I can't imagine.....

[CoilyFields]

CoilyFields, thanks for your response.

In Phillippians 4:8, God tells us to "Fix your thoughts on what is true and good and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely, and dwell on the fine, good things in others. Think about all you can praise God for and be glad about."

An evil action begins with a single thought. Allowing your mind to dwell on lust, envy, hate, or revenge will lead to sin. When you focus on evil, it will defile you. In other words, while we have been born into this sinful body, we must resist its temptations and make our sinful body suffer and depend on the Spirit of God. Being born into a sinful body and knowing that Jesus was the only sinless man to ever walk the earth doesn't give us a license to keep on sinning.

It sure doesnt! Should we sin because grace abounds...GOd forbid! All of these scriptures are there to guide us on how to live a holy life. And we have to be proactive in refraining from sin. But this does not preclude the fact that there will never be another person to walk this earth that does not ever sin. ONce again...this does NOT mean that we get a pass and are not held accountable for our sins.

Maybe Im not understanding youre premiss...are you saying that if you are a christian/saved and you commit a sin...then you really arent a christian/saved?

 

[Crown]

David sinned with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11. He repented in chapter 12. In chapter 13, it talks about David's son Amnon raping his own sister Tamar. Then David's other son, Absalom murdered Amnon. It didn't say David committed any sin with his children. His family just started to suffer as a consequence of his past sin. God told David that murder would be a constant threat in his family, his family would rebel, and someone else would sleep with his wives.

I was agreeing with Nymphe.
David did not act like the king and a father in this situation.

I did not read all the thread, but maybe it could be better to define what is a sin.

 

[Aviah]

Crown and Aviah,

I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

I just don't buy the fact that Christians who have the Spirit of God don't choose to sin. If a Christian isn't choosing to sin, then what are they doing? Just making innocent little mistakes in the name of Jesus? I don't think so. Any action we do, we choose to do it consciously.

How can one determine for themselves if they have the Spirit of God in them? Just by feeling bad from a sin? What if you feel bad about the sin temporarily, and a few days or weeks or months later, you do the sin again?

How can a Christian's heart still be right with God when they sin? The Bible says our hearts can be deceitful. Are you really sorry and remorseful if you return to sin? Sin breaks fellowship with God, doesn't it?

How can being holy and righteous include evil wicked sin? Just by believing in Jesus?

What is continual habitual sin? Someone said everyone sins everyday. Isn't that continual habitual sin? No matter what, people do things whether right or wrong because they choose to do it. We can't blame Satan or our sinful fleshly nature from Adam for everything. Like you said, we have free will. Christians are using their free will to sin sometimes. Is that the right thing to do? I just don't think so. There's no such thing as a carnal minded Christian... you're either a carnal minded person or a Christian, you can't be both.

Of course Christians choose to sin. Just because we accept Christ doesn't mean that the fact that we know of evil, like to please the flesh or are simply imperfect human beings changes. I'm not sure if you're thinking that there should be a transformation into perfection as soon as you say "I do" to God... And yes, I believe that it is still possible to make mistakes though you are saved. Unfortunately life is not presented to us in little black and white sections where choices are relayed to us slowly one at a time and we are given time to think about it in absence of emotion, circumstance, worldly influence, etc. Sometimes we do things spur of the moment (for example hit back if someone hits you) its not as simple as saying I am going to sin against God now, sometimes, if we're real God is the furthest one from our thoughts at those points in time. Somethings I don't think we can help like sinful thoughts, sometimes, out of nowhere things do pop into your mind, and as quick as you can rebuke yourself for it, its already done. I think the problem with those may be to deliberately, continuously, unrepentantly, focus on those types of thoughts without any intention of stopping knowing fully well that they are wrong.

As for knowing whether someone has the Spirit of God, I think its not only about the fruits of the spirit, though the Bible does say that you will know them by their fruits, but I think its knowing when He's talking to you (IMHO), just recognizing His presence working in you, correcting you, warning you, guiding you etc. Guilt of course is temporary and can be felt by anyone who has any set of morals. Guilt does not determine whether you have the Spirit in you, though it may be an indication in some circumstances. To me its like asking how you are sure that your friend is next to you talking to you, there's no way to explain it to someone who has no eyes, ears, tactile sense, etc. Its just something you begin to know.

I don't think anyone is saying that it is okay, or right to sin all the time, but I think we agree in saying that if you sin once in your lifetime after recieveing Christ that there is no hope for you and whatever grace and mercy that the Bible claims God gives is null and voiderplexed.

Before I continue, I need to ask this, just to be clear- Are you expecting/ thinking it should be the case that we become perfect (never sinning again) from the point that we accept Christ?

 

[Poohbear]

Maybe Im not understanding youre premiss...are you saying that if you are a christian/saved and you commit a sin...then you really arent a christian/saved?

Before I continue, I need to ask this, just to be clear- Are you expecting/ thinking it should be the case that we become perfect (never sinning again) from the point that we accept Christ?

Yes to both questions...

Just think... why do you have so many people calling Christians hypocrites when they do something wrong? Even Christians themselves are calling others hypocrites or judging their salvation based on their actions.

That's why I question whether or not I'm a Christian because I still sin sometimes. If there's a God or a Jesus, he cannot be pleased with me or anyone that does any sin in the Bible. He does not condone sin at all.

I just feel like if we are going to keep on sinning til we die, what's the point of even believing and trusting in a Jesus that supposedly saved you FROM sin? You're not really saved from sin if you keep dippin' and dabbin' in it every now and then.

The Bible has clear verses about sin in the Book of 1 John. How can we just ignore these verses in light of everything else the Bible says? The Bible contradicts itself in so many ways. That's why there are so many denominations and bible versions, and we're suppose to be in unity.

The Bible even speaks about you can't be lukewarm. Why do we ignore that too?

And there's nonbelievers that are living and behaving more morally than believers. But yet, we are told that a good nonbeliever will go to Hell and and bad believer will go to Heaven just for merely believing in Jesus.

 

[Poohbear]

I did not read all the thread, but maybe it could be better to define what is a sin.

We all know what sin is. It's any willful transgression against God's will, a wrongdoing.

When God gives us new life, sin's power is broken. Sin-loving nature is buried. You are no longer under sin's control. When God gives us a new nature, you share His new life. You look upon your old sin nature as dead and unresponsive, and instead be alive to God. When God gives us new freedom, you do not let sin control you. You give yourselves completely to God. You are free. You submit yourselves to obey Christ in perfect freedom.

I feel like that's what being a Christian is all about. And God lays that out in Romans 6.

I know some of you will come back in here and try to take up for sin and say "That's just not possible. We have sinful bodies, blah blah blah..." Well, then maybe you don't have a new life or a new nature in Christ Jesus. Maybe you need to rate your heart's obedience. We can't be halfhearted. God says we should be wholehearted.

 

[HoneyA]

And there's nonbelievers that are living and behaving more morally than believers.

I said this to someone the other day and people from religions and beliefs other than Christianity who are living and behaving more morally too. I understand exactly where you are coming from and there's nothing wrong with posing questions. In light of everything I see and hear and what I see in myself and in other Christians, I am wondering if it wouldn't just be better to strive to be the best person that I can be from where I stand, help others when and where I can, be uplifting and positive and call it a day. If we are honest with ourselves there are too many contradictions, too many scriptures taken out of context and too many interpretations. I'm just musing...

 

[Poohbear]

I said this to someone the other day and people from religions and beliefs other than Christianity who are living and behaving more morally too. I understand exactly where you are coming from and there's nothing wrong with posing questions. In light of everything I see and hear and what I see in myself and in other Christians, I am wondering if it wouldn't just be better to strive to be the best person that I can be from where I stand, help others when and where I can, be uplifting and positive and call it a day. If we are honest with ourselves there are too many contradictions, too many scriptures taken out of context and too many interpretations. I'm just musing...

I agree.

There's some Christians who believe Jesus wasn't God or don't believe in the notion of Trinity. Others do.

There's some Christians who don't believe in women pastors. Others do.

There's some Christians who don't believe in once saved always saved. Others do.

There's some Christians who don't believe in the full immersion in water for baptism. Others do.

I could go on! And every Christian has Bible scriptures to support their stance. And some of them even use the same scriptures to support different stances.

And right now, to be completely honest, I don't know WHAT to believe anymore when it comes to the different fundamentals of Christianity. I have taken some stances on Christian issues before, but to be honest, I cannot take these stances anymore because of the contradictions.

And I agree with you HoneyA that I'm just going to strive to be the best person I can be without living in fear to man's standards.

 

[Poohbear]

Oh where is Shimmie when we need her! lol

For what? Shimmie is a nice woman, but she is not some divine higher power with all the answers and truth to everything.

 

[Renovating]

Of course Christians choose to sin. Just because we accept Christ doesn't mean that the fact that we know of evil, like to please the flesh or are simply imperfect human beings changes. I'm not sure if you're thinking that there should be a transformation into perfection as soon as you say "I do" to God... And yes, I believe that it is still possible to make mistakes though you are saved. Unfortunately life is not presented to us in little black and white sections where choices are relayed to us slowly one at a time and we are given time to think about it in absence of emotion, circumstance, worldly influence, etc. Sometimes we do things spur of the moment (for example hit back if someone hits you) its not as simple as saying I am going to sin against God now, sometimes, if we're real God is the furthest one from our thoughts at those points in time. Somethings I don't think we can help like sinful thoughts, sometimes, out of nowhere things do pop into your mind, and as quick as you can rebuke yourself for it, its already done. I think the problem with those may be to deliberately, continuously, unrepentantly, focus on those types of thoughts without any intention of stopping knowing fully well that they are wrong.

As for knowing whether someone has the Spirit of God, I think its not only about the fruits of the spirit, though the Bible does say that you will know them by their fruits, but I think its knowing when He's talking to you (IMHO), just recognizing His presence working in you, correcting you, warning you, guiding you etc. Guilt of course is temporary and can be felt by anyone who has any set of morals. Guilt does not determine whether you have the Spirit in you, though it may be an indication in some circumstances. To me its like asking how you are sure that your friend is next to you talking to you, there's no way to explain it to someone who has no eyes, ears, tactile sense, etc. Its just something you begin to know.

I don't think anyone is saying that it is okay, or right to sin all the time, but I think we agree in saying that if you sin once in your lifetime after recieveing Christ that there is no hope for you and whatever grace and mercy that the Bible claims God gives is null and voiderplexed.

Before I continue, I need to ask this, just to be clear- Are you expecting/ thinking it should be the case that we become perfect (never sinning again) from the point that we accept Christ?

Aviah, you expressed my thoughts perfectly. There are too many other factors involved in our lives for us to become perfect after salvation, especially emotions. Without emotions, I'm sure we would all be able to approach every situation with logic. For example the sin of gluttony, we all know it's wrong, but how many Christian women have indulged in ice cream for comfort after a heartbreak? They were not eating for nourishment and it can be considered gluttony. This issue of sin is just too complexed to say we should be perfect after we accept Christ.

After salvation your intentions and the meditation of your heart are different.

 

[Renovating]

I agree.

And I agree with you HoneyA that I'm just going to strive to be the best person I can be without living in fear to man's standards.

I agree and I think this is all we can do. ( along with constant prayer, faith, and ask God to give US discernment to interpret the word)

 

[Poohbear]

I agree and I think this is all we can do. ( along with constant prayer, faith, and ask God to give US discernment to interpret the word)

How can I ask God -- who is suppose to be this Divine Being, this Holy Spirit, that I cannot see, hear, nor touch -- for discernment on a word that was written by man?

Yes, the Bible says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

But guess what? Man wrote that in there!

And guess what it says in those verses that Christians clearly ignore: "...for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect..."

It does not say so that the man of God may be a believing sinner.

Is man actually this God that is written about in the Bible?

 

[Poohbear]

Better yet, read at the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 3:

2 Timothy 3:1-17 (King James Version)

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In many parts of the world today, it does not seem very difficult to be a Christian--people aren't jailed for reading the Bible or executed for preaching Christ. In this chapter, Paul list behaviors in the last days which describe our society--even many Christians. There is a comfortableness about superficial Christianity that should cause true Christians to be uncomfortable. Self proclaiming Christians should check their lives against this list. True Christians do not give in to society's pleasures. True Christians stand up against its evil ways by living as God would have His people live.

The form or appearance of godliness includes going to church, knowing Christian doctrine, using Christian cliches, and following a community's Christian traditions. Such practices can make a person look good, but if the inner attitudes of belief, love, and worship are lacking, the outer appearance is meaningless. Paul warns people not to be deceived by people who only appear to be Christians. It may be difficult to distinguish them from true Christians at first, but their lives will give them away. The characteristics that Paul describes in verses 2-4 are unmistakable.

 

[discobiscuits]

For what? Shimmie is a nice woman, but she is not some divine higher power with all the answers and truth to everything.

no, she isn't but she has a kind spirit and when she speaks it is in love. i have yet to see her e-attack me, you or any other person when she disagrees with them. this is not true for other members in the CF. some people may not like or agree with her but Shimmie has a kind, sweet, loving spirit and to me is the closest thing we have on LHCF or the CF to an example of how to love others & live in peace with others. i miss her too for just those reasons. we need her kind, sweet aroma.

 

[discobiscuits]

And right now, to be completely honest, I don't know WHAT to believe anymore when it comes to the different fundamentals of Christianity. I have taken some stances on Christian issues before, but to be honest, I cannot take these stances anymore because of the contradictions.

And I agree with you HoneyA that I'm just going to strive to be the best person I can be without living in fear to man's standards.

i thought it was agreed that the fundamentals are to love god with all your heart, soul, mind, love yourself and love others as yourself (and honor* your parents a commandment w/ promise) and all the rest is debatable & you must be fully convinced in your mind/heart with what you believe within the confines of scripture.

 

[sunnysmyler]

no, she isn't but she has a kind spirit and when she speaks it is in love. i have yet to see her e-attack me, you or any other person when she disagrees with them. this is not true for other members in the CF. some people may not like or agree with her but Shimmie has a kind, sweet, loving spirit and to me is the closest thing we have on LHCF or the CF to an example of how to love others & live in peace with others. i miss her too for just those reasons. we need her kind, sweet aroma.

1Star, I couldn't have said it better myself. I love Shimmie even though I've never met her, all of her post, and responses are written with such Godly wisdom and ALWAY said in love. You can feel the love floating off of the computer screen and that is a true gift from GOD. Ain't her aroma kind and sweet. I love her!:heart2:

Pooh, no need to get defensive, my post was intended to be light hearted, but you had to respond in a funky/snappy way. I realize you are frustrated in your quest for the TRUTH, but slow down sista. I love you and it was not my intention to offend you.

Peace!

 

[CoilyFields]

Poohbear,

Sis it seems like you are having a lot of doubts about not only the christian religion but about God himself. No condemnation here...we need to be sure about what we believe. What particular doubts are plaguing you? Below is a list that I've taken from your posts but please add to them or correct them:

1. Once someone is saved, how is it that they sin again and remain saved (or was ever really saved in the first place)?

2. The Bible seems to contradict itself, and how can be trust it as divinely inspired.

3. Is salvation necessary...meaning arent moral unbelievers better off than immoral believers?


I just want to understand exactly what your questions are.

To the one you answered for me before (if you sin you are not a christian)...Do you believe that Peter, for example, is heaven bound? We have clear instances where Peter sinned After he expressed his faith in Jesus and even after the resurrection. Do you believe that God will turn him away at judgement (i realize that none of us know the final judgement but Im asking according to your beliefs).

 

[Aviah]

Yes to both questions...

Just think... why do you have so many people calling Christians hypocrites when they do something wrong? Even Christians themselves are calling others hypocrites or judging their salvation based on their actions.

That's why I question whether or not I'm a Christian because I still sin sometimes. If there's a God or a Jesus, he cannot be pleased with me or anyone that does any sin in the Bible. He does not condone sin at all.

I just feel like if we are going to keep on sinning til we die, what's the point of even believing and trusting in a Jesus that supposedly saved you FROM sin? You're not really saved from sin if you keep dippin' and dabbin' in it every now and then.

The Bible has clear verses about sin in the Book of 1 John. How can we just ignore these verses in light of everything else the Bible says? The Bible contradicts itself in so many ways. That's why there are so many denominations and bible versions, and we're suppose to be in unity.

The Bible even speaks about you can't be lukewarm. Why do we ignore that too?

And there's nonbelievers that are living and behaving more morally than believers. But yet, we are told that a good nonbeliever will go to Hell and and bad believer will go to Heaven just for merely believing in Jesus.

1 John 5-10
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

From what I understand here, it says in God there is no darkness. Not man. I looked up the word walk in my concordance and it comes from the word shield in the Greek. Think: if we are shielded by the light, or protected by the light and not the darkness etc, the blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin(at least this is my humble understanding). The Bible itself says that if we say we have no sin we are liars. It says here that there is forgiveness when we confess. Obviously God does forgive.

In Hebrews 10:11 it talks about atoning for our sins once and for all (for those that choose to accept this atonement and become saved/walk with Christ/ seek to be renewed daily/seek to love God and obey him more, etc etc however you choose to breakdown a walk with Christ. It talks about salvation by faith, and from what I have come to understand it is that faith that begins to work within us to produce good works. It is not by the works themselves that we are saved. Otherwise its impossible for anyone anywhere to enter heaven. Towards the end it mentions those deliberately rejecting the law of Grace. Its not a law of works only. faith without works is dead, the faith leads to the works, what is missed out God covers with grace at His discretion, we cannot see all of a person's life circumstances to judge the way God can, honestly and fairly. As for who will make heaven, we will see.

11Furthermore, every [human] priest stands [at his altar of service] ministering daily, offering the same sacrifices over and over again, which never are able to strip [from every side of us] the sins [that envelop us] and take them away--

12Whereas this One [Christ], after He had offered a single sacrifice for our sins [that shall avail] for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

13Then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool beneath His feet.(C)

14For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.

15And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,

16This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),

17He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.(D)

18Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin.

19Therefore, brethren, since we have full freedom and confidence to enter into the [Holy of] Holies [by the power and virtue] in the blood of Jesus,

20By this fresh (new) and living way which He initiated and dedicated and opened for us through the separating curtain (veil of the Holy of Holies), that is, through His flesh,

21And since we have [such] a great and wonderful and noble Priest [Who rules] over the house of God,

22Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.

23So let us seize and hold fast and retain without wavering the [c]hope we cherish and confess and our acknowledgement of it, for He Who promised is reliable (sure) and faithful to His word.

24And let us consider and give [d]attentive, continuous care to watching over one another, studying how we may stir up (stimulate and incite) to love and helpful deeds and noble activities,

25Not forsaking or neglecting to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching.

26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
cont'd...

 

[Aviah]

Here is an article I found on what salvation means:

Footnotes:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-doctrine-salvation.html
Question: "What is salvation? What is the Christian doctrine of salvation?"

Answer: Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering. To save is to deliver or protect. The word carries the idea of victory, health, or preservation. Sometimes, the Bible uses the words saved or salvation to refer to temporal, physical deliverance, such as Paul’s deliverance from prison (Philippians 1:19).

More often, the word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).

What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

Who does the saving? Only God can remove sin and deliver us from sin’s penalty (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).

How does God save? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5, 8) and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).

How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.

Article on salvation via faith/works:
http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.


Me again:
All in all PoohBear, I don't know if I'm understanding your perspective on why salvation should be based on works only, why grace goes out the window, and forgiveness is not available according to the way *I THINK* you're seeing it. I noticed you spoke about following after God halfheartedly, you know that as a human being that even when trying full heartedly you're not perfect, even at little man-made assignments. You can't deny bring human/ having flesh as a factor, the Bible itself says that they wrestle. Even Paul said the things that he doesn't want to do, he ends up doing "Oh wretched man that I am, who will ave me from this body of death?" He asks, and responds, Jesus.
IMHO (yes I may be wrong) it seems you wants something different to what you already know, and may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. I am in no way against questioning what we're about (or supposed to be about) but like Anthony Flew says in his book "There is a God" (2004) there must be a premise in any philosophical argument that you must simply take as a given, otherwise the argument never get started.( I'm paraphrasing here, but its like asking what made the universe and then arguing about what the universe really means and why that definition stands and questioning why said reasons justify the definition etc- you never get to the point of even arguing about what created the universe, know what I mean?) The same way you can't dissect every foundational argument/postulation (we can only get so far philosophically like that) there comes a point where you accept something very basic and are able to move from there. I really hope these have helped you, and please try not get overly critical, because it may cause you to look for more problems then trying to find a solution (not saying that you are). Even if we fragmented and dissected something as simple as how do you know that you exist, you would go crazy.
Really HTH in some way...

 

[Aviah]

Better yet, read at the whole chapter of 2 Timothy 3:

2 Timothy 3:1-17 (King James Version)

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In many parts of the world today, it does not seem very difficult to be a Christian--people aren't jailed for reading the Bible or executed for preaching Christ. In this chapter, Paul list behaviors in the last days which describe our society--even many Christians. There is a comfortableness about superficial Christianity that should cause true Christians to be uncomfortable. Self proclaiming Christians should check their lives against this list. True Christians do not give in to society's pleasures. True Christians stand up against its evil ways by living as God would have His people live.

The form or appearance of godliness includes going to church, knowing Christian doctrine, using Christian cliches, and following a community's Christian traditions. Such practices can make a person look good, but if the inner attitudes of belief, love, and worship are lacking, the outer appearance is meaningless. Paul warns people not to be deceived by people who only appear to be Christians. It may be difficult to distinguish them from true Christians at first, but their lives will give them away. The characteristics that Paul describes in verses 2-4 are unmistakable.

Furthermore (this is the last one until PB responds, I promise)
Something I hope you can appreciate. The attributes above are definitely to live by, it is written. I agree there are many "pretend Christians". God said you will know by their fruits, and what He told me personally about fruit is that it does not form overnight. Fruit, is something that under a multiple of factors over a period of time is formed. A fruit may grow consistently for a time and miss a day, this does not make it a bad fruit. However bad fruit is consistently wrong and evil deeds- both are intentional.

I'll stop here.

 

[Poohbear]

Thanks Aviah for your responses. I appreciate your time.

So salvation is saved from Hell, not saved from committing sin, correct?

And in my posts, I wasn't saying salvation should be based on works only. I was just saying shouldn't a true Christian not sin anymore if he or she is going to put all their trust in Jesus Christ. And I was getting this from a lady I met who is from the Church of God denomination. But I guess that's wrong too according to this confusing Christian doctrine.

But anyway, I talked to a friend of mine yesterday, and he said there are 7 Dispensations of the Bible, and right now, we are in a Grace Period. He said not all of the Bible applies to today and I can actually agree to that. I have been taking everything literally. I'm going to research these 7 dispensations of the Bible to see if this will help me understand better because what I have been taught, what I have learned, and what I have read for mself doesn't make any sense to me anymore right now.

But I do wonder about something else too... my friend is Apostolic and he believes that no one knows if they're going to heaven. Even if you're saved, you still don't know because it all depends on God's judgement of our lives when the world ends. So that threw me off too. It's like everyone has all these different beliefs about Christianity and I don't know what to believe anymore and it's scary. It just makes me not want to believe in anything.

 

[Poohbear]

Here's a picture of the 7 Dispensations of the Bible:

These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God's method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions: of sin, and of man's responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment, marking his utter failure in every dispensation. Five of these dispensations, or periods of time, have been fulfilled; we are living in the sixth, probably toward its close, and have before us the seventh, and last: the millennium.

1. Man innocent.

"This dispensation extends from the creation of Adam in Genesis 2:7 to the expulsion from Eden. Adam, created innocent and ignorant of good and evil, was placed in the garden of Eden with his wife, Eve, and put under responsibility to abstain from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The dispensation of innocence resulted in the first failure of man, and in its far-reaching effects, the most disastrous. It closed in judgment: "So he drove out the man." See Gen. 1:26; Gen. 2:16,17; Gen. 3:6; Gen. 3:22-24.)"

Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:

Do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."​

​

​

2. Man under conscience.

"By the fall, Adam and Eve acquired and transmitted to the race the knowledge of good and evil. This gave conscience a basis for right moral judgment, and hence the race came under this measure of responsibility -- to do good and eschew evil. The result of the dispensation of conscience, from Eden to the flood (while there was no institution of government and of law), was that "all flesh had corrupted his way on the earth," that "the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually," and God closed the second testing of the natural man with judgment: the flood. See Gen. 3:7, 22; Gen. 6:5,11-12; Gen. 7:11-12, 23.)"

Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:

Do good and do not do evil, or love what is good and hate what is evil.

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.​

​

​

3. Man in authority over the earth.

"Out of the fearful judgment of the flood God saved eight persons, to whom, after the waters were assuaged, He gave the purified earth with ample power to govern it. This, Noah and his descendants were responsible to do. The dispensation of human government resulted, upon the plain of Shinar, in the impious attempt to become independent of God and closed in judgment: the confusion of tongues. (See Gen. 9: 1, 2; Gen. 11: 1-4; Gen. 11:5-8.)"

Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:

Believe God and build an ark.

Genesis 6:16 "You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it [with] lower, second, and third [decks]. 17 "And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which [is] the breath of life; everything that [is] on the earth shall die. 18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.​

​

​

4. Man under promise.

"Out of the dispersed descendants of the builders of Babel, God called one man, Abram, with whom He enters into covenant. Some of the promises to Abram and his descendants were purely gracious and unconditional. These either have been or will yet be literally fulfilled. Other promises were conditional upon the faithfulness and obedience of the Israelites. Every one of these conditions was violated, and the dispensation of promise resulted in the failure of Israel and closed in the judgment of bondage in Egypt."
"The book of Genesis, which opens with the sublime words, "In the beginning God created," closes with, "In a coffin in Egypt." (See Gen. 12:1-3; Gen. 13:14-17; Gen. 15:5; Gen. 26:3; Gen. 28:12-13; Exod. 1: 13-14.)"

Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:​

Believe God's promise.
Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you.​

 

[Poohbear]

(continued)...

5. Man under law.

"Again the grace of God came to the help of helpless man and redeemed the chosen people out of the hand of the oppressor. In the wilderness of Sinai He proposed to them the covenant of law. Instead of humbly pleading for a continued relation of grace, they presumptuously answered: "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." The history of Israel in the wilderness and in the land is one long record of flagrant, persistent violation of the law, and at last, after multiplied warnings, God closed the testing of man by law in judgment: first Israel, and then Judah, were driven out of the land into a dispersion which still continues. A feeble remnant returned under Ezra and Nehemiah, of which, in due time, Christ came: "Born of a woman-made under the law." Both Jews and Gentiles conspired to crucify Him. (See Exod. 19:1-8; 2 Kings 17:1-18; 2 Kings 25: 1 -11; Acts 2:22-23; Acts 7:5152; Rom. 3:19-20; Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3: 10.)"

Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:

Obey God and keep His commandments.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth [is] Mine.


6. Man under grace.

"The sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ introduced the dispensation of pure grace, which means undeserved favor, or God giving righteousness, instead of God requiring righteousness, as under law. Salvation, perfect and eternal, is now freely offered to Jew and Gentile upon the acknowledgment of sin, or repentance, with faith in Christ."

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29). "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47). "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24). "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10:27-28). "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

The predicted result of this testing of man under grace is judgment upon an unbelieving world and an apostate church. (See Luke 17:26-30; Luke 18:8; 2 Thess. 2:7-12; Rev. 3:15-16.)

The first event in the closing of this dispensation will be the descent of the Lord from heaven, when sleeping saints will be raised and, together with believers then living, caught up "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:16-17). Then follows the brief period called "the great tribulation." (See Jer. 30:5-7; Dan. 12:1; Zeph. 1:15-18; Matt. 24:21-22.)

Some teachers number the Tribulation as one of the dispensations, while combining the dispensations of Promise & Law. However, we see the Tribulation as a special period during which human civilization crumbles under the weight of the combined features of its ages long rejection of God. The Lord has limited this period to a short 7 years, to prevent man's self-destruction.

After this the personal return of the Lord to the earth in power and great glory occurs, and the judgments which introduce the seventh, and last dispensation. (See Matt. 25:31-46 and Matt. 24:29- 30.)"

Salvation Gospel in this dispensation:

Confess Jesus as Lord and believe in His resurrection.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


7. Man under the personal reign of Christ.

"After the purifying judgments which attend the personal return of Christ to the earth, He will reign over restored Israel and over the earth for one thousand years. This is the period commonly called the millennium. The seat of His power will be Jerusalem, and the saints, including the saved of the dispensation of grace, namely the church, will be associated with Him in His glory. (See Isa. 2:1-4; Isa. 11; Acts 15:14-17; Rev. 19:11-21; Rev. 20:1-6.

But when Satan is "loosed a little season," he finds the natural heart as prone to evil as ever, and easily gathers the nations to battle against the Lord and His saints, and this last dispensation closes, like all the others, in judgment. The great white throne is set, the wicked dead are raised and finally judged, and then come the "new heaven and a new earth." Eternity is begun. (See Rev. 20:3,7-15; Rev. 21 and 22.)"

 

[Guitarhero]

If I have to worry about whether I am the most perfect or I'll lose my salvation and be cast to hell, then I'd just plain give up. I hope I make it to heaven in the end but I ultimately know that I do not own the keys to the gates. I must strive to perfect this relationship between me and God daily and actually TRUST that He will take me with Him when I die. If I don't believe there can be salvation, what on earth am I doing going to His church then? That would be pointless.

It comes down to this, belief or unbelief, taking a risk or not taking a risk of faith. All around me, there are people clamoring for my supposed salvation with their understanding of the stipulations. Yet, I don't look at them. I look at myself and if, according to my understanding, I do not feel that the scriptures and God are real, then I'm doing myself a disservice by attempting to rationalize something that I am not rationalizing well. So, I take small baby steps and choose to have the faith that, yes, it is true that I can go to heaven. Am I there yet? No. Do I absolutely know I'll get there? No. What I do know is that if I persevere, then I can expect that God will honor His word.

Life takes faith. Sometimes, it's just as simple as taking just one step daily and focusing on that because the rest will come when it's due. So much of the scriptural proof has been given. So, what's left? Either you believe it or you don't believe it. But that was the issue in the beginning before all the rationalization. Not that rationalization and philosophizing and intellectualizing are wrong - no, they are not. But faith is the inextricable component to belief in this judeo-christian God. Aside from all the proofs, it comes down to if one believes and accepts as truth or not.

 

[HoneyA]

If I have to worry about whether I am the most perfect or I'll lose my salvation and be cast to hell, then I'd just plain give up. I hope I make it to heaven in the end but I ultimately know that I do not own the keys to the gates. I must strive to perfect this relationship between me and God daily and actually TRUST that He will take me with Him when I die. If I don't believe there can be salvation, what on earth am I doing going to His church then? That would be pointless.

It comes down to this, belief or unbelief, taking a risk or not taking a risk of faith. All around me, there are people clamoring for my supposed salvation with their understanding of the stipulations. Yet, I don't look at them. I look at myself and if, according to my understanding, I do not feel that the scriptures and God are real, then I'm doing myself a disservice by attempting to rationalize something that I am not rationalizing well. So, I take small baby steps and choose to have the faith that, yes, it is true that I can go to heaven. Am I there yet? No. Do I absolutely know I'll get there? No. What I do know is that if I persevere, then I can expect that God will honor His word.

Life takes faith. Sometimes, it's just as simple as taking just one step daily and focusing on that because the rest will come when it's due. So much of the scriptural proof has been given. So, what's left? Either you believe it or you don't believe it. But that was the issue in the beginning before all the rationalization. Not that rationalization and philosophizing and intellectualizing are wrong - no, they are not. But faith is the inextricable component to belief in this judeo-christian God. Aside from all the proofs, it comes down to if one believes and accepts as truth or not.

I agree with your entire post. The last line is in fact it. No one knows what the absolute truth is. This is where a lot of people miss it.

 

[CoilyFields]

PoohBear,

Im going to have to study these 7 dispensations before I comment on them. But Aviah has summed up what seems to be your struggle...salvation vs. fatih by works

She has explained it so well , so I'll just add my two cents:

Your point: to truly be saved I must have faith plus works and this will equal a sinless life
(as usual correct me if im wrong girl)


We are not perfect in ourselves because we are christians. our righteousness has been imputed to us by Jesus

2 COr 5:21-For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"

The wages of sin =death

in the old testament the way that people kept from reaping the wages of sin was to offer sacrifices (something had to die to take the punishment) their sins were imputed upon the animal

when Jesus came he died once and for all so that we would no longer have to pay the penalty for sin because HE paid it (the ultimate sacrifical lamb). This doesnt mean that we dont die...it means that eternal damnation is not our destiny if we sin.

Not because we (our flesh) is now perfect...but because Jeses has COVERED us with HIS perfection and righteousness. Now we have access to God through Him. While the enemy is accusing us before the throne of God, Jesus is interceding on our behalf (the accusations of the enemy are usually true-we do sin-but Jesus is asking God to forgive us becuase of HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS-nothing we've earned (ie. not sinned so we DESERVE salvation)

Isaiah 43:25-I,even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

So we are not perfect in thought or deed in this world...though we are expected to be blameless...but thats the joy of salvation...we can't earn it or work our way into heaven...its free! But there are definately other rewards in heaven and on this earth for being blameless and having good works.

Does that explain a little? salvation is free and not based on living a sinfree life.
Disclaimer: this does NOT give anyone liscence to go and live any kind of way...the bible has this premis about salvation and ALSO tells us how we need to LIVE Holy

 

[Crown]

I don’t have time to read all the posts so I can’t agree or disagree.

*Don’t forget : salvation and sinfree are two different things.

*Concerning the dispensations, I’ve already seen this. It seems good, but I have problems with dividing in 7 dispensations.
One of my problems : are those periods cumulative?

It can’t be cumulative.
But if so, this means we are still living in innocence…
If it is not cumulative, that means we are no more living in conscience…
We are still living in conscience.

Am I wrong?
Someone can explain, please?

 

[Poohbear]

PoohBear,

Im going to have to study these 7 dispensations before I comment on them. But Aviah has summed up what seems to be your struggle...salvation vs. fatih by works

She has explained it so well , so I'll just add my two cents:

Your point: to truly be saved I must have faith plus works and this will equal a sinless life
(as usual correct me if im wrong girl)

No, that wasn't my point. I have said nothing about works. To me, works is like going to church, reading your Bible, evangelizing, etc. I didn't say we need those in order to have salvation. My point was having faith means putting your complete trust in Jesus Christ to save you FROM your sins. My point was a true Christian shouldn't be sinning all day every day until they die. A sinless life shows you are no longer under sin's control and that you are showing you love God and are obeying him. Nothing to do with works, sinless means doing no more sin. To me, committing sin, practicing, remaining in sin, living in sin, however you want to phrase it doesn't show you believe in Jesus dying for the punishment of your sins for real. But like I said earlier, I don't know anymore. I'm still confused. I'm just in a period of agnosticism right now.

 

[Poohbear]

I don’t have time to read all the posts so I can’t agree or disagree.

*Don’t forget : salvation and sinfree are two different things.

*Concerning the dispensations, I’ve already seen this. It seems good, but I have problems with dividing in 7 dispensations.
One of my problems : are those periods cumulative?

It can’t be cumulative.
But if so, this means we are still living in innocence…
If it is not cumulative, that means we are no more living in conscience…
We are still living in conscience.

Am I wrong?
Someone can explain, please?

Hmmm, I didn't think about whether these periods could be cumulative.

My friend told me we are in the 6th dispensation of "Man under Grace". Jesus fulfilled the Law so we are no longer in the "Man under Law" dispensation, even though some Christians still live by the Law and are advocates of the Law.

But like you said, I would think we are still living in the "Man under Conscience" dispensation too.

And I also wonder about this... why does God put us through all these dispensations just to get mad, judge, and destroy people in the end?

While these dispensations make sense of how the Bible is structured, I just wonder how to apply these dispensations to present day.

 

[makeupgirl]

I don’t have time to read all the posts so I can’t agree or disagree.

*Don’t forget : salvation and sinfree are two different things.

*Concerning the dispensations, I’ve already seen this. It seems good, but I have problems with dividing in 7 dispensations.
One of my problems : are those periods cumulative?

It can’t be cumulative.
But if so, this means we are still living in innocence…
If it is not cumulative, that means we are no more living in conscience…
We are still living in conscience.

Am I wrong?
Someone can explain, please?

We are in the dispensation of grace. My pastor always said that the next step on God's agenda is to take his church home.

 

[Crown]

We are in the dispensation of grace. My pastor always said that the next step on God's agenda is to take his church home.

I know we are under the grace, thank you.
I was asking about the 7 dispensations. Just because we are living in the grace of salvation does not mean we don't have a conscience. Can we agree?
Why separate an age of conscience?