Tithes...my own personal revelation & study…

[Renaylor]

Hi Renaylor!!
I feel like a broken record sometimes but your situation sounds similar to mine when I was married. My husband totally disapproved of me tithing or giving. He thought I was foolish. We are all learning and growing and still very much human but very much God's children too. I thank Netta1 for starting this discussion b/c we can all learn from each other here. I wanted to address some of your comments in hopes that you can learn something from my own personal experiences. Please do not ever think that I am arrogant or nosey. If we are looking at a pig, I'm gonna call it a pig. I am not going to call it a cow for purpose of being PC. I just don't have that in me. People get hurt when you aren't honest. There is a difference between hurt feelings(we can learn to get over those) and damaged souls (only God can mend). Ok, the word tells us in many places about borrowing being not a good thing for us. We live in a world where no one has patience and as a result credit looks really good- at the time. Our grandparents had less to work with but they bought homes, cars, sent kids to school, ate, etc all w/o having large amounts of debt. They knew how to wait and to save money.There is power and freedom in delayed gratification. They worked so hard to allow us to have the lifestyle we have. Borrowing money from a 401k is almost never a good idea unless someone's life is on the line. There are substantial penalties from the governmment. Plus if your husband loses or tries to leave his job, that money becomes due immediately! When we borrow money from relatives it changes the dynamics of the relationship. Turkey at Thanksgiving just doesn't taste the same you know? It can put all the wrong ppl in your business. Which can then cause stress on the marriage. It is just not good. Be that as it may, what's done is done. What is the game plan and timeline for paying these debts off (rhetorical)? I see you are trying to do a budget but it is not fair for one person to totally relinquish the budgeting to their spouse. It leaves room for lots of finger pointing. Plus a marriage is a partnership. One of the top 3 reasons for divorce in America are money problems. If one person is better at something than the other that's fine but both parties should have equal say and both parties need to be fully aware of where the money is going and what the plan is for accomplishing shared goals. In other words, you have a marriage issue that is masquerading as a money issue. Communication is vital in a successful marriage.
Asking for a payraise can be a good idea. You know your circumstances. If you do decide to ask for a raise, have your stuff together. You need to be able to clearly demonstrate your monetary value and all contributions past as well as how you can make them more money in the future. Powerpoint, flow charts, whatever it takes. Yes things are tough right now for some but, there is no recession in the kingdom. You gave God the praise for him letting you buy your home in your post. Can't he do a little something, something in this area too? Don't limit God. He can get you a raise or a new job or as many others have stated he finds ways to get you what you need. You may get a gas card w/ a large balance. You may get gift cards for the grocery store or something. Maybe it will be clothes for the kids. Think and say something good is going to happen to me! Where we tend to mess up is if he provides for us in that way we don't take the money we were going to use for 'x' and pay it towards debts. Instead we spend it. God gives all who ask for it wisdom. Pray and ask him for witty ideas and concepts. Maybe you can save your company $$ and be rewarded for it. Maybe you can start an online business. Have a yard sale. Can you cook, sew, speak, write well? These things can generate extra income too. There is nothing too hard for God. I've said all of this to say God is the one who can enlighten and change your husband's mind. There are two great 'prayers for your husbands' in this Christian forum. Search for them and begin to cover your DH. Your job is to look to the one who can change this and pray for your husband. Then comes the hard part- waiting. Ask God for grace to wait. Celebrate the little victories along the way. Write things down in a notebook. They will give you hope along the way. Here is a book I highly recommend you read. It is called the Total Money Make-over by Dave Ramsey. If you don't want to buy it check it out at the library. Here is a link to his website www.daveramsey.com. Start listening to his free show online. Also, for ideas on how to generate income check out www.48days.com. It is Dan Miller's website. He has a free podcast too. Both of these men are Christian counselors who have changed my life. Also check out Crown Financial Ministries at www.crown.org. When we take that first step of faith to begin the turn around process God supernaturally intervenes.

Prov 22:7-
7 The rich rule over the poor,
and the borrower is servant to the lender.

James 2:20-
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
Psa 121:1-2
1 I lift up my eyes to the hills—
where does my help come from?
2 My help comes from the LORD,
the Maker of heaven and earth.
Psa 23:1-
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Thank you for your response. The messed up thing about the whole situation is that the 401k was paid off by the sale of my apartment. Because I could not sell it by the close of 2008 and return the money to help him pay it off he got slapped with the taxes. The market was so bad we were lucky to sell at all. We were carrying 2 mortgages and a maintenance for a while but the Lord is good and we made it. As for borrowing money for relatives-I am against it but my husband always goes to this person and feels comfortable with it and pays them back right away. I can't tell him what to do with his relatives but I try to stay clear myself of borrowing from family. The wonderful thing is that in preparation for buying a house we are debt free and our car is paid off. We also carry one credit card balance and this my card for small purchases which I pay off in time each month. I have gotten rid of a lot of expenses, shopped for better cell phone plans and only shop when there are sales and stockpile items, coupon clip, and not spend what I don't have. I have cable but it is merged with internet/telephone and it keeps us from the movies. Our big problem was eating out and now it is done to once a month. I am familiar with Dave Ramsey and I watch his program all the time, I also am familar with Crown Ministries. In regards to my spouse assisting me with the finances I don't ask him too. When we met his finances were a shambles. Knowing this and watching his pay history I kept him out of it. I keep a working tally of all the bills and have money managment software to keep track. He has gotten better over the years but he is used to me doing it now so it has become my responsibility. However I do let him see the worksheet with the bills and expenses, but he just throws surprises on me and then expects me to fix it-which by the time he tells me I can't do. I have told him before if you tell me early I can help but if you wait to the last minute it is a no-go.
I am frustrated and I am going to pray hard for my spouse for him to come to an understanding and pray for a way to resolve this which only the Lord can give. I don't want to rob God of anything he has given me my life back when 2 years ago I had hit rock bottom. He renewed my spirit, moved my family and I to a better life, found us a church home with a awesome pastor and congregation.He deserves all the praise and glory

 

[Prudent1]

Hang in there Renaylor,
I'm going to tell you what my pastor would say. "Hang in there like a rusty fish hook". I'm praying for you and your situation. Sounds like you are doing the very best you can. Prayer is definitely the key. Don't forget to search the forum for those daily prayers for the husbands. Many of them address financial wisdom.

 

[Prudent1]

Hi NaturallyGraceful!!

I never quite understood the logic of giving out of your gross.
That's ok. I didn't either. From a logic standpoint tithing period makes no sense to me. I can only tell you that there are measurable, radical differences between how things were for me when I was applying my human logic to the issue of tithing and when I said, "Ok God, this makes no sense to me. I trust you. I'm giving this money to you. Please provide a way for my bills to be paid." I can't fully explain this b/c there are supernatural elements involved beyond our understanding. But, I do know how you feel.
So you give 10% each check & then at tax time you have to pay the government some back.
Actually, I have learned to adjust my withholding so that I'm not getting large income tax checks. See once I understood the government was making loads of interest off of my money and then giving me back a small part of the principle I was like no thanks. erplexed I don't need the government to hold that for me. I can use that money through the year and I am intelligent enough to let my money make money for me.
To me, you never "had" what those numbers on that check indicated in the first place.
Yes, you never had that in your possesion b/c the Feds took it before you could spend it. Yet in every other way we count that money. If you are applying for a loan do you list your gross as your salary or your net? If you are getting a raise does your boss list your gross amount as your income or your net? Scriptually, I don't see where there are exceptions for net vs gross. We are simply told to give the Feds what belongs to them. Jesus even paid his taxes but he went to temple with offerings and tithes.


I'm a faithful tither & have no problem giving 10%+ off the top of what's actually in my possession. Whenever I got an income tax check back, I always gave 10% of that too.
I just don't get it I guess.

God will still bless you b/c he loves you. You just need to know that there is a higher level you will not experience. I asked God why were slave owners who were prejudiced and cruel able to flourish from generation to generation financially. I had bitterness in my heart at the time about it. He exxplained this very thing to me. They were tithers and givers. It does not acquit them of all of their wrong doings but b/c tithing is a spiritual law it works for whoever. The levels vary but it works for whoever. He let me know he is righteous and I need not worry about them but about me and how I was handling my money.

Also, I remember Paula White teaching that Tithing & First Fruits were two different things.
They are. My pastor has actually been teaching on this in bible study lately. He hasn't finished yet. I am still learning everything myself...I'll have to ask some of the other ladies to step in here and teach us on that subject until I am more knowledgeable. I try not to say anything to y'all unless I can give scriptures or something tangible to validate.

And I know that some denominations believe that tithing is part of the old Law and that it's not required, but offerings are expected.
Anybody know about that too?

Just what was said earlier. The Old law was not negated by the Grace of the NT. The NT completed it. Jesus finshed/ restored all that was unobtainable under the law and now we have an advocate, a comforter, and have been adopted into the family. Offerings always have and always will be acceptable to God. I have gotten away from denominations and religious traditions that cannot be traced to a biblical root. Once again, that stuff is not going to condemn you to hell but I want the absolute truth period.
Mark12:17
17Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
And they were amazed at him.

 

[goldielocs]

Hello all,

Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.

When I started attending other churches, I didn't even consider tithing because I didn't grow up doing it. It wasn't an issue until I started helping out at church and someone mentioned it. When I said I didn't, I noticed I became a sort of outcast. Sad but true. At that point, I started researching what a tithe was and I've come to the conclusion it isn't nessesary. Here's why.

My first question was- What is a tithe? This is what I found...
Leviticus 27:30

A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

Another scripture that I found is in Deuteronomy 12:17. It reads...

You must be careful not to eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offering or special gifts. Instead you are to eat them in the presence of the Lord your God at the place the Lord your God will choose- you, your sons, your daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns- you are to rejoice before the Lord your God in everything you put your hand to. Be careful not to neglect the Levites as long as you live in your land.

So from that, I figured the tithe was food. So anyone who was a farmer of any sort had to give a tithe of what was produced. My next question was- Who did they give it to? The last scripture answers that as well as this one...

Numbers 18:21 reads-

I give to the Levites all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

Ok, so the tithes were food given to the tribe of Levi or Levites who were in charge of caring for the temple. Since Levites were not allowed to work or inherit, they needed to be supported. Then it makes sense that the tithe would be food to feed them.

Now, this left me wondering about that scripture in Malachi. After the questions in verses7 & 8, it says...

"In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse- the whole nation of you because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe to the storehouse, that there may be food in my house...

Ok, so here's the reference to food again... How did a tenth- and not the first tenth- of food turn into this rule that applies to a tenth of a person's income? The only reference I found that links tithing and money deals with those who had to travel a long distance and needed to bring money instead of food to the Levites at the temple. Also the curse referred to in this scripture deals with the curses laid out in Deuteronomy 28. From my understanding, those curses were fulfilled during the inter-testament time. That is the time between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT. I was told it was about 400 years. Don't quote me on that. I'm still studying.

When I discuss this with other's, I've always been told that there were 3 types of tithes and they are connected to the OT holy days, but from what I read, the tithes were all food which was to be eaten by Levites and the community during the feasts. They usually try to say that one of the tithes applies to everyone's incomes even if they weren't farmers. I haven't found that scripture.

Also, I was taught that Christ was our high priest, thus negating the need for "feeding" the Levitical priesthood. I can't find the scripture, but I know it's in the NT.

Maybe I'm too literal, but I have yet to make the connection that tithing equals money or that it even applies to us. Yes, churches and clergy need financial support. That's to be expected, but at what point did tithing food turn into tithing all income to all churches? I know the early believers collected an offering in Acts and that's completely acceptable, but I've always felt that if a tithe was collected then they would have mentioned that an offering and tithe was collected. I'm seriously not trying to be sarcastic. If God considered it important enough in the OT to talk about tithing as much as He did, wouldn't he do the same in the NT when He inspired scripture on giving?

My other issue is the limit of 10%. Everything I have already belongs to God. If someone needs something, I give it if I'm able. No questions asked. To God be the glory. This isn't limited to money. Time, services- whatever. I remember cleaning homes of older members when I was a child or running errands for a new mother. Another time, one of the members of our church needed surgery and didn't have enough to cover the cost. The church had a meeting, split the cost and paid for it at the end of the week. No checking financial records or attendance. Those experiences shape my concept of giving and after seeing the conflict tithing causes with some, I'm greatful I don't have that issue.

For a short while I was stressing myself out about not tithing and I came across this scripture in 2 Corinthians 9:7. It reads...

Each man should give what he has decided to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, For God loves a cheerful giver.

That's what I do with my giving. I honestly can't tell you what percent of my income it is because I don't calculate it. I also don't fill out those church envelopes. I don't want what I give to be known by anyone.

I'm not trying to change the direction of the thread at all. I tend to analyze things quite a bit, but I just wanted to add to the conversation. Be blessed.

 

[momi]

I have enjoyed this thread...

OT tithes were used prior to the days of taxing - it seems like many of the things tithes were expected to cover are now handled by the government. The NT example was people gave freely out of their own household so there was no lack. This method of givng more than likely exceeded the tenth, however it was more than just money...

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Netta1]

Hello all,
Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.

Thank you for your response, I enjoy history. I think when we look at tithing and what it meant we should also look at the biblical history. I too don't understand when the tithe became money (that was to be given to the church). I think that tithing that is done today may be completely different then the tithing that was done in OT. I wonder if the switch up had anything to do with the onset of the Catholic church...

hmmmm interesting..anyone know???

BTW

I have enjoyed everyones response...while I don't agree with everything..I understand that we all have our own convictions...

Thanks to all of you ladies for sharing your views/stories/wisdom and knowledge on the subject

 

[Renaylor]

Thanks for everyones response and prayers for me. I will continue to pray on this issue and I know God will find a way for me to make this right. God Bless.

 

[Poohbear]

@ Prudent1 and JinaRicci,

The thing is, this guy is NOT living above his means at all. He doesn't have credit card debt or anything.

His house payment does not exceed 1/4 of his income. He is renting a small home and pays less than $500 a month for it.

Child support takes the bulk of his paychecks.

The car he has is used and old, it still has a car payment, insurance, and gas expenses and he needs it to go transport to and from work and home. This guy used to ride a bus and he used to get rides from people to go places. I guess he could go back to doing that.

And his student loans for school used to be in deferrment but they will not allow him to do that anymore.

I know you can live without cable and even a phone, but come on now... here's the big question: Should one get rid of all that just so you can tithe to a church??? Cut out transportation and communication with other people just so you can tithe to a church???

Prudent1, I see where you said you lived without food... Food is something necessary for us to live. It's not healthy to go without food, and I do not think God would advise us to go without food just so you can give a tithe to a church.

Hi Poohbear ( I love that name ),
So in response to the guy friend. He needs to make some lifestyle changes. The necessities of life are Food, Shelter, and Utilities. That said cable as you stated does not qualify. He may need to sell the car and pay cash for a reliable used car. Cars. boats, etc should not exceed 1/2 of your annual income b/c these things drop too much in value and we usually end up upside down on them(owing more than they are worth). That will lower his insurance rate too probably. If he is not over when is the last time he shopped aroung for better insurance rates for his things? It doesn't sound like he was ready for home ownership. Your rent or mortgage payment should not exceed 1/4 of your take home pay. If it does you will struggle. Can he put his loans in forebearance? Can he reapply and change to graduated payments or income contingent payments with a solid plan to turn his finances around? In his current situation he has created a scenario where he is a bona-fide slave to so many entities.

I hear you- I really do & I am sympathetic to his situation. Cutting the cable was mentioned as an example of how he could reduce his monthly expenses. My point was there is room to trim those bills. I can't tell someone how to spend their $ but if I only had $100 to cover food & gas & incidentals for the month there is no way I would be spending more than half of that amount on cable.

This is a matter of principle. It's about being a good steward & living w/in one's means- Christian or not, tithing or not. There are needs and then there are wants. Transportation is a need and driving a certain make of car is a want. Not sure if this is the case here but too often we make decisions based on wants that affect our finances. When we're making those types of decisions, we're not good stewards and it's worse when we're using that as an excuse for not tithing. Yes-it's robbing God.

Good stewardship & tithing are just two examples of principles that God teaches in the Bible to set us up for success that as Christians we sometimes ignore yet non-Christians recognize their worth & practice them in their own lives. Financial success books & gurus will tell you it's not about how much you earn, it's about how much you spend. The other thing they will tell you is that tithing as a principle is the secret to leading a more abundant life. We might pay $$ for that type of advice and we already have it right there in the Bible.

So encourage your friend & pray with him on the subject. It will change his life.

 

[Poohbear]

goldielocs,

Beautifully stated response! These are the same conclusions, thoughts, and questions I have been having after reading these scriptures for myself, except we grew up differently... I was taught to tithe 10% off my gross income where you were taught not to give a tithe. I also have been wondering how food turned into money and why there is a 10% limit per se when everything belongs to God anyway. I often wonder if I'm being too literal as well.

Hello all,

Alright, let me preface this response with a little history. I do not tithe and I grew up in a church which did not promote tithing. All members paid yearly dues. Whenever there was someone in need or the church needed repairs, the deacons and members met, assessed the situation and people gave what was needed. Granted, it is a small church.

When I started attending other churches, I didn't even consider tithing because I didn't grow up doing it. It wasn't an issue until I started helping out at church and someone mentioned it. When I said I didn't, I noticed I became a sort of outcast. Sad but true. At that point, I started researching what a tithe was and I've come to the conclusion it isn't nessesary. Here's why.

My first question was- What is a tithe? This is what I found...
Leviticus 27:30

A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

Another scripture that I found is in Deuteronomy 12:17. It reads...

You must be careful not to eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offering or special gifts. Instead you are to eat them in the presence of the Lord your God at the place the Lord your God will choose- you, your sons, your daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns- you are to rejoice before the Lord your God in everything you put your hand to. Be careful not to neglect the Levites as long as you live in your land.

So from that, I figured the tithe was food. So anyone who was a farmer of any sort had to give a tithe of what was produced. My next question was- Who did they give it to? The last scripture answers that as well as this one...

Numbers 18:21 reads-

I give to the Levites all the tithes in Isreal as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

Ok, so the tithes were food given to the tribe of Levi or Levites who were in charge of caring for the temple. Since Levites were not allowed to work or inherit, they needed to be supported. Then it makes sense that the tithe would be food to feed them.

Now, this left me wondering about that scripture in Malachi. After the questions in verses7 & 8, it says...

"In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse- the whole nation of you because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe to the storehouse, that there may be food in my house...

Ok, so here's the reference to food again... How did a tenth- and not the first tenth- of food turn into this rule that applies to a tenth of a person's income? The only reference I found that links tithing and money deals with those who had to travel a long distance and needed to bring money instead of food to the Levites at the temple. Also the curse referred to in this scripture deals with the curses laid out in Deuteronomy 28. From my understanding, those curses were fulfilled during the inter-testament time. That is the time between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT. I was told it was about 400 years. Don't quote me on that. I'm still studying.

When I discuss this with other's, I've always been told that there were 3 types of tithes and they are connected to the OT holy days, but from what I read, the tithes were all food which was to be eaten by Levites and the community during the feasts. They usually try to say that one of the tithes applies to everyone's incomes even if they weren't farmers. I haven't found that scripture.

Also, I was taught that Christ was our high priest, thus negating the need for "feeding" the Levitical priesthood. I can't find the scripture, but I know it's in the NT.

Maybe I'm too literal, but I have yet to make the connection that tithing equals money or that it even applies to us. Yes, churches and clergy need financial support. That's to be expected, but at what point did tithing food turn into tithing all income to all churches? I know the early believers collected an offering in Acts and that's completely acceptable, but I've always felt that if a tithe was collected then they would have mentioned that an offering and tithe was collected. I'm seriously not trying to be sarcastic. If God considered it important enough in the OT to talk about tithing as much as He did, wouldn't he do the same in the NT when He inspired scripture on giving?

My other issue is the limit of 10%. Everything I have already belongs to God. If someone needs something, I give it if I'm able. No questions asked. To God be the glory. This isn't limited to money. Time, services- whatever. I remember cleaning homes of older members when I was a child or running errands for a new mother. Another time, one of the members of our church needed surgery and didn't have enough to cover the cost. The church had a meeting, split the cost and paid for it at the end of the week. No checking financial records or attendance. Those experiences shape my concept of giving and after seeing the conflict tithing causes with some, I'm greatful I don't have that issue.

For a short while I was stressing myself out about not tithing and I came across this scripture in 2 Corinthians 9:7. It reads...

Each man should give what he has decided to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, For God loves a cheerful giver.

That's what I do with my giving. I honestly can't tell you what percent of my income it is because I don't calculate it. I also don't fill out those church envelopes. I don't want what I give to be known by anyone.

I'm not trying to change the direction of the thread at all. I tend to analyze things quite a bit, but I just wanted to add to the conversation. Be blessed.

 

[Ije4eva]

Hi all. I struggled with tithing for a while because I'm also a little to logical and anlytical for my own good. I feel that with the help of family and friends that I eventually reached the conclusion that when it comes to spiritual laws (because I definitely believe that tithing is one) my own logic is a waste of time to be honest. I may not understand exactly how tithing works, but I know its blessed me and kept the devourer away from my "crop" unlike before when I was truly all over the place with my finances.

Mal 3:10 Bring the whole tithe (1/10th) into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.

As far as whether tithing is supposed to be related to food and/or if its a New Testament concept, these two verses that I discovered helped me with that:

Genesis 28:20-22
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God 22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth."

Here Jacob says "all" so IMO that relates to money as well. This was pre-law. And for some reason he seemed to be aware of the power of this concept.

Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-- mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-- justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus is clear here that He's not suggesting that you don't give a tenth. But this is where "faith leads to works". You can't buy your way into the kingdom of God. If you're heart is not right, it doesn't even matter if you give 100% of your income. Your giving should be a reflection of your heart condition. I honestly feel like I was hesitant to tithe at first because I had a "hoarding" mentality, not knowing that I would heap up blessings in the heavenly realm by opening up my hand freely through this small act showing God that I would not let any "idol" take His place on the throne of my heart.

At the end of the day I think we're all on the same page with the fact that what God truly wants is your heart and that He loves a cheerful giver. Whether you take 10% of your gross or 10% net or start with 2% and work up to 15% is all legalistic in my opinion. If you decide to tithe then that's your decision. Honestly, if the Lord has your heart, then you are already blessed in every way! This has been a great discussion ladies!

 

[Poohbear]

So most of us can all agree that the Bible says to give a tenth of what you have to God....

So how is giving a tithe to "a church" the same as giving a tithe to "God"?

Is giving a tithe to "God" suppose to be interpreted as giving a tithe to "a church"?

And is "storehouse" supposed to be interpreted as "church"?

Can someone point to me the scripture in the Bible where it says we must give this 10% of what we have to a church?

 

[nucienuce1]

This is a great and very necessary thread! Thanks so much.

 

[Ije4eva]

@ Poohbear - I've learnt that when I pay my tithe, I'm not paying my tithe to a church per se because I'm giving it to God for His own purposes. I used to make the mistake of thinking that I could only pay my tithe in my home church, but now I don't feel the same way.

What are God's purposes? In Mal 3:10 it says "Bring the whole tithe (1/10th) into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house."

I believe that any bible believing church I go to can be viewed as "God's house". And I know from that verse that the purpose of me paying my tithe is so that "there may be food". Every church needs to eat and pay bills, so IMO I'm doing my part by giving that sacrifice where that particular group of God's people are concerned for them to be good stewards of it and serve the entire body of Christ (through the different ministries they support etc).

I guess all these things are open to interpretation, but in the end, my tithe goes to God, I write the check to His house, and I always allow the Holy Spirit to direct me through the interpretation of scripture.

HTH!

 

[Prudent1]

Hi Poohbear!
And his student loans for school used to be in deferrment but they will not allow him to do that anymore.
Interesting....

I know you can live without cable and even a phone, but come on now... here's the big question: Should one get rid of all that just so you can tithe to a church??? Cut out transportation and communication with other people just so you can tithe to a church???
No, the ultimate goal is not to do x, y, or z so you can tithe. He needs to find a way(s) to increase his income or decrease his out go so he can live the way God wants him to live and not be under so many financial burdens. Owing money is stressful and can get you off focus concerning the things of God. I was giving some examples b/c I was examining some common causes for ppl not being able to tithe. I'm just saying, when yo make sacrifices for God (ie lifestyle changes) God supernaturally steps up to the plate.

Prudent1, I see where you said you lived without food... Food is something necessary for us to live. It's not healthy to go without food, and I do not think God would advise us to go without food just so you can give a tithe to a church.[/quote]

We never lived w/o food. What I did was stop eating out and cooked more, clipped coupons, and fixed lunches at home. There were sometimes when it looked like we weren't going to make it and some nights where we ate something that we didn't necessarily have a taste for but God always provided.

 

[Netta1]

I don't think GOD likes debt either....

Give Ceaser what belongs to him and Give to God what belongs to him...

Mark 12:17

 

[naijamerican]

I know I don't post often in this forum, but I lurk quite a bit and find a lot of the discussions to be spiritually edifying. This is one of them.

If you all don't mind my saying, I think that tithing is one of those issues where it's easy for Believers to be more concerned about the mechanics of tithing (whether or not it's 10% gross or net income) and not so much the heart behind it. Whenever I think of tithing, I think of the widow in Mark 12:41-44. I don't know what "percentage," per se, she tithed, but the underlying heart behind her actions was that she gave sacrificially. I believe that same inclination is what God seeks from us. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a strong biblical precedent for giving 10% of your income. However (and this might be taking the argument in a slightly different direction) if 10% of your income is not a sacrifice for you then, in view of Mark 12, do you think that your 10% is pleasing to God? Similarly, if, after accounting for all the ways that your money must be stretched (bills, food, shelter, etc.) you give sacrificially and it ends up being 2%, do you really think God is displeased by that?

I have endeavored to be a more serious student of the Bible this year, and one of the themes that keeps emerging, in both the Old and New Testaments, is the notion of one's heart in his or her actions. What immediately comes to mind is Isaiah 1:11-20 (one of my favorite passages) where God is chastising the Israelites for doing all the right things (their sacrifices, celebrations, etc.) with entirely the wrong heart. I think that this view reconciles the struggles that Poohbear is talking about in terms of people's very real financial realities, as well as the biblical call to give sacrificially to God.

The reason that this issue has some special meaning to me is because when I first started my doctoral program, I was so stressed out with how little money I had that I called my sister in a panic. I told her that I wanted to tithe 10% of my income but that, if I did that, I would literally have $5 at the end of each month. My sister was a bit shocked but shared the story of the widow with me. I trust and believe that at some point in my life, I will give more than 10% - indeed, I want to. But what I do give, I give as a sacrifice, knowing that the money could go elsewhere but instead is dedicated to God.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Netta1]

^^^ thanks for sharing nai^^^

Side bar: I am in the doctoral program too.. congrats to you!

 

[momi]

I know I don't post often in this forum, but I lurk quite a bit and find a lot of the discussions to be spiritually edifying. This is one of them.

If you all don't mind my saying, I think that tithing is one of those issues where it's easy for Believers to be more concerned about the mechanics of tithing (whether or not it's 10% gross or net income) and not so much the heart behind it. Whenever I think of tithing, I think of the widow in Mark 12:41-44. I don't know what "percentage," per se, she tithed, but the underlying heart behind her actions was that she gave sacrificially. I believe that same inclination is what God seeks from us. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a strong biblical precedent for giving 10% of your income. However (and this might be taking the argument in a slightly different direction) if 10% of your income is not a sacrifice for you then, in view of Mark 12, do you think that your 10% is pleasing to God? Similarly, if, after accounting for all the ways that your money must be stretched (bills, food, shelter, etc.) you give sacrificially and it ends up being 2%, do you really think God is displeased by that?

I have endeavored to be a more serious student of the Bible this year, and one of the themes that keeps emerging, in both the Old and New Testaments, is the notion of one's heart in his or her actions. What immediately comes to mind is Isaiah 1:11-20 (one of my favorite passages) where God is chastising the Israelites for doing all the right things (their sacrifices, celebrations, etc.) with entirely the wrong heart. I think that this view reconciles the struggles that Poohbear is talking about in terms of people's very real financial realities, as well as the biblical call to give sacrificially to God.

The reason that this issue has some special meaning to me is because when I first started my doctoral program, I was so stressed out with how little money I had that I called my sister in a panic. I told her that I wanted to tithe 10% of my income but that, if I did that, I would literally have $5 at the end of each month. My sister was a bit shocked but shared the story of the widow with me. I trust and believe that at some point in my life, I will give more than 10% - indeed, I want to. But what I do give, I give as a sacrifice, knowing that the money could go elsewhere but instead is dedicated to God.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

Very true - for some a sacrificial offerring may be 25%, for others it may be considerably less depending on circumstances. Jesus called the widows offerring a sacrifice because it was for her. It is a heart issue - and bottom line is if He has our hearts He has our time, talent, and treasure.

 

[Poohbear]

I know I don't post often in this forum, but I lurk quite a bit and find a lot of the discussions to be spiritually edifying. This is one of them.

If you all don't mind my saying, I think that tithing is one of those issues where it's easy for Believers to be more concerned about the mechanics of tithing (whether or not it's 10% gross or net income) and not so much the heart behind it. Whenever I think of tithing, I think of the widow in Mark 12:41-44. I don't know what "percentage," per se, she tithed, but the underlying heart behind her actions was that she gave sacrificially. I believe that same inclination is what God seeks from us. I wholeheartedly believe that there is a strong biblical precedent for giving 10% of your income. However (and this might be taking the argument in a slightly different direction) if 10% of your income is not a sacrifice for you then, in view of Mark 12, do you think that your 10% is pleasing to God? Similarly, if, after accounting for all the ways that your money must be stretched (bills, food, shelter, etc.) you give sacrificially and it ends up being 2%, do you really think God is displeased by that?

I have endeavored to be a more serious student of the Bible this year, and one of the themes that keeps emerging, in both the Old and New Testaments, is the notion of one's heart in his or her actions. What immediately comes to mind is Isaiah 1:11-20 (one of my favorite passages) where God is chastising the Israelites for doing all the right things (their sacrifices, celebrations, etc.) with entirely the wrong heart. I think that this view reconciles the struggles that Poohbear is talking about in terms of people's very real financial realities, as well as the biblical call to give sacrificially to God.

The reason that this issue has some special meaning to me is because when I first started my doctoral program, I was so stressed out with how little money I had that I called my sister in a panic. I told her that I wanted to tithe 10% of my income but that, if I did that, I would literally have $5 at the end of each month. My sister was a bit shocked but shared the story of the widow with me. I trust and believe that at some point in my life, I will give more than 10% - indeed, I want to. But what I do give, I give as a sacrifice, knowing that the money could go elsewhere but instead is dedicated to God.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

Thank you. Giving from the heart is also a point that I wanted to make too with these questions I have been asking, especially when I asked "are you still robbing God if you don't give 10%?" I know it's an Old Testament law but I believe that law of giving 10% was set so that people can have some type of standard to showing how much they love God. When Jesus came to fulfill the law in the New Testament, I feel like as long as you give from the heart, the amount does not matter.

For instance, there have been times I have given less than 10% of my gross income, but I gave it from my heart. Even if I tithe 10% of my gross income from my heart, there are still people out there that will judge. Like my father, who is the pastor of my church, would say stuff like "you need to give over and beyond 10%" and I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. And he would do all this talk about people who don't tithe 10% or give the amount he expects, they aren't fit for the kingdom of God. That just makes me discouraged to give to the church. It makes me feel like I'm not even giving to God when the pastor of the church is making statements like this. And it's even harder for me since I'm on the finance committee and I see how all the money of the church is being spent. I used to be very adamant about giving 10% of my gross income before my father became a pastor and before I got involved with the finance committee at my church. But now, I question it. I'm only human, I'm not perfect, all I want to do is please God in everything I do, and I surely don't like to be bashed about how much I give if I am giving from the heart.

 

[momi]

Interesting read: Giving - what your pastor wont tell.

http://flanderson.blogspot.com/2009/08/giving-what-your-pastor-wont-to-tell.html

This thread has truly prompted me to study this - the conclusion I have come to is that we are to give according to the New Testament - giving cheerfully and sacrificially out of the abundance God has blessed us with. Really, the NT model makes a case of giving much more than 10%, but not money alone... in addition to money it could mean food, gas cards for a friend in trouble, babysitting, lawn care for an elderly member - etc.

 

[mymane]

This is a very good discussion. I've always been taught to tithe 10% of your gross income. Regardless of whether you think you'll have enough money or not for bills etc. Give God his. When you're about to give, pray over that money that God will use it to meet your needs. Like someone said it's an act of obedience and faith. Giving over 10% would be considered an offering and with that one could/should ask God to place on their heart how much to give. But 10% of your gross is more so required. If you have no income, then give an offering of your time, talent whatever. That's always a good thing to do regardless. Almost every time at my church when we pray over the tithes and offering, included in the prayer is a blessing for those who could give and could not give, that EVERYONE'S needs will be met etc. Because there are people who would love to give but may not be able to (no income). No they will not be forbidden from God's kingdom, God looks at their heart and also who gives cheerfully.
Also, my mother would tell me that God may not bless you monetarily. Your blessing could come in the form of a solution to some thing or some situation you have been struggling with etc. Or for example, He wakes you up every morning in good health which in turn allows you to work, make that money, not incur doctors' bills from being in poor health, be a blesing to others etc. ALL your needs are met not just monetarily but because of that act of faith and obedience.

ETA: I'm all late, lol.

 

[Poohbear]

Interesting read: Giving - what your pastor wont tell.

http://flanderson.blogspot.com/2009/08/giving-what-your-pastor-wont-to-tell.html

This thread has truly prompted me to study this - the conclusion I have come to is that we are to give according to the New Testament - giving cheerfully and sacrificially out of the abundance God has blessed us with. Really, the NT model makes a case of giving much more than 10%, but not money alone... in addition to money it could mean food, gas cards for a friend in trouble, babysitting, lawn care for an elderly member - etc.

Thanks for sharing that link. The things mentioned in that blog are things I have been thinking about as well. I agree that we shouldn't be pressured to give. We should give from our heart whether it's less than 10% or more than 10% of our income.

Edited to add: I also thought this blog "Who was Malachi really talking to?" was an interesting read: http://flanderson.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithing-who-was-malachi-really-talking.html

I would like to show my father this articles, but I already know he will speak against them and call them heresy and false doctrine.

I tried talking to him yesterday about tithing and giving and he just got all mad and frustrated with me. He talks about tithing everyday, so it's hard not to get into a conversation about it.

 

[Laela]

I'm starting to understand this more. What I've learned about tithing is that it's something I give BACK to God from my blessing. I don't tithe because I want to be blessed. I am blessed, so I tithe.

 

[CoilyFields]

God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.

1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.

2. In the old testament they focused on cattle and grain etc. as the form of tithes. That is because that is what had value back in the day. They did not use money (coins etc. ) as their main means of exchange and determination of wealth. Money became a dominant source of exchange later in history. So since TODAY the main means of exchange and wealth is in money then that is what we need to tithe from. No other entity accepts time or in-kind services in place of paying a debt so why short-change God?

3. Time, talent etc. should be given to our churches and community in addition to our tithes. We are called to not only faith but works.

4. many times we look at the problem from the wrong angle. I know how much I gross and when i make my budget I base it off of what I will have after taxes and tithes. If there is not enough, then I do all that I can do and then leave the rest to God. Also realizing that I need to make plans to be a better steward so that there will be no shortage. Give from your FIRST and you will always have tithes to give.

5. It is a heart issue! But God does not accept a "God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word". Thats not a pure heart. Becuase if we have a pure heart then we know that God honors his word above even his name and that he expects obedience, faith, and trust from his children. God knows our frailties and will work with you but you have to submit to him and be willing to do as he has commanded in his word.

 

[Laela]

You must be referring to Matthew 23:23, ignoring the "weightier matters":

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

This, I agree with, when it comes to Tithes and Offerings. What good is our offering/tithes when our hearts aren't right with God. Thank God for Jesus' blood and renewing of spirit through repentance. So, I agree, it is a heart issue and to give cheerfully.

I don't know if you post was in response to mine, but just thought I'd respond to be a bit more clear. When I say "blessing" it's not to equate that a person can 'afford' to tithe. Being blessed is beyond monetary value. I believe we can tithe in more ways than with money... investment of time in Bible Study, worship, helping others, etc. God loves a cheerful giver.

God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.

1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.

2. In the old testament they focused on cattle and grain etc. as the form of tithes. That is because that is what had value back in the day. They did not use money (coins etc. ) as their main means of exchange and determination of wealth. Money became a dominant source of exchange later in history. So since TODAY the main means of exchange and wealth is in money then that is what we need to tithe from. No other entity accepts time or in-kind services in place of paying a debt so why short-change God?

3. Time, talent etc. should be given to our churches and community in addition to our tithes. We are called to not only faith but works.

4. many times we look at the problem from the wrong angle. I know how much I gross and when i make my budget I base it off of what I will have after taxes and tithes. If there is not enough, then I do all that I can do and then leave the rest to God. Also realizing that I need to make plans to be a better steward so that there will be no shortage. Give from your FIRST and you will always have tithes to give.

5. It is a heart issue! But God does not accept a "God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word". Thats not a pure heart. Becuase if we have a pure heart then we know that God honors his word above even his name and that he expects obedience, faith, and trust from his children. God knows our frailties and will work with you but you have to submit to him and be willing to do as he has commanded in his word.

 

[Crown]

I'm starting to understand this more. What I've learned about tithing is that it's something I give BACK to God from my blessing. I don't tithe because I want to be blessed. I am blessed, so I tithe.

I totally agree !

I don't tithe because I want to be blessed. I am blessed to be a child of God, so I tithe (money and/or time and/or talent).

 

[CoilyFields]

@Laela

Nope it wasnt in repsonse to yours lol. You know how sometimes you read a whole thread and a lot of the comments start to blend together? Well that was all the stuff that I was responding in my head as I read.

 

[goldielocs]

God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.

1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.

2. In the old testament they focused on cattle and grain etc. as the form of tithes. That is because that is what had value back in the day. They did not use money (coins etc. ) as their main means of exchange and determination of wealth. Money became a dominant source of exchange later in history. So since TODAY the main means of exchange and wealth is in money then that is what we need to tithe from. No other entity accepts time or in-kind services in place of paying a debt so why short-change God?

3. Time, talent etc. should be given to our churches and community in addition to our tithes. We are called to not only faith but works.

4. many times we look at the problem from the wrong angle. I know how much I gross and when i make my budget I base it off of what I will have after taxes and tithes. If there is not enough, then I do all that I can do and then leave the rest to God. Also realizing that I need to make plans to be a better steward so that there will be no shortage. Give from your FIRST and you will always have tithes to give.

5. It is a heart issue! But God does not accept a "God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word". Thats not a pure heart. Becuase if we have a pure heart then we know that God honors his word above even his name and that he expects obedience, faith, and trust from his children. God knows our frailties and will work with you but you have to submit to him and be willing to do as he has commanded in his word.

Good Morning CoilyFields,

I must disagree with the bolded. The purpose of the tithe being food was to feed the Levitical priesthood. They are descendents of the Tribe of Levi and were not allowed to own or inherit anything. Therefore, the other tribes were commanded to support the priesthood. The tithe had nothing to do with wealth or sacrificing to give to God. It is about provision for the tribe of Levi. While I understand that Christians may easily transfer that expectation to the present day clergy, to impose such a "rule" is wrong. If we take on that one, what about kosher eating, wearing 4 tassles, blue fringes or secluding women while they are menstrating? We are called to give freely, cheerfully and without rules. If we take on part of the law while ignoring others, we are guilty of neglecting all of it.

Also, when Christ was speaking in Matthew 23:23 he was talking to a Pharisee who is a Jew and was therefore under the law of tithing. To relate that to us is inaccurate. I don't claim to have read to whole Bible from cover to cover, but I don't recall tithing being mentioned after the 4 gospels. I only recall giving cheerfully.

Leala,

I'm with you on this response only in relation to giving and not tithing.

I'm starting to understand this more. What I've learned about tithing is that it's something I give BACK to God from my blessing. I don't tithe because I want to be blessed. I am blessed, so I tithe.

I guess this is another topic where most of us agree on the fundamentals- people and the church should be supported by giving BUT we don't agree on how to do it- giving vs. tithing.

 

[CoilyFields]

Good Morning CoilyFields,

I must disagree with the bolded. The purpose of the tithe being food was to feed the Levitical priesthood. They are descendents of the Tribe of Levi and were not allowed to own or inherit anything. Therefore, the other tribes were commanded to support the priesthood. The tithe had nothing to do with wealth or sacrificing to give to God. It is about provision for the tribe of Levi. While I understand that Christians may easily transfer that expectation to the present day clergy, to impose such a "rule" is wrong. If we take on that one, what about kosher eating, wearing 4 tassles, blue fringes or secluding women while they are menstrating? We are called to give freely, cheerfully and without rules. If we take on part of the law while ignoring others, we are guilty of neglecting all of it.

Also, when Christ was speaking in Matthew 23:23 he was talking to a Pharisee who is a Jew and was therefore under the law of tithing. To relate that to us is inaccurate. I don't claim to have read to whole Bible from cover to cover, but I don't recall tithing being mentioned after the 4 gospels. I only recall giving cheerfully.

I totally agree that the bringing of the tithe in the storehouse was to support the levites who were not given an inheritance of land. But sacrificing to God with the fruits of our labor was first mentioned with cain and abel. They offered sacrifices from the firsts of their wealth (food, livestock etc. ). And way before the law others sacrificed to God-Abraham etc. (its not a sacrifice if it doesnt hurt so therefore should come from what we attach value to). So tithing in the sense of offering sacrifice to God existed before the law but was more defined later on in the OT.

It is very true that the new testament does not specifically say "tithe 10% just like in the old testament" But there are certain laws that Jesus specifically taught about as still relevant but calling us to a deeper meaning/dedication. For example, not just not killing someone physically but now we must also not kill with our words, not only having sex outside of marriage as wrong but even a look...and concerning the Pharisee, giving tithes good but even the more not neglecting the other matters of the heart...which later on I would say included not only giving but doing it cheerfully.

Also looking to the fact that with the early churches it was right and fitting that the churches support those apostles that came to them. Paul accepted it and commended them for this.

I understand that it may seem like a jump for some but we still have the house of the Lord that needs to be supported financially to do good in the community and to support the pastor etc.

Also with the other matters of the law...kosher eating (that is addressed in the new testament) and tassels etc. these laws were put into place to show the physical seperation that the Isrealites had from the surrounding pagan nations. Jesus came to require our hearts to be different but he still upheld the principles of the OT.

Discalimer: Neither have I read the Bible from cover to cover and I do not claim to always be right. But I know what I believe and regardless of if we believe tithing is a requirement or a suggestion...God's promises are always true so that tithing WILL benefit the kingdom and everything that he promised US in accordance with tithing will happen. (Some of his promises are contingent on US doing something first). And no we do NOT lose our salvation for not tithing.

I do believe that these discussions are good for Christians to have with each other to bring us all to better understanding even if we dont necessarily agree with one another it causes us to examine ourselves.

 

[Poohbear]

God never told us to tithe if we could afford to. The whole point is to make a cheerful sacrifice in obedience.

1. The gov't takes their percentage off of your gross-everything you have earned. God should get his tenth from that same pot.

2. In the old testament they focused on cattle and grain etc. as the form of tithes. That is because that is what had value back in the day. They did not use money (coins etc. ) as their main means of exchange and determination of wealth. Money became a dominant source of exchange later in history. So since TODAY the main means of exchange and wealth is in money then that is what we need to tithe from. No other entity accepts time or in-kind services in place of paying a debt so why short-change God?

3. Time, talent etc. should be given to our churches and community in addition to our tithes. We are called to not only faith but works.

4. many times we look at the problem from the wrong angle. I know how much I gross and when i make my budget I base it off of what I will have after taxes and tithes. If there is not enough, then I do all that I can do and then leave the rest to God. Also realizing that I need to make plans to be a better steward so that there will be no shortage. Give from your FIRST and you will always have tithes to give.

5. It is a heart issue! But God does not accept a "God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word". Thats not a pure heart. Becuase if we have a pure heart then we know that God honors his word above even his name and that he expects obedience, faith, and trust from his children. God knows our frailties and will work with you but you have to submit to him and be willing to do as he has commanded in his word.

The Bible says "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes ... Honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of all your produce; so your barns will be filled with plenty and your vats will overflow with new wine" (Proverbs 3:5-10).

When God said to honor the Lord from your wealth and from the first of al your produce, He was talking about the quality of the animal that was given as an offering. The animal should be one of the best and one that is healthy. And I think that applies today. We should give our best. The word "best" is a relative term. It does not have the same definition for everyone. Giving 10% from your gross income may not be someone's best.

The Bible also says "This I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. EACH ONE MUST DO JUST AS HE HAS PURPOSED IN HIS HEART, NOT GRUDGINGLY OR UNDER COMPULSION, FOR GOD LOVES A CHEERFUL GIVER. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed" (2 Corinthians 9:6-8).

When people say tithing/giving is an issue of the heart, they are not saying what you said, "God knows my heart and so its ok to be disobedient to his word." No one here is making an excuse to be disobedient just because they may not be able to give 10% of their GROSS income. The Bible clearly states that we should give as we are able to give. I believe God is happy with any amount that is given out of the sincerity and kindness of one's heart. Just because the preacher or man is unhappy with the amount doesn't mean they are being disobedient to God.

If you look at it from a realistic point of view, let's say someone is cheerfully giving $200 a month, but based on the 10% of gross income rule, the pastor says they "should" be giving $400 a month... that's ridiculous to deem them as being disobedient. At least they are giving. God simply says to give from a cheerful heart.