Black women confront Chris Rock on Oprah Today

[jamaraa]

That's because they don't got enough hair to do so. They always cut it super low, put water on it, and brush it 1000 times to get those "waves"

LOL...yup you got their number. Keeping it "cut low" allows them to hide the texture. Obviously this isn't an option for most women, but they have their dodges too. They just don't get called on it.

 

[lynnstar]

Those that believe feminism is a "White thing" know nothing of Sejourner Truth or Angela Davis. It's sad and unfortunate.

I am proud of the strides that have been made by Black women but....

The Feminist Movement is viewed as a White Woman's fight because, in general, Black women have ALWAYS had to head up a household as a single female. Black women have ALWAYS had to have extra money saved in case her man left her. Black women have ALWAYS had to work outside of the home no matter how menial the job, regardless of whether or not she had children to care for. Its the legacy of slavery and beyond.

Black women, in general, have NEVER had the luxury of having her Black man putting her so high up on a pedestal that he didn't want her to work outside the home. Black women have never had the luxury of truly feeling that she will ALWAYS be fully taken care of financially, that she need never work outside the home.

But back to the film, what I really hate about how this film is being promoted is the fact that the beauty of Black women are being used as the butt of the joke.

 

[sylver2]

He filmed what he knows. He picked up his camera, did the work and made the film he wanted to make. I'm not mad at his effort. If you have in mind the film you want to see, it may be time to do the Tyler Perry hustle and go out there and make a better film. You can't expect him to present a fair (to you) and balanced (to you) 2 hour film that addresses every side of the coin.


And truth be told, Shaquisha in the hood probably still would object to a film with somebody like Sylver2 in it saying that anybody can have hair like that. Because that's not their reality and they will be offended by someone light & long-haired saying they & their family & friends are all simply lazy or not smart enough. They'll be tracing her bloodline back until they find the distant Indian relative to prove their case. And then Tyra will do a show saying how the movie may have presented a false image because this girl has an ancient Indian ancestor, and so forth. Unfortunate, but likely to be true.

dang..all that ..yall done dragged me thru the mud ..i ain't light..im brown
it wouldn't matter about my ancestors..my texture/type speaks for itself.

 

[jamaraa]

I am proud of the strides that have been made by Black women but....

The Feminist Movement is viewed as a White Woman's fight because, in general, Black women have ALWAYS had to head up a household as a single female. Black women have ALWAYS had to have extra money saved in case her man left her. Black women have ALWAYS had to work outside of the home no matter how menial the job, regardless of whether or not she had children to care for. Its the legacy of slavery and beyond.

Black women, in general, have NEVER had the luxury of having her Black man putting her so high up on a pedestal that he didn't want her to work outside the home. Black women have never had the luxury of truly feeling that she will ALWAYS be fully taken care of financially, that she need never work outside the home.

But back to the film, what I really hate about how this film is being promoted is the fact that the beauty of Black women are being used as the butt of the joke.

The movement/philosophy is far more than about money or men and I think that's what's being missed and the mistake of WW feminists back in the day. Their focus was always far too narrow. The real issue about self-respect/valuing oneself as a woman and a full human being and that isn't something that WW, BW, or women in general are in excess of, IMHO.

Frankly what you said is the usual answer/excuse given and one that came along during/after the 2nd Civil Rights era. The post slavery-1920 era (the 1st CR movement) had a totally diff take. Conceding feminism/womenism to middle-upper class WW is a huge mistake, IMHO.

Perhaps the beauty of Black woman wouldn't be the butt of jokes if Black women didn't have their femininity stripped from them, even volutanrily by themselves.

 

[princessnad]

My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue. Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure

But why make a movie just to regurgitate that information? What did he do to further this discussion?

Since the movie was supposedly for his daughters, what will they take away from the film?

NOTHING. All he did was reinforce that mess.

His actions speak louder than words. Men don't care about hair he says but he called Oprah a "slave" and "mean" when pictures were shown with her natural hair at different times in her life. Then he nearly shatted on himself when he got to run his hands through her hair then called it "JLo hair".

That man disgusts me.

On another tangent, I think a lot of women on this board have a lot invested in being "exceptions" when it comes to black hair... like Oprah.

 

[gissellr78]

Yeah but to be honest, I still see alot of natural haired women with short hair! I mean it's not like it's long, and look shrinkage aside, I'm talking women that if there hair is straighten, it should be at least APL, and I don't see it.

I see a lot of natural heads in NY and they look Awesome! and i drool...Their is also alottttttt of women with relaxed healthy hair and a lot of weaves....NY is very balanced lol in this sense.

will watch the movie sunday.

 

[AsianAfricanPrincess]

I am proud of the strides that have been made by Black women but....

The Feminist Movement is viewed as a White Woman's fight because, in general, Black women have ALWAYS had to head up a household as a single female. Black women have ALWAYS had to have extra money saved in case her man left her. Black women have ALWAYS had to work outside of the home no matter how menial the job, regardless of whether or not she had children to care for. Its the legacy of slavery and beyond.

Black women, in general, have NEVER had the luxury of having her Black man putting her so high up on a pedestal that he didn't want her to work outside the home. Black women have never had the luxury of truly feeling that she will ALWAYS be fully taken care of financially, that she need never work outside the home.

But back to the film, what I really hate about how this film is being promoted is the fact that the beauty of Black women are being used as the butt of the joke.

Hey Lynnstar I really appreciate hearing your point of view, because it's a relief (for me) to see that we're at least having a discussion about these issues (it's so important to us and our daughters/sons). I think Jamaraa said a lot of what I wanted to say, but the concept of "feminism" encompasses so much more than issues of financial independence. Jada Pinkett Smith was kind enough to recommend this book a few years ago in a certain Black magazine, and I'm going to recommend it here - "Ain't I A Woman" by Bell Hooks is an excellent start if you're interested and haven't read it already.

Being a Black woman in the US and the issues thereby associated with it (both racial AND otherwise) are rarely addressed in the Black American community, outside of our financial independence and academic excellence.

We refer to ourselves (Black women) as "female" and we're not scientists. I think we're the only "racial" group to dehumanize women in this way (even Black women in the US often refer to themselves as "females", bypassing the more noble/human "woman". Sure, many of us don't think about this, but there is a reason, whether or not we want to examine it, as to why we're dehumanizing ourselves and fellow Black women in this way. A dog can be a "female". An animal can be "female". It's the base level of a species (male/female). But it can never be a "woman". We utilize terms for ourselves and fellow Black women...terms that are normally reserved for dogs and other animals. Why is this? Are we not women?

Frankly, the system has evolved in such a way that we as African-American women have become participants in our own oppression...and we often don't even realize it. How many of us will pay money to see this movie that mocks and derides Black women for the challenges and stigma they face regarding standards of beauty? Many of us are actually willing to pay to be openly mocked by a Black man, because we "love him" (huh?) or think he's funny. Many of us here don't see a problem with our people being openly derided and exploited for a dollar.

How many of us listen or dance to music that is clearly misogynist in its slant (yet another attempt at openly exploiting Black women for capital gain)? Don't we deserve better as African-American women?? Don't our children deserve better?

We can demand different for our daughters. It's never too late.

Ain't I a Woman is an excellent book. Hooks is far more well-versed than I am in that regard, and she's an amazing writer. If you've not yet read it, I highly recommend it!

 

[that_1_grrrl]

EXACTLY what I am thinking, AAP. What I hate about this movie is how exploitative it is. If this is "our" issue, then why does it need to be made into a public discussion. Black folks can discuss this issue on our own. Plus, White folks have proved again and again that they are not capable of learning anything about some of us without applying it to all of us.

This is all about making money, not opening a dialogue about Black hair issues. What good does it do us to have this movie? From what I've heard, he isn't saying anything the average Black woman hasn't heard before. Idk.

My problem with this movie is the way in which it has been promoted, as well as idiotic/buffoonish statements that he has made during its promotion.

He said it best himself: the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.

This was not meant to inspire some sort of serious, insightful dialogue amongst people of African descent. It was meant to fingerpoint and passively mock Black women for their beauty choices and challenges.

Personally, the minute this nitwit had the audacity to say on Oprah's show that Black men don't care about our hair (wha??), I knew it was time to ignore him. We need to demand better for ourselves as Black women and I refuse to accept this movie as a sincere effort to inspire dialogue amongst Black women.

Just a quote from What About Our Daughters (about a different C.Rock/Black women related topic:

"Yes yes. It was a joke. When is it ever NOT a joke when it comes to Black women. We’re always good for a laugh and a paycheck."

I refuse to drink his buffoon Kool-Aid. Black people and Black women deserve better...

And as my SO says, this is 'further proof that Black women need to be in control of telling their OWN stories'.

EDIT: Also, I do have a problem with him incorrectly addressing folks about it as if Black women own some sort of wig monopoly...I also have a problem with him automatically assuming that a Black woman with hair must have a weave (e.g. Oprah; he "accused" her not once, but twice)...and I would appreciate if he didn't make this movie. Regina Kimbel's treatment of My Nappy Roots would have been just fine for me. It's too bad that her movie was not promoted heavily...I darn sure would have watched that, instead.

I prefer to have my story as a woman, told by a woman. Not by a man who stereotypes and mocks.

 

[that_1_grrrl]

I agree. I have not seen to many Asian women who have hair that looks like a White woman's hair. In fact, I've heard White women say that they wish they had Asian hair and Asian women say they wanted White hair. So, meh.

I've actually seen Asian hair that, to me, looked similar to relaxed Black hair. Asia is such a big continent. It's hard to say what Asian hair is. There is a lot of diversity there, just as there is with ours.

I think that might be why Asian hair is marketed to both Blacks and Whites though. It seems to be able to mimic both textures with ease, imo. I'm talking about the quality hair, not the type that looks way too shiny to even be human hair.

One thing that sticks out here is how segregated so many folks are who don't know either Whites or Asian people on an intimate basis. If you've been in some Asian heads, you'll know that the hair is hardly the same as White hair....it's far coarser, heavier, and thicker and would look strange on their heads untreated. Those "extensions" WW buy are treated, just like the more natural textured ones marketed to Blacks.

The main diff between WW w/ weaves and Blacks is they simply spend more money for better hair and a better install. They usually have them maintained better too. Many of them dye the tracks to blend w/ their hair color better. In short, just because you can't tell they are wearing a weave doesn't mean they aren't....they simply get better "extensions" and care for them to the max.

 

[Junebug D]

dang..all that ..yall done dragged me thru the mud ..i ain't light..im brown
it wouldn't matter about my ancestors..my texture/type speaks for itself.

Lol, no mud dragging intended. I'm sure it would happen to *anyone* LHCF could put in a movie as an example. Even Oprah, I'm sure there's a bunch of black people saying "That's just because she's rich and uses $10,000 shampoo" or something.

 

[goodmorningruby]

Honestly, I can't wait until this is over.

 

[Kurlee]

That's because they don't got enough hair to do so. They always cut it super low, put water on it, and brush it 1000 times to get those "waves"

totally agree!!!! this obsession with cutting their hair off is ridiculous. They have the good hair complex too, but they don't get called on it and would never admit it.

 

[NikStarrr]

My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue. Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure

But why make a movie just to regurgitate that information? What did he do to further this discussion?

Since the movie was supposedly for his daughters, what will they take away from the film?

NOTHING. All he did was reinforce that mess.

His actions speak louder than words. Men don't care about hair he says but he called Oprah a "slave" and "mean" when pictures were shown with her natural hair at different times in her life. Then he nearly shatted on himself when he got to run his hands through her hair then called it "JLo hair".

That man disgusts me.

On another tangent, I think a lot of women on this board have a lot invested in being "exceptions" when it comes to black hair... like Oprah.

I think what he has done is of course, make fun of and is forcing black women to look at themselves and to see how far gone "we" have gone with this trying to get perfect/"good" hair. I mean, we went from (in the earlier times) scorching our hair straight with hot combs, to using a soap making chemical into our hair (lye) which later on became relaxer, to fast forward people importing Indian hair (which is now big business), etc. He says this was done for his daughters. Maybe he's hoping this poking fun and "putting on blast" at how ridiculous the whole hair thing has gotten will inspire some to embrace what they actually have naturally. I haven't seen the movie yet, so I guess I'm just trying to go into it with an optimistic attitude, more so.

 

[lynnstar]

Hey Lynnstar I really appreciate hearing your point of view, because it's a relief (for me) to see that we're at least having a discussion about these issues (it's so important to us and our daughters/sons). I think Jamaraa said a lot of what I wanted to say, but the concept of "feminism" encompasses so much more than issues of financial independence. Jada Pinkett Smith was kind enough to recommend this book a few years ago in a certain Black magazine, and I'm going to recommend it here - "Ain't I A Woman" by Bell Hooks is an excellent start if you're interested and haven't read it already.

Being a Black woman in the US and the issues thereby associated with it (both racial AND otherwise) are rarely addressed in the Black American community, outside of our financial independence and academic excellence.

We refer to ourselves (Black women) as "female" and we're not scientists. I think we're the only "racial" group to dehumanize women in this way (even Black women in the US often refer to themselves as "females", bypassing the more noble/human "woman". Sure, many of us don't think about this, but there is a reason, whether or not we want to examine it, as to why we're dehumanizing ourselves and fellow Black women in this way. A dog can be a "female". An animal can be "female". It's the base level of a species (male/female). But it can never be a "woman". We utilize terms for ourselves and fellow Black women...terms that are normally reserved for dogs and other animals. Why is this? Are we not women?

Frankly, the system has evolved in such a way that we as African-American women have become participants in our own oppression...and we often don't even realize it. How many of us will pay money to see this movie that mocks and derides Black women for the challenges and stigma they face regarding standards of beauty? Many of us are actually willing to pay to be openly mocked by a Black man, because we "love him" (huh?) or think he's funny. Many of us here don't see a problem with our people being openly derided and exploited for a dollar.

How many of us listen or dance to music that is clearly misogynist in its slant (yet another attempt at openly exploiting Black women for capital gain)? Don't we deserve better as African-American women?? Don't our children deserve better?

We can demand different for our daughters. It's never too late.

Ain't I a Woman is an excellent book. Hooks is far more well-versed than I am in that regard, and she's an amazing writer. If you've not yet read it, I highly recommend it!

I love bell hooks, too!

In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.

I do not believe that the movement born out of White women's need to prove their equality to White men really hits on our (Black) needs as women.

In many ways, Black women are victims of our own images; images (usually negative) that were created for us and images that we also sometimes continue to perpetuate, willingly.

Black women are viewed as unfeminine, workhorses, loud, aggressive, angry, overbearing, promiscuous, and on and on and on erplexed. And while White women were clamoring for the "rights" to be many of these exact same things, we should be looking to run far, far away from these same images.

Black women can not afford to embrace many of the fundamentals of the Feminist Movement. We actually need to embrace the "feminine chains" that White women are so desperate to throw off. We need to be put on that pedestal and cherished. Because in the end, it is about men and money (and how we are viewed, how we are treated differently, etc).

Black women have already proven that we can "take care of ourselves" and "do it all". Of all other races of women in America, Black women are the least likely to marry, the most likely to head a single parent household, most likely to have children out of wedlock....

The last thing we need is a film that mocks "our" beauty rituals. We need to take back our dignity!

 

[Lita]

Just about every?

Must be a regional thing: you will find countless of long, healthy haired, Black women rocking their own hair Brooklyn, NY.

Shout out to my long haired sistahs up in Canarsie!

I live in BK,NYC..Some-times people ask me (Are you mixed Question's) or want to pull my hair..We have a long way to goooo...

Chris Rock???????????

 

[nathansgirl1908]

My problem with this movie is the way in which it has been promoted, as well as idiotic/buffoonish statements that he has made during its promotion.

He said it best himself: the movie was meant to be a "humorous" lens into Black (women's) hair.

This was not meant to inspire some sort of serious, insightful dialogue amongst people of African descent. It was meant to fingerpoint and passively mock Black women for their beauty choices and challenges.

THANK YOU. I think so as well. Chris Rock gets on my last nerve. I have never cared for him and his attitude and comments on Oprah reiterate this.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

Watching now.
@ this woman who wrote in that said YT women's hair is basically an advantage and it's why they get our men.

My goodness. I didn't know it went there..

When Oprah was reading that letter...I can't even describe the disgust I was feeling. That's why she didn't want to be seen on television or be revealed in any way. She knew what she was saying was stupid as h#$%.

 

[Maracujá]

My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue. Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure

But why make a movie just to regurgitate that information? What did he do to further this discussion?

Since the movie was supposedly for his daughters, what will they take away from the film?

NOTHING. All he did was reinforce that mess.

Thank you wasn't enough, this sums up very well how I feel about this movie. Before seeing it I thought he was going to promote natural hair...boy was I wrong.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

I was embarassed over the first letter that Oprah read trying to sound more ethnic to get the point across. But what was embarassing was the fact that the writer said that white women had an advantage over black women because of the hair especially with the black men who coveted in her words "silky hair", now for Oprah to even allow herself to read such a letter was really a shock because it gives the impression that all black women feel this way.

Second that the black women in the audience did not believe it was Oprah's hair and Oprah let them do a weave check during the commercials. Will people now feel it's okay to demand to do weave checks? And shame on the black women, it came off very poorly.

Chris Rock saying that he has never been a degrader of women. Maybe he has changed but in 1991, that comedy act was mostly about black women (focusing on their weight and hair), so he can try and re-package himself all he wants. I was in the audience and I walked out then and I usually find most things silly and funny.

When asked by the black women about her hair, Oprah said it was because she has a hairdresser. I mean come-on are black women incapable of growing long hair without a hairdresser?

Oprah these days is just winging her shows now, not as prepared as she used to be.

Best,
Almond Eyes

Oprah showed poor judgment in reading that letter in my opinion. And you could feel how uneasy people were in the audience.

Chris is a liar when he says he isn't about degrading people, because as you pointed out he has done comedy where he mocked and degraded black women.

With respect to those two black women, they both deserve a jackass award for that. Even though I can understand why someone would feel offended by Oprah's remark about having a hairdresser, if you notice, she was angry and she spoke without thinking. But she came back and tried to smooth it over by saying that she had the same hairdresser who helped her keep her hair on her head. But I wasn't offended by it in the least because at that point she should've played their faces. It was stupid for them to insist that it wasn't her hair. Just shows how these myths about black women not being able to grow long hair are continuing to be perpetuated by our own people.

 

[AsianAfricanPrincess]

I love bell hooks, too!

In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.

I do not believe that the movement born out of White women's need to prove their equality to White men really hits on our (Black) needs as women.

In many ways, Black women are victims of our own images; images (usually negative) that were created for us and images that we also sometimes continue to perpetuate, willingly.

Black women are viewed as unfeminine, workhorses, loud, aggressive, angry, overbearing, promiscuous, and on and on and on erplexed. And while White women were clamoring for the "rights" to be many of these exact same things, we should be looking to run far, far away from these same images.

Black women can not afford to embrace many of the fundamentals of the Feminist Movement. We actually need to embrace the "feminine chains" that White women are so desperate to throw off. We need to be put on that pedestal and cherished. Because in the end, it is about men and money (and how we are viewed, how we are treated differently, etc).

Black women have already proven that we can "take care of ourselves" and "do it all". Of all other races of women in America, Black women are the least likely to marry, the most likely to head a single parent household, most likely to have children out of wedlock....

The last thing we need is a film that mocks "our" beauty rituals. We need to take back our dignity!

Hey Lynnstar, if you haven't seen them already, give Bell Hooks' youtube videos a gander. I find that Angela Davis, even Bell Hooks address "Black Feminism" (I don't like to use this term, but it's the best I can come up with to articulate the point). As for "mainstream feminism" from our White counterparts, I don't really pay attention to it, to be honest. Because the things that we're trying to overcome as Black women are very specific to us (e.g. the small examples I gave in my earlier post). However, although our needs or concerns are often different, they still qualify as "feminism", albeit specifically for Black women.

When we speak of feminism (myself and other posters), I believe we are more specifically addressing feminism in regard to Black women.

I would like to have the luxury of White women to protest against inequal pay/salaries, but unfortunately I'm still trying to fight for the right to not be addressed as a "b!tch" or a "***" or a "female" by Black men and Black women...we're still trying to overcome the Sapphire steroetype...the list goes on.

But this is OUR feminism. And this feminism should appeal to all of us, as we and our daughters/sons have an investment in its success. So do Black men (hence, our sons)...whether or not they (or we) realize it.

 

[AsianAfricanPrincess]

It was stupid for them to insist that it wasn't her hair. Just shows how these myths about black women not being able to grow long hair are continuing to be perpetuated by our own people.

I actually had someone here on this board tell me that Black women are not able to grow their hair as long as "others".

You would think that perusing this board and their associated Fotkis would lead someone to disregard such a myth...but alas, the sense that is inferiority fights like hell to remain alive and well.

 

[Daughter]

totally agree!!!! this obsession with cutting their hair off is ridiculous. They have the good hair complex too, but they don't get called on it and would never admit it.

And lest we forget, the good old S-curl!

 

[Daughter]

I love bell hooks, too!

In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.

I do not believe that the movement born out of White women's need to prove their equality to White men really hits on our (Black) needs as women.

I would also add working class women (black or white) to that equation as well.

 

[Duchesse]

My problem with his movie is that it does nothing to further any thoughts on the issue. Do a lot of black women wear weaves? yes.
Do a lot of black women prefer straight silky hair? yes
Do a lot of black women and men consider kinky hair bad hair? Sure

But why make a movie just to regurgitate that information? What did he do to further this discussion?

Since the movie was supposedly for his daughters, what will they take away from the film?

NOTHING. All he did was reinforce that mess.

I agree entirely with the bolded!

I went to see the film last night at a Magic Johnson theater in Harlem. (Sidenote..they were selling "Curls" Hair products in the lobby..that was funny.)

Yes there were some knee slapping guffaw funny moments. But I left with an overwhelming feeling of "okay...now what?". 10 years from now if his daughters see the film, I can't think of anything that they would have learned.

All in all, Chris Rock did a god job of exposing the foolish things that black women do to their heads, and made black women look like fools. He could have taken it deeper, maybe exploring in a serious matter the history of self hate and the standards of beauty. The why's of getting a perm and spending food money on weaves, rather than in famous Chris Rock voice baring all teefuses "Deeze women are crazy!"

What really got me was this trio of white folks sitting in front of me..two guys and a girl. The guy who was directly in front of my chair was laughing incredibly loud during the movie...but it was like that Dave Chappelle incident...lauighing at the women in a way that made me want to kick him in the back of his skull.

As much as I love Chris, I kinda give him a thumbs down for this film. It had potential for serious social commentary, but all it did IMO was make a mockery of BW.

 

[jamaraa]

Oprah showed poor judgment in reading that letter in my opinion. And you could feel how uneasy people were in the audience.

Chris is a liar when he says he isn't about degrading people, because as you pointed out he has done comedy where he mocked and degraded black women.

With respect to those two black women, they both deserve a jackass award for that. Even though I can understand why someone would feel offended by Oprah's remark about having a hairdresser, if you notice, she was angry and she spoke without thinking. But she came back and tried to smooth it over by saying that she had the same hairdresser who helped her keep her hair on her head. But I wasn't offended by it in the least because at that point she should've played their faces. It was stupid for them to insist that it wasn't her hair. Just shows how these myths about black women not being able to grow long hair are continuing to be perpetuated by our own people.

In fairness to CR, he's mocked all sorts of people including Black men.

Why should they be offended by her hairdresser remark? She's on tv everyday in addition to being a very wealthy woman...so of course she had a hairdresser on call. LOL...the same dude who gave us this alphabet soup hair typing drama.

That Oprah allowed those two idiots to feel her head as if she were a puppy says lots about all involved. There's a notable lack of self-respect in that situation by all involved. That whole thing was just triflin'.

 

[jamaraa]

I love bell hooks, too!

In terms of the Feminist Movement, though, I think that in a general sense it has never really addressed the specific issues of Black women.

I do not believe that the movement born out of White women's need to prove their equality to White men really hits on our (Black) needs as women.

In many ways, Black women are victims of our own images; images (usually negative) that were created for us and images that we also sometimes continue to perpetuate, willingly.

Black women are viewed as unfeminine, workhorses, loud, aggressive, angry, overbearing, promiscuous, and on and on and on erplexed. And while White women were clamoring for the "rights" to be many of these exact same things, we should be looking to run far, far away from these same images.

Black women can not afford to embrace many of the fundamentals of the Feminist Movement. We actually need to embrace the "feminine chains" that White women are so desperate to throw off. We need to be put on that pedestal and cherished. Because in the end, it is about men and money (and how we are viewed, how we are treated differently, etc).

Black women have already proven that we can "take care of ourselves" and "do it all". Of all other races of women in America, Black women are the least likely to marry, the most likely to head a single parent household, most likely to have children out of wedlock....

The last thing we need is a film that mocks "our" beauty rituals. We need to take back our dignity!

The way Black women are viewed was originally put in place by WM for their own purposes, but then again this also applies to WW. BM actively uphold the traditional WM views of women's roles while not buying into their views about men's roles...so the situation is complicated.

Black women DO NOT need to be on a pedestal cuz as we know, pedestals are greased in America and you are guaranteed to fall off w/ a loud THUD. Black women need to be viewed as full human beings...not some some superwoman myth. Being worshiped is just the flip side of being reviled....both are prisons created by men and upheld by women. Men get/keep control and women get/keep a dodge to full personhood w/ the responsibilities that come w/ it.

I'm sorry, but I can't say that BW proved that they can make it on their own. On the contrary, I think this is why so many (tho certainly not all) BW are so miserable thus fulfilling the "Sapphire" stereotype" way too often. The fact that BW HAVE been abandoned is NOT testiment to THEIR positive traits, but what they've been focred to deal w/. The societal results don't bear this out. Frankily too many BW are treading water and going under.. If this were the case, BW would NOT keep pining for traditional notions of femininity attrituted to WW.

If BW had it together as well as you think, why are people so up in arms about this doc? Why all this handwringing about PROVING we can grow our hair long? Why the fear of mockery? A healthy population can laugh at itself, so what does the reaction we're seeing say? Is long hair the one trait many BW are using to "prove" their femininity? I truly hope not, but fear it may be so.

Men and money are APART of life, but much of the reason WHY BW are having problems maintaining BOTH is because BW have been put and choose to remain in a situation where they don't embrace their full humanity. Going back to the WW's cast off 1950s suburban myth ain't no solution.

 

[that_1_grrrl]

Oh yeah! We're supposedly enlightened but how many times has it been said on here that Black women can not grow as long as other races? I've heard people say that most Black women probably won't get past WL, maybe TBL.

There is always a glass ceiling for us.

I actually had someone here on this board tell me that Black women are not able to grow their hair as long as "others".

You would think that perusing this board and their associated Fotkis would lead someone to disregard such a myth...but alas, the sense that is inferiority fights like hell to remain alive and well.

 

[jamaraa]

Hey Lynnstar, if you haven't seen them already, give Bell Hooks' youtube videos a gander. I find that Angela Davis, even Bell Hooks address "Black Feminism" (I don't like to use this term, but it's the best I can come up with to articulate the point). As for "mainstream feminism" from our White counterparts, I don't really pay attention to it, to be honest. Because the things that we're trying to overcome as Black women are very specific to us (e.g. the small examples I gave in my earlier post). However, although our needs or concerns are often different, they still qualify as "feminism", albeit specifically for Black women.

When we speak of feminism (myself and other posters), I believe we are more specifically addressing feminism in regard to Black women.

I would like to have the luxury of White women to protest against inequal pay/salaries, but unfortunately I'm still trying to fight for the right to not be addressed as a "b!tch" or a "***" or a "female" by Black men and Black women...we're still trying to overcome the Sapphire steroetype...the list goes on.

But this is OUR feminism. And this feminism should appeal to all of us, as we and our daughters/sons have an investment in its success. So do Black men (hence, our sons)...whether or not they (or we) realize it.

Womanism seems the preferred term embraced by women of color, tho I used feminism w/ it so people would know what I was talking about.

 

[jamaraa]

I agree. I have not seen to many Asian women who have hair that looks like a White woman's hair. In fact, I've heard White women say that they wish they had Asian hair and Asian women say they wanted White hair. So, meh.

I've actually seen Asian hair that, to me, looked similar to relaxed Black hair. Asia is such a big continent. It's hard to say what Asian hair is. There is a lot of diversity there, just as there is with ours.

I think that might be why Asian hair is marketed to both Blacks and Whites though. It seems to be able to mimic both textures with ease, imo. I'm talking about the quality hair, not the type that looks way too shiny to even be human hair.

Exactly to all. Due to the thickness and coarseness of Asian hair, at least the stuff they seek for extensions, it can be treated to mimic all sorts of hair textures and still look good.

Of course Asia is a very diverse continent, but Indian hair seems to be the flavor of the month these days.

 

[jamaraa]

Hey Lynnstar I really appreciate hearing your point of view, because it's a relief (for me) to see that we're at least having a discussion about these issues (it's so important to us and our daughters/sons). I think Jamaraa said a lot of what I wanted to say, but the concept of "feminism" encompasses so much more than issues of financial independence. Jada Pinkett Smith was kind enough to recommend this book a few years ago in a certain Black magazine, and I'm going to recommend it here - "Ain't I A Woman" by Bell Hooks is an excellent start if you're interested and haven't read it already.

Being a Black woman in the US and the issues thereby associated with it (both racial AND otherwise) are rarely addressed in the Black American community, outside of our financial independence and academic excellence.

We refer to ourselves (Black women) as "female" and we're not scientists. I think we're the only "racial" group to dehumanize women in this way (even Black women in the US often refer to themselves as "females", bypassing the more noble/human "woman". Sure, many of us don't think about this, but there is a reason, whether or not we want to examine it, as to why we're dehumanizing ourselves and fellow Black women in this way. A dog can be a "female". An animal can be "female". It's the base level of a species (male/female). But it can never be a "woman". We utilize terms for ourselves and fellow Black women...terms that are normally reserved for dogs and other animals. Why is this? Are we not women?

Frankly, the system has evolved in such a way that we as African-American women have become participants in our own oppression...and we often don't even realize it. How many of us will pay money to see this movie that mocks and derides Black women for the challenges and stigma they face regarding standards of beauty? Many of us are actually willing to pay to be openly mocked by a Black man, because we "love him" (huh?) or think he's funny. Many of us here don't see a problem with our people being openly derided and exploited for a dollar.

How many of us listen or dance to music that is clearly misogynist in its slant (yet another attempt at openly exploiting Black women for capital gain)? Don't we deserve better as African-American women?? Don't our children deserve better?

We can demand different for our daughters. It's never too late.

Ain't I a Woman is an excellent book. Hooks is far more well-versed than I am in that regard, and she's an amazing writer. If you've not yet read it, I highly recommend it!

That's a VERY interesting point about the word "female". Part of this is an American thing, IMHO. Americans seem to dislike the word "woman" and to seek to avoid it. I think it's tied up in the obsesson w/ youth and the fear of growing up/old. How many people go around calling themselves and other adult women "girls"? That's an across racial line thing. The French, who have a femininity fetish , revel in the word "woman" (ie femme). To them the greatest thing you can be a la femme. I discuessed w/ a French friend of mine and she thought it sad. Nothing better than being "les femmes" in her book! I agreed w/ her.

Tho I rarely hear WW use the term "female" to describe themselves (I never hear this from non Americans..Black or otherwise). I think much of the sentiments are the same. Neither group really embrace the idea of being a WOMAN in all it's complications. A "girl" is a latent woman and a "female" is merely someone who posesses the gender traits, but neither are women w/ all the adult complications. Either womanhood is stereotyped as "hearth and home" caregivers AND/OR as being unsexy. erplexed Tho how could anyone think "female" is sexy is beyond me. That terms simply removes and any all sense of grace/value for being a woman, IMHO.

You said your guy is from Cameroon...I'm curious how women there refer to themselves and how they are referred to? I know many African women resent being referred to as "baby" or "girl" cuz they feel womanhood should be prized, not youth and immaturity. I hate to think at how they'd react to being referred to as a "female".

I have to say I'm enjoying this convo. It's a rarely discussed issue in our hair quests!