Wine
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Titus 2:1-3
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober- minded, dignified, self- controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine.
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober- minded, dignified, self- controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine.
Hen 9:9 - 17
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Colossians 2:16 -23
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” ( referring to things that all perish as they are used) —according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self- made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” ( referring to things that all perish as they are used) —according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self- made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Scripture cautions against over indulgence, however, if one wants a glass of wine then according to scripture that's not a bad thing. It isn't sin, however, lets say I wanted a piece of bacon and my sister doesn't eat pork. I wouldn't eat that around her.
1Cor 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient:all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats:but God shall destroy both it and them.
Rom 14: 12-17
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more:but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1Cor 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient:all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats:but God shall destroy both it and them.
Rom 14: 12-17
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more:but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
JaneBond007
New Member
Well, honestly, that is not me, tho. I'm not making excuses like that.
You say you attended Mass, but were you catholic? Anybody can go to catholic school but not all students can take the eucharist. Not all students are enrolled in the catechism studies. I would assume that you didn't have a deep knowledge of why and how and if G-d approved? That might be one reason it seemed so wrong for you.
I would say that you need to know the Jewish roots of your faith in order to put things into perspective. And those studies can last a lifetime to truly get the proper perspective. For me, the New Testament often doesn't make sense so I'm trying to come at it from the other direction, like, where on earth did they get this? I need and am seeking deep study in both. No, take that back, I am receiving because I'm discounting a group of wonderful people elsewhere who are guiding me in that. I guess they can count as "studies."
I need to think about this before I type it. I've already jacked up once today
...oh L-rd...but I'm going to say that, in your perspective that it is wrong and never happened when we've also learned that it is preference of several in the SDA and not their official teaching, the feeling of insult derives from your feeling that another is not walking the right path. Again, I'd point to learning the true Jewish roots of your faith and not just dietary laws but the reasons behind them and other laws to get a better understanding. Thing is, so many in CF do not believe other writings are necessary. This is how catholics and Jews differ (other than Jesus as Messiah) from you in that we have the sacred oral laws and their explanation in addition to scripture. It's kinda like "what came first, chicken or egg?" Well, that is true. This is why I am catholic. I'd somewhat agree with that but it was due to abuses. However, Martin Luther left the church and didn't push to reform some issues of indulgence etc. within it. That is the reason there are so many diff. ways. Yes, they are continuously doing it their own way...away from the orthodoxy. But that doesn't mean they aren't part of the Body at all. G-d heals and knows the heart.
And yes, again, I am following what He instituted on earth as His Church and that what He says about the apostolic tradition etc....it's not following sinners. I guess like all of us, in varying degrees, we are still looking for that one thing that will raise us up to the next level. Just please know that some of this is your own preference and doesn't equate another with sin or trying to live as they want. There are prohibitions etc. and the rest is largely up to choice/tradition/culture etc.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
not sure where your corrections are, there is no Altar in the SDA churches, now if your church has an altar well that is something. Also they do not say come to the Altar, thats not in the SDA church. But they do say come up. there is no altar to kneel at, but since you said there is, please explain, since this is a new thing for me and you have been Adventist all your life. In everything that is done there is a biblical reason that we can refer to and you evidently say I am wrong please correct me so that I am prepared to give an answer for why we do what we do. Because in this I am lost. What I was saying was I do not like that he calls people up. What is the purpose of it. Why would anyone go to the "Altar" I went to the altar because I had a special request, before I became SDA. Now I know that there is no need to go to the Altar even for that request there is more to it but it escapes me at the moment. I will come back to this.
The Churches teaches abstaining from alcohol period. All SDA teaches that. you profess this before your baptized in front of the entire church. Caffeine too, thats is why its frown upon to eat chocolate, but the "church" is liberal now and so the people, but who are we following? is Gods standards changed? no they have not.
Honestly, I don't think when I talk, I talk about what the Church practices. I did learn from abstaining from SDA but I did my own research and I posted those scriptures. What I have to say means nothing. It is what God says and so the Church means nothing we stand on the principles of God and that is who we have to give an account, not to the Church. So again I am lost.
I also will be sending you a pm.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
OK, now you are creating your own interpretation.
Please explain?
Calling Him a drunkard or winebibber is pretty direct. And both translations say he came drinking...
Luke 7:33-35 (King James Version)
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children.
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon. ’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! ’ Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”
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dicapr
Well-Known Member
blazingthru If your background is Catholic you probably are overlooking the alter in a SDA church. Most churches I attend have a simple wooden table in the front with an inscription and something resembling handles on the side. They usually have flowers or a runner on them. That is actually our alter. That is why people are invited to come down front-to where the alter is. We don't stress it but that is what it is. Our communion is placed on the alter and some churches leave the tithes and offerings on the alter. I have even seen members kneel before the alter during prayer. During the 90's alter calls were common at our church however they did become controversial when alter calls ended up being used for spiritual blackmail and putting people on the spot. So now people are invited to come up front, but us old school SDA still know that what is up front and where people are gathering is before the alter.
I wanted to clear up my statement on alcohol. The SDA church never changed their view on using alcohol. What they did address was the mounting evidence that new wine was fermented in some form. Even with that admission there is enough biblical evidence to make a strong argument against alcohol consumption. But as I said before, any church must be careful not to bend the truth to fit their understanding of the bible. We are to be sober minded and watching for the coming of the Lord. That is a lot easier to do when you are not intoxicated.
As for caffeine, that is a hot topic in our church. It boils down to whether the member believes EGW was speaking in absolutes or about abuse. There is also the fact that there are SDA who do not adhere to EGW's writings. And because unlike alcohol the bible is completely silent on caffeine it is up to our personal convictions to guide us in this area.
I wanted to clear up my statement on alcohol. The SDA church never changed their view on using alcohol. What they did address was the mounting evidence that new wine was fermented in some form. Even with that admission there is enough biblical evidence to make a strong argument against alcohol consumption. But as I said before, any church must be careful not to bend the truth to fit their understanding of the bible. We are to be sober minded and watching for the coming of the Lord. That is a lot easier to do when you are not intoxicated.
As for caffeine, that is a hot topic in our church. It boils down to whether the member believes EGW was speaking in absolutes or about abuse. There is also the fact that there are SDA who do not adhere to EGW's writings. And because unlike alcohol the bible is completely silent on caffeine it is up to our personal convictions to guide us in this area.
menina
Believing the book of Revelations
Jesus was accused of a few things that he didn't do. We can assume he drank wine, fermented at that, but it only says drinking.
Also does wine promote holiness? Being sober minded? Idk
No assumption for me. I only go by the Word, which says He was called a drunkard/winebibber because unlike John who didn't eat bread or drink wine, Jesus came doing both. He came both eating and drinking.
It's very plain. Paul says wine help infirmities so yes to a degree it can promote holiness. Drinking wine doesn't mean you're not sober minded. Paul said a little. There is no specification as to how much Jesus drank, however, no where do I read he got drunk. He was called a drunkard because He drank wine, for all I know he had a sip or two and that was it. I have no clue the quantity.
What I do know is that drinking excess wine is strongly cautioned against. Becoming addicted to wine is forbidden. Over indulgence is considered sin. I'm sorry I can't look up scripture right now but it is strongly cautioned against drinking too much.
But to say it is sin to drink at all is the same as saying married people are not to have sex because it is sin. Sex is only forbidden outside of marriage to the one you are having relations with. So as long as the man and woman are married it is both ordained and commanded.
My point is that like there are guidelines with sex, there are guidelines with drinking wine. And one of those is not to drink with the brother or sister who is against it because that is a stumbling block for them.
menina
Believing the book of Revelations
I hear you. Me and my mom have going back and forth about this for years, lol. I see both sides of the discussion. I just keep praying to have a conviction for myself.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
oh so now I understand. I didn't know the table was the altar. which it is not in the front of our church and hasn't been since I been a member, what I was referring to is a round place to sit that is in the front of most churches you come up during altar call and you kneel on the cushion. I have been to quite a few SDA churches and I did not see this in the church nor did I ever hear them call for this during prayer nor have I seen the table that you mention except during communion and even then its covered so you did clear that up for me. the other things you have mentioned. Ellen G White is not mention as often as other SDA churches, I don't know where she stands. This is from my own studies, we speak often about drinking wine and consuming caffeine and the wear and tear it does on the body. no one bashes anyone about their choices in this life. what they eat or drink. I don't think the bible is silent. There is a text that we apply to everything.
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
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blazingthru
Well-Known Member
You say you attended Mass, but were you catholic? Anybody can go to catholic school but not all students can take the eucharist. Not all students are enrolled in the catechism studies. I would assume that you didn't have a deep knowledge of why and how and if G-d approved? That might be one reason it seemed so wrong for you.
I never wanted to be Catholic, I went because my friend went, I found it extremely boring, I was a child. I went when my friend got married she was catholic again, boring boring boring. I was like why. But I liked everything else we did in those days the Nuns were all over the place. I put both my daughters in Catholic school, because I wanted them to get a good christian education. It was when I was helping my daughter do her homework and using the bible I realize the teachings were different. she got an F and we used the bible. I was floored and started looking closely at things, but whatever, I did not completely walk away until years later. I grew up in different churches. the last being non-denomination. The honest truth, it held no appeal for me at all. There was nothing interesting enough to keep me there, I hated all the statues, but when I was a child I believe they came alive and I like to dip my hands in the water. you use to do that as soon s you walked in. Don't know if they do that now. But the Priest was nice and so were the Nuns. When I was pregnant with my son the Nuns helped me finish school and get my life together. They even allowed me to live with them. So I have nothing bad to say about those people they were good and kind.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
Actually, all we need is the word, although at times we can get stuck on something here or there and want to look deeper into understanding the why of something. I have a clear understanding of what and why I believe what I believe, I believe that if God goes through the explanations of why of something then he is saying do not drink it. I don't think any further then that although I did in the beginning of my studies, Because its awkward to not drink around your friend at a social event, but then I never was really comfortable with it and so it was easy for me to let it go and not look back. But if he says to not drink it then I do not drink it. I think if we do we can easy fall into sin, but that is my opinion.
Tests show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss. After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typists were tested and their errors increased 40 percent. Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent. —Paul Harvey
What Is Alcohol?
Let’s begin with a definition. There are many forms of this compound called alcohol. However, there is no mistaking that all of them are classified as poisons—toxins to the human body. The alcohol found in beverages such as beer, wine, and brandy is ethanol (C2H5OH), a clear, highly flammable liquid that has a burning taste and a characteristic odor.
What happens when one consumes this type of alcohol? Well, death usually occurs if the concentration of ethanol in the bloodstream exceeds about five percent! But even for those who use it sparingly, immediate behavioral changes, impairment of vision and unconsciousness can occur at lower concentrations. That’s interesting, isn't it? That’s exactly the same effect that other illicit drugs such as heroin, and even marijuana, have on those who use those substances. I doubt there are any Christian churches that would ordain the use of these drugs in even a casual social setting—or even to “calm the nerves” before bedtime. Is there any reason that alcohol should not be included in this list of drugs to avoid?
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
The whole of Scripture is clearly and adamantly against the consumption of alcohol, but human nature will look upon any textual ambiguity as a “loophole” to justify drinking alcohol.
An example of this reasoning is the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine. “When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, ‘Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!’” (John 2:9, 10). Those who support the intake of alcohol suggest this must have been alcoholic wine—after all, it was a wedding, and every wedding has wine—right? But let’s pause to consider the implications. There were six pots for Jesus to fill, and each of those would hold 20 to 30 gallons. That’s up to 180 gallons of beverage!
Are we to believe that Jesus made 180 gallons of a destructive drug—enough to get every guest drunk and launch this new marriage with slurring lips and staggering feet? Indeed, He would have been acting against His own Word! (Habakkuk 2:15; Luke 12:46; Ephesians 5:18). If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine—and the governor of the feast complimented the groom on its pure quality. (John 2:4, 6, 10. See also Mark 1:24, 2 Samuel 16:10).
Whatever the Soul Longs For
There are additional passages of Scripture that at first glance might lead a person to think drinking a little fermented wine in moderation might be biblically condoned. In the next few sections, we will address some of the verses that are sometimes construed to condone fermented wine, when in fact they do nothing of the sort.
“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household” (Deuteronomy 14:26). The phrase “strong drink” is translated from the word shekar. A Shekar is condemned by Solomon as a “brawler” (Proverbs 20:1). And Isaiah pronounces a woe upon those who “run after strong drink(shekar)” (Isaiah 5:11). Strong drink was also prohibited from the priests (Leviticus 10:9–11) and Nazarites (Numbers 6:2–4; Judges 13:3–5). So how could God so clearly condemn the use of “strong drink” in one place in the Bible, and yet approve of it in another place? Like the word yayin (“wine”), shekar is a generic term that could refer to either an alcoholic beverage, as noted above, or to a sweet, unfermented drink as is indicated in Isaiah 24:9. Shekar is also defined by the The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia as: “Sweet Wine or Syrup. Shechar, luscious, saccharin drink or sweet syrup, especially sugar or honey of dates or of the palm-tree” or “Date or Palm Wine in its fresh and unfermented state.” In fact, “sugar” and “cider” are derivatives from shekar. Therefore, since shekar could mean either a sweet unfermented drink or an intoxicating drink, we must interpret the word according to the context of the verse. Would God encourage the use of tithe money to purchase a beverage that causes intoxication, health problems and diminishing of moral capacities? The only reasonable conclusion is that this verse is referring to the sweet palm-wine beverage in its fresh and unfermented state.
Even if one refuses to accept this translation of the word, keep in mind, the verse in Deuteronomy 14:26 never tells them it is okay to drink this beverage. Rather, it is addressing how they were to transport offerings to present to the Lord when traveling long distances. Moses was recommending they carry money with them rather than to haul the offerings of beasts, grain, and wine long distances. When they arrived they were to purchase whatever they needed for offerings. The animal sacrifices could be eaten but they were commanded to pour the drink offerings on the ground. “And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering” (Numbers 28:7).
An example of this reasoning is the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine. “When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, ‘Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!’” (John 2:9, 10). Those who support the intake of alcohol suggest this must have been alcoholic wine—after all, it was a wedding, and every wedding has wine—right? But let’s pause to consider the implications. There were six pots for Jesus to fill, and each of those would hold 20 to 30 gallons. That’s up to 180 gallons of beverage!
Are we to believe that Jesus made 180 gallons of a destructive drug—enough to get every guest drunk and launch this new marriage with slurring lips and staggering feet? Indeed, He would have been acting against His own Word! (Habakkuk 2:15; Luke 12:46; Ephesians 5:18). If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine—and the governor of the feast complimented the groom on its pure quality. (John 2:4, 6, 10. See also Mark 1:24, 2 Samuel 16:10).
Whatever the Soul Longs For
There are additional passages of Scripture that at first glance might lead a person to think drinking a little fermented wine in moderation might be biblically condoned. In the next few sections, we will address some of the verses that are sometimes construed to condone fermented wine, when in fact they do nothing of the sort.
“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household” (Deuteronomy 14:26). The phrase “strong drink” is translated from the word shekar. A Shekar is condemned by Solomon as a “brawler” (Proverbs 20:1). And Isaiah pronounces a woe upon those who “run after strong drink(shekar)” (Isaiah 5:11). Strong drink was also prohibited from the priests (Leviticus 10:9–11) and Nazarites (Numbers 6:2–4; Judges 13:3–5). So how could God so clearly condemn the use of “strong drink” in one place in the Bible, and yet approve of it in another place? Like the word yayin (“wine”), shekar is a generic term that could refer to either an alcoholic beverage, as noted above, or to a sweet, unfermented drink as is indicated in Isaiah 24:9. Shekar is also defined by the The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia as: “Sweet Wine or Syrup. Shechar, luscious, saccharin drink or sweet syrup, especially sugar or honey of dates or of the palm-tree” or “Date or Palm Wine in its fresh and unfermented state.” In fact, “sugar” and “cider” are derivatives from shekar. Therefore, since shekar could mean either a sweet unfermented drink or an intoxicating drink, we must interpret the word according to the context of the verse. Would God encourage the use of tithe money to purchase a beverage that causes intoxication, health problems and diminishing of moral capacities? The only reasonable conclusion is that this verse is referring to the sweet palm-wine beverage in its fresh and unfermented state.
Even if one refuses to accept this translation of the word, keep in mind, the verse in Deuteronomy 14:26 never tells them it is okay to drink this beverage. Rather, it is addressing how they were to transport offerings to present to the Lord when traveling long distances. Moses was recommending they carry money with them rather than to haul the offerings of beasts, grain, and wine long distances. When they arrived they were to purchase whatever they needed for offerings. The animal sacrifices could be eaten but they were commanded to pour the drink offerings on the ground. “And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering” (Numbers 28:7).
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
I need to think about this before I type it. I've already jacked up once today
I am not promoting SDA, That is my faith, I believe that the Seventh Day Adventist church has the right of it. The "churches" practice different things and don't always adhere to what was once their own biblical principles, so what, that has nothing to do with it. What we are to hold to is our OWN walk with the Lord. I Love my Church and my faith, but its my personal relationship with God is what will save me. Doesn't matter what church you belong too, well God says it does he says : “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues’ ” (Revelation 18:4).
in Bible prophecy. She, Her a Woman is a Church. please do not think this is the future this is now. Right now.
As Christian we are require to study out anything that we learn to measure it against Gods words. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God. So here, we know ALL scripture was given by the inspiration of God. We can believe and trust in the scriptures as God's Holy word. even if we don't like it.
Psalm 119:105 thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And a light unto my path. So if we study it we won't walk in darkness and confusion. you consistently continue to learn more and more truths as you accept what your studying. Its honestly true as you start to believe and act, God reveals more bible truths to you.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The bible should be all Christian standards and nothing else. Those other things causes us to not really understand what it all means nor to have a close relationship with God. He becomes part of a ritual and no close and true friend. People are always offended if you say something that might make them think about what they are doing or you say something they do not like or anything that questions their beliefs. But I do not. I want to learn and understand so the next time that same question comes up I know what I have studied. case in point, the issue with the Altar hey I learned something. I was not wrong in what I said but there was a time before, there was an altar howbeit, not the same as I have ever seen in my life.
Your also right, most Christians only want the scriptures and that is me. I like a good christian novel and I like things to expound on what I feel might be difficult for me to understand, but I am not really interested in what someone else is teaching separate from the word of God. Especially, not traditions and stories passed down. It does me no good in my walk.
I also would not be very good in helping someone else come to Christ.
This is how I spent my entire teenage and early adult years. Scared out of my mind from some traditions and false believes. Well actually up to five years ago. I will not bring them up here, because some of these folk refuse to believe anything, these same folks are talking about the exact same thing we already rehashed again and again. all the information was provided for study and yet they ask the same question again. they are Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth2 Timothy 3:7.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
This is where I take offense. There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice. He encouraged others to drink WINE. Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness. That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.
People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures? Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't." Why is that??? You know G-d and no one else does? Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes. That's fine. But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.
Here I explain my feelings you read more into it then I intended. We serve the Lord doesn't mean no one else does, an any case, If God says wine is a mocker thats it. Leave it alone. But if you choose to drink it then that is your choice, we all have free will.
Galadriel
Well-Known Member
Eh???.........
MrsHaseeb
Well-Known Member
Lol Galadriel. Scripture actually makes it very plain that it was indeed fermented wine.... But that's neither here nor there. I don't see where the Bible says drinking wine or eating caffeine damns a person to Hell. But hey, it is what it is.
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Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
Chile.....
JaneBond007
New Member
Maybe, but it seems like....because of....
Eh, it's talking about intoxication. That's different from taking wine. And people don't realize that a shot of 32. oz. Pepsi and several donuts also intoxicate the body, in various other ways. Fatty steak? The bible warns against over indulgence for everything.
Eh, well, that was the clencher.
erplexed I know what you are saying, though.Jesus was an obedient Jew. People hardly ever get that. Just because he told his disciples to pick and eat wheat on Shabbat doesn't mean He regularly disregarded Shabbat. He demonstrated that as Creator, He was the L-rd of Shabbat. The kiddusha is made over wine, always has been. Shrugs.
That honestly made me laugh out loud. It can be if you don't know what is going on.
I'm glad they helped you. They were being Christ to you.To the red-bolded, no, not tht most christians only want, that many denominations only HAVE the scriptures and do not follow the apostolic tradition. It is what it is.
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CoilyFields
Well-Known Member
Not a heaven or hell issue...thank God!
But I think we can all agree that refraining from drunkeness is DEFINATELY prohibited. Everything else (to me) falls under cultural and individual preference and limits.
But I do caution us to remain apart from the world. Sitting at a bar with a beer isnt a good look for a Christian (in America). It will affect our witness to others. We must be careful of what we present to the world and to new CHristians who may not understand or be weak in their faith. But this goes for a lot of things that may not be sins in and of themselves.
If its wrong to you...please dont do it. If its wrong to your sister...please dont do it around her.
Oh and as for me...I absolutely HATE the taste of alcohol. Even the smell is gross to me. I'ev only had one kind of champagne that I found pleasant. My first taste of alcohol was in church lol. In undergrad when I was too tired to walk to the church I usually went to, I would go to the one on campus. It was presbetyrian I think. Well it happened to be communion sunday and i went up. Imagine my surprise when I dont taste welches grape juice in the cup!!! lol.
But I think we can all agree that refraining from drunkeness is DEFINATELY prohibited. Everything else (to me) falls under cultural and individual preference and limits.
But I do caution us to remain apart from the world. Sitting at a bar with a beer isnt a good look for a Christian (in America). It will affect our witness to others. We must be careful of what we present to the world and to new CHristians who may not understand or be weak in their faith. But this goes for a lot of things that may not be sins in and of themselves.
If its wrong to you...please dont do it. If its wrong to your sister...please dont do it around her.
Oh and as for me...I absolutely HATE the taste of alcohol. Even the smell is gross to me. I'ev only had one kind of champagne that I found pleasant. My first taste of alcohol was in church lol. In undergrad when I was too tired to walk to the church I usually went to, I would go to the one on campus. It was presbetyrian I think. Well it happened to be communion sunday and i went up. Imagine my surprise when I dont taste welches grape juice in the cup!!! lol.
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
love the bolded, thanks! totally agree.
divya
Well-Known Member
The issue of wine is one that has been long debated within Christianity. I believe that the Scriptures make a distinction between fermented and unfermented, with the latter being unacceptable to the Lord. However, I do understand that people differ on the matter. It really shouldn't be an issue to bring up the discussion regardless of where one stands on the matter. It is good to explore these issues so that we can all make a decision for ourselves and walk according to our conviction.
Wait, that is not accurate at all.
The SDA movement has long explained the difference between what is referred to as fermented and unfermented wine. It has long acknowledged that both types of wine were consumed in Biblical times, and thus the counsel against the latter. Additionally, not because she is newer in the SDA faith does that mean that she doesn't know or understand the doctrines and the Scriptures upon which such beliefs are based.
The fundamental beliefs of the movement include the following:
22. Christian Behavior:
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. [(Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)
Now people do disagree on the matter within the church but the above represents the official position of the church.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/
Wait, that is not accurate at all.
The SDA movement has long explained the difference between what is referred to as fermented and unfermented wine. It has long acknowledged that both types of wine were consumed in Biblical times, and thus the counsel against the latter. Additionally, not because she is newer in the SDA faith does that mean that she doesn't know or understand the doctrines and the Scriptures upon which such beliefs are based.
The fundamental beliefs of the movement include the following:
22. Christian Behavior:
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. [(Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)
Now people do disagree on the matter within the church but the above represents the official position of the church.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/
blazingthru
Well-Known Member
JaneBond007, Only the Pharisee saw Jesus as breaking the Sabbath, he is Lord of the Sabbath it is his creation, he could not break it, in any case, the pharisees created more then 100 laws for the Sabbath. When on the Sabbath we are not to work, not to cook, not to buy or sale, not to do our own pleasure. nor have anyone else do these things for us, nor those who live in our households.
Isaiah 58:13-14
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13 If you turn away your foot from [traveling unduly on] the Sabbath, from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a [spiritual] delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and honor Him and it, not going your own way or seeking or finding your own pleasure or speaking with your own [idle] words,
14 Then will you delight yourself in the Lord, and I will make you to ride on the high places of the earth, and I will feed you with the heritage [promised for you] of Jacob your father; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.
The Pharisee's made Sabbath a burden, because they were afraid to go into captivity again. Not realizing that it was suppose to be a heart change. It is still very important and very relevant, but folks really should be looking at who changed the date! Daniel 7:25. The day was changed and God did not authorized it.
You know people have no problem with the commandments only the Sabbath. What Jesus did was magnify the Law. He didn't change the Law he magnified it. So when you say Jesus was an Obedient Jew are you speaking from your Jewish side or the Catholic, The Jewish side doesn't believe he was the son of God right?
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