed going out. their footsteps are ordered of the Lord and with each step they are blessed with the blessings of obedience."

My children will tell you, they work hard for what they have. God has prospered them with cars, as homeowners, and as business owners. When my daughther's washer broke; she and her husband went out the same day and had a new one. Didn't have to 'wait' for a pay check to come in first. But it was faith which allowed them to prosper to that degree. They purchased their new home by faith; first Blacks in the neighborhood; furniture and appliances paid for in cash. But it was faith that allowed to work for years and save enough money to enable them to do so.

As Christians we are not supposed to be 'strapped' and broke down. It's crazy. God says that we would LEND and not borrow. I love it! For when a person is under a cloud of debt, and other money distresses, it's not God! It's not. But it is God to have these needs met as they arise.

It's just that the 'greed' of men who have misused God's principles for prosperity has made the "Prosperity' message a villian when it's not Prosperity, but the people who abuse it are the true villians.

Our men and women in leadship are not helping when they flaunt their 'blessings' and proclaim, 'we' can have the same if we continue to give. Most of the time, they are covering their butts for messing up the Church budget. Just say, the Church is short of money and ask for help from those who are able. Or better yet, use the faith that you are preaching to congregation. Prove what they are saying for 'us' to do by doing it themselves. (Hebrews 11)

God does want us, His children to prosper...His way. I'm not King Saul. I'm not going to disregard God's principles and look to other sources outside of God to be blessed or to have my needs met. NO! I'm going staight to the Word of God, and follow the guidelines and principles which He has set in order for me to follow. I don't need to 'Manifest' something that God has already 'manifested' for me in His word. I just go to Him directly and He has never, never, ever said no.

tmichelle and Relaxer, the two of you are sweethearts. I hear you both. And in truth you truly are BOTH correct.

This is just a complicated subject, that's all.

Sooo True... I definately agree with the red portion. You have a wonderful testimony.

 

[Hidden_Angel]

I didn't even know i had voted..

Honesty.. whatever God gives me but I know i want me a stong black man..