Wine

[Shimmie]

I definitely am not a regular drinker So I attend stuff all the time and don't drink.

I wouldn't say it's an enjoyable thing because I don't see it as an activity or a hobby. It's more an appreciation for the wine making process and the end results of lots of effort and planning.

It doesn't make me feel any particular way because I'm not drinking to excess.

If it was considered a sin by the Church or if there was any actual Biblical basis, no, I wouldn't drink.

I agree--in college I've seen people who drink to excess. I think there is a wide chasm between those who go out with the purpose of getting drunk and those who enjoy wine simply because they enjoy wine.

Lady Belle.... I missed your post. I'm sorry.

I just want you to know that you are still "Lady Belle", a lady of finesse and class and God's heart. No matter what my concerns, feelings are regarding drinking, please do not ever forget that.

No matter how hard I may 'hit the subject of drinking, be it now or some time later in a future post or thread, please do not ever forget the value that I place upon you, as a person, as a Christian, as my sister in Christ Jesus.

Nothing discussed in this forum trumps the value that you, Galadriel, blazingthru, ktykaty, and JaneBond007 are to me. Trust me, it's the subject of drinking and only that.

Knowing that you drink, doesn't change my view of you as highly valued and respected. Knowing how strongly blazingthru feels against drinking doesn't change the value that I have for her.

I just 'question' alcohol and see it as an 'enemy' rather than a safe harbor.

Sister to Sister.... May I just speak my heart on this?

I don't like alcohol. I don't like what I've seen it do to people. There is indeed a 'spirit' behind it. You see the changes within minutes after one takes a drink and then it increases in a difference of behavior.

I'm taking 'Wine' out of the picture for now. I'm learning that more and more Christian friends of mine (and family) drink wine. I simply don't encourage it. And this is where I'm leaving wine.

It doesn't sit well with me to see the following:

Christians taking shots (let alone, anyone for that matter). Don Julio is not Godly.

Christians and hard liquor. It changes their character drastically.

Christians drinking beer. Just being around the smell of beer makes me nauseous.

I'm a naturalist and a Christian, and I'm learning to guard what goes into my body, but even more my 'witness' as a Christian when it comes to drinking.

Thank you for letting me share this.

To each of you...

 

[dicapr]

Oh I believe that it is a sin to drink wine. God said to not even look at it. Why would he say that, if he doesn't mind. Obviously he does mind. He warns us over and over that it is a danger. Also its a form of suicide by degrees. So is a myriad of other things. that we do and think is acceptable. Any substance or unhealthful practice that damages the body or shortens one's life must be laid aside. Suicide by degrees is still suicide. This, of course, includes harmful drugs (such as tobacco in all of its forms) and the many drinks that contain a popular yet highly detrimental drug called caffeine. God says that He will destroy people who knowingly wreak havoc upon their body temples.

In saying, I gave up chocolate but I am struggling with it. Its not easy.

You don't need to give up chocolate! The amount of caffeine contained in chocolate is negligible. You would need to literally eat a truckload of candy to equal a cup of coffee. You are SDA? If you would like to pm me and discuss the health message in a more private setting that would be great. SDA born and raised but I am much more liberal on the caffeine and alcohol message after doing my own research. The SDA church I attend now is also more liberal with the health message . It seems the health message you adhere to is the one that was taught in my youth.

 

[blazingthru]

You don't need to give up chocolate! The amount of caffeine contained in chocolate is negligible. You would need to literally eat a truckload of candy to equal a cup of coffee. You are SDA? If you would like to pm me and discuss the health message in a more private setting that would be great. SDA born and raised but I am much more liberal on the caffeine and alcohol message after doing my own research. The SDA church I attend now is also more liberal with the health message . It seems the health message you adhere to is the one that was taught in my youth.

Yes I am SDA, but my church doesn't practice this, My church is more liberal as well, there is chocolate in the church, not often but there nonetheless, I have been over some members house where some serve beer. So I know its our own personal walk and I was listening to a message and pastor Byron Spears spoke against chocolate and so I took note of it and decided to do the research, he doesn't focus on the caffeine he focuses on the theobromine.

The first signs of theobromine poisoning are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and increased urination. These can progress to cardiac arrhythmias, epileptic seizures, internal bleeding, heart attacks, and eventually death.

Chocolate is believed to cause heartburn because of one of its constituents, theobromine, relaxes the oesophageal sphincter muscle, hence permitting stomach acidic contents to enter into the oesophagus.

My last child did a number on my body. I have Gerds, and a Hiatial hernia and many other stomach issues. So when I consume chocolate it makes me sick, but its not often enough for me to avoid. Well what I mean to say is if I eat a brownie and nothing else I am good but If I eat another piece and have a hot drink or any drink later, I get sick. Or even that one piece with nothing on occasions I'll get the runs (sorry to much info) I never know what reaction I am going to get. So it was hard for me to pinpoint what made me sick.

Anyway, After looking up Theobromine, I decided it was not healthy to consume and to just leave it alone.

Also the more I study the more I agree with some of the older teachings but its a struggle. Because Spears points out the reason with scripture so its hard to reason with what he says compared to the scripture. I personally don't feel I can argue safely against it since, I chose to be Scripture and Scripture only. This is my walk. I been ill for a long time and slowly getting better, by eliminating certain foods from my diet i can see a healing where for years there was none.

 

[blazingthru]

It's not a matter of "getting away" with anything. Drinking wine is not sinful or morally wrong. There are people who abuse alcohol and those who don't. The abuse is what's sinful.

It's like saying sex is sinful because so many people fornicate or practice sexual perversion, and therefore we should completely abstain from sex. Sex isn't the problem, it's the abuse of it.

Well, How can you avoid abusing Alcohol? Some folks as I said can have a drink and not form any attachment at all. Some folks that one drink will cause them to spiral out of control.

Cocaine, I have personal friends, three who tried it one time and or now dependent on services from the state and other avenues because the chemical mixture created an imbalance in their lives, they will never be the same again. Just once, they weren't even addicted to it. it only took one time. isn't that what they say about Crack just once and your hooked. well I really don't know.

So forgive me but I can't remember where this scripture is but Paul says he would never eat meat again. if it causes someone else to stumble, (I am paraphrasing). As Christians, that should be our motto, Drinking wine, might not have an affect on you but others new Christian may find that horrifying and turn from God. How can you then go on from there. Most folks think its about them, but its not. Someone is always watching to see if you live the life you claim and so we are to be a light to this dark world. I am not perfect by no means, I am learning and growing in Christ as well. I like Wine glasses on the table, they are filled with Cider of course, but I like the look of it and that might be a problem for someone else looking in on our celebratory meals. Since its only a few times a year I have them on the table. I have been considering that.

Oh and this can never compare to sex. Sex is for marriage period. The marriage bed will be judged as well. Anything else is outright sin.

 

[dicapr]

Yes I am SDA, but my church doesn't practice this, My church is more liberal as well, there is chocolate in the church, not often but there nonetheless, I have been over some members house where some serve beer. So I know its our own personal walk and I was listening to a message and pastor Byron Spears spoke against chocolate and so I took note of it and decided to do the research, he doesn't focus on the caffeine he focuses on the theobromine.

The first signs of theobromine poisoning are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and increased urination. These can progress to cardiac arrhythmias, epileptic seizures, internal bleeding, heart attacks, and eventually death.

Chocolate is believed to cause heartburn because of one of its constituents, theobromine, relaxes the oesophageal sphincter muscle, hence permitting stomach acidic contents to enter into the oesophagus.

My last child did a number on my body. I have Gerds, and a Hiatial hernia and many other stomach issues. So when I consume chocolate it makes me sick, but its not often enough for me to avoid. Well what I mean to say is if I eat a brownie and nothing else I am good but If I eat another piece and have a hot drink or any drink later, I get sick. Or even that one piece with nothing on occasions I'll get the runs (sorry to much info) I never know what reaction I am going to get. So it was hard for me to pinpoint what made me sick.

Anyway, After looking up Theobromine, I decided it was not healthy to consume and to just leave it alone.

Also the more I study the more I agree with some of the older teachings but its a struggle. Because Spears points out the reason with scripture so its hard to reason with what he says compared to the scripture. I personally don't feel I can argue safely against it since, I chose to be Scripture and Scripture only. This is my walk. I been ill for a long time and slowly getting better, by eliminating certain foods from my diet i can see a healing where for years there was none.

Ok. So this is from your own research and not necessarily in line with current SDA teachings. I can understand having to do what is right by your body and health. Everyone is different. For me, they would have to pry chocolate out of my cold dead hands! I love the stuff.

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel, as always your answers are 'classic', just like you are.

Thank you for answering. I have other questions as it does lie on my heart about Christians and drinking. I hope you are here to share more answers.

You and Hubby having a romantic dinner and a glass of wine... sounds 'Classic'.

Thanks, Shimmie

Here are two other things (outside of what you've shared) that I have on my heart.

New Christians who have lived it up, drinking, partying, more drinking. If they think it's okay to continue drinking, how will they truly be delivered?

I think the key thing such a person should ask themselves is: "How have I been treating alcohol and behaving with it in the past that has caused me to stumble?" "How can I avoid this?" For some, the answer will be to completely abstain; for others, it would be to only have a drink at a family Christmas party as opposed to guzzling down drinks at a frat party. Environment, behavior, and knowing and respecting your personal limits play important factors.

If I had abused alcohol in the past or have gotten drunk at parties, my approach to whether or not (or how often) I drink would be adjusted accordingly. Since I have never suffered from this issue, and I only drink on certain occasions, my approach is different from someone who used to get wasted at college dorm parties.

Happy Hour... Should Christians participate? We are to be in this world but not of it. We are to be 'separate' from the world. To see Christians in the same arena, participating in the same activity, where is our 'witness'.

It depends. I would take into consideration the people present and the environment and behavior that is going on.

Remember, Jesus drank wine, and He turned water into wine at a wedding (His first recorded miracle in the Gospels, if I'm not mistaken). Drinking wine isn't evil, but abusing it or acting recklessly with it is what's bad. If a person has a problem with alcoholism or knows he can't be responsible with drinking, then I would agree it's a good choice to abstain . Even a person who doesn't have a problem in this arena, if he's in an environment that is just crazy w/ people drinking and getting drunk (like a frat party, etc.), I think it would be a good idea to skip drinking in that environment altogether. As JaneBond007 said, we need to use common sense and the discernment given to us.

 

[JaneBond007]

I would not agree with this at all, the fact is this you might be able to get away with one drink but the next person could get addicted to it. it starts with one drink. So as Christians why would we, fully knowing the path the others have taken and its destruction, engage in it at all.

As for me and my house we serve the Lord, so for me when I read the dangers of drinking from the word that is it for me. Since I choose to walk on the side that is going to keep me focus and on track. I will abstain, we all have free will to make our own choices, but fully knowing what the end results for so many, I don't see how a "christian" can drink calmly. But that is my opinion not an opinion from the word.

This is where I take offense. There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice. He encouraged others to drink WINE. Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness. That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.

People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures? Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't." Why is that??? You know G-d and no one else does? Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes. That's fine. But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.

 

[JaneBond007]

Sister to Sister.... May I just speak my heart on this?

I don't like alcohol. I don't like what I've seen it do to people. There is indeed a 'spirit' behind it. You see the changes within minutes after one takes a drink and then it increases in a difference of behavior.

Eh, nah. No change unless one has consumed a lot. And even if someone is more relaxed, that doesn't constitute intoxication/drunkenness. You have a mind against it. I don't. There are no demons in me, sorry.

 

[JaneBond007]

So forgive me but I can't remember where this scripture is but Paul says he would never eat meat again. if it causes someone else to stumble, (I am paraphrasing). As Christians, that should be our motto, Drinking wine, might not have an affect on you but others new Christian may find that horrifying and turn from God. How can you then go on from there. Most folks think its about them, but its not. Someone is always watching to see if you live the life you claim and so we are to be a light to this dark world. I am not perfect by no means, I am learning and growing in Christ as well. I like Wine glasses on the table, they are filled with Cider of course, but I like the look of it and that might be a problem for someone else looking in on our celebratory meals. Since its only a few times a year I have them on the table. I have been considering that.

Oh and this can never compare to sex. Sex is for marriage period. The marriage bed will be judged as well. Anything else is outright sin.

I'm so sorry I've written 3x in a row, but I back-edit enough on these postings. Well, @blazingthru, never compare to sex, but what about food? Or spending? The list continues. You like the look of wine glasses? But why give the appearance of "sin?" I decided long ago (and this is just me, folks) that I didn't give a rat's beehaynd about what other people thought of me regarding religious conviction. It makes for a happier and more peaceful me. I'm not discounting scripture, but there is a level where you turn off individually or you succumb to irrational fears about everything, ya know? I figure, I'm not their redeemer at all. There's a big diff. between someone who is totally anti-G-d in their living and people who diff. from you individually, denominationally or exhibit human weakness, as though none others do. People all up in your business rather than their own are the weakest, imho. They're so busy following you around, looking into whatever you do, say, think you think, they largely overlook their nasty dispositions and a whole host of other nasty habits. Hypocrites of plank vs. splinter.

Now, I do look at christians a lot...and in this part of the discussion, I am looking at "them" from outside but there is a reason for that. I judge whole groups for the biggies...like murder, prejudice, whole "christian" countries turning a back on rights, ya know, the bigger infractions. But if somebody is going to judge me on a drink or even crossing the line and getting a bit tipsy, or at my having worn something too short, or having the wrong attitude about something etc., you know what? Kick, rocks x10 for them. My relationship with G-d is much bigger than worrying about that and is PERSONAL. It's called "hypocrite." But there is a definite limit to calling someone on being a true hypocrite. Our witness is important but I'm not going to be a religious slave to anybody. You have to live a freer life, imho. You cannot sweat every little thing. Life was meant to be enjoyed rather than walking on eggshells all day long.

 

[Shimmie]

Thanks, Shimmie



I think the key thing such a person should ask themselves is: "How have I been treating alcohol and behaving with it in the past that has caused me to stumble?" "How can I avoid this?" For some, the answer will be to completely abstain; for others, it would be to only have a drink at a family Christmas party as opposed to guzzling down drinks at a frat party. Environment, behavior, and knowing and respecting your personal limits play important factors.

If I had abused alcohol in the past or have gotten drunk at parties, my approach to whether or not (or how often) I drink would be adjusted accordingly. Since I have never suffered from this issue, and I only drink on certain occasions, my approach is different from someone who used to get wasted at college dorm parties.



It depends. I would take into consideration the people present and the environment and behavior that is going on.

Remember, Jesus drank wine, and He turned water into wine at a wedding (His first recorded miracle in the Gospels, if I'm not mistaken). Drinking wine isn't evil, but abusing it or acting recklessly with it is what's bad. If a person has a problem with alcoholism or knows he can't be responsible with drinking, then I would agree it's a good choice to abstain . Even a person who doesn't have a problem in this arena, if he's in an environment that is just crazy w/ people drinking and getting drunk (like a frat party, etc.), I think it would be a good idea to skip drinking in that environment altogether. As JaneBond007 said, we need to use common sense and the discernment given to us.

Thanks Galadriel... All the best to you Hubby and family.

Thanks blazingthru for your thread. It gave me an opportunity to share my heart and to receive some wonderful feedback. And all without contention, which was never my intent with this important topic. All the best to you and your precious family.

Lady Belle... you too, Angel

Jane Bond, to you as well and your precious children.

and to dicapr, you and your loved ones as well. It was really nice for you come in and support Blazingthru, to encourage her with the faith that you both share.

And to menina ... you too, Angel You shared a good question regarding the non-al wines, etc. I'm in love with Perrier'

 

[dicapr]

This is where I take offense. There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice. He encouraged others to drink WINE. Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness. That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.

People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures? Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't." Why is that??? You know G-d and no one else does? Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes. That's fine. But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.

I completely agree with you. That has always been my issue with how some choose to express their convictions. Just because you have what you believe to be a deeper understanding of God's word doesn't mean that someone who doesn't agree with your conviction is lacking in their relationship with the Father. I'm sure that our obedience to what God has revealed to us is the key, not that we all adhere to each and every Christian's personal convictions.

 

[menina]

What exact scripture says Jesus drank wine?

 

[Shimmie]

What exact scripture says Jesus drank wine?

menina... Here are the two that many indicate that Jesus drank wine.

Luke 7:33-34

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

and

Matthew 26:26-29

New International Version (NIV)

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

********

In Bible College, we were also taught to consider one of the reasons for drinking wine during that time was also due to the poor water conditions.

 

[JaneBond007]

I completely agree with you. That has always been my issue with how some choose to express their convictions. Just because you have what you believe to be a deeper understanding of God's word doesn't mean that someone who doesn't agree with your conviction is lacking in their relationship with the Father. I'm sure that our obedience to what God has revealed to us is the key, not that we all adhere to each and every Christian's personal convictions.

Yes, to Shimmie 's post on Matthew. It is communion and the blessing is/was made over wine.


dicapr
And that is very important to us catholics because we do not operate by personal revelation of scripture but that which is communal, handed down by the Magisterium. If someone has a personal revelation, they should state it as such amongst us. Individuals might not agree with something but we all have the same teaching.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Also, when Jesus was on the cross, he said "I thirst" and wine on a sponge was pressed to His lips. (Although I have read that He wasn't referring to a physical thirst but rather a thirst for us, for us to return His love )

 

[JaneBond007]

Belle Du Jour Follow on over to the RCC...I have an article to post. I actually know the man and he's a brilliant scholar. That 4th cup of wine is put into perspective.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Knowing that you drink, doesn't change my view of you as highly valued and respected. Knowing how strongly blazingthru feels against drinking doesn't change the value that I have for her.

I just 'question' alcohol and see it as an 'enemy' rather than a safe harbor.

Sister to Sister.... May I just speak my heart on this?

I don't like alcohol. I don't like what I've seen it do to people. There is indeed a 'spirit' behind it. You see the changes within minutes after one takes a drink and then it increases in a difference of behavior.

I'm taking 'Wine' out of the picture for now. I'm learning that more and more Christian friends of mine (and family) drink wine. I simply don't encourage it. And this is where I'm leaving wine.

It doesn't sit well with me to see the following:

Christians taking shots (let alone, anyone for that matter). Don Julio is not Godly.

Christians and hard liquor. It changes their character drastically.

Christians drinking beer. Just being around the smell of beer makes me nauseous.

I'm a naturalist and a Christian, and I'm learning to guard what goes into my body, but even more my 'witness' as a Christian when it comes to drinking.

Thank you for letting me share this.

To each of you...

I definitely hear you but I can only speak for myself: I've never been drunk or hung over so one drink doesn't change my behavior. I don't do shots or drink hard liquor. I don't like beer either

 

[Shimmie]

I definitely hear you but I can only speak for myself: I've never been drunk or hung over so one drink doesn't change my behavior. I don't do shots or drink hard liquor. I don't like beer either

Thanks Lady Belle...

 

[blazingthru]

This is where I take offense. There are scriptures demonstrating that Jesus drank wine....WINE, not grapejuice. He encouraged others to drink WINE. Now, as has clearly been displayed, those scriptures you posted and even agreed with are speaking on drunkenness. That is not equated with drinking wine, it's equated with drinking too much wine to become intoxicated.

People should say, "oh, my understanding is XYZ and what about ABC scriptures? Because my church encourages MNO" and never these pot shots of "well, I follow the L-rd and you don't." Why is that??? You know G-d and no one else does? Granted, some christians hate liquor, wine, dancing and cigarettes. That's fine. But when you cross the line to tell another person they are g-dless because they don't view it the way you do...uh, well.

There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it. I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it. If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services. If I was you, I would be thinking about it. Calling it into question. Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, this is what I did. When I walked into an SDA Church I wanted to know everything. Why they did what they did. I needed to know the truth of it all and if I didn't agree with it. I didn't do it. For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew.

I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that. Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. Because Jesus is the word made flesh, why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it, that is false. So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really. The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period. He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of. We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us. Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed. There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there. Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way. Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together. Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

And let's not forget Melchizidek, the priest and king of Salem who prefigured Christ way back in Genesis, presented a sacrifice of bread and wine.

Gen 14:18-20
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
He gave him a tenth of all.

Now, can anyone prove to me this was non-fermented wine?

 

[blazingthru]

I'm so sorry I've written 3x in a row, but I back-edit enough on these postings. Well, @blazingthru, never compare to sex, but what about food? Or spending? The list continues. You like the look of wine glasses? But why give the appearance of "sin?" I decided long ago (and this is just me, folks) that I didn't give a rat's beehaynd about what other people thought of me regarding religious conviction. It makes for a happier and more peaceful me. I'm not discounting scripture, but there is a level where you turn off individually or you succumb to irrational fears about everything, ya know? I figure, I'm not their redeemer at all. There's a big diff. between someone who is totally anti-G-d in their living and people who diff. from you individually, denominationally or exhibit human weakness, as though none others do. People all up in your business rather than their own are the weakest, imho. They're so busy following you around, looking into whatever you do, say, think you think, they largely overlook their nasty dispositions and a whole host of other nasty habits. Hypocrites of plank vs. splinter.

Now, I do look at christians a lot...and in this part of the discussion, I am looking at "them" from outside but there is a reason for that. I judge whole groups for the biggies...like murder, prejudice, whole "christian" countries turning a back on rights, ya know, the bigger infractions. But if somebody is going to judge me on a drink or even crossing the line and getting a bit tipsy, or at my having worn something too short, or having the wrong attitude about something etc., you know what? Kick, rocks x10 for them. My relationship with G-d is much bigger than worrying about that and is PERSONAL. It's called "hypocrite." But there is a definite limit to calling someone on being a true hypocrite. Our witness is important but I'm not going to be a religious slave to anybody. You have to live a freer life, imho. You cannot sweat every little thing. Life was meant to be enjoyed rather than walking on eggshells all day long.

Is a wine glass sin. The shape of the glass is it sinful? When I go out to breakfast my family and I received OJ in a wine glass. See i was looking at my table one day and I was thinking I wonder what folks would think if they saw my table set up this way with the glasses filled with Grape Juice or Cider. Does it give the appearance of Sin? This was my question. oh and I do care what others think. I am suppose to be a light that is my goal to be a light and to walk in what I believe and thereby creating a desire for others to want to walk in that light.

 

[blazingthru]

And let's not forget Melchizidek, the priest and king of Salem who prefigured Christ way back in Genesis, presented a sacrifice of bread and wine.

Gen 14:18-20
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
He gave him a tenth of all.

Now, can anyone prove to me this was non-fermented wine?

The Priest did not drink wine or strong drink. Melchizedek was a type of Christ he had no real beginning and no real end, But he was to remain a priest forever. In knowing that he would remain a priest forever, we know that he was obedient and never went against the teachings of God and like Samson and others, God spoke directly to him his Laws.

Leviticus 10:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it. I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it. If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services. If I was you, I would be thinking about it. Calling it into question. Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, this is what I did. When I walked into an SDA Church I wanted to know everything. Why they did what they did. I needed to know the truth of it all and if I didn't agree with it. I didn't do it. For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew.

I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that. Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. BecauseJesus is the word made flesh, why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it, that is false. So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really. The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period. He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of. We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us. Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed. There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there. Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way. Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together. Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.

All I have to say is that the judging people in this post and your words does not give life to the reader. A word to the wise: When you are giving a teaching, you can't do it and slam people in the process. It's a nice/nasty that is so prevalent in this forum. That "Telling the truth in love" is getting old...

Just sayin....

I'm not responding back, just giving my opinion from what I am reading.

 

[dicapr]

There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it. I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it. If you feel that I was saying your Godless, well I don't know what to say. Your faith practices drinking wine, you do that in your services. If I was you, I would be thinking about it. Calling it into question. Does God really agree with this. (I went to Mass and I raised my girls in catholic school) This is not to assault or offend you, this is what I did. When I walked into an SDA Church I wanted to know everything. Why they did what they did. I needed to know the truth of it all and if I didn't agree with it. I didn't do it. For instance, most churches have an altar, SDA churches do not. but they do call everyone up to the front they do not say Altar but in my mind its the same thing. I do not like that. I can't find a bible reason for us to do it. Because it appears as if you get extra attention because you go to the altar when you do not. But I learned this because I searched for an answer and then I sent a emails to a bible scholar to show me where I can find the real answers that I was missing and he confirmed what I already knew.

I am not trying to offend anyone but people are going to get offended regardless honestly there is nothing that can be done about that. Jesus did not drink fermented Wine, no matter how much folks want to believe he did, so they can drink it, he never did. Not ever. Because Jesus is the word made flesh, why would he tell us to avoid it and then he drink it, that is false. So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really. The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period. He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of. We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us. Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed. There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there. Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way. Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together. Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.

I am also glad to see a fellow SDA on fire for the Lord. But I feel that I need to make a few corrections in some of the responses you have given in this thread are not an accurate account of SDA beliefs. First off we do have alters and alter calls in the SDA church. It has nothing to do with seeking attention and it has a biblical foundation. Also, the SDA church recently admitted that the wine drunk in biblical times was fermented. While there are many legitimate and biblical reasons that support a person's decision to abstain, we cannot re-write history because it supports our church views. I feel the need to point these things out because there are many here who are unfamiliar with SDA dogma and beliefs. And while your opinions are held by some in the church I want those reading this thread to also understand that some of your beliefs are personal and held by many in the denomination but are not the official position of our church. Lastly, I just wanted to state that agree with you on the fact that the bible should be our only guide. I hope that you continue to be blessed in you endeavor to draw close to God and be all that he would have you be. Be Blessed!

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I am also glad to see a fellow SDA on fire for the Lord. But I feel that I need to make a few corrections in some of the responses you have given in this thread are not an accurate account of SDA beliefs. First off we do have alters and alter calls in the SDA church. It has nothing to do with seeking attention and it has a biblical foundation. Also, the SDA church recently admitted that the wine drunk in biblical times was fermented. While there are many legitimate and biblical reasons that support a person's decision to abstain, we cannot re-write history because it supports our church views. I feel the need to point these things out because there are many here who are unfamiliar with SDA dogma and beliefs. And while your opinions are held by some in the church I want those reading this thread to also understand that some of your beliefs are personal and held by many in the denomination but are not the official position of our church. Lastly, I just wanted to state that agree with you on the fact that the bible should be our only guide. I hope that you continue to be blessed in you endeavor to draw close to God and be all that he would have you be. Be Blessed!

Although I knew this without you saying it, thank you for posting a more accurate SDA viewpoint.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

The Priest did not drink wine or strong drink. Melchizedek was a type of Christ he had no real beginning and no real end, But he was to remain a priest forever. In knowing that he would remain a priest forever, we know that he was obedient and never went against the teachings of God and like Samson and others, God spoke directly to him his Laws.
Leviticus 10:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

OK, now you are creating your own interpretation.

 

[JaneBond007]

blazingthru

I know where you are, I truly do. I was in such a situation once. It left me so scarred. I don't know how I got to where I am even. I think that what any of us who less troubled by wine want you to think is that His yoke is easy. I'm not pointing to sin, but that the legalism is sometimes too much. I, personally, don't want you to fear but to live, freely. When we follow Him, we live freely in His love. Granted, some things are not for some people and you have indicated absolute right points about why you should not drink. But please know, you are not the sole lover of Christ. I have been there...one day, I might explain it all in a post.

 

[Galadriel]

********

In Bible College, we were also taught to consider one of the reasons for drinking wine during that time was also due to the poor water conditions.

That's right. Even in the Middle Ages, people drank ale more than water because of water conditions.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

So many folks accept the false teachings of Jesus without question, yet you want to call him your friend, really. The bible tells the whole story. Jesus was lied on and betrayed and falsely accused. Period. He is not guilty of any of those things he was accused of. We know this because if he was then there is no hope for us. He would not have rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and plead to God for us. Because he would have failed his mission. He said it is finished, he has completed everything that the ones he had sent failed. There is One God, One Faith, and One Baptism. So we know that there are many, many faiths out there. Me personally, I want to follow the scriptures completely because it says one faith. The bible is our only standard, and we should all be on the same page, but as Christians we are not and the main reason why is folks want to do it their own way. Doesn't matter if this is what your churches teaches or not. The church is full of sinners and saints together. Can't follow them we have to follow Christ and thereby knowing and believing what the bible says is true.

See, that is a very tricky statement to make when your own denomination was established in the 19th century and high value is placed on the writings of Ellen White as well as the Bible. erplexed And I'm not trying to shade 7th Day Adventists. (At one point, I had a lot of friends and acquaintances who were SDA and even attended their serviced a couple times. Very lovely people.) What I don't like is the attitude of "I understand better than you." I'm sure I've been guilty of it too because I'm zealous about my faith, but we have to be careful not to put down other Christians in this way.

 

[Galadriel]

There are many who do what they want to and make every excuse under the sun to do it. I am the exact same way, but its a thought I wrestle with, then I let it go because I have decided that I will follow the Bible and not pick and chose what I will take out of it or leave in it.

You see, that's the problem--you are picking and choosing based on your denomination's particular interpretations and then condemning other Christians for not following SDA doctrine.

I understand and respect the position of a Christian who chooses to abstain from alcohol and even advocates it if she feels strongly about it. Shimmie doesn't like alcohol and has seen people abuse it or use it as a crutch--so she chooses to set an example by staying away from it in addition to her healthy eating/drinking regimen. I think that's great. However, going over to other Christians and telling them their lives and souls are in danger because they choose to drink wine (something that Our Lord Himself drank and even used as the occasion for His first miracle), is just plain wacky Biblical interpretation and Phariseeism.

Avoiding drunkenness and alcohol abuse is good--*all* Christians are bound do avoid these. However, like the Pharisees, you create a man-made hedge around it and proclaim that having a glass of wine is a sin--something not supported by Scripture and not even supported by Jesus Christ since He Himself drank wine.