Black women confront Chris Rock on Oprah Today

well, there are features that are unmixed African features. Many Arabs are mixed.


Our features are African. If there are features in Africans that are also present in Arabs, then they have OUR features. They don't own or have some monopoly on African features.

These are ours and if Arabs happen to also share them for some reason, then they should consider themselves fortunate to be blessed with our beauty.
 
WOW you guys have great posts and I'm really learning/enjoying this. If nothing else, Chris Rock will make all women of color think about the things they do and WHY they do it.

My best friend in HS was (is) a white Cambodian. She told me that the dark Cambodians were mostly poor and the white Cambodians were rich and would look down upon the dark skinned Cambodians. So this isn't just an American black and white thing, this is much deeper than that.
 
Aishwarya is clearly mixed. She is genuinely Indian like Vanessa Williams is genuinely black.
I have to respectfully disagree. She is not "clearly mixed" and the comparison to Vanessa is fallacious. Based on your comparison, I'm assuming that you mean "mixed" to mean w/ white blood within the last 200-300 years - please clarify. Aishwarya and the many Indians who look like her are Indian. The issue is that people's definition of what constitutes "Indian" is narrow. Like I said earlier, if you look back to the art of ancient India [or more appropriately, the regions that make up what is now known as "India], you'll see plenty of deities and people that look like her. Taking into consideration the African populations that were bought to the Americas and the history of race relations in America, Vanessa Williams is clearly mixed (her family actually comes from the same small Long Island town as my grandma's).
It is not necessary to dilute someone's ethnicity to the nth degree, to the point that you can barely see anything but Euro, to find a person that is "the most beautiful," imo.
I agree but you're conflating one issue (a genuine Indian who appears to the untrained non-Indian eye to be "mixed") with the other (prizing the beauty of those whose features appear diluted compared to the stereotypical appearance of others in their ethnic/racial group).
 
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While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies). Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features. Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story. However, they are African and they look African.

Honestly, these two statements sparked a great discourse between me and my SO. Why do we not state the Arabs look African?? Why are Eritraen features considered Arab? Why are Arab features not considered to look African??

Why are we constantly handing over what is ours, to yet another group of people? I don't understand this. It's almost as if we somehow feel that we cannot "own" anything...as if we are not capable of setting the standard for something. Everything that is ours must be appropriated by others, and "others" eventually claim ownership to it...with us handing it over without protest.

We're constantly handing over ownership of what is ours. I don't get it.

EDIT: My SO just said it best: If something is considered "good" or "beautiful" we cannot attribute it to ourselves. We first think, "what are the references of beauty?..." and then immediately attribute it to being Eurocentric, Arab, and so on...


EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! They existed prior to Europeans so I do not understand this.

It all comes down to racist European categorization of African peoples. Look at the Khoisan. They have the nerve to put them in a seperate race of "Capoid" just because their hair and eyes are different. Even though it has been proven that they are RELATED to other Africans on the continent. I've even seen attempts to label many Tuareg people "white" when they skin color was jet-black.
Africa is really diverse, and these Eurocentric lies about "mixing" with other people is laughable? Who in the world came from Europe to mix with these peoples thousands of years ago? LOL!
 
You don't think a 100% Indian person can look like her?

She's absolutely beautiful, but I would have to say that 99% of the Indian woman I know don't look like her. I don't know any Indian women with greenish/blue eyes http://www.topnews.in/files/Aishwarya-Rai_2.jpg Not to say they don't exist, I just don't know any

Most of my Indian co-workers and neighbors have dark skin, long black beautiful hair
405407365_2dec293fd7.jpg
 
People, even in some Vedic texts, it states a preference for lighter skin. So colorism is much OLDER and DEEPER than a result of British colonization.
 
Aishwarya is clearly mixed. She is genuinely Indian like Vanessa Williams is genuinely black.

It is not necessary to dilute someone's ethnicity to the nth degree, to the point that you can barely see anything but Euro, to find a person that is "the most beautiful," imo. Case in point:
Agbani-Darego-2.jpg


IMO, Aishwarya is the most beautiful euro, not the most beautiful Indian.

Trust me, she isn't. I've seen pictures of both her parents.
 
I have to respectfully disagree. She is not "clearly mixed" and the comparison to Vanessa is fallacious. Based on your comparison, I'm assuming that you mean "mixed" to mean w/ white blood within the last 200-300 years - please clarify. Aishwarya and the many Indians who look like her are Indian. The issue is that people's definition of what constitutes "Indian" is narrow. Like I said earlier, if you look back to the art of ancient India [or more appropriately, the regions that make up what is now known as "India], you'll see plenty of deities and people that look like her. Taking into consideration the African populations that were bought to the Americas and the history of race relations in America, Vanessa Williams is clearly mixed (her family actually comes from the same small Long Island town as my grandma's).

I agree but you're conflating one issue (a genuine Indian who appears to the untrained non-Indian eye to be "mixed") with the other (prizing the beauty of those whose features appear diluted compared to the stereotypical appearance of others in their ethnic/racial group).

With white blood ever.

That it exists in art does not mean it is not attributable to outsiders.

Two people from ethnic groups known to be dark, who are prized as extremely beautiful, who have Euro features. Colonialism at work. what's to conflate?
 
IMO, Aishwarya is the most beautiful euro, not the most beautiful Indian.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! This statement reminds me of when Ash was interviewed on 60 minutes and the WM interviewer paid her a "compliment" - "you're a Greek beauty with an Indian heart".:perplexed I think his [not necessarily your] comment goes back to the assertion that AsianAfricanPrincess made - heavens forbid a certain group display a type of beauty that challenges the stereotypes and perceived "monopoly" that another group holds. Can't have that! So Ash, with her light skin and green eyes can't just be taken as an Indian beauty (believe me, her beauty is quite typical of Indian tradition, esp in certain regions), no she must be "Euro".

As far as her being the most beautiful Indian, the concept in of itself is absurd. But I will once again emphasize that she is quite representative of one of the archetypes of Indian beauty/looks.

[And just so you know, Fluffy, I'm not getting heated. I just think this topic makes for very interesting discussion.:grin:)
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa! This statement reminds me of when Ash was interviewed on 60 minutes and the WM interviewer paid her a "compliment" - "you're a Greek beauty with an Indian heart".:perplexed I think his [not necessarily your] comment goes back to the assertion that AsianAfricanPrincess made - heavens forbid a certain group display a type of beauty that challenges the stereotypes and perceived "monopoly" that another group holds. Can't have that! So Ash, with her light skin and green eyes can't just be taken as an Indian beauty (believe me, her beauty is quite typical of Indian tradition, esp in certain regions), no she must be "Euro".

As far as her being the most beautiful Indian, the concept in of itself is absurd. But I will once again emphasize that she is quite representative of one of the archetypes of Indian beauty/looks.

[And just so you know, Fluffy, I'm not getting heated. I just think this topic makes for very interesting discussion.:grin:)

rosa praeclara, are you Indian? I meant to ask this months ago. I'm just curious so please don't take offense.
Yes she is absolutely beautiful. I don't know if she represents Indian women as a whole. I understand what you're saying though. You can find a white, blue eyed Dominican but she won't represent the island as a whole. Most women are dark like me.
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa! This statement reminds me of when Ash was interviewed on 60 minutes and the WM interviewer paid her a "compliment" - "you're a Greek beauty with an Indian heart".:perplexed I think his [not neccesarily your] comment goes back to the assertion that AsianAfricanPrincess made - heavens forbid a certain group display a type of beauty of challenges the stereotypes and perceived "monopoly" that another group holds. Can't have that! So Ash, with her light skin and green eyes can't just be taken as an Indian beauty (believe me, her beauty is quite typical of Indian tradition, esp in certain regions), no she must be "Euro".

As far as her being the most beautiful Indian, the concept in of itself is absurd. But I will once again emphasize that she is quite representative of one of the archetypes of Indian beauty/looks.

[And just so you know, Fluffy, I'm not getting heated. I just think this topic makes for very interesting discussion.:grin:)

Cool. But I don't think yt features are a "power" that can be held as a monopoly. They only have value because we (currently) believe they do. They're really not all that.

And if she is "representative of an archetype" that's only evidence that outsiders were all up and through there, imo.

It has too much in common with the Hutu/tutsi thing, LS DS among AAs and erbody else's colorism issues for me to believe otherwise. If it were truly random, there would be some place where dark skin is more prized.
 
I think it's interesting, just looking at a map, where South Indians and Southern Africans are the darkest and in both places the north has the lighter people, and the northern (mixing pot) happens to be more easily accessible to others. In Europe, it's opposite. The south is the Mixing pot and the Italians are the darkest, the most remote, northernmost are the lightest.

Arguably, I would call Arabs themselves Africans. It's arbitrary where the "Middle East" lines were drawn. Call them Africans. It's semantics. They still happen to have a lot in common with people who are closer geographically than they do with people who are on the same continent but in less accessible regions.

world.gif
 
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While I know that this is not the intention, I think statements like these reinforce the notion that there is only ONE way to look African - usually the stereotypical depiction of Africans (e.g. the Pygmies). Africa is a diverse continent and there is an amazing variety of features. Fulanis look African and whether or not their features are considered more in line with our ideals in the West - that is another story. However, they are African and they look African.

.

You say this like Fulanis, Somalians, etc have no link to Arabs when they do.

Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.
 
With white blood ever.

Well, I'd have to ask what your definition of "white" blood. Are the Aryans, Mughals, Persians or native Indian groups that have been in India for eons "white" bc they happen to have some traits in common with Euros? For that matter, is any Indian whose features fall outside the realm of stereotype considered "mixed"? This thinking is predicated on a very narrow view of what "undiluted" Indians look like. There are various ethnic groups that comprise India. There is no one or even, two, three, or four Indian "looks". There are many "looks" and Ash and people who look like her represent one of them, which predates euros.
That it exists in art does not mean it is not attributable to outsiders.
True. But my point is that in native depictions of their own deities, myths and daily life, her look is quite common. I use art bc photos only back but so far and bc some people might refute a snapshot of the current Indian population as not representative of "undiluted" India (although it mostly is).

Two people from ethnic groups known to be dark, who are prized as extremely beautiful, who have Euro features. Colonialism at work. what's to conflate?
And therein lies the issue. Known to be dark by who? There is an incredible range of skin tones and phenotypes in the Indian population. To assume that bc Ash happens to have features in common with Euro is "colonialism at work" and why she's considered beautiful is tenuous - plausible, but tenuous. Even if we do accept that this is why her beauty is exalted, this notion doesn't detract from the fact that she's genuinely Indian and her beauty is representative of such. That's where the conflation is coming in - seeking to define the extent of her "Indian-ness" based on whether or not she happens to have features in common with the Europeans who once colonized India. It's not logically sound and history and reality proves it to be untrue.
 
rosa praeclara, are you Indian? I meant to ask this months ago. I'm just curious so please don't take offense.
Yes she is absolutely beautiful. I don't know if she represents Indian women as a whole. I understand what you're saying though. You can find a white, blue eyed Dominican but she won't represent the island as a whole. Most women are dark like me.
:lol: No offense taken. Nope, I'm not. I meant to say in an earlier post that "I really dunno bc I have no authority on this, as I'm not Indian". I would say that I'm an "Indophile":grin:. I have relatives and friends who are Indo-Caribbean and I have Indian friends. But that's about it...
 
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And here's a breakout of Europe.

Following this logic, you would expect the parts that touch Africa to be associated with darker people. Turkish, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, all look like that which we call "middle easterners," imo. Armenia is somewhere in there, for Kim K. nem.

europe_map.gif
 
You say this like Fulanis, Somalians, etc have no link to Arabs when they do.

Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.


If you reread my post, I speak of the "ownership" of these "features". Why do they "look Arab"?? (I was speaking of the Eritraens.) Why can't the Arabs not look Eritraen or African?? Is it because we're not capable of owning those features?

I didn't go reading back, but I'm pretty sure that I never mentioned Fulanis and Arabs together...because that's something that I would never get into on this board. I've learned quickly from my SO that much of what Africans are telling their own or being told about "contact" with others and about themselves is often based on what is told to them by missionaries and past colonizers. So I would not get into that on this board...I'd prefer to save that for an academic setting.
 
It is interesting. I think Ash is actually from a coastal Southern town and there are ethnic groups who tend to be light in South India also. Proximity to the equator obviously plays a role in the skin tones of populations but people are always moving and/or mixing, so proximity to the coast and land routes, along with settling and dispersion patterns also play a role in appearance.

I think it's interesting, just looking at a map, where South Indians and Southern Africans are the darkest and in both places the north has the lighter people, and the northern (mixing pot) happens to be more easily accessible to others. In Europe, it's opposite. The south is the Mixing pot and the Italians are the darkest, the most remote, northernmost are the lightest.

Arguably, I would call Arabs themselves Africans. It's arbitrary where the "Middle East" lines were drawn. Call them Africans. It's semantics. They still happen to have a lot in common with people who are closer geographically than they do with people who are on the same continent but in less accessible regions.

world.gif
 
And therein lies the issue. Known to be dark by who? There is an incredible range of skin tones and phenotypes in the Indian population.
Because the North Indians are in a geographic location where a lot of mixing has gone on.

Because they're mixed, especially in the north. Looking at the map, what's stopping outsiders from crossing those borders? To assume that bc Ash happens to have features in common with Euro is "colonialism at work" and why she's considered beautiful is tenuous - plausible, but tenuous.
Now, you know... She is very beautiful, but tons of girls, just as beautiful with a darker complexion are not even on the worldwide radar.

she's genuinely Indian and her beauty is representative of such. That's where the conflation is coming in - seeking to define the extent of her "Indian-ness" based on whether or not she happens to have features in common with the Europeans who once colonized India. It's not logically sound and history and reality proves it to be untrue.

As far as her appearance, she is just as genuinely European or Middle Eastern, IMO. Where someone drew the lines didn't stop folks from getting together.
 
Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.


Sorry, I just wanted to ask one more question...especially since some people thanked you on this: you mentioned, "the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features". Do the Arabs have their features? Or do they (any group) have Arab features? If so, why?? Why do the Arabs not have THEIR (Africans) features?

Again, I don't understand this...
 
That's not true necessarily. All of my African family history has been passed down through the generations, mouth to mouth and some of it also recorded so not all Africans have had their history passed to them from the colonizers or missionaries . For example, in my family our line came down from Sudan and migrated to West Africa.

Best,
Almond Eyes
 
You say this like Fulanis, Somalians, etc have no link to Arabs when they do.

Not like we're picking random Africans and claiming they look Arabs, the ones that have HISTORY with Arabs will most likely have the features. Simple as that.

DNA has proven that these populations are not "mixed."
 
That's not true necessarily. All of my African family history has been passed down through the generations, mouth to mouth and some of it also recorded so not all Africans have had their history passed to them from the colonizers or missionaries . For example, in my family our line came down from Sudan and migrated to West Africa.

Best,
Almond Eyes

Are you Hausa?
 
DNA has proven that these populations are not "mixed."

I don't know about Fulani people, but regarding Somalis and Ethiopians, I'll believe my eyes before I believe scientific findings. Scientist have "new findings" every day.
middle_east_map.jpg


Everywhere else in the world, where there are no major barriers, people get together and mix. But here, we're supposed to believe the difference in appearance and why it occurred where it did is just a coincidence?

Not buying it.
 
That's not true necessarily. All of my African family history has been passed down through the generations, mouth to mouth and some of it also recorded so not all Africans have had their history passed to them from the colonizers or missionaries . For example, in my family our line came down from Sudan and migrated to West Africa.

Best,
Almond Eyes


Hey Almond Eyes :) In my original statement, I said the following: "...so that much of what Africans are telling..."

I think it's pretty self-explanatory that it's impossible to say "all" anyway. But, I used the word "much" meaning "some" or "many", etc.

I feel like I sound sarcastic for saying that, but it is not my intention at all. I just wanted to point out that I never said "all" anyway.
 
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