I can't imagine.....

[Poohbear]

Part of your struggle may be that you are too focused on what others are doing. I say this because the statements you made above are statements I hear from many people who are struggling with their belief or just outright don't believe. At the end of the day, if you desire to walk with God, your focus is supposed to be on Him and not the actions of others. Just because others are "abusing God's grace" as you put it, doesn't mean Jesus ISN'T the one true way.

Also, I want to point out that the truth is that we ARE all going to sin. The problem comes when we do the SAME thing over and over without repenting. But again, if you see someone doing that, it isn't your cross to bear. Especially if it causes YOU to be strained in your own relationship with God.

I look at it like this. If a woman is married, but she sees people around her cheating and doing horrible things to their husbands, will she decide that maybe she shouldn't be married any longer and leave her husband because of how OTHERS are behaving?

I was almost with you on this post until you said the bolded... why is this the truth? Please don't point me to the verses that say "our righteousness is but filthy rags" or "no one is righteous, no not one" and so forth. If the Bible is the true Word of God, he calls believers to be HOLY and to put on the NEW nature and to get rid of the old nature...not keep going back to it. He doesn't say "Y'all are gonna keep on sinning so keep praying to me so I can forgive you." Repentance should be a one time thing of all sins. When you trust and believe in Jesus, you don't go back to your fleshly wicked ways. Jesus says to "Go and sin no more." He did not say "it's ok if you slip up and sin again. I'll just forgive and forget." You can't be truly saved by sinning.

Just think. You can't swim and you decided to hop in a lake, and you are about to drown. Someone comes and rescues you into a boat. You are saved from drowning. Then a few days later, you decide to hop back in the lake knowing you can't swim. You are no longer saved, you are about to drown again.

Same with Jesus. If y'all read Matthew or Luke, the angel told Mary that she would give birth to a son Jesus who will save God's people FROM their sin... not IN their sin or WHILE they are sinning. That means right when you accept Jesus, you are to repent and turn from your wicked ways. That's how I see the Gospel.

And about you're example about the married woman. I say No, she shouldn't leave her husband because of what others are doing. You're failing to see everything that I have a problem with. I'm not wanting to leave Christianity just because of what others are doing. There are some things with Christianity that do not logically, intellectually, or reasonably make sense to me.

 

[Poohbear]

Dear one, give Him time. I know where you are even though I know I'm not you. There is a time of conflict and you will get through it to be able to move on in your life in a positive direction. But what good is asking people for directions on your path if you reject the map? I feel the very trouble you are feeling and it so touches me because I've been there - mind you, a different situation, but it was gut-wrenching. I had no rest, day or night. That's why I ask you to meditate, to restore calm in order to be able to reflect and even intellectualize through this situation. The very answer you seek might just be right in front of you but with the lack of peace and calm, the waves are obscuring it.

You will find where you belong, I am certain of it. But never strive to be another. You are unique and your answer will come designed just right for you. He is the author of intellect and He's got your philosophical answer just the way you need it. Think of that rose. It blooms after it is seeded and that takes time. Without patience, it will not bloom. With stress, it will not bloom. But when there is calm and meditation, it blooms magnificently.

Thank you.

 

[Poohbear]

I'm equally tired of the excuses and rationalizations people make for not believing.

While I think from time to time most people will have low periods in their walk, I don't agree when it appears that they aim to make others doubt or question their walk. Poohbear, I am sorry that you are struggling in this way. However, as I read your posts in this thread, whether you agree with me or not, it seems that your posts are designed to make others question their own walks and beliefs. It really is true that misery loves company.

I agree. I am wanting others to question their walks and beliefs. I see nothing wrong with that. We are all thinking living human beings here.

Many of the questions and issues you pose can be answered and addressed with a careful reading and study of the Word, as well as prayer and internal reflection.

if you choose to walk away from Him, then that is your choice. However I personally find it offensive that essentially you are condemning all Christians simply because they sin. In that sense you are being as judgmental and unforgiving as the very Christians you complain about.

About the bolded...I'm including myself when I'm "condemning all Christians." So I'm being judgemental and unforgiving about myself as well. Don't take it as something necessarily bad or offensive. If you feel guilty, just repent. Right? But anyway, I just want people to really think about it with their own minds. That's why I question this religion as a whole. It's scary but we can't just keep living blindly by stuff that doesn't make sense. Like in a earlier post, I said how can anyone, myself included, claim to be a Bible-believing Christian if they are sinning? The wages of sin is death. The Bible lists several types of sinners that shall not enter the kingdom of God. How can we ignore this by just looking at God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy? God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy is a one time thing. God forgives you of your PAST sins. Once you are forgiven, you don't go back to doing that sin or any sin. Just like if someone is forgiven of a lot of debt from filing bankruptcy, if you go back into debt, you are no longer forgiven, you're back in debt!!!

 

[nathansgirl1908]

I agree. I am wanting others to question their walks and beliefs. I see nothing wrong with that. We are all thinking living human beings here.


About the bolded...I'm including myself when I'm "condemning all Christians." So I'm being judgemental and unforgiving about myself as well. Don't take it as something necessarily bad or offensive. If you feel guilty, just repent. Right? But anyway, I just want people to really think about it with their own minds. That's why I question this religion as a whole. It's scary but we can't just keep living blindly by stuff that doesn't make sense. Like in a earlier post, I said how can anyone, myself included, claim to be a Bible-believing Christian if they are sinning? The wages of sin is death. The Bible lists several types of sinners that shall not enter the kingdom of God. How can we ignore this by just looking at God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy? God's grace, forgiveness, and mercy is a one time thing. God forgives you of your PAST sins. Once you are forgiven, you don't go back to doing that sin or any sin. Just like if someone is forgiven of a lot of debt from filing bankruptcy, if you go back into debt, you are no longer forgiven, you're back in debt!!!

The thing is that it is not your place to make others question their walks and their beliefs. That is something that is deeply personal.
And I'm not saying this in an angry way, but typically when I see people saying the things you are saying to others, I have found it to be a work of the enemy to make people feel guilt. If we feel guilt, we begin to unnecessarily condemn ourselves and start to experience rifts in our relationships with God. That's not of Him. He wants us to examine ourselves, but because we can't be perfect, we are to accept that and do our very best. What you fail to realize is that in some way, shape, or form, we DO sin every day even if we don't INTEND to. And when we repent of one sin, we repent of THAT sin. Not EVERY single sin known to man. What you are saying is unrealistic. It isn't an excuse. It just isn't reality.

Those people who remain in sin will be cast into the lake of fire. The Word clearly says that. But the point is that those are people who have chosen not to receive Him and who have failed to repent.


You are experiencing a confusion that is designed to keep you in bondage. It is your choice whether to remain there or work your way out of it. Right now you appear to wish to remain because you are rejecting every argument. When that is the case, believers should just step away so as not to be affected by what you are experiencing. Harsh? Maybe. But it is the truth. That's why after this post, I don't plan to respond anymore. it is pointless. And I don't mean that in an antagonistic way. I'm simply saying that you aren't going to resolve these issues until you open your heart and mind.

 

[Poohbear]

The thing is that it is not your place to make others question their walks and their beliefs. That is something that is deeply personal.
And I'm not saying this in an angry way, but typically when I see people saying the things you are saying to others, I have found it to be a work of the enemy to make people feel guilt. If we feel guilt, we begin to unnecessarily condemn ourselves and start to experience rifts in our relationships with God. That's not of Him. He wants us to examine ourselves, but because we can't be perfect, we are to accept that and do our very best. What you fail to realize is that in some way, shape, or form, we DO sin every day even if we don't INTEND to. And when we repent of one sin, we repent of THAT sin. Not EVERY single sin known to man. What you are saying is unrealistic. It isn't an excuse. It just isn't reality.

Those people who remain in sin will be cast into the lake of fire. The Word clearly says that. But the point is that those are people who have chosen not to receive Him and who have failed to repent.


You are experiencing a confusion that is designed to keep you in bondage. It is your choice whether to remain there or work your way out of it. Right now you appear to wish to remain because you are rejecting every argument. When that is the case, believers should just step away so as not to be affected by what you are experiencing. Harsh? Maybe. But it is the truth. That's why after this post, I don't plan to respond anymore. it is pointless. And I don't mean that in an antagonistic way. I'm simply saying that you aren't going to resolve these issues until you open your heart and mind.

You just contradicted yourself. So I guess EVERYONE is going to be cast into the lake of fire since everyone is remaining in their sin.

Sinning EVERY DAY is REMAINING IN SIN! There's no way to rationalize that!

And what you have said was not harsh. It's fine if you do not respond anymore as long as you mean it. I'm just venting. Everyone can choose to do what they want. That's fine. No burden on me.

I have opened my heart and mind... that's why I'm having these issues about what and what not to believe...

 

[SND411]

My mind is not made up and my heart is not frozen. And I could care less about my pride. That's what alot of self-proclaimed Christians like to do when they see someone questioning their faith. "You're not right with God"... "You're looking for an excuse not to follow Jesus" ... "You're hardening your heart like Pharoah"... WHATEVER! Get out of here with that mess.

Sorry, I didn't mean that since you are "questioning" your heart is hardened. I basically meant that sometimes we ask questions that we truly don't want to find the answers to. More like just asking questions to prove our stance. Not saying this is particularly what you are doing.

 

[Prudent1]

I have nothing to add to the wonderful scriptures that have been shared by all. I will say that a message series I heard recently addressed unanswered questions in the Christian faith. If you would like to check it out. Perhaps it will shed some light. If you get nothing from it no harm done. The series is called It's Personal- by Andy Stanley. If you google it there are pdf and free downloads for iTunes etc.
Here is a brief description of the series:
This powerful series is directed to men and women who desire a personal connection with God, but who have genuine questions, doubts, and concerns. In his creative and casual style, Andy Stanley makes a case for the fact that adults don’t become followers of Christ by getting all their questions answered. In most instances, something happens that shrinks those questions. And that something is always personal. You don't have to understand everything to believe in something. A 4-part series by Andy Stanley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sODlrzfnD24
http://resources.northpoint.org/store/shop.do?pID=1593

 

[Poohbear]

I have nothing to add to the wonderful scriptures that have been shared by all. I will say that a message series I heard recently addressed unanswered questions in the Christian faith. If you would like to check it out. Perhaps it will shed some light. If you get nothing from it no harm done. The series is called It's Personal- by Andy Stanley. If you google it there are pdf and free downloads for iTunes etc.
Here is a brief description of the series:
This powerful series is directed to men and women who desire a personal connection with God, but who have genuine questions, doubts, and concerns. In his creative and casual style, Andy Stanley makes a case for the fact that adults don’t become followers of Christ by getting all their questions answered. In most instances, something happens that shrinks those questions. And that something is always personal. You don't have to understand everything to believe in something. A 4-part series by Andy Stanley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sODlrzfnD24
http://resources.northpoint.org/store/shop.do?pID=1593

Prudent1,

Thanks for posting that youtube.com link! I just listened to the first part of his speech. He is really speaking of what I've been trying to talk about too. I'm going to listen to the rest of his 4-part series as well.

 

[aribell]

Nice post.

To answer your question, I'm not looking for an "out" from walking the "Christian" life. To me, the Christian life is about living holy, righteous, resisting temptation to do wrong, not falling into sin every now and then. I'm not looking to live this wild, rebellious life at all like some of you are thinking. I'm looking to live a good life without wrongdoing. It is miserable to live like everything is a sin and you can't stop sinning and when you repent you go back and do the same sin. Then you have to pray to this higher power, God who is the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost, who you have to have faith is there listening to you and speaking to you, but there's no actual physical presence or sound. That's not true repentance when you pray for forgiveness and go back to that sin. That's not a true Christian to sin and just expect God to forgive you everytime for the same sin or different sins. I have yet to find anything in the bible that says "God forgives you of past, present, and future sins." How is that? I can see forgiving you of past sins. But if he forgives you of present and future sins, what's the point of even confessing? "Because it shows you have faith". No, that's ridiculous too. We can't ignore God's call to obedience.

Per the bolded, doesn't the Bible say that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"? The Father allowed Jesus to be crucified for our sins before anyone even had a chance to accept or to reject Him. Jesus reached out on the Cross saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while they had just tortured Him and were mocking Him. That's amazing isn't it, that in the midst of being tormented by His creation, He offered forgiveness.

God doesn't change. He is always offering us forgiveness. And yet we can choose to alienate ourselves from His love by rejecting Him. Regardless of what anyone claims about God's forgiveness, His word clearly says that those who practice unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, Paul says, "Do not be deceived, for God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that He will reap." That is what we do if we claim that God will just look the other way at our sin--mocking God, and He does not accept that. If we think that He does, we are deceiving ourselves.

Someone who actively chooses to continually sin does not have faith, no matter what they say. As Jesus said, there is one test alone for determining whether someone knows and loves God, and that is whether they obey His commandments.

But also, I have to say that we can't try and set up a higher standard for ourselves than the Bible itself gives us. The Bible doesn't teach that once we become a believer that we will never sin again, which means that it's very possible to fall and have to get back up again. This is because many times, we have to learn something more about ourselves and what is leading us into that sin, and that's not an instant occurence. A lot of the time, people keep repenting and falling because they aren't really stopping to reflect on what led them to sin in the first place and just say "Sorry God" and expect their actions to be suddenly different. But it takes more prayer, insight and reflection than just saying "Oops, my bad."

I think that you're right in saying that true repentance is not something you can just go back on, but a lot of people have not gotten to the place where they understand what true repentance is all about. Or, they "confess" their sin, seeking forgiveness because they want to avoid any bad consequences, but aren't really interested in being changed and don't understand why they were wrong. And so they keep confessing, but aren't repenting. But it's repentance that brings grace to make a permanent change. Still, this is all a process, and a lot of times God is more patient and merciful with our sin and the process of our sanctification than we are with ourselves and one another.

 

[Poohbear]

Per the bolded, doesn't the Bible say that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"? The Father allowed Jesus to be crucified for our sins before anyone even had a chance to accept or to reject Him. Jesus reached out on the Cross saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while they had just tortured Him and were mocking Him. That's amazing isn't it, that in the midst of being tormented by His creation, He offered forgiveness.

Those scriptures do not say Jesus forgives us of future sins. "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" means that Jesus died for us before were sinners. Later on in Romans 5, it talks about "being reconciled" to God and being saved by his life. When you reconcile with someone, you are back in good standing with love. Let's say a spouse cheats on you, and you decide to reconcile with that spouse out of love. You are expecting that spouse not to cheat on you again, or else, you wouldn't have reconciled with your spouse. You would have cut him off. God expects us to love Him by keeping His commandments and loving Him with all our heart, mind, and soul. I just don't think we can do that by sinning every now and then and claiming to not do the sin intentionally.

Someone who actively chooses to continually sin does not have faith, no matter what they say. As Jesus said, there is one test alone for determining whether someone knows and loves God, and that is whether they obey His commandments.

Thanks for your response, but how do you define or determine what actively choosing to continually sin is? That is the biggest question I have, especially since everyone keeps saying "once you become a believer, that doesn't mean you will never sin again." Where in the Bible does it say believers do not actively choose to continue to sin but they still sin? That really doesn't make sense at all. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be funny, sarcastic, or offensive here. To me, any sin we do, is actively choosing to continue to do that sin. Don't you think? How do you get around that?

 

[Ije4eva]

Per the bolded, doesn't the Bible say that "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"? The Father allowed Jesus to be crucified for our sins before anyone even had a chance to accept or to reject Him. Jesus reached out on the Cross saying, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while they had just tortured Him and were mocking Him. That's amazing isn't it, that in the midst of being tormented by His creation, He offered forgiveness.

God doesn't change. He is always offering us forgiveness. And yet we can choose to alienate ourselves from His love by rejecting Him. Regardless of what anyone claims about God's forgiveness, His word clearly says that those who practice unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, Paul says, "Do not be deceived, for God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that He will reap." That is what we do if we claim that God will just look the other way at our sin--mocking God, and He does not accept that. If we think that He does, we are deceiving ourselves.

Someone who actively chooses to continually sin does not have faith, no matter what they say. As Jesus said, there is one test alone for determining whether someone knows and loves God, and that is whether they obey His commandments.

But also, I have to say that we can't try and set up a higher standard for ourselves than the Bible itself gives us. The Bible doesn't teach that once we become a believer that we will never sin again, which means that it's very possible to fall and have to get back up again. This is because many times, we have to learn something more about ourselves and what is leading us into that sin, and that's not an instant occurence. A lot of the time, people keep repenting and falling because they aren't really stopping to reflect on what led them to sin in the first place and just say "Sorry God" and expect their actions to be suddenly different. But it takes more prayer, insight and reflection than just saying "Oops, my bad."

I think that you're right in saying that true repentance is not something you can just go back on, but a lot of people have not gotten to the place where they understand what true repentance is all about. Or, they "confess" their sin, seeking forgiveness because they want to avoid any bad consequences, but aren't really interested in being changed and don't understand why they were wrong. And so they keep confessing, but aren't repenting. But it's repentance that brings grace to make a permanent change. Still, this is all a process, and a lot of times God is more patient and merciful with our sin and the process of our sanctification than we are with ourselves and one another.

The bolded is an awesome point. I read this on a website:

"So, we start right-off with a problem...Like I said, proper translations and all...The fact is that the word "Repent" nowadays has all of these religious overtones...In Jesus' day, the word that he spoke meant to the people hearing it, "Change your thinking!" It is not just a matter of changing your actions, but all of your being, renewed from the inside-out, starting with your thinking."

 

[Crown]

To me, any sin we do, is actively choosing to continue to do that sin. Don't you think?

No!
If we consider a sin like a crime, we as humans know to make a difference between a premeditated crime or not. Someone can sin, but did not actively choose to continue to sin.
In a Christian walk or for believers, this is a battle between the spirit and the flesh. The spirit has to overcome the flesh. For some points, it is instantaneous; but for some, it take time for the grace of God to be manifested in a Christian life.

Rom. 7.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7.25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;…

How do you get around that?

*Someone is not Christian because he/she says : I am Christian.
Rom. 8.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

*Being Christian is a process, a journey.
When a believer sins, this person feels bad, really bad, and has no desire to fell again. Maybe this believer will fell in another area, but not the same; and even in the same area, this person will not lay in this sin, but will rise again, till the victory by the grace of God.
Rom. 8.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

*It’s a personal walk.
A Christian who choose to continue to sin is a person living in the flesh and the life of God is not already manifested in this person at this specific time in his/her walk.
1Cor. 4.21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
Rom. 8.26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

*A christian is changed from glory to glory.
We are at different steps in our walk: some believe that they are Christians but live in the flesh, some have one foot in the flesh and on in the spirit, and some are living in the spirit.
1Cor. 3.18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

At the end of the journey, it will be good to say like Paul:
Tim. 4.7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 4.8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[Aviah]

I actually found the thread to be quite interesting and enlightening.

I myself am struggling with the whole idea of what it means to be a Christian. I feel like I'm becoming Agnostic due to all the division among Christianity, corruption, and hypocrisy. If Jesus is the one true way, then why are so many "Christians" abusing God's grace with their sins, and at the same time, looking down on others who sin or don't believe in God or Jesus? Aren't you as a Christian acting like someone who doesn't believe in God when you sin all day everyday and make an excuse that you can't stop because of your sinful fleshly nature from Adam?

I very much understand where you are coming from, but these are man's imperfections, not God's. Its not the way God wants it to be, but we have free will and its up to you and you alone to hold yourself to what God wants and having a relationship with him, you know?

At least that's how I do. Do what I am supposed to (or at least try) and what othe people do... well help if they're willing to recieve it, if not then just pray for them and leave it alone...
ETA I just read more of the responses Poohbear, you may want to check out Ravi Zacharias' talks on Youtube. I hope you find something there that makes some sense...

However I think that salvation based on works (never sinning again) presents a problem with the Blood of Jesus and him being instrumental as a Savior. If we could be that way and not sin at all, then there would be no need for the sacrifice. I think the thing with people carrying on sinning is an issue of the heart, you know God looks at the heart whereas man looks as outward things. It would be very frustrating to think that to be holy we must never ever sin again, we would all be very afraid to live, but we're supposed to have life more abundantly. I'm sure its been said people struggle, and we can overcome many things, but I think its just our nature as humans to not be perfect on our own. This isn't to say don't bother trying. You know te scripture about a righteous man falling seven time and still getting up. we cannot hange what has been, we can only take action with the help of god to do better, and call on the Grace of God when we mess up and do worse. Otherwise (to me) its like punishing a child every single time they mess up no matter what their intentions were, or how they intend to change. IMO that's death, not life.
HTH... somehow

(BTW I have had my times of questionning and for me I don't know everything just yet, but I know and have seen enough to keep me trusting God for now.)

 

[Poohbear]

Crown and Aviah,

I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

I just don't buy the fact that Christians who have the Spirit of God don't choose to sin. If a Christian isn't choosing to sin, then what are they doing? Just making innocent little mistakes in the name of Jesus? I don't think so. Any action we do, we choose to do it consciously.

How can one determine for themselves if they have the Spirit of God in them? Just by feeling bad from a sin? What if you feel bad about the sin temporarily, and a few days or weeks or months later, you do the sin again?

How can a Christian's heart still be right with God when they sin? The Bible says our hearts can be deceitful. Are you really sorry and remorseful if you return to sin? Sin breaks fellowship with God, doesn't it?

How can being holy and righteous include evil wicked sin? Just by believing in Jesus?

What is continual habitual sin? Someone said everyone sins everyday. Isn't that continual habitual sin? No matter what, people do things whether right or wrong because they choose to do it. We can't blame Satan or our sinful fleshly nature from Adam for everything. Like you said, we have free will. Christians are using their free will to sin sometimes. Is that the right thing to do? I just don't think so. There's no such thing as a carnal minded Christian... you're either a carnal minded person or a Christian, you can't be both.

 

[discobiscuits]

all Christians who sin CHOOSE to sin. instead of resisting the devil causing him to flee, they willingly, knowingly, intentionally chose to sin.

 

[PG480]

Hi Poohbear, I just read this thread through today and just wanted to add my two cents. I understand where you are coming from because I too have been just where you are. Reading what you have said about your doubts, concerns, confusion, etc. makes me feel that God wants to truly take you to the next level in your relationship with Him, where you will know that you know GOD OUR FATHER IS REAL and that HE LOVES US and has a purpose for us. It has already been mentioned before by some of our Christian Forum sisters, but I just want to emphasize it again, that at this point it will only take a divine revelation of God himself in your life for you to never doubt His existence or His word. I say this out of pure love and understanding because I know that is painful to be even in a place of doubt in your walk with God. Being frustrated is an understandable emotion right now for you, but I think everyone's response comes from a place of love and care in wanting to help you at this time in your life. Please continue to pour out your heart to God, spend quiet time communing and fellowshipping with him, and I promise you he will show up like never before in your life. I will pray for you through this time and I believe that a time will come when you will share your testimony on how God delivered you through this season in your life. Stay strong and God Bless

 

[Poohbear]

Someone sent me this link which I found to helpful as well. It's sermon about an hour long by Paul Washer. It touches on a little bit of what I'm talking about in regards to being a true believer, but at the same time, he still gives that notion that we all still sin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_BPopbKI&annotation_id=annotation_38217&feature=iv

 

[Crown]

I just want to add this :

*David was not a man of God because he has never sinned :
Act. 13.22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.

*We are the work of God :
Ec. 3.11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

*God commands sincerity :
Ps. 145.18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

*We don’t want to be like this, but it exists :
Gal. 4.19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 4.20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Only God can satisfy your quest. Spend quality time with Him and His word and :
[FONT=&quot]Col. 3.15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 3.16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 3.17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.[/FONT]

 

[Poohbear]

I never said David was not a man of God because he had never sinned. But the thing is, after he sinned with Bathsheba, did he go back and sin with her again? NO! He repented. He didn't keep on sinning. That's why he was a man of God. I'm not saying we Christians need to be people who have never sinned. I'm saying once someone becomes a Christian, they should not sin anymore.

But last night, I listened to another one of Paul Washer's sermons entitled Examine Yourself. It was really good. It came out of 2 Corinthians 13:5 and he also went through several verses in 1 John 2. He talked about comparing yourself to the Word of God and not to anything else, so that was helpful to me. While other self-proclaimed Christians may think it's okay to sin, I'm not going to let myself think that way.

I just want to add this :

*David was not a man of God because he has never sinned :
Act. 13.22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.

*We are the work of God :
Ec. 3.11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

*God commands sincerity :
Ps. 145.18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

*We don’t want to be like this, but it exists :
Gal. 4.19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 4.20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Only God can satisfy your quest. Spend quality time with Him and His word and :
[FONT=&quot]Col. 3.15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 3.16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 3.17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.[/FONT]

 

[Sharpened]

But what about the trouble David had with Absalom? All of that could have been avoid if David had handled his children's issues. Was that a sin?

 

[Renovating]

But what about the trouble David had with Absalom? All of that could have been avoid if David had handled his children's issues. Was that a sin?

Poohbear:
Exactly, he may not have sinned with Bathsheba again, but I seriously doubt he didn't do anything else wrong before he died.

After reading the posts, I'm curious and I want to know if you have not done anything wrong in your life since you became a Christian. If this is true, please share with those of us that profess to be a Christian and still struggle with sin exactly how we can accomplish the same. (Please know that I am not being sarcastic, but I'm always seeking ways to perfect my walk with Christ and I would greatly appreciate those suggestions. I understand where you're coming from to a degree. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but it seems to me that in some way we all are.)


I just want to add, although I desire to live a righteous life, it's hard for me to fathom not ever sinning again before I die, especially after watching Kirk Camereon and John Macarthur interview people on TBN. I'm sure you've probably seen it too.

Well if you haven't he asks people if they think they are a good person. They usually say yes. Then he asks them if they've committed certain sins and even if they didn't physically commit them, they eventually find they sin in their heart/thoughts.

For example, I choose to be celibate, but I would be lying if I said I didn't mentally lust after Lamman Rucker. (LOL!)
I'm sorry but I don't feel like I'm any less of a Christian because I feel that way about him. I do ask God to help me to refrain from lustful thoughts and I try to avoid exposing my eyes and ears to certain things.
I think it's possible to stop committing "visible" sins, but what about you're heart and mind. I think that's why Phil 3:13-14
indicates we don't have it all together but we are striving towards perfection.
(Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.)

 

[Crown]

.................................

 

[Poohbear]

authenticitymanifesting,

I know you're not being sarcastic. You must not have seen some of my other posts, but I am also talking about myself when I talk about Christians that sin. That's why I was telling others in this thread not to take what I say as personal because I'm talking about myself too!

To answer your question, Yes, I have done wrong in my life since becoming a Christian. In fact, I did more wrong after professing a faith in Christ than before I did. I started to believe in Christ around the age of 8. Around the end of high school and into college, I started sinning more and more and even doing sins I didn't desire to do and I knew clearly and consciously that these sins were against the will of God. For instance, I never said one curse word until I was maybe a freshman in college. I didn't have my first drink of alcohol until I was 24. But now, 2 years later, I no longer drink. I see no need to and do not want to. I'm still shocked to this day that I ever had a drink of alcohol because I did not desire it ever until I was 24 for some odd reason. But anyway, all this time, I would go to church every Sunday, teach children, help out in different church ministries from time to time, encourage and give Biblical words of advice to people, but yet, I was committing sin every now and then.

I am someone that a lot of people would consider a good person, but that does not matter. I even consider myself a relatively good person, but to me, any sin or wrongdoing is against God. But even if I did not believe in God, I myself hate sin and do not like doing things that I consider wrong. And I just don't see how anyone that sins is exercising true repentance or faith. We are taught "now that we believe in Jesus, we have forgiveness of sins. He forgives us over and over and over." I just don't buy that anymore. That's a miserable way to live to just know you're gonna keep sinning because of your sinful nature and relying on this spiritual being God, Jesus, Holy Ghost to take away the guilt and shame of your sins just to fall right back into sin, whether its the same sin or a different sin.

From what I read in the Bible, God is telling us:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

I could go on about what the Bible says about sin. Those verses were from the book of First John. There are Christians committing sins that God said shall not inherit the kingdom of God. I just can't ignore these verses if I'm going to be a true Christian. That's why we have so many people calling Christians hypocrites. Then Christians want to get on the defense about how "no one is perfect." So what? It's not an excuse to do the bad things that you're choosing to do.

And read Matthew 7:13-27. Jesus teaches about the way to heaven, "narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life". He speaks of good trees cannot bring forth evil fruit. He speaks of not everyone who says "Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Jesus says "I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It's one thing to know this Jesus, but does Jesus know you? We can go up to the White House and cry "I know President Obama. Let me in. I want to see him." They are not going to let you in if President Obama doesn't know you.

I feel like the Bible wants us to live a holy righteous life. He doesn't want us to live as though Jesus never gave us a law to obey. He wants us to bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit and keep on keeping his commandments. Christians must do the will of God as a style of life, not works, but evidence of faith, for just profession alone means nothing.

And you mentioned we can stop committing "visible" sins. God wants us to stop committing ALL sins! And about thoughts and feelings, they can tempt us to sin, our job is to not yield to that sin. Lust is different than a thought and feeling, it's clearly sin. It's an evil desire of the heart according to the Bible. That's good that you are staying celibate while you are unmarried, but there's also a way to not lust while you are on your journey. There's people that do not lust. It's all about self-control. As far as thoughts and feelings, let's say a thought comes to mind to say "you need to seek revenge on that person for doing you wrong." If you seek revenge, you sin. If you don't seek revenge, you do not sin. You actually resisted that temptation to sin. You made your evil fleshly nature suffer and abideth in the Spirit.

But hey, I don't know. I'm just a mere black woman living in the USA. I could be wrong about all my thoughts, feelings, questions, doubts, fears, so on and so forth... Maybe I'm thinking too much and analyzing this Bible thing too much, however, I still feel like my questions are valid, especially since Christianity is the religion I was brought up into.

Poohbear:
Exactly, he may not have sinned with Bathsheba again, but I seriously doubt he didn't do anything else wrong before he died.

After reading the posts, I'm curious and I want to know if you have not done anything wrong in your life since you became a Christian. If this is true, please share with those of us that profess to be a Christian and still struggle with sin exactly how we can accomplish the same. (Please know that I am not being sarcastic, but I'm always seeking ways to perfect my walk with Christ and I would greatly appreciate those suggestions. I understand where you're coming from to a degree. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but it seems to me that in some way we all are.)


I just want to add, although I desire to live a righteous life, it's hard for me to fathom not ever sinning again before I die, especially after watching Kirk Camereon and John Macarthur interview people on TBN. I'm sure you've probably seen it too.

Well if you haven't he asks people if they think they are a good person. They usually say yes. Then he asks them if they've committed certain sins and even if they didn't physically commit them, they eventually find they sin in their heart/thoughts.

For example, I choose to be celibate, but I would be lying if I said I didn't mentally lust after Lamman Rucker. (LOL!)
I'm sorry but I don't feel like I'm any less of a Christian because I feel that way about him. I do ask God to help me to refrain from lustful thoughts and I try to avoid exposing my eyes and ears to certain things.
I think it's possible to stop committing "visible" sins, but what about you're heart and mind. I think that's why Phil 3:13-14
indicates we don't have it all together but we are striving towards perfection.
(Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.)

 

[Renovating]

I agree that you do have valid questions and I wish I had answers for you.

I noticed you said lust is different from a feeling or thought. Do you think that lustful thoughts/feelings are not regarded as sins by the Lord? If so, maybe that's where the disconnect lies, because when I think of sin, I think of any type of impurity- whether it's a thought, action, or feeling. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand a human being having the ablility to avoid sin totally after accepting Christ as their Lord and savior.

 

[Poohbear]

I agree that you do have valid questions and I wish I had answers for you.

I noticed you said lust is different from a feeling or thought. Do you think that lustful thoughts/feelings are not regarded as sins by the Lord? If so, maybe that's where the disconnect lies, because when I think of sin, I think of any type of impurity- whether it's a thought, action, or feeling. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand a human being having the ablility to avoid sin totally after accepting Christ as their Lord and savior.

Yes. If it's a lustful thought or feeling, it is sin. I was talking about some nonlustful thoughts and feelings may not always be sin, but rather temptations to sin. But then again, I could be wrong...

All I know is that the Bible says in 2 Corinthians 10:3-6:

3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

 

[Poohbear]

And his children, Tamar and Amnon (Sam. 13)???

Don't think Bathsheba was the only sin of David.

David was sincere and ready to repent and to move on and not sin the same again.

David sinned with Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11. He repented in chapter 12. In chapter 13, it talks about David's son Amnon raping his own sister Tamar. Then David's other son, Absalom murdered Amnon. It didn't say David committed any sin with his children. His family just started to suffer as a consequence of his past sin. God told David that murder would be a constant threat in his family, his family would rebel, and someone else would sleep with his wives.

 

[Avyn]

I think that all sin stems from selfishness. Its a form of pride that makes ones wants and desires bigger than God and His ability to deliver us from ourselves, pressures, etc. I think that if people really, really, KNEW God and have experienced His power and love, they would become very uncomfortable with their prideful natures. I pray and hope that my Christian brothers and sisters will press into God and experience Him even just one time, their hearts will always pull them back to that experience no matter what they choose or fall into that experience will always be an anchor.

I struggled for a while with atheism and becoming an agnostic for the for some struggles i felt were never ending and for the same reasons as Poohbear, but God drew me back to Him with Love.

I have more to say, but lunch is over. I'll come back later.

 

[CoilyFields]

Hey Poohbear,
I have not gotten a chance to read the whole thread yet so forgive me if Im repeating something but one thing stuck out to me...our sinful nature.

When sin entered the world the whole world was cursed. And the nature of human beings was forever tarred with the desire for things that are not of God.

Even if we never do any sinful acts, Jesus has told us in Matthews that even our thoughts are held accountable, and in Hebrews it talks about the law being written on our hearts now (meaning we are not only held accountable for physically breaking the law but mentally doing it as well). And we have to understand that becuase God is SOOOOOO Holy...even our very nature is an offense to his perfection. So no matter how good we are, as long as we are cloaked in this flesh we cannot stand before him on our own merit...hence the need for the blood of Jesus until judgement day.

Jesus was the only sinless person to walk this earth. That was because he had not inherited the sinful nature of man and so had never done any wrong in thought or deed.
Now when the Bible talks about Job it calls him a perfect and upright man...but we see where he sinned. David was a man after Gods own heart, as mentioned above...but he sinned. So being sinless...is impossible...being blameless is expected.

I'm just curious though...do you think ANYONE would get into heaven if it was predicated upon never sinning again?

Being a Christian is about confessing and believing that Jesus is Lord, being blameless is about our sanctification...striving to be as Holy as the Royal family that we have been adopted into so that when people see you they glorify God. (I see the two as different) And I feel that that is why all the major people in the bible that were greatly used by God had flaws that God allowed to be exposed (most of them AFTER he had called them).

Gril I hope Im not way off with this response lol.

 

[Poohbear]

CoilyFields, thanks for your response.

In Phillippians 4:8, God tells us to "Fix your thoughts on what is true and good and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely, and dwell on the fine, good things in others. Think about all you can praise God for and be glad about."

An evil action begins with a single thought. Allowing your mind to dwell on lust, envy, hate, or revenge will lead to sin. When you focus on evil, it will defile you. In other words, while we have been born into this sinful body, we must resist its temptations and make our sinful body suffer and depend on the Spirit of God. Being born into a sinful body and knowing that Jesus was the only sinless man to ever walk the earth doesn't give us a license to keep on sinning.

 

[sunnysmyler]

Oh where is Shimmie when we need her! lol