Single Christian women are you looking only for black men?
- Thread starter tmichelle
- Start date
BlkManWithSomeSense
New Member
tmichelle said:
I personally believe, as many have obtained higher social statuses and enjoyed greater financial prosperity, their priorities have unwittingly changed. Self empowerment has grown to such a level that it has brought upon an arrogant and stubborn streak that deeply taints our ministry and the people. No longer does our teachings and faith remain a clear and vibrant voice of consciousness. Instead, it is has now become a faint whisper, only to be heard in the dark during periods of great loss, crisis and trepidation. This reduction of consciousness has created compromises that has left ourselves open to conflicts of interest between our religious beliefs and our personal relationships.
Many of the 'sheep's in wolf clothing' pastors have created 'safe' ministries. Sermons that do not rock the boat, threaten or offend. They have mellowed the impact of consequences and encourage less judgmental behavior, stressing the intention of the heart than the action of the person (with an underlying emphasis on finance). This will allow people to enjoy their conflicting lives, continue to be Christians,and enjoy effective 'leadership'. I personally think these types of pastors have deeply fractured the black community against the 'old school' beliefs of accountability and the 'new school' beliefs of compromise.
I don't know if it will be possible for our community to get back on track. The bedrock of our community is the church and thats as fragmented as it's people. Many know that the core beliefs of the church would never agree nor compromise with some of the choices and actions made by some. So rather than abandon and reevaluate priorities, some people would rather leave well enough alone, ultimately feeling that as bad as things are, it would be worse to lose personal indulgances they currently enjoy, which is why others that do not believe in God seem to be doing better in the social issues you mentioned.
I beleve we are affected the most by this inner turmoil because african americans have always maintained an intimate connection to the church.
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BlkManWithSomeSense
New Member
tmichelle said:
I've also wondered but I sure hope he has a good sense of humor.
cocoberry10
Well-Known Member
BlkManWithSomeSense said:
Very well said. I think it's impossible for men to respect the leaders of the church when they are living very similarly to those that they "criticize," and this extends outside of the Black community (think Ted Haggard). When Jesse Jackson's infidelity was discovered, it was almost like, "who cares," was the response of the Black community.
AND, he had the nerve to say "well I was separated from my wife." Negro, you are a minister! Separation does not equal divorce. Don't even make excuses, just APOLOGIZE! I admit, I'm not, nor have I ever been a fan of Jesse Jackson, so it's tough to justify his crap!
I say this, b/c I know A LOT of good black men. I too struggle at times through some of my experiences with Black men, thinking "are they getting worse, etc.?" But then the Holy Spirit will whisper the name of a good black man. Yes, my father is a good black man and so are many of his friends, but they are older. I'm only in my 20's. So when I start thinking these young men are (whatever I think), the Holy Spirit will whisper the name of someone who is good and remind me not to always look at someone's actions, b/c there may be things I can't see that explain why someone acts the way they do.
tmichelle said:Well, reading this, I have to say I am so sorry for all the hurt you have been through! I know you are probably over it by now, but just reading through your post makes it come to life for me. Thanks for sharing your struggles and your ultimate conviction. I am praying for the Lord to bring you a man that will love Him and bring you both closer to Him.
But I'll have to smile if he brings you a non-black man. Which reminds me, there have been several occasions which have convinced me that God does indeed have a sense of humor. You'll just have to promise that when you remarry you'll divulge the wedding pictures.
Me? Wedding Pictures?
I'd love to 'see' them myself... 
(other text deleted by Shimmie)....
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cocoberry10
Well-Known Member
Shimmie said:Me? Wedding Pictures?
I Need everyone's Perspective, especially 'you' BMWSS - your insight will help tremendously with this. Here goes....
My Black Experience:
First the Background:
My father, grandfather and my uncles, treated me like a princess when I was growing up. My paternal grandfather (Harlem NY) especially. I was 'his' first born and he doted all of his affections upon me all my life; and all I knew as a child was love and tenderness from the BLACK men I was surrounded by.
Although there is a vast cultural mix in our family, we are all still Black. And these were the first men who loved me... Black men.
Note: My families on both sides are pretty large, meaning, while growing up, there were at least 25 or more adult Black men who catered to the women in our family. My Point: I was always surrounded by them wherever I lived.
Look what happened:
The first Black man to ever disrespect me was my ex husband. And I never understood why ... even to this day.I still don't understand, how he could say that he loved me and yet behave the complete and total opposite.
BMWSS, this is where I need your perspective -- you have a wonderful gift with analyzing.
This drastic change from ONE Black man, changed my life drastically.
Here it is...... "It seemed to wipe out all of the love that I experienced as a child.
BMWSS, how could that happen because of ONE man?
Is it because I was so used to the purness of love and affection; and I was also very protected by the men in our family as a child?
Note: We were never spanked by the men in our family. Girls were never to be hit or improperly touched by the men. They held our hand or lifted us up on their shoulders when crossing the street. Picked us up from the ground when we fell. Yet, the women in our family did all of the spanking (actually it was a 'switch' from the hedges and we learned well.... very well.
But again, by the men in the family, all of the woman were protected. We were literrally catered to. They did all of the 'hard' stuff.
Side note: My maternal grandmother knew how to break the neck of a chicken or a duck, pluck the feathers, and dress it for cooking. But it was the men who slaughtered the pigs and the deer and brought them home, laid them out on the wood table and prepared them for cooking and freezing. (My mom's family was strictly southern)
This is what I don't understand. Knowing my background as a child, how could one man, (my ex-husband) affect me so strongly that for a long while, my thinking was such that white men were better? I have never understood this. Never! How could he have so much power over my thinking ... this ONE man? What are your thoughts on this?
Of course, I now feel differently. God has done much in my heart. And I still prefer Black over White. I just do. Black is where my heart is. All through my life, Black is where "Love" originated for me. Black is who I am and where I want to be.
Sorry for the long text. But I was trying to give a clear picture of my background. Thanks again, for shariing your perspectives on what I shared above.
I'm definitely not BMWSS
, so I won't even try to answer as well as I know he will, but here's my take on it.I had some of the same struggles as you. I've never been married and haven't been in an "abusive" relationship, but I had excellent examples of Black men. My dad is a great black man, and I have some great uncles and play uncles and cousins, etc. I did also have some negative examples within my family, but I overlooked them b/c I didn't think they were the "norm." Furthermore, I believe in turning negatives into positives, so I learned "from them," (i.e. I won't marry a man who is unfaithful to his wife, or who mistreats her, etc.--get my drift?
)Well, as I became old enough to date, I started seeing Black men who degraded Black women. Insulting them. Calling them unattractive, fat, attitudinal. Men who made excuses for why they didn't like or date Black women. Black men who insulted Black women saying they were "too black" or "too light." This really hurt me. In my household, Black was Black. And Black was beautiful. It caused me to start doubting myself. And it made me become more cynical and negative towards Black men. I started focusing on those that were negative. Mind you, 100 Black men could call me beautiful, or compliment me, but I was going to focus on the one that insulted us. And I have to take responsibility for that. Start forcing yourself to notice the men that aren't that way (outside your family, b/c they are there). The Black man who holds the door open for you--he doesn't have to--he probably doesn't even know you. The one that tells you, you are pretty. The one that smiles at you. Stop noticing the ones that are not worthy. Because in every race there are good and bad. Unfortunately, because the media loves to exploit our race, many of our "examples," of Black men represent the bad, not the good. Kanye's mutt comments (I won't even go there). The rap lyrics calling women *****es and hoes. The movies that depict us negatively. The Black men who publicly denigrate their race by saying that Black women are __________ (fill in the blank). All men DON'T THINK LIKE THIS!
And it's funny, b/c with all our self-hatred issues (see off-topic posts), and our horrid history in this country...I still see us trying soooooooooo desperately to love one another. Whenever I go somewhere that my people are, I see us trying to fellowship with one another. Trying to "hold on" to traditions, and maintain that brotherhood/sisterhood.
I'm in a sorority, as are many of my non-Black friends. And let me tell you something. It's not the same. Black frats and sororities are connected in a brotherly/sisterly way that you don't see with white ones. They don't stay connected after college. We do. We stay connected. In the Black church, we have picnics, and family reunions, b/c we want that bond.
Even a lot of Black men who do date outside the race, often end up marrying a black woman. And many that don't say they secretly wish they could marry a black woman. Because there's nothing like being Black.
And everyone but us knows this. That's why they steal our style, our culture. When I was in Japan, you should have seen these kids trying to be "us" with their hair and dress. They love our music, our style. Of all the genre's of music that are popular worldwide, hip hop is the most popular. Oh, if we could only love ourselves as much as others love us. We would blow this world to bits!
tmichelle said:
Hmmm.... Maybe because I have been taught differently, I have to temper my knee-jerk reaction when I hear or read about the topic of "extra collections" for the pastor, if you will.
1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (KJV)
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well,[a] especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. (NLV)
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
This is my go-to scripture to respond to this line of subject matter. I know that I can say that my pastor is worthy to be counted of double honor and he does WORK HARD at both preaching and teaching and directing the affairs of the church. Notice that it DOES NOT say "GOOD" or "BEST", or even "PERFECT". It says work hard, doing one's best and operating in integrity. I have been with my church for close to 20 years. I have served as the secretary of my pastor's wife for a long time. I also worked in church ministry full time at one point in my life. I have traveled with my pastor and family (they took me on my first plane ride AND my first cruise). I have seen my pastor build HIS OWN business/entrepreneurial activities along with serving FULL-TIME as church pastor. Why? Because he has an interest in business and because he knows and recognizes that a REAL pastor does not go into church ministry to MAKE MONEY (there's scripture for this). I KNOW it is a full-time gig because when I have travelled with them and the pastor's cell phone RANG OFF THE HOOK... why? Because God's man don't get time off!
Unlike these corporate jobs or even basic service jobs where the EARTHLY market sets the compensation rates, the salary rates for a pastor cannot be set by earthly means. At my church, we give (or I should say we have the OPPORTUNITY to give for pastor's anniversary, pastor's and the pastor's wife's birthday, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and Christmas). Like I said, I don't have a problem giving for ANY of these because I love my spiritual parents dearly and they have been there for me countless ways and times. I can't pay them for how they have blessed my life and helped me get to know the Lord better so I can have MY OWN relationship with the Lord.
And when people bring in the rich pastor, poor congregation point in, again, put it in the proper context. Some people think giving to the church is a gamble (like the casino), like a membership (to a club). The church is NOT a bank, a mortgage company, a utility payment loan center. It is the house of God. It is there to HELP people who are truly in need, not those who made poor choices or tried to skip over biblical principles of FAITH and OBEDIENCE.
Let me be clear, I know that there are some pastors who do rape the flock, so to speak. They're going to have to answer to God for that, just like we all have to stand before our Lord Jesus Christ and answer for what we did and did not do. So if a pastor decides to up and steal the tithes and/or the offerings or decides to burn them in the church's chicken BBQ pit, I can still stand before my God and say I did what I was supposed to do.
I think calling the "happy pastor offering" a tip is YOUR own interpretation and I will also say that it is uninformed to an extent. There are PLENTY of examples in the Bible when a person encountered a (true) prophet/man of God and was CHALLENGED to act on faith by giving (I'm thinking of the woman who built a room for the prophet and the lady who was going to make the last of food for she and her son to die). In both of those stories, these women acted on FAITH (nobody put a proverbial gun to their heads) and the Lord responded to their faith and blessed them as never before.
Finally, I would encourage ANYONE who has doubts or concerns about a pastor and the issues with money is to talk to that pastor's boss. His name is JESUS CHRIST and trust, the Lord will first of all, love and comfort you about your concerns and then tell you in His sweet, gentle way to let Him handle His own "employees".
God bless.
tmichelle
New Member
RelaxerRehab said:
Ouch! Looks like I have offended.
NASB
17(AF)The elders who (AG)rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (AH)work hard at preaching and teaching.
18For the Scripture says, "(AI)YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "(AJ)The laborer is worthy of his wages."
I have NO problem and greatly believe in paying the elders, but I don't think this verse means that they should be taking up collections for themselves at every chance they get and asking for special ones just because it's their wife's birthday. And I know for a fact that some of the people giving money (my family) were a lot less well off than the pastor. Double honor DOES NOT mean rolling in it and asking for more when the flock is struggling. (Nor does it mean having your own parking space in the front of the building where everyone else has to look at your late model jaguar and the truly elderly can't even easily access the building because the car is in the way. Which is another thing I've seen). Also the rich pastor/poor church is not always because these people made bad choices. Yes many of them did, but not all. In fact, where does God promise us that our monetary blessings will be linked to our spirituality? Some people are poor despite making good choices. Sometimes, God allows people to represent Him in this world who aren't rich.
(Also, the Happy Pastor Offering meaning a tip, was NOT my interpretation as you have stated, I actually asked my Aunt who told me).
So if you want to give money for your pastor (and his wife) for every occasion, fine by me, but it is TACKY at best and GREEDY at worst to ask for more $$$ from the flock (to buy your luxury car with), double honors notwithstanding. BTW, in the examples you gave:
1.the Widow of Zaraphath and Elijah, he did not ask for food so that he could stock up his pantry (as are many of the pastors with their excessive collections).
2. Elisha and the Shunamite woman (the one who built a room for him) if your remember, Elisha did not ASK for it as are so many of these pastors
togethernessinchrist said:
"Black by Default"...
When I read this, it ministered to me. It's 'beyond' natural for me to be attracted to a Black Man. By default, by set design, I yield to Black.
I'm not saying that God isn't blending and mending the races. I 'know' that He is. I have too many family and friends who are in IR relationships and they are very happy. I think it's beautiful. These marriages were also a result of prayer...'marriage prayers' that God allowed me to be a part of. AND it blows me away to see the 'fruit' of these prayers that God allowed to flow through me. Praise Him!
But when "I" tried to go 'White', it never felt right. I thought it was and for a long time, it looked as if I was going to be among my IR friends. But the tables changed...for me in my perspective. My heart was not complete. There was something not quite right in me.
Now I know why.... My heart is yielded "Black by Default."
TogethernessinChrist..."Thank You"....
((( Hugs )))
tmichelle said:
BMWSS Nailed IT !!!! And then you gave it the extra whack!
The Pastors I have now, I love and would give them whatever I have. They are just that important to me in my life. They mentor me, and have taken me into their hearts and lives as one of their own...family wise. We love each other without reserve. They encourage my ministry.
The thing is, they are extremely humble. They don't demand or manipulate scripture to get people to give more money. It's in this respect, that I sincerely do understand Relaxer Rehab.
On the other hand I was under a ministry that DID milk the offerings and people were in dire straits if they didn't 'give'.
When God gives us substance, we have 'seed for sowing and bread for eating'. There is a certain amount that we are to give and I don't have a problem with that. But I DO have a problem when one is made to feel pressured into giving away their 'bread money'.
A gift should always be by choice...not asked for or forced. It makes me wonder why I have to ask for a gift when it's my birthday. People who love you, just automatically 'give' without having to be asked. I mean, hello???
Be a man or a wife of the Church. Present your husband or wife with a beautiful arrangement of roses and have the congregation sing Happy Birthday or Happy Anniverisary or whatever. NOW, afterwards, anyone, without being asked is welcome to extend the gift, if they so choose.
Too many ministries have far too much financially and materially and they really have no business asking for more.
There has to be a line drawn...
However, the lines have been 'BLURRED'
by selfishness to have more, more, more. II Thessolonians 3:
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's BREAD for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
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Hey ... BTW: My birthday is one month from today, Saturday, April 21. Ummmm, let's see,
tmichelle said:
Here's the thing: we all have free will. We all have the opportunity to take part or not in giving an OFFERING versus a COLLECTION, which sounds like the people are being usurped out of their meek and lowly coins. Offering is "active", a collection is "passive". The Bible says to give WILLINGLY, CHEERFULLY, WITHOUT FORCE. So why participate in a COLLECTION with a jacked-up attitude? Who is one trying to impress with participating in all those collections? That sounds like a PERSONAL SITUATION and projecting the frustration on the pastor's car or house is a deep misdirection of anger if one's financial situation is suffering. All that debt and trouble didn't happen overnight. Again, this goes back to the individual relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord will lead and guide concerning giving OFFERINGS IF YOU ASK HIM.
Now, with regard to the rich pastor, poor congregation: everybody in the congregation ain't poor. Don't be fooled by that one. Being in church my WHOLE life, I've seen this over and over: SOME people DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO WITH THEIR MONEY. They BUY what the WANT and BEG for what they NEED.
I'm not giving my tithes and offerings to the pastor. I BRING them to the Lord through my local assembly (church). I am grateful that I do not have to be concerned that my pastor is taking the tithes and doing wrong with them. But I'll say this once again: if (God forbid) he got led astray, I can still stand before the Lord with my head held high because I did what I was supposed to do. With regard to participating in the so-called "extra" offerings? Again, it's easy to give to a person who has been such a blessing to my life. I mean DIRECT impact. And you know what else? My personal testimony is that when I practice Luke 6:38: "Give, and it will be given to you. You will have more than enough. It can be pushed down and shaken together and it will still run over as it is given to you. The way you give to others is the way you will receive in return" let me tell you, I have EVERYTHING I need and want. I have not gone without, and that's with being laid off since 2003. Right now I'm a full-time graduate student working on my doctorate in education...on FULL SCHOLARSHIP! FULL SCHOLARSHIP! I drove a FORD ESCORT for almost 10 years with some of the original parts. When I finally had to let it go and I didn't know what I was going to do to get back and forth to school, know that within a couple of hours, I was driving a new-to-me car off the lot with NO CAR NOTE.
1.the Widow of Zaraphath and Elijah, he did not ask for food so that he could stock up his pantry (as are many of the pastors with their excessive collections). BUT HE DID ASK THE WIDOW FOR SOMETHING. SHE HAD FREE WILL. SHE COULD HAVE SAID NO. AND SHE COULD HAVE DIED AND WE WOULD NOT BE TALKING ABOUT HER TODAY. BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HER BECAUSE SHE G-A-V-E TO THE MAN OF GOD. SHE GAVE OUT OF FAITH AND OBEDIENCE.
2. Elisha and the Shunamite woman (the one who built a room for him) if your remember, Elisha did not ASK for it as are so many of these pastors
SEE ANSWER TO NO. 1. AND THIS ALSO BRINGS IN THIS SCRIPTURE:
"A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men." (Proverbs 18:16)
"A gift opens the way for the giver and ushers him into the presence of the great."
LET'S READ A BIT MORE ABOUT THIS SHUNAMITE WOMAN: THE PROPHET ELISHA ASKED HER WHAT SHE WANTED (BECAUSE SHE HAD GIVEN TO HIM OUT OF FAITH AND OBEDIENCE). SHE SAID SHE WANTED A CHILD. SHE HAD A CHILD A YEAR LATER, RIGHT? THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT MONEY COULD NOT BUY. AND THEN WHEN THAT SAME CHILD WAS THOUGHT TO BE DEAD. SHE CALLED ON THE PROPHET OF GOD AND HE CAME AND HE PRAYED AND HER BABY CAME BACK TO LIFE. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT THE MONEY SHE HAD COULD NOT BUY.
(did the ALL CAPS above only to distinguish my answer from your remarks in the above section).
So you know it's really not about the money. It's about the FAITH and OBEDIENCE of the gift giver.
(Mark 12:41-43 and Luke 21:1-4)
And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Big differences between ASKING, OPENING THE OPPORTUNITY, SEDUCING, and FORCING a person to do something. And again, some pastors may do this and they will have to answer to God for what they do. And at the same time, a person even TRYING to have a relationship with the Lord will go to the LORD and ask Him for direction about remaining at that church.
And to Dear Shimmie: I'm glad to read that you understand where I'm coming from. You're like a cyber big sister to me... always looking out for me.... ((((HUGS))))
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upandcoming
New Member
Hey ladies,
I'm glad to see this thread is still popping. You know, lately I've been having thoughts about having a child - not anytime soon of course - but just...I would like a husband and I would like to have a child as well. I'm praying that God will put me in a position where I can be with someone who HE wants me to be with because...when it comes down to it, households are the foundation of society.
Now, not every household will look the same - some will be single women, others will be divorcees or windows whatever...but the point isthese households are the foundation of society. We can have all of the volunteer organizations and self help organizations we want, but if we can't get our households straight, little will change.
Why am I saying this? I think it's SO important to be with someone who is trying to live for God and willing to put the time and energy into being a parent. Also someone who loves you and wants to make you relationship a beautiful ministry. I don't feel a calling to 'ordained' ministry but I definitely know I have a calling for certain types of work and I want to work on it. I pray that the man I will be with has a similar mindset and will challenge me, teach me, be a man...=)
And I pray that I can support him 100%.I want us to be lifelong friends.
I think God's telling me that not now, but iwthin a year or so, Ill be ready to start a relationship...there are just a few things I know I need to do, and there are some things God wants me to do...
I really love this thread. =)
BTW Mrs. Shimmie, don't thank me! =P
Take care you guys, sorry for the long rant...
I'm glad to see this thread is still popping. You know, lately I've been having thoughts about having a child - not anytime soon of course - but just...I would like a husband and I would like to have a child as well. I'm praying that God will put me in a position where I can be with someone who HE wants me to be with because...when it comes down to it, households are the foundation of society.
Now, not every household will look the same - some will be single women, others will be divorcees or windows whatever...but the point isthese households are the foundation of society. We can have all of the volunteer organizations and self help organizations we want, but if we can't get our households straight, little will change.
Why am I saying this? I think it's SO important to be with someone who is trying to live for God and willing to put the time and energy into being a parent. Also someone who loves you and wants to make you relationship a beautiful ministry. I don't feel a calling to 'ordained' ministry but I definitely know I have a calling for certain types of work and I want to work on it. I pray that the man I will be with has a similar mindset and will challenge me, teach me, be a man...=)
And I pray that I can support him 100%.I want us to be lifelong friends.
I think God's telling me that not now, but iwthin a year or so, Ill be ready to start a relationship...there are just a few things I know I need to do, and there are some things God wants me to do...
I really love this thread. =)
BTW Mrs. Shimmie, don't thank me! =P
Take care you guys, sorry for the long rant...
upandcoming
New Member
Shimmie said:"Black by Default"...
When I read this, it ministered to me. It's 'beyond' natural for me to be attracted to a Black Man. By default, by set design, I yield to Black.
I'm not saying that God isn't blending and mending the races. I 'know' that He is. I have too many family and friends who are in IR relationships and they are very happy. I think it's beautiful. These marriages were also a result of prayer...'marriage prayers' that God allowed me to be a part of. AND it blows me away to see the 'fruit' of these prayers that God allowed to flow through me. Praise Him!
But when "I" tried to go 'White', it never felt right. I thought it was and for a long time, it looked as if I was going to be among my IR friends. But the tables changed...for me in my perspective. My heart was not complete. There was something not quite right in me.
Now I know why.... My heart is yielded "Black by Default."
TogethernessinChrist..."Thank You"....
(((Hugs))) I don't really know WHY I feel that way, maybe its because I have black skin and my family is black so whenever I think of my family, it's black. There's NOTHING wrong with interracial dating and I've been interested in a man or two outside of my race but...it's just a fact that I imagine black. =)
tmichelle
New Member
Shimmie said:BMWSS Nailed IT !!!! And then you gave it the extra whack!
The Pastors I have now, I love and would give them whatever I have. They are just that important to me in my life. They mentor me, and have taken me into their hearts and lives as one of their own...family wise. We love each other without reserve. They encourage my ministry.
The thing is, they are extremely humble. They don't demand or manipulate scripture to get people to give more money. It's in this respect, that I sincerely do understand Relaxer Rehab.
On the other hand I was under a ministry that DID milk the offerings and people were in dire straits if they didn't 'give'.
When God gives us substance, we have 'seed for sowing and bread for eating'. There is a certain amount that we are to give and I don't have a problem with that. But I DO have a problem when one is made to feel pressured into giving away their 'bread money'.
A gift should always be by choice...not asked for or forced. It makes me wonder why I have to ask for a gift when it's my birthday. People who love you, just automatically 'give' without having to be asked. I mean, hello???
Be a man or a wife of the Church. Present your husband or wife with a beautiful arrangement of roses and have the congregation sing Happy Birthday or Happy Anniverisary or whatever. NOW, afterwards, anyone, without being asked is welcome to extend the gift, if they so choose.
Too many ministries have far too much financially and materially and they really have no business asking for more.
There has to be a line drawn...
However, the lines have been 'BLURRED'
II Thessolonians 3:
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's BREAD for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
````````````
Hey ... BTW: My birthday is one month from today, Saturday, April 21. Ummmm, let's see,
Thanks, this about summed up my thoughts on the question.
RelaxerRehab said:
Bigger hugs to you too, angel. I'm in love with my Pastors, and just like you, giving to them is as easy as breathing. I also can attest to the 'blessings' of being a tither and a giver...to the Right ground. You and I have been blessed with good ground to plant our seed into... indeed.
I also believe tmichelle feels the same. And the same with BMWSS. It's just that our 'faith' has been taken to the limits and beyond with all of the flash and commercialism.
Sadly, I've lived in both realms of the ministry. The Humble and the 'Takers'. And it's running over the edge. It's spreading like a mudslide which is worse than a water flood. For mud sucks one under and suffocates them. You can't float in mud. In water, you still have a chance to float and be seen for rescue.
There's something in the Church which is just so wrong. How many houses does one really need? How many cars? The boundary lines are being blurred and in many cases erased. And we can't ignore it any more.
BMWSS spoke of the humble. The moderate. The true ministers of God. Where are they? Those we have are now outnumbered by the ones who have only the glitst and glamour....
Does it take all of that to do what God called us to do? Preach the Gospel to all the nations. I mean really. Isn't that money that can be better used to help others who don't come close to having a decent home; a decent meal; a decent winter coat. I wonder...how much more house is needed? When more needs to be done in the Kingdom?
Rehab you and I have a gift that is so rare...a humble man and woman of God...we have our very own Elijah's and Elisha's.
You're my precious little sister for always...
I hear you and I hear the others too. Guess what? So do you. (((( hugs ))))
togethernessinchrist said:
You called me 'Mrs. Shimmie' Oh this is too funny. I'm gonna 'run' with it and make the field goal.
I just have to be 'found' by Mr. Shimmie...
This is too funny.Your really do have it 'togetherinChrist'. First, I'm 'Black by Default'
and now 'Mrs. Shimmie"....Girl, you really made my day... ((( hugs ))))
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tmichelle said:
Ok... I want to be understood as well so allow me to be very clear about a couple of things. I don't see anything wrong with asking because every organized entity on the planet (including religion) ask members of its society for things to survive (whatever those things may be, but usually the one thing that any organized/civilized society asks for is money).
People do what they want to do. They BUY what they WANT and BEG for what they NEED. The simple thing for all of us to do is to SEEK THE LORD about giving in the offering. And why stay at a church where that continues to happen and it doesn't sit right with one's spirit?
It has yet to be (scientifically) demonstrated to me how the "wealth" of the pastor automatically equates to the "poverty" of the people? One person's excessive might be another person's poverty. Who makes one person's estimation of excessive-ness (is that a word?) more credible than the other? I am not advocating for the pastor to fleece the flock. I am not saying that at all. And sooner or later the people will "speak with their feet" and leave that church.
BlkManWithSomeSense
New Member
We all know that there is considerable ambiguity in the word. Thats a good thing because such open interpretation of it's principals create the flexibility to "update" yet maintain our beliefs as times change and we continue to evolve. However, in the wrong hands, such ambiguities would be a playground for a devils' advocate. It is important that we not only protect our existence and effectiveness as Christians but also against those who would pervert or manipulate the spiritual intent of our ministry.
Relaxer, you asked "who" makes the determination of what is just and what is not pertaining to the estimation of excess. As you know, there is no one human authority. I personally feel we ALL share the authority to make such a determination. Anyone who claims Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior is immediately enabled with the right to question the direction of our leadership to insure we are staying the course. We are a body of people who are governed and led by the holy spirit and every day we walk in faith and not by sight. Our spirit leads us in all decisions and interpretations and so we must act accordingly when faced with moments where we see no obvious wrong but our spirit is nonetheless uneased.
I am personally unaccustomed to pastors who are also businessmen. I have seen businessmen become deacons and other officers of the church but usually the pastor's position is full time and he dedicates himself fully to the betterment of his congregation. (I know there are some pastors who own business but thats usually because he leads a very small congregation that cannot afford to sustain him financially but once the numbers reach a level, at some point he commits full time.)
If the pastor runs a business while he is in term, is that not a possible conflict? Even if thats not deemed a conflict, what image is it sending? Images are important in the ministry. The image of a virtuous woman. The image of a being saved. The image of unification. We Christians, of all people, know the importance of projecting a proper image but I fear many are straying away from spiritual intuition and relying on obvious errors in judgment. How likely is that to happen? I feel it does send a mixed message when the pastor is 'flaunting his wealth', preaching humility but throwing guilt trips on church members for not giving more.
I remember asking the kids who did they consider great men in the ministry. My son said " TD Jakes is a great man (pause)and his Black Expedition with the tint windows is the Bomb! When you gonna get a suit like his?" My daughter said " I like the black muscle man who talks (Eddie Long) because he's a good speaker." Granted their ages are just 13 and 11 but there is no better truth than through the eyes of babes.
Relaxer, you asked "who" makes the determination of what is just and what is not pertaining to the estimation of excess. As you know, there is no one human authority. I personally feel we ALL share the authority to make such a determination. Anyone who claims Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior is immediately enabled with the right to question the direction of our leadership to insure we are staying the course. We are a body of people who are governed and led by the holy spirit and every day we walk in faith and not by sight. Our spirit leads us in all decisions and interpretations and so we must act accordingly when faced with moments where we see no obvious wrong but our spirit is nonetheless uneased.
I am personally unaccustomed to pastors who are also businessmen. I have seen businessmen become deacons and other officers of the church but usually the pastor's position is full time and he dedicates himself fully to the betterment of his congregation. (I know there are some pastors who own business but thats usually because he leads a very small congregation that cannot afford to sustain him financially but once the numbers reach a level, at some point he commits full time.)
If the pastor runs a business while he is in term, is that not a possible conflict? Even if thats not deemed a conflict, what image is it sending? Images are important in the ministry. The image of a virtuous woman. The image of a being saved. The image of unification. We Christians, of all people, know the importance of projecting a proper image but I fear many are straying away from spiritual intuition and relying on obvious errors in judgment. How likely is that to happen? I feel it does send a mixed message when the pastor is 'flaunting his wealth', preaching humility but throwing guilt trips on church members for not giving more.
I remember asking the kids who did they consider great men in the ministry. My son said " TD Jakes is a great man (pause)and his Black Expedition with the tint windows is the Bomb! When you gonna get a suit like his?" My daughter said " I like the black muscle man who talks (Eddie Long) because he's a good speaker." Granted their ages are just 13 and 11 but there is no better truth than through the eyes of babes.
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cocoberry10
Well-Known Member
BlkManWithSomeSense said:
Very well said. I guess I don't have a problem with a pastor having his own business outside the church. However, many of these pastors are running "businesses" within the church. Like it's Jesus, Inc.
Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that there is a business side to church, and without organization, a church can't be run efficiently. But it seems like everything these days is for sale, or comes with a price. There are churches that won't marry you or bury you, if you don't tithe in their church. I would like to know the biblical reference that makes this okay, b/c I scratch my head at the thought. I could even see if they charged a fee for use of their building (I mean you are using heat, lights, energy, etc.). But refusing to marry or bury you b/c you don't tithe!? What would Jesus say? What would Jesus do?
I admit that even I've found myself feeling "guilty," like I'm not giving enough financially in my church, even when I am tithing.
But tying this back into the topic (about Black women only looking for Black men), I have another theory on how the church may be "pushing" Black men away. It's only one reason.
After speaking with some more people, it seems some Black men see these pastors as modern day "pimps," especially Eddie Long with his "muscle shirts."
Also, these pastors get up and preach, knowing they have all kinds of dirt in their pasts (and some in their present lives
). Many of these pastors have divorced, have fathered children out of wedlock (even after becoming pastors), are closeted homosexuals, and do all other kinds of things. I'm not preaching against any of the above, but if you were a Black man who didn't grow up with an example of a man, and you go to church looking for a Godly man in your pastor, and you find the same "filth" you find in the streets, wouldn't you not want to stay? Just food for thought (sorry for the run-on sentences, but luckily this isn't English class!)
BlkManWithSomeSense
New Member
cocoberry10 said:Very well said. I guess I don't have a problem with a pastor having his own business outside the church. However, many of these pastors are running "businesses" within the church. Like it's Jesus, Inc.
Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that there is a business side to church, and without organization, a church can't be run efficiently. But it seems like everything these days is for sale, or comes with a price. There are churches that won't marry you or bury you, if you don't tithe in their church. I would like to know the biblical reference that makes this okay, b/c I scratch my head at the thought. I could even see if they charged a fee for use of their building (I mean you are using heat, lights, energy, etc.). But refusing to marry or bury you b/c you don't tithe!? What would Jesus say? What would Jesus do?
I admit that even I've found myself feeling "guilty," like I'm not giving enough financially in my church, even when I am tithing.
But tying this back into the topic (about Black women only looking for Black men), I have another theory on how the church may be "pushing" Black men away. It's only one reason.
After speaking with some more people, it seems some Black men see these pastors as modern day "pimps," especially Eddie Long with his "muscle shirts."
Also, these pastors get up and preach, knowing they have all kinds of dirt in their pasts (and some in their present lives
I dont feel guilty about what I give to the church because I give what I can. Like someone once told me, " If I gave the church my light bill money, would they send a few members over to my house with some candles and sing Koombaya with me?"..LOL
Jesus Inc.... I'm going to remember that..LOL. But theres much truth in what you said. Commercialism has really invaded churches and as soon as someone says something about it, the response is " show me where it says in the bible that the church cant have a full restaurant, coffee shop, bakery, bookstore on it's property". It is quite a battle.
Many of the black men I know who do not attend church refer to the images projected. It's too conflicting. One of my friends said, " How is the church gonna help me with my identity if it doesnt know it's own?". I had no response.
Lastly, as for the pastors who have "dirt" going on in their lives. I have a problem with that as well. It wouldnt be so bad if they repented their past and found redemption through their close relationship with the gospel. Instead, they continue on until a scandal breaks out and they are exposed and then here comes the press conferences with sad faces, pouting lips and a display of humility not shown since they were 15 years and received the keys to their first car.
Rev. Rufus Daliyuh: " Lawd forgive me.. I was in a dark place. I had tunnel vision and when I reached out.. there was nothing there but legs- uh I mean salvation"
.. uh huh...
.I just dont think we can be passive anymore about such things. They count on us to be docile and instantly forgiving. Our passiveness has already lost us so much ground on important moral issues that it will take YEARS to get back where we were. It's a different world and you cant just see blasphamy and grab the holy book and just pray silently " da blood.. da blood.....". We have to challenge our leaders and say " To lead .. you MUST take your position seriously or we will hold you accountable. The images you project to your flock must be as clear, consistant and just." I can never tell whether Eddie Long is going to preach the Gospel or lead the congregation in a session of 'Holy Tae Bo... the anointed remix '
*sigh*.. sorry..LOL.. Must be Friday.
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BlkManWithSomeSense said:
"Who do 'men' say that I am?.............."
It shouldn't be the above.
Excellent message, BMWSS.
'Man of God', You truly brought this message 'home' with the children. Because if this is what they 'see', we're in trouble...'The Church is in serious trouble; for our children are being mislead by the wrong vessels.
It's one thing for the world (the devil) to mislead them. Afterall, it's expected and we can surely admonish our 'babies' against the ways of the world and satan's devices.
But how do we 'protect' our children from the 'good guys' (our spiritual leaders in the forefront) who are doing not so good? We teach them to honor our Pastors and men/women who minister the word of God. But how do we interject the 'no-no's' and still keep the line of respect in its perspective?
What a confusing message to our budding seedlings and branches (our babies) to reject the world, yet respect the minister who supports the world.
We as parents have a big job on our hands....Big job. The wrong waters are seeping under the bridge and circling around the feet and ankles of our children. And who has never known a child who didn't like to play in a puddle of water? I'm one of them....
BMWSS, thank you for opening our eyes.
BlkManWithSomeSense said:
Lastly, as for the pastors who have "dirt" going on in their lives. I have a problem with that as well. It wouldnt be so bad if they repented their past and found redemption through their close relationship with the gospel. Instead, they continue on until a scandal breaks out and they are exposed and then here comes the press conferences with sad faces, pouting lips and a display of humility not shown since they were 15 years and received the keys to their first car.
Rev. Rufus Daliyuh: " Lawd forgive me.. I was in a dark place. I had tunnel vision and when I reached out.. there was nothing there but legs- uh I mean salvation" uh huh...
As long as they don't get caught, why stop? Their reasoning is to continue until they have to stop....
Now! Go the car, crack the window and don't touch any of the buttons. Just sit there for a while and think...don't laugh...just think. And when you apologize to Eddie's muscles, you can come back and play.
Man, you are too funny.
BlkManWithSomeSense said:
Addressing the points in bold....
As human beings sharing the planet, those of the dominant culture (be it dominant by race, religion, sexuality, education level, and so on) are usually the ones who determine what is acceptable...NORMAL, shall we say? So does this play out in the same form and fashion with regard to the church? Actually, it has...to a great DETRIMENTand DISSERVICE to the institutional/organized church and, more importantly, to the (spiritual) body of Christ.
What scripture would you use to support this point: "...enabled with the right to question the direction of our leadership to insure we are staying the course."?
The Bible admonishes believers to OBEY them that have rule over you. Hebrews 13:17 (KJV): Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (NIV)
Is it BLIND rule? Of course not. The Bible also says to KNOW them that labor among you. 1 Thessalonians 5:11:13: Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. (NIV).
So if one has questions about the leader and the way the leader is doing things, I think it's ok to have questions. But you don't necessarily tell them WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT. My pastor says the church that the Lord put him in charge of isn't a democracy. We don't get a "vote". It is what it is. People have a choice to vote with their feet. And that's all good. But why isn't there a vote, because HE (my pastor, just like EVERY pastor) has to GIVE AN ACCOUNT TO GOD for how they led the flock.
Second point about the pastors with businesses: Let me be clear. My pastor is in full-time ministry. He doesn't WORK ANOTHER JOB. He's not punching a clock at Ford Motor Company. He does have entrepreneurial interests. He is a business OWNER with employees. God's work comes FIRST and FOREMOST. And think about it this way: at our church we are taught about GENERATING MULTIPLE STREAMS OF INCOME to not only live well, but also to be a blessing to the Kingdom of God. Salvation is free, but it takes money to spread the gospel across this GLOBE. And more real saved folk need more money to give toward spreading the gospel. And this can be done in many ways....
Third point about pastors and terms: well, I've only been at two churches my whole life and in both of those situations, the pastors are in their positions until they decide not to be there or until the Lord raptures us. It's not a conflict for me unless they allow the business to take them away from the Lord's work (just as with ANY OF US). And as far as how many houses the pastor should have or how many cars. Again, speaking about my own pastor: he can drive a PLATINUM PHANTOM and have 10 homes and a jet and an island off of Hawaii and I would not have one problem with it. Why? Because he's a man of integrity. I don't worship my pastor or anything like that. I've explained how I feel about my spiritual parents. I would know that the Lord blessed my pastor with the means (legally, not through stealing or "misdirecting" the tithes and offerings) to get that car. I mean when you think about it, it's kind of oxymoronic: first it's said that the pastor is stealing the tithes and offerings, but then it's said that the congregation is poor...so how could the pastor get all this stuff from the "poor" church folk if they ain't giving 'cause they ain't got no money (goodness, I done switched to ebonics mode!).
Bottom line: the Bible says that the poor will always be with us. Matthew 26:11; Mark 14:7; John 12:8. The Bible also says that when you give unto the poor, you lend unto the Lord (Proverbs 19:17): Here's the actual scripture: 17He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again (KJV). Another translation: He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.
So maybe some of these people who have some stuff have been LENDING to the LORD by GIVING UNTO THE POOR. Maybe some of these pastors have been doing right by God's people and the Lord is blessing them.
As far as image and the children are concerned, the first place to look to are the PARENTS and what values they are exposing and rehearsing to them about what's most important.
I'm convinced that when I am faithful and obedient and flow in my God-given purpose, TRUST: I believe that the Lord will be just fine with me living, eating, driving, flying, birthing, smelling, and tasting REAL, REAL, REAL GOOD!
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To follow up on the point about "great men in ministry". What is meant by great? Big? Noticeable? Popular?
I will say (admit) this though: some years back (before I knew who Bishop Long was), I went with my mom to hear him at a church he was visiting. So we go and the service starts and he's preaching and he takes off his suit jacket and I cannot lie: I just stopped listening to what he was saying. I think I was shocked on a number of levels: 1) that he took is jacket off and his arms weren't covered and 2) he had those big muscles. I just didn't know how to manage all that in my head. And I wasn't lusting after him or anything like that, I was just like um...
... I just had not encounted the situation like that before.
I will say (admit) this though: some years back (before I knew who Bishop Long was), I went with my mom to hear him at a church he was visiting. So we go and the service starts and he's preaching and he takes off his suit jacket and I cannot lie: I just stopped listening to what he was saying. I think I was shocked on a number of levels: 1) that he took is jacket off and his arms weren't covered and 2) he had those big muscles. I just didn't know how to manage all that in my head. And I wasn't lusting after him or anything like that, I was just like um...
... I just had not encounted the situation like that before.
RelaxerRehab said:To follow up on the point about "great men in ministry". What is meant by great? Big? Noticeable? Popular?
I will say (admit) this though: some years back (before I knew who Bishop Long was), I went with my mom to hear him at a church he was visiting. So we go and the service starts and he's preaching and he takes off his suit jacket and I cannot lie: I just stopped listening to what he was saying. I think I was shocked on a number of levels: 1) that he took is jacket off and his arms weren't covered and 2) he had those big muscles. I just didn't know how to manage all that in my head. And I wasn't lusting after him or anything like that, I was just like um...
Oh Jesus!Something must me wrong with me. Because I never really noticed Bishop Long's muscles until it was posted a little while back in one of our threads by a precious member who said he was making tnings harder for her.
Now I understand why he always says, "Now....'watch this' , watch this"
*sigh* shaking my head and laughing like crazy over here.
How did I miss this man's muscles.... HOW ?
After all this time and I've been missing out.
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cocoberry10
Well-Known Member
Shimmie Now I understand why he always says said:'watch this' , watch this" [/B]
*sigh* shaking my head and laughing like crazy over here.
When I just read the bolded part, I had this haunting vision of him (I've only seen him on tv) saying "watch this, watch this," while his pec muscles fluttered. You know how men in muscle shirts flex their pec muscles. God forgive me. I'm not attracted to this man or anything like that, but it is very distracting. I know it shouldn't be, but sometimes when I see him on tv it does seem like he tries to "move his muscles."
I don't care so much about that, b/c usually his messages are good, so I'm not too distracted. I just hope he's not one of those we hear about in the news that had an affair with one of his female parishoners, b/c she couldn't focus on the sermon and instead was "overtaken" by his muscles.
But the above is a good example of how both men and women should be aware of their "attire" in church. It's nice to know that it's not just women's "dress" that can be distracting in church. In fact, I guess any of these pastors who come to church with bling bling jewelry and furs could be distracting. What's next, crunked out grills with the ministers names written in platinum and diamonds (i.e. gold teeth)!
cocoberry10 said:When I just read the bolded part, I had this haunting vision of him (I've only seen him on tv) saying "watch this, watch this," while his pec muscles fluttered. You know how men in muscle shirts flex their pec muscles. God forgive me. I'm not attracted to this man or anything like that, but it is very distracting. I know it shouldn't be, but sometimes when I see him on tv it does seem like he tries to "move his muscles."
I don't care so much about that, b/c usually his messages are good, so I'm not too distracted. I just hope he's not one of those we hear about in the news that had an affair with one of his female parishoners, b/c she couldn't focus on the sermon and instead was "overtaken" by his muscles.
But the above is a good example of how both men and women should be aware of their "attire" in church. It's nice to know that it's not just women's "dress" that can be distracting in church. In fact, I guess any of these pastors who come to church with bling bling jewelry and furs could be distracting. What's next, crunked out grills with the ministers names written in platinum and diamonds (i.e. gold teeth)!
Oh Lord!
I can't stop laughing about this. BMWSS started it... He's still sitting in the car in 'time-out'. You know, I really don't think Bishop Eddie is aware. He's just 'flaunting'. Muscles have never impressed me for some reason. I don't know. (shugs)
But you are so right about our dressing in the Church. Do you know that I will not even 'dance' in church. I'm very reserved and stuck up. Prim and proper ... (yeah... right
). But you get my drift. I'm just careful. We love Bishop Eddie though. I really do love his messages. And I thank God that both he and his brother were totally healed from prostate cancer (it's been 2 years almost). Praise God whose still God even when we don't behave ourselves... Praise Him.
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