I can't imagine.....

[Aviah]

Thanks Aviah for your responses. I appreciate your time.

So salvation is saved from Hell, not saved from committing sin, correct?

And in my posts, I wasn't saying salvation should be based on works only. I was just saying shouldn't a true Christian not sin anymore if he or she is going to put all their trust in Jesus Christ. And I was getting this from a lady I met who is from the Church of God denomination. But I guess that's wrong too according to this confusing Christian doctrine.



But anyway, I talked to a friend of mine yesterday, and he said there are 7 Dispensations of the Bible, and right now, we are in a Grace Period. He said not all of the Bible applies to today and I can actually agree to that. I have been taking everything literally. I'm going to research these 7 dispensations of the Bible to see if this will help me understand better because what I have been taught, what I have learned, and what I have read for mself doesn't make any sense to me anymore right now.

But I do wonder about something else too... my friend is Apostolic and he believes that no one knows if they're going to heaven. Even if you're saved, you still don't know because it all depends on God's judgement of our lives when the world ends. So that threw me off too. It's like everyone has all these different beliefs about Christianity and I don't know what to believe anymore and it's scary. It just makes me not want to believe in anything.

Love,
The bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. You have to work it out, but not in the absence of God. You cannot always take what everyone says, but God. This is not to say that no one has the true Christian truth but you, but at the end of the day all you can do is your best in Christ. I honestly don't think the God that I know will condemn you for following Him under some mistaken precepts. Again its about the intent of your heart being to live for him and serve him. A natural outworking of growing love for him, you know? Take it slow, take it one question at a time. Your brain sounds like mine sometimes and it can drive me up the wall. I haven't looked at the diagrams and stuff properly, and from what I get at first glance, even if there are these seven phases, all scripture is fitting for understanding, but of course, in context.
I wanted to thank you PB, it made me examine my walk with God more carefully. I'll have to take a look at what you posted more carefully at another time.

 

[deesquest]

Wow! What can I add to this thread? Well I also ventured into the other thread out of curiosity--I found what I thought I would. There are people who have believed in God and been hurt by church people and that turned them off. Then their are others who just can't really believe all this God, Jesus, and Bible stuff is real. It's not logical or rational. Unbelievers have existed down through the ages and there will always be unbelievers until the end of time. Some you may win to Christ, others are like casting pearls before swine. The Bible does say to shake the dust off your feet with some people. All the love of God and concern and love from a Christian will not change that. Some people will go to hell. Not all can be won. It is sad, but true. We can only witness to souls as long as God permits and they will listen. The Holy Spirit can work were we can't.

Salvation really is a simple work of faith. Men have made it complicated because of the many religions they have started. When the apostles began to preach the gospel it was one message, one faith, and one Lord. Now there are thousands of messages, thousands of faiths, and many Lords. When Jesus chose his disciples, they were common men who he called to be saved. But they were not filled with the Holy Ghost because they lacked power to do the complete will of God. They were still carnal. We are aware of their carnal actions. They forsook Jesus during the crucifixion, but after the resurrection they were restored, or saved. Jesus told them to wait for him in Jerusalem for the filling of the Holy Ghost; it was here they received power from God and were changed men. Salvation is the first work of faith. It is a repentance/forsaking of sin-not going back to sinful ways. Sanctification is the second work of faith. It is here that we are set apart and given the Holy Spirit to be able to live a holy and sinfree life. Salvation is God with you, sanctification is God living in you and giving you power to say no to sin and live holy and righteous. Why did we need Jesus to come and die for our sins if we are going to continue kneeling at the altar/bedside and confessing our sin but not repenting? The Old Testament law required sacrifice that pushed sin ahead one year. Every year the Jews did this until the coming of Christ. He came to do away with this-He was the perfect sacrifice so that we need not continue bringing lambs and goats. He died once for sin and so should we die; die to sin.

Can we know if we sin? yes. Can we know we please God? yes. Can we say no to sin every time? yes.

The question isn't really can you not sin, the question is do you want to stop sinning. There are many sins that if people are honest they don't want to give up. We know that God gives the Holy Ghost and it is power. Power to do what?

A powerful Christian life is a life in which we are not like sinners. We are different, we should be different. That doesn't mean we a better, we are just saved sons and daughters of God. We should point the way to a different life, a better life; not a life mixed with sin that we try to explain away to the non-believer. We are in the world, but not of the world. If we do as the world are we not of the world? Can we honestly and confidently tell a sinner, "I lied, but God will forgive me because he knows my heart, but you're condemned because you haven't accepted Jesus in your heart? Huh!? Really now. If you're counting on confessing and repenting of that sin later, what happens if you don't get a chance to repent? But did you really repent or confess? If you're doing the same thing over you confessed-you didn't repent. Are we as Christians living all we know in the word of God or are we living what preacher or pastor said even though we know that's not what the Bible or spirit of God says? Also are we living the way WE THINK is right instead of living the word? God is more exacting than we'd like to believe. Read it for yourself. He doesn't accept sloppy living, but he counts every jot and every tittle. Does God really know whats in your heart? Yes he does. And when we break his laws and commandments he sure does know what is in our heart. If someone says they love you but are continually unfaithful, do you believe them? No you don't. Their actions tell you they don't love you-they love themselves. Why do we think God understands unfaithfulness to him when we fornicate(sin) with the devil? What does it mean to be Christ-like if we have the devil popping up in our life?

I know this is all over the place, but these are serious thoughts that were on my heart and mind. My desire isn't to hurt, but help us to truly think what it means to be saved and Christian. We all want to make it to heaven and must be honest with ourselves. Sometimes we have to take a long hard look at our walk with Christ and examine to see if we are in the faith and not just living what the preacher says or our "church" says, but what the word says. Does your life mirror the word of God? Honesty and faith are the beginning.

 

[Poohbear]

My thoughts exactly at what Deesquest just said.

That's why I feel like I am not a true Christian because I am still "dippin' and dabbin'" in sin. I have posted stuff in the Atheist thread because that's how I really feel. There are several messages given by Christian churches and it's ridiculous. It turns me off from Christianity as a whole. I feel like you're either 100% non-Christian or 100% Christian. There's no lukewarmness or partial-heartedness, or being in-between. Being in-between is against God. I may not be committing the terrible sins that people think of, but it is still sin, against God. I'm not keeping His commandments when I sin. How can I truly say I love Jesus when I am doing the very sins that he took the punishment for on the cross?

And Deesquest gave a good example about an unfaithful partner. If your partner is unfaithful to you and has sex with someone else other than you, you are going to feel betrayed and you will not feel loved. You will dump him. Some people forgive but most women will dump a cheating spouse.

Look how God has destroyed people for their wickedness and backsliding and sins throughout the Bible? Just think if these dispensations have some validity to them, wouldn't you think he will destroy you for the sins you continually do every now and then? Bringing Jesus to this world was God's way to show us how to live the way God wants us to live. Jesus was God made in the flesh. God tried giving us this Law but saw that we couldn't be saved by just merely keeping the Laws. So He gave us Jesus as our Lord and Savior to be dead to sin and alive in Him.

 

[southernstyle]

Wow, this thread has been real food for thought, and I appreciate all of the views expressed here. I'd just like to add my thoughts.
I've been taught (and believe) that when Christ came to redeem man, He redeemed our spirits, that part of us that His Spirit communes with. For those of us who've accepted Him as Lord and Savior, we take it on faith that this is a done deal which has been done by Him. He did not come to redeem our flesh and so for me what that means is that on this side of heaven, my flesh will always be fallen no matter what. Even if I never sin (which aint gonna happen because fallen flesh can't help it, even mere thoughts that I cannot control are sometimes sinful) it doesn't matter because this fallen flesh can never be right with God; however, our transformed bodies will be.
I think that for those of us who after accepting Christ who then willfully engage is sin, while I don't condone it, I see it as a process, one that will take all of this lifetime. I see our journey spirtually paralleled to our natural journey from infancy to old-age.
Poohbear, I'm sorry to single you out, but I am. You are so very young, and just to see your dedication and questioning of these issues at your young age is refreshing. I think that in and of itself speaks to your profound love for God.
While the work of redeeming our spirits is an instaneous miracle done at the time we accept Christ into our hearts, the living out of that reality is done over a lifetime for each of us. Only God can know what is going on with each of us individually in that part of each of us where He lives. Even Paul had these struggles, and he speaks to them.
Sorry for rambling, I'm finished now.

 

[Poohbear]

Wow, this thread has been real food for thought, and I appreciate all of the views expressed here. I'd just like to add my thoughts.
I've been taught (and believe) that when Christ came to redeem man, He redeemed our spirits, that part of us that His Spirit communes with. For those of us who've accepted Him as Lord and Savior, we take it on faith that this is a done deal which has been done by Him. He did not come to redeem our flesh and so for me what that means is that on this side of heaven, my flesh will always be fallen no matter what. Even if I never sin (which aint gonna happen because fallen flesh can't help it, even mere thoughts that I cannot control are sometimes sinful) it doesn't matter because this fallen flesh can never be right with God; however, our transformed bodies will be.
I think that for those of us who after accepting Christ who then willfully engage is sin, while I don't condone it, I see it as a process, one that will take all of this lifetime. I see our journey spirtually paralleled to our natural journey from infancy to old-age.
Poohbear, I'm sorry to single you out, but I am. You are so very young, and just to see your dedication and questioning of these issues at your young age is refreshing. I think that in and of itself speaks to your profound love for God.
While the work of redeeming our spirits is an instaneous miracle done at the time we accept Christ into our hearts, the living out of that reality is done over a lifetime for each of us. Only God can know what is going on with each of us individually in that part of each of us where He lives. Even Paul had these struggles, and he speaks to them.
Sorry for rambling, I'm finished now.

I have no problem with being singled out. I am not ashamed.

I also wanted to point out what the Bible says about Jesus Christ redeeming us:

Titus 2 (KJV)
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The Bible wasn't specific about whether or not he redeemed our flesh but he clearly says that He redeemed us from all iniquity (lawlessness, sin, etc.) and purify unto Himself a peculiar (special) people. Before going to that verse, the scripture tells us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts in this present world...it does NOT say "you might not be able to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts because of your fleshly nature in this present world". The scriptures give no excuse for our sinful fleshly nature of Adam.

 

[Guitarhero]

I have no problem with being singled out. I am not ashamed.

I also wanted to point out what the Bible says about Jesus Christ redeeming us:
.

Believe me, you weren't being singled out. As she said, there are so many faiths and that faith itself is the crux of it all - what we should have. Confusion is everywhere, not just with you, Poohbear. There are many people who think that others are unsaved and vice versa. There are so many who think their way and interpretation of scripture is the only way. There are so many who nitpick over this and that. If we truly look at the world of faith, all of us are ALL OVER THE PLACE Belief in God as He revealed Himself is the first key. I think He's big enough to carry all us through life to where we need to be. Don't sweat it, mami. See, your heart is a lot deeper for God than many people would ever realize or admit. Sometimes, step one - belief in Him - that's where we have to start. This message is for so many lurkers and not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[makeupgirl]

I know we are under the grace, thank you.
I was asking about the 7 dispensations. Just because we are living in the grace of salvation does not mean we don't have a conscience. Can we agree?
Why separate an age of conscience?

Your response in the bold could have been a little nicer. But, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I must have misread it but nevertheless, I don't know what you know, but now I do know that you know that we are under grace. No hard feelings.

We can definitely agree, in fact I agree with you 100%. In fact, According to this article I found online, http://www.gracenotes.info/topics/dispensations.html, it not only breaks down the dispensations but also explains the purpose of each dispensation. It also says that the dispensations are in fact cumulative. However, even though we are under the dispensation of grace, we as Christians no longer live under the OT in which innocence - law is under, however that doesn't mean we should disregard it. We were brought into conscience because of Adam's sin but praise be to God that we are now under grace, that everything has gotten to this particular dispensation. Why the separate age of conscience? I'm going to have to research that a little because I believe there is more to this. Interesting question.

 

[Aviah]

I have no problem with being singled out. I am not ashamed.

I also wanted to point out what the Bible says about Jesus Christ redeeming us:

Titus 2 (KJV)
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The Bible wasn't specific about whether or not he redeemed our flesh but he clearly says that He redeemed us from all iniquity (lawlessness, sin, etc.) and purify unto Himself a peculiar (special) people. Before going to that verse, the scripture tells us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts in this present world...it does NOT say "you might not be able to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts because of your fleshly nature in this present world". The scriptures give no excuse for our sinful fleshly nature of Adam.

Very true. Still its something we contend with. To be honest, the perfection that you say we should have is a life long ambition IMHO. Strive for it, at all times. I don't think because you don't always hit the mark doesn't mean you're not saved. Interesting food for thought in addition to what Deequest said. I'm coming to the conclusion that in the midst of our faith of salvation, our love for God bears works that are reflective of Him. Therefore the deeper the love, the greater the obedience, the closer in intimacy, the easier to die to sin. At the end of the day we cannot change the past, but this has definitely encouraged me to be more diligent, while finding the balance between seeking to just cease from sin in my life, and actually loving and coming into deeper communion with God. All we can do is our best, and all things are possible through Christ right?

ETA I just read the dispensations article, and it mentions something I had forgotten, that God has given us the *gift* of righteousness. Which does relate baxk to my original points about us not being able to be righteous on our own, but to "give it our best shot"....
Let me tinker over this some more...

PB is this thread helping in any way?

 

[Guitarhero]

Yet another sermon on sin today!!! Essence of the homily? The adulteress caught and the Pharisees attempting to trap Jesus. The message? We are to confess our sins and then we are to try perfection. The reason God tells us to confess is that He already knows we are imperfect men. There is no excuse not to TRY. This doesn't mean that we cannot achieve perfection, but God knows so much more about us than we do. He realizes we are going to fall into error throughout life and provides for it. That's why we are to continue to strive for perfection.

How many times to fall? How many times to get up? How many times to learn not to fall? That depends upon the spiritual fortitude of the person, his comprehension, his willingness to progress spiritually and his environment. As much as we sin, there is forgiveness awaiting us. Being careless and not guarding the heart is also sin. God is so far ahead of us that when He tells us to confess our sins and strive for perfection, he also tells us not to judge the lives of others unless we face the same judgements we mete out. Fear of sinfulness and perfecting of ourselves is greatly balanced by equal fear of hypocrisy. He want us to be balanced. Such a great message today! Still praying for you Poohbear. He is right beside you, my sister and He knows your heart.

 

[Bubblingbrownshuga]

The beauty of Christianity is your personal relationship with GOD and belief that he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. We are to fellowship with others who believe as we do and testify to those that do not. My relationship with GOD has absolutely no bearing on what the next "Christian" is doing. It is truly an intimate and personal relationship that I share with HIM.

I completely understand your feelings about "Christians" right now and agree with you about the hypocrisy of it all. However, we will be judged on our actions and it all comes down to the choices we make exercising free will.

I really needed this post. Thanks so much. It's so easy to get wrapped up in what others are doing wrong especially if they're wearing the Christian title to where you're like, 'whatever with this Christian walk! I am done! but this is why you should look to Jesus as your example and not falliable human beings.

I can truely say that out of my 30 years as a Christian, I have encountered about 10 that were for real in my eyes. They encourage me, but if they do fall (I pray they don't) I ask for the strength to not waiver in my beliefs. It's so easy to do.

 

[CoilyFields]

So if we can achieve prefection in THIS body...why would we need NEW transformed bodies when Jesus comes back?

 

[MA2010]

The beauty of Christianity is your personal relationship with GOD and belief that he gave his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. We are to fellowship with others who believe as we do and testify to those that do not. My relationship with GOD has absolutely no bearing on what the next "Christian" is doing. It is truly an intimate and personal relationship that I share with HIM.

I completely understand your feelings about "Christians" right now and agree with you about the hypocrisy of it all. However, we will be judged on our actions and it all comes down to the choices we make exercising free will.

I had to quote you to THANK YOU again!!! It all boils down to the bold statement.

 

[makeupgirl]

So if we can achieve prefection in THIS body...why would we need NEW transformed bodies when Jesus comes back?

Basically because even though we have been redeemed by Jesus' blood, our bodies are still corruptable because of sin.

1 Cor 15:35-54

vs. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with waht body do they come
vs. 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
vs. 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
vs. 38 But God giveth a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body
vs. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of bird
vs. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another
vs. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory
vs. 42 So also is the ressurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
vs. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power
vs. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body
vs. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
vs. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual
vs. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven
vs. 48 As it is the earthly, such are they also that are earthly; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
vs. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
vs. 50 Now that I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
vs. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
vs. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.
vs. 53 For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
vs. 54 So when this corruptable shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written. Death is swallowed up in victory.

These verses explain it better than I ever could. I hope this helps.

 

[Poohbear]

I'm surprised that some of you agreed with deesquest...she is saying that a true Christian says no to sin EVERY TIME! She is saying a true Christian is no longer a sinner...they no longer commit sin once they are saved!!!

 

[Crown]

Your response in the bold could have been a little nicer. But, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I must have misread it but nevertheless, I don't know what you know, but now I do know that you know that we are under grace. No hard feelings.

We can definitely agree, in fact I agree with you 100%. In fact, According to this article I found online, http://www.gracenotes.info/topics/dispensations.html, it not only breaks down the dispensations but also explains the purpose of each dispensation. It also says that the dispensations are in fact cumulative. However, even though we are under the dispensation of grace, we as Christians no longer live under the OT in which innocence - law is under, however that doesn't mean we should disregard it. We were brought into conscience because of Adam's sin but praise be to God that we are now under grace, that everything has gotten to this particular dispensation. Why the separate age of conscience? I'm going to have to research that a little because I believe there is more to this. Interesting question.

I said thank you and you want me to be nicer ?
Let me see : for you !

By the way, makeupgirl, I don’t know 1 Christian who does not know that we are under the grace.

Thanks for the link, I will consider it later.

 

[Crown]

I'm surprised that some of you agreed with deesquest...she is saying that a true Christian says no to sin EVERY TIME! She is saying a true Christian is no longer a sinner...they no longer commit sin once they are saved!!!

About sin, this is why it is important to make a distinction between sinner and sin. We all were sinners before coming to Christ. But with Christ we are no more sinners, but it happens that a Christian sins. However, I don’t use my righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin.

I think a Christian saying I don’t sin is deceiving himself or is at the pre final step (the final step is the complete glorification) and forget the previous steps. In this case, be careful to not discourage the babies in the faith.
In saying a Christian does not sin, a baby in the faith will think : I do sin, then I am not really a Christian, what is wrong with me? Why continue?
Be careful! We should be an encouragement for others, not the contrary.

It’s not magic people of God, it’s a process.
If I have a child at university and one new born and one in middle or high school, can I expect the same attitude from all of them? NO. But, they are all my children and I love them and know what I want for them.

Like an artisan, the work has to be done. Can you see the beauty of a precious metal just after you have it in your hands from the nature?

Mat. 6.9 … Our Father which art in heaven,
6.12 … forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Have regular quality just You and me time with God and His Word, believe Him revealed in Jesus-Christ and let Him transform you by His Holy Spirit, from glory to glory.

 

[Poohbear]

About sin, this is why it is important to make a distinction between sinner and sin. We all were sinners before coming to Christ. But with Christ we are no more sinners, but it happens that a Christian sins. However, I don’t use my righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin.

I think a Christian saying I don’t sin is deceiving himself or is at the pre final step (the final step is the complete glorification) and forget the previous steps. In this case, be careful to not discourage the babies in the faith.
In saying a Christian does not sin, a baby in the faith will think : I do sin, then I am not really a Christian, what is wrong with me? Why continue?
Be careful! We should be an encouragement for others, not the contrary.

It’s not magic people of God, it’s a process.
If I have a child at university and one new born and one in middle or high school, can I expect the same attitude from all of them? NO. But, they are all my children and I love them and know what I want for them.

Like an artisan, the work has to be done. Can you see the beauty of a precious metal just after you have it in your hands from the nature?

Mat. 6.9 … Our Father which art in heaven,
6.12 … forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Have regular quality just You and me time with God and His Word, believe Him revealed in Jesus-Christ and let Him transform you by His Holy Spirit, from glory to glory.

I understand what you are saying...what you have said is what I have been taught for years...but Deesquest is actually saying a true Christian no longer commits sin. She is saying something different than everyone else has expressed.

And how can you (not you personally but Christians in general) say we aren't using our righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin? If we're righteous with Christ, why are we still sinning?

It's really hard to get across what I'm trying to say. A sinner commits sin. If you commit a sin, you are a sinner. It just doesn't sound right anymore for someone to claim to be either a Christian sinner or a righteous Christian that commits sins.

 

[Guitarhero]

I understand what you are saying...what you have said is what I have been taught for years...but Deesquest is actually saying a true Christian no longer commits sin. She is saying something different than everyone else has expressed.

And how can you (not you personally but Christians in general) say we aren't using our righteousness through Christ as an excuse to sin? If we're righteous with Christ, why are we still sinning?

It's really hard to get across what I'm trying to say. A sinner commits sin. If you commit a sin, you are a sinner. It just doesn't sound right anymore for someone to claim to be either a Christian sinner or a righteous Christian that commits sins.

No, it's not with me because I understood. Many of us got it with your first post Humans are fallible beings. Either you are going to believe that or not. Mercy is the issue that needs to be understood regarding sin, forgiveness and salvation. We're all not going to be on the same page, though.

 

[Poohbear]

Basically because even though we have been redeemed by Jesus' blood, our bodies are still corruptable because of sin.

1 Cor 15:35-54

vs. 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with waht body do they come
vs. 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
vs. 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
vs. 38 But God giveth a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body
vs. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of bird
vs. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another
vs. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory
vs. 42 So also is the ressurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
vs. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power
vs. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body
vs. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
vs. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual
vs. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven
vs. 48 As it is the earthly, such are they also that are earthly; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
vs. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
vs. 50 Now that I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
vs. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
vs. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed.
vs. 53 For this corruptable must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
vs. 54 So when this corruptable shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written. Death is swallowed up in victory.

These verses explain it better than I ever could. I hope this helps.

Hey makeupgirl,

I read these verses and do not see how this scripture is saying that our bodies are still corruptable because of sin. The verses are actually saying we were sown in corruption, in other words, we started out as corruptable. These verses aren't advocating that we stay in this state of courruption. This scripture is actually saying to be raised in glory and in power. Verse 53 even tells us to put on incorruption, which means to be morally upright.

But again, I could be wrong...I don't know.

 

[makeupgirl]

I said thank you and you want me to be nicer ?
Let me see : for you !

By the way, makeupgirl, I don’t know 1 Christian who does not know that we are under the grace.

Thanks for the link, I will consider it later.

No prob. I probably just interpret it wrong. But you be surprised that some Christians don't know we under the grace dispensation, there are even some that don't believe in the rapture.

 

[Poohbear]

No, it's not with me because I understood. Many of us got it with your first post Humans are fallible beings. Either you are going to believe that or not. Mercy is the issue that needs to be understood regarding sin, forgiveness and salvation. We're all not going to be on the same page, though.

I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?

For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife? Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage. And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.

Does Winston Bennett really love his wife if he is continually unfaithful to her? Aren't we being like Winston Bennett to God if we just continue to sin (whether it's the same sin or different sins) throughout our lifetime and claim to love Him at the same time?

I know most of y'all would not stay with a man like Winston Bennett, but yet, we expect God to be there for us when we continue to not keep his commandments and dip and dab in Satan's territory of sin every now and then...

 

[makeupgirl]

Hey makeupgirl,

I read these verses and do not see how this scripture is saying that our bodies are still corruptable because of sin. The verses are actually saying we were sown in corruption, in other words, we started out as corruptable. These verses aren't advocating that we stay in this state of courruption. This scripture is actually saying to be raised in glory and in power. Verse 53 even tells us to put on incorruption, which means to be morally upright.

But again, I could be wrong...I don't know.[/QUOTE]

LOL, don't sweat it. I may be wrong. But these are the verses that clicked when the question was asked but I'll ask my pastor wed at bible study. It's still a learning process but that's why we're here to help each other out as sisters in Christ.

 

[Guitarhero]

I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?

For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife? Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage. And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.

Does Winston Bennett really love his wife if he is continually unfaithful to her? Aren't we being like Winston Bennett to God if we just continue to sin (whether it's the same sin or different sins) throughout our lifetime and claim to love Him at the same time?

I know most of y'all would not stay with a man like Winston Bennett, but yet, we expect God to be there for us when we continue to not keep his commandments and dip and dab in Satan's territory of sin every now and then...

No, I'm saying that the very nature of God and the mercy He offers is unlike any human being. Of course, we are to strive for perfection. Reality is, we aren't going to be perfect. Even the apostles sinned after meeting Jesus. Were 't they still his friends???? Peter? Nope, God ain't nothing like Bennett. He's on a whole nutha level. You truly need to get away from all people and ask this directly to God and keep on asking Him and actually listening to His response. I think that with every explanation, you are grasping at so many other things to add to the conversation that the initial question is not satisfied. I'd stop listening to humans and go quietly into meditation and just wait on Him. I've had to do it many times in life when all the voices around me were leading me into a variety of directions.

BTW, can I ask some questions but not expect you to answer them all in public? Do you consider yourself God's friend? His child? When was the last time you sinned? Any kind of sin. Have you repented of it? Was it a sin that you might have committed before, even years before? Do you have any addictive sins? Do you seek God in prayer? Do you believe in Him? Do you believe He forgives you when you sin? Only when you sin once in an area? Do you keep coming back to Him?

 

[Crown]

No prob. I probably just interpret it wrong. But you be surprised that some Christians don't know we under the grace dispensation, there are even some that don't believe in the rapture.

You can observe that I did not say dispensation. The Christianity is divided and sub divided because of human doctrines. But I think all Christians agree with this : we are under the grace.

We have been taught of so many doctrines. We strongly believe in what we have been taught and instantly think that my belief is true and yours is wrong, but is it the truth? Where is the truth? My parents? Husband or Wife? Pastor? Best friend? The Bible study of * denomination?… The truth is in the Bible and the Holy Spirit is still His inspiration.
With the actual technology, there is no more excuse to have a better view of the Bible, we are living in the time where knowledge is increased.
Dan. 12.4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Like the Word :
Act. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Thes. 5.21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[makeupgirl]

You can observe that I did not say dispensation. The Christianity is divided and sub divided because of human doctrines. But I think all Christians agree with this : we are under the grace.

We have been taught of so many doctrines. We strongly believe in what we have been taught and instantly think that my belief is true and yours is wrong, but is it the truth? Where is the truth? My parents? Husband or Wife? Pastor? Best friend? The Bible study of * denomination?… The truth is in the Bible and the Holy Spirit is still His inspiration.
With the actual technology, there is no more excuse to have a better view of the Bible, we are living in the time where knowledge is increased.
Dan. 12.4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Like the Word :
Act. 17.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Thes. 5.21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

ITA, you're absolutely right about this.

 

[Renovating]

I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?

For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife? Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage. And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.

Does Winston Bennett really love his wife if he is continually unfaithful to her? Aren't we being like Winston Bennett to God if we just continue to sin (whether it's the same sin or different sins) throughout our lifetime and claim to love Him at the same time?

I know most of y'all would not stay with a man like Winston Bennett, but yet, we expect God to be there for us when we continue to not keep his commandments and dip and dab in Satan's territory of sin every now and then...

No, I think the bottomline is that we can't pinpoint God's grace and mercy down to an exact science. Only He knows when he will decide to show mercy and let grace abound.

 

[CoilyFields]

I understand God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness... but shouldn't it be a one time thing?

For example, are you all saying that God is like Winston Bennett's wife? Winston Bennett has cheated on his wife with over 45 women per month. She decided to stay with this cheating man and has gone through much pain. She contracted two STDs from him over the 20+ years of their marriage. And guess what he says, if she cheated on him, he's gone. There's other fish in the sea.

Does Winston Bennett really love his wife if he is continually unfaithful to her? Aren't we being like Winston Bennett to God if we just continue to sin (whether it's the same sin or different sins) throughout our lifetime and claim to love Him at the same time?

I know most of y'all would not stay with a man like Winston Bennett, but yet, we expect God to be there for us when we continue to not keep his commandments and dip and dab in Satan's territory of sin every now and then...

Forgiveness is not a one time thing. God requires that we forgive our brother/sister 70x7 for sinning against us. If God requires us to forgive them then why would he not forgive us more than once...after we have accepted him as savior? His instructions on forgiveness show us that we will NEED to forgive our fellow Christians...meaning they WILL sin against us and hence God. He also tells us that in order for him to forgive us we must forgive others...this is not an instruction that only applies pre-salvation. There are also instructions about how to resolve conflict between church members (approaching, going to an elder, going to the church etc.) this automatically shows us that there will be conflict (sin) among the believers and there needs to be a way to resolve it to restore fellowship. Gods message is forgiveness with a focus on our eternal need for it from him.

Otherwise how do you reconcile Paul explaining how he does bad things sometimes even when he intends to do good. Or making sure that we DONT sin just because grace is abounding...meaning that we will be forgiven for our sins and we should not sin intentionally just because we CAN?

Also look to the old testament...as many times as Isreal sinned against God...He kept forgiving them and even sent his own son to die for them. Though they definately suffered consequences for their actions...he never forsook them as his chosen people.

If our making it to heaven depended on our own goodness...who among us would get there?

 

[Poohbear]

Forgiveness is not a one time thing. God requires that we forgive our brother/sister 70x7 for sinning against us. If God requires us to forgive them then why would he not forgive us more than once...after we have accepted him as savior? His instructions on forgiveness show us that we will NEED to forgive our fellow Christians...meaning they WILL sin against us and hence God. He also tells us that in order for him to forgive us we must forgive others...this is not an instruction that only applies pre-salvation. There are also instructions about how to resolve conflict between church members (approaching, going to an elder, going to the church etc.) this automatically shows us that there will be conflict (sin) among the believers and there needs to be a way to resolve it to restore fellowship. Gods message is forgiveness with a focus on our eternal need for it from him.

Otherwise how do you reconcile Paul explaining how he does bad things sometimes even when he intends to do good. Or making sure that we DONT sin just because grace is abounding...meaning that we will be forgiven for our sins and we should not sin intentionally just because we CAN?

Also look to the old testament...as many times as Isreal sinned against God...He kept forgiving them and even sent his own son to die for them. Though they definately suffered consequences for their actions...he never forsook them as his chosen people.

If our making it to heaven depended on our own goodness...who among us would get there?

I get what you're are saying, trust me...This is what I have been taught all my life...

...But can you relate this to Winston Bennett's case? Let's say Winston is the Christian and his wife is God...

Does Winston (the Christian) really love his wife (God) if he is continually being unfaithful in his marriage committment? Should his wife (God) forgive Winston (the Christian) over and over when he has sex with over 45 other women a month? Or should his wife (God) just divorce Winston (the Christian) and realize that Winston (the Christian) really doesn't love her (God)?

 

[CoilyFields]

Actually Winstons example is a good one to show the unfailing love of God.

In the OT you will constantly see God equating his relationship to Isreal as a marriage. He chestizes them for "whoring" after other Gods...but CONSTANTLY accepts them back, keeping his promises to them and even giving his son DESPITE their sins.

Also, God tells us that he is MARRIED to the backslider...so those who consciously turn their backs on God and live in sin...he says that he will NOT forsake them...he's still there.

So God will never divorce us (if he did it would make him a liar because he said he hates divorce)

And his PERFECT love puts up with our constant infidelities. He knows our hearts and knows what our intentions are towards him (love him or not). When he says to keep his commandments if we love him, its not because he doesnt know if we really do or not its to keep our actions lined up with the way we feel, and to keep us Holy and to demonstrate to others the love of God (We have all hurt someone we love...weather thats a parent, spouse, relative etc.).

 

[Poohbear]

Actually Winstons example is a good one to show the unfailing love of God.

In the OT you will constantly see God equating his relationship to Isreal as a marriage. He chestizes them for "whoring" after other Gods...but CONSTANTLY accepts them back, keeping his promises to them and even giving his son DESPITE their sins.

Also, God tells us that he is MARRIED to the backslider...so those who consciously turn their backs on God and live in sin...he says that he will NOT forsake them...he's still there.

So God will never divorce us (if he did it would make him a liar because he said he hates divorce)

And his PERFECT love puts up with our constant infidelities. He knows our hearts and knows what our intentions are towards him (love him or not). When he says to keep his commandments if we love him, its not because he doesnt know if we really do or not its to keep our actions lined up with the way we feel, and to keep us Holy and to demonstrate to others the love of God (We have all hurt someone we love...whether that's a parent, spouse, relative etc.).

It is true that we've all hurt someone that we love. So are you saying that habitual sinners and people who sin every now and then are all going to heaven just for simply believing in God and saying we love God? Is that what you're saying? Isn't love a choice as well as an action?

We don't necessarily have to live morally upright? We can just yield to our sinful nature anytime we want knowing that God is going to forgive us and love us anyway? That just doesn't sound right. Romans 6 says God forbid to the notion of "shall we sin so that grace may abound".

And how do you know that God will never divorce us? If he hates divorce so much, why is it legal?

To me, it's sounding like you're saying anyone and everyone is going to heaven no matter what. God loves everyone, whether they love Him or not. Is that what you're saying too? That's not Christianity I don't think...that's what the New Age religion believes.