Spinoff: Trinity...is or isn't?

[JenJen2721]

Yep. I think I do. They have the same goals. But one is the source (Father) and the other is the way (Son).

Hi Delightful Flame,

Please share your thoughts on the following scriptures. To me, they prove that there is only ONE God. Let me know what you think.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5For even if there are socalled gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Isaiah 43:10 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(These two scriptures prove that Jesus and God are the same.)


Here Paul speaks about God, not "Gods":
Galatians 4:8-9
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God–or rather are known by God–how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?


I'll try to find more...

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Hey Jen!

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5For even if there are socalled gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

This isn't saying that there aren't many gods. It is saying that only ONE is the Father...the source. Obviously there are many Gods because even we are gods according to scripture (sons/daughters of God)...

Psalm 82
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


John 10
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Notice that Jesus never claimed to be the Father.

Isaiah 43
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

God, the Father, is the source. There is no other source. I agree. However, Jesus is savior...THROUGH the Father. The Father is the source. Whatever power, strength, etc. I have comes FROM the Father THROUGH Jesus. There is no other God of my life, other than the same God that was the God of Jesus, the FATHER.

This passage also reads (to me) that outside of God, there are no other Gods formed. None before Him or after Him...outside of Him. Jesus and God's other children are formed by Him.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These scriptures and others do show that Jesus is God. But they do NOT show that Jesus is the Father. Jesus had a God, the Father. Whatever Jesus got and was, He obtained it from the Father. However, the Father does not have a God. He is it.

Galatians 4:8-9
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God–or rather are known by God–how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?

Most scripture does speak about God...the Father/Source. Even Jesus did. I don't see the relevance of this one.

 

[JenJen2721]

Hey Jen!



This isn't saying that there aren't many gods. It is saying that only ONE is the Father...the source. Obviously there are many Gods because even we are gods according to scripture (sons/daughters of God)...

Psalm 82
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

The bible makes a distinction between a god and God. Why do you think the bible capitalizes God sometimes and not others? I believe it's making a distinction. Like a word that is spelled the same, but means different things. (I think that's a synonym...I forgot most of my grammar stuff.)

When the bible states that there are gods (with a little g), it speaks of either things people worship (idols) or in the instance that we are gods, it means that we have the power to do God's work in us, but that we are not God, himself.

I don't think the bible ever calls Jesus a god. It says that Jesus was God...and that there is only ONE God.

Does that make sense?

 

[JenJen2721]

Quote:
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



These scriptures and others do show that Jesus is God. But they do NOT show that Jesus is the Father. Jesus had a God, the Father. Whatever Jesus got and was, He obtained it from the Father. However, the Father does not have a God. He is it.

You confuse me here. You say that Jesus had a God, but the scripture in John 1 says that Jesus WAS God. It doesn't say that Jesus had a God.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Jesus had a God...in other scriptures posted earlier, Jesus said that the Father was His God. I'll find them in a minute.

Yes, it does say that Jesus was God. But it never said that Jesus was the Father. Jesus said He was equal to God, but was clear that everything He had, including all of His power, was given to Him by God, the Father.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

So here's what I got from the scriptures and the postings and some other sites. This is my interpretation. I'm going to try to keep it simple b/c it can get so confusing. I do not believe that scripture supports a Trinity.

*God is the Father. He is the SOURCE. He is THE God. He doesn't have a God besides Himself. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Isaiah 44:8)

*Jesus, the Son, is the PATH or the WAY to God. All things were made THROUGH Jesus. (Colossians 14-17, 1 Cor 8:6)

It's kindof like me being human. We wouldn't expect my mom, being human, to have a cat for a daughter. So why would we expect God, being God, not to have a God for a son? So Jesus is man and God.

*Is Jesus God? Yes. (Phil. 2:6, Heb 1:8)

*Is Jesus the Father? No. Jesus, unlike God, has a God- the Father. Jesus called the Father the one true, good God. (John 17:3, Mark 10:18, 1 Cor 15:21-28)

*So then we tackle the scripture, John 1:1. The word was with God and the word was God. Yes. But it was not the Father. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God, but Jesus is not/was not the Father.

*Jesus does the Father's will. I haven't read of the Father doing Jesus's will.

*From what I can tell, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and the Father. (John 14:23) It is not a 3rd, separate person. It is the Spirit of Truth, and Jesus said the He was the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, John 16:13-15; John 14:18, John 14:20, John 14:26-27, John 16:7)

*Do we worship Jesus? He was worshipped in the bible. (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 15:25)

Here are the scriptures again.

 

[JenJen2721]

Jesus had a God...in other scriptures posted earlier, Jesus said that the Father was His God. I'll find them in a minute.

Yes, it does say that Jesus was God. But it never said that Jesus was the Father. Jesus said He was equal to God, but was clear that everything He had, including all of His power, was given to Him by God, the Father.

So you think that there was a God, the Father and a God the Son, but that they're not the same? Although the bible states that there is only one God...with a capital G. Are there any scriptures that states that there is more than one God? not god. Do you see the distinction? Otherwise the bible contradicts itself, right?

 

[DelightfulFlame]

girl, I dunno. I'm still trying to put it together myself. Which is why I said I think.

If there is one God, then who woke Jesus up when He was DEAD for 3 days?

 

[JenJen2721]

This is one of the main scriptures I've been searching for:

John 10:29-30
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Jesus clearly states in this scripture that he and the Father are one.

 

[JenJen2721]

girl, I dunno. I'm still trying to put it together myself. Which is why I said I think.

If there is one God, then who woke Jesus up when He was DEAD for 3 days?

This is how I explain it...Jesus was both man and God, so therefore he had to have all the attributes that we have...so God the Father woke up Jesus the man.

Let me know what you think.
--J

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Nope. I don't get that. You have ONE God...who dies.

1) How does God die? If Jesus=God=Holy Spirit = ONE GOD, then when one dies they all die...because they are one.

2) How does the dead God wake Himself up?

 

[stcsweet]

This is why there is are 3 distinct persons of our single God.

God is, was, and always will be. God doesn't die. One of the persons of God was a physical human being (Jesus) who died and was raised from the dead. Things of the earth die, God doesn't.

Hope that helps...

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Thanks hon. But that still makes no sense to me. God, the Father, died? Well if the Son is the Father, then that's what would have happened. The Trinity-- water, air, ice..."sounds" nice, but it makes no sense to me.

 

[JenJen2721]

This is why there is are 3 distinct persons of our single God.

God is, was, and always will be. God doesn't die. One of the persons of God was a physical human being (Jesus) who died and was raised from the dead. Things of the earth die, God doesn't.

Hope that helps...

Right...the human part of God died.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

The human part of God? So God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19), but He is a man that He should die?

 

[pebbles]

The human part of God? So God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19), but He is a man that He should die?

Remember that Jesus is the word if God made flesh (a man) John 1:14. Since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are the same, the word made flesh (Jesus) died on the cross, (and rose again! Something only God can do), but God the Father did not die.

Christianity is the belief of God in three persons, not that He is three seperate Gods, but that He is one God in 3 forms. Yes, it's confusing to some and a difficult concept to grasp, but finite man will never fully understand an infinite God. This, (the belief of one God in three distinct persons), is one of the greatest mysteries of our Christian faith, and where our personal faith in Christ comes to play. Has any of us ever seen Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? No. So how do most of us know that Jesus is God, or that He lived and died for our sins, and that the Holy Spirit is in fact the Spirit of God? The word of God says it, the Holy Spirit reveals it to us, and we believe by faith.

It's important to understand that there will be questions to which you won't receive an answer that makes sense to you, but trust and believe, if you are of a heart to. In Luke 18: 15-17, Jesus tells us: "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." In other words, just as children are trusting and believe what is said to them, that is what God wants of us. Unconditional trust and belief in Him and His word.

This is what our Christian faith is built on: faith in what we haven't seen, but we know in our hearts that these are truths about God. How? Again, The Holy Spirit reveals it to us in the word and through prayer, and we believe.

 

[mkstar826]

I believe in the oneness of God (no other gods like Budha, Hindu gods, etc.)

off topic slightly: Buddha wasn't and didn't claim to be a god. He was a teacher. There is no God in Buddhism.

back on topic:

I read this whole topic and all I can say to the OP is pray about it and ask for clarity and understanding. There is a lot of human error when it comes to explaining the trinity and if it is or isn't valid. Since the term is not mentioned in the Bible, all one can do is study the origins of it and how it came to be such a prominent belief in Christianity. If you study that then it's clear that the validity of the trinity (or the 3 in 1 notion) is questionable. But that's hard for some to accept because that's all they know and have been taught. Bottom line is, humans twist and turn the Word to make it mean what THEY want it to mean. That's how two people can read the same scripture and see two totally different meanings. Interpretation is an extremely relative thing. As enlightening as this topic may be, relying on each other to explain this thing is only going to lead to more confusion because everyone has a different agenda.

 

[Poohbear]

off topic slightly: Buddha wasn't and didn't claim to be a god. He was a teacher. There is no God in Buddhism.

I was just making the point that God is the only God...no other gods. I know Buddhism doesn't have an actual God, but Buddha is their god (something they worshipped).

I read this whole topic and all I can say to the OP is pray about it and ask for clarity and understanding. There is a lot of human error when it comes to explaining the trinity and if it is or isn't valid. Since the term is not mentioned in the Bible, all one can do is study the origins of it and how it came to be such a prominent belief in Christianity. If you study that then it's clear that the validity of the trinity (or the 3 in 1 notion) is questionable. But that's hard for some to accept because that's all they know and have been taught. Bottom line is, humans twist and turn the Word to make it mean what THEY want it to mean. That's how two people can read the same scripture and see two totally different meanings. Interpretation is an extremely relative thing. As enlightening as this topic may be, relying on each other to explain this thing is only going to lead to more confusion because everyone has a different agenda.

I agree (to what I put in bold)!

 

[mkstar826]

I understood your point but from what you said earlier and just now, I see that you are misunderstanding Buddhism because they don't worship Buddha...they don't pray to Buddha. He was/is not their God or god. So it really shouldn't be used in your argument.

 

[Poohbear]

I understood your point but from what you said earlier and just now, I see that you are misunderstanding Buddhism because they don't worship Buddha...they don't pray to Buddha. He was/is not their God or god. So it really shouldn't be used in your argument.

Oh okay. Yeah, I don't know much about Buddha, so sorry for using Buddha in my argument.

 

[Poohbear]

For those that don't believe in trinity...

What do you think about when you come across the phrase "God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" in the Bible???

 

[pebbles]

off topic slightly: Buddha wasn't and didn't claim to be a god. He was a teacher. There is no God in Buddhism.

back on topic:

I read this whole topic and all I can say to the OP is pray about it and ask for clarity and understanding. There is a lot of human error when it comes to explaining the trinity and if it is or isn't valid. Since the term is not mentioned in the Bible, all one can do is study the origins of it and how it came to be such a prominent belief in Christianity. If you study that then it's clear that the validity of the trinity (or the 3 in 1 notion) is questionable. But that's hard for some to accept because that's all they know and have been taught. Bottom line is, humans twist and turn the Word to make it mean what THEY want it to mean. That's how two people can read the same scripture and see two totally different meanings. Interpretation is an extremely relative thing. As enlightening as this topic may be, relying on each other to explain this thing is only going to lead to more confusion because everyone has a different agenda.

What "agenda" do we have here other than to fellowship together amongst other Christians and to discuss that Jesus Christ IS Lord? I'm not understanding that last phrase. Most of us here know and understand that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same.
We don't really know how that is and cannot explain it enough for DF to understand it, and maybe she doesn't want to understand it, in which case there isn't anything anyone can say that she will believe or accept, but I'm glad that there are people willing to try.

Ultimately, sisters, we can't talk such knowledge into anyone. Many great posts have been made trying to explain this phenomenon, but people need to be of a heart to receive what is being said, and if it appears that no matter what you say nothing is getting through, then the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed this to them, and it is through the power of the Holy Spirit alone that a person will come to accept that there are 3 persons in one God. I do agree that there is too much potential for confussion in some of these topics and that's not what we want, so if it looks like you aren't getting anywhere, make your statement and move on. Just pray that God will touch hearts and bring clarity where it is needed.

 

[Poohbear]

What "agenda" do we have here other than to fellowship together amongst other Christians and to discuss that Jesus Christ IS Lord? I'm not understanding that last phrase. Most of us here know and understand that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same.
We don't really know how that is and cannot explain it enough for DF to understand it, and maybe she doesn't want to understand it, in which case there isn't anything anyone can say that she will believe or accept, but I'm glad that there are people willing to try.

Ultimately, sisters, we can't talk such knowledge into anyone. Many great posts have been made trying to explain this phenomenon, but people need to be of a heart to receive what is being said, and if it appears that no matter what you say nothing is getting through, then the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed this to them, and it is through the power of the Holy Spirit alone that a person will come to accept that there are 3 persons in one God. I do agree that there is too much potential for confussion in some of these topics and that's not what we want, so if it looks like you aren't getting anywhere, make your statement and move on. Just pray that God will touch hearts and bring clarity where it is needed.

I totally agree!

 

[DelightfulFlame]

ETA: @Poohbear

1 John 5 (NIV)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

[a]Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
-------------------------------------------------

I post because I have questions, which I of course pray about, but I believe that God often times reveals things through people. So when I post, I'm looking for various points of views other than my own. It doesn't mean that I have to agree, because if my Spirit doesn't bear witness than it is discarded. And if I need clarification, then I ask for it.

The fact that there is confusion regarding these topics is the exact reason why they need to be addressed. I agree that there is much mystery, and I'm not going to know everything in my time on earth. But that doesn't stop me from trying. In fact it is my duty to seek. The bible says to prove all things, study to show thyself approved, seek and you shall find, etc. So that's what I'm going to do until the day I die.

Thanks to all posters for your input. I realize that we all have different experiences (which is what I think mkstar meant by agendas), and we all may not agree. It does not, however, make your posts any less meaningful. And there may be even someone else out there that God is speaking to through your posts.

I'm the type of person that enjoys the journey just as much or more than the destination, so again...while we may not always agree, it doesn't mean that the topic wasn't worth thinking about or that your posts weren't meaningful.

 

[pebbles]

ETA: @Poohbear

1 John 5 (NIV)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

[a]Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
-------------------------------------------------

I post because I have questions, which I of course pray about, but I believe that God often times reveals things through people. So when I post, I'm looking for various points of views other than my own. It doesn't mean that I have to agree, because if my Spirit doesn't bear witness than it is discarded. And if I need clarification, then I ask for it.

The fact that there is confusion regarding these topics is the exact reason why they need to be addressed. I agree that there is much mystery, and I'm not going to know everything in my time on earth. But that doesn't stop me from trying. In fact it is my duty to seek. The bible says to prove all things, study to show thyself approved, seek and you shall find, etc. So that's what I'm going to do until the day I die.

Thanks to all posters for your input. I realize that we all have different experiences (which is what I think mkstar meant by agendas), and we all may not agree. It does not, however, make your posts any less meaningful. And there may be even someone else out there that God is speaking to through your posts.

I'm the type of person that enjoys the journey just as much or more than the destination, so again...while we may not always agree, it doesn't mean that the topic wasn't worth thinking about or that your posts weren't meaningful.

How can your "spirit" bear witness to something it doesn't know or understand? It's only the Spirit if the Lord that can convict and change hearts. Our spirits can do nothing without divine guidance. And I'm of the personal opinion that we don't possess enough knowledge of the things of the Father to disagree with the things that He says. We can only take Him at His word through our faith, but again, that's my own personal view. And I sincerely do not see the connection between people's experiences and an agenda.

Anyway, please continue to ask your questions. My point was that if in explaining something people become redundent, then they've done all they can to explain, and the rest in the hand of Holy Spirit. Peace. :Rose:

 

[Enchantmt]

There is a chuch in Tx that offers free bible study tapes. They never ask for money, dont send you mail or call you or anything, although you can support them if you like. Here is the website. http://www.rbthieme.org/

Call and order their basics or let them know its your first order and they will send you the lessons they recommend for beginners. You can get them on cassette, like 20 tapes or so, or on an mp3 disc with 28-30 lessons. Pastor Thieme goes into a pretty good explanation of the Trinity and attributes. This may help those having problems with this concept. These are teachings their church recorded in the 60's. Very good information, basic bible principles, how we got the bible, the language the bible was written in, why its accurate, and why there is only one interpretation.

(713) 621-3740

Operations Hours: Monday–Friday, 9:00 am–4:00 pm (Central)

Phone Hours: Monday–Friday, 8:00 am–3:00 pm (Central)

 

[DelightfulFlame]

How can your "spirit" bear witness to something it doesn't know or understand? It's only the Spirit if the Lord that can convict and change hearts. Our spirits can do nothing without divine guidance. And I'm of the personal opinion that we don't possess enough knowledge of the things of the Father to disagree with the things that He says. We can only take Him at His word through our faith, but again, that's my own personal view. And I sincerely do not see the connection between people's experiences and an agenda.

The Spirit of the Lord is the Spirit within me. True, I will never know all things about the Father. I have said that several times. However, there are things that just don't line up with my Spirit. They don't feel right or make sense.

As for what the Father says...who is disagreeing? I disagree with much of what you all have said, but you all are NOT the Father. I'm sure that when the Father reveals the answers to me in His time, there will be no disagreement. Yes, I have faith. But it is not blind faith b/c I'm too lazy, scared, or whatever excuse there is... to seek.

 

[pebbles]

As for what the Father says...who is disagreeing? I disagree with much of what you all have said, but you all are NOT the Father. I'm sure that when the Father reveals the answers to me in His time, there will be no disagreement. Yes, I have faith. But it is not blind faith b/c I'm too lazy, scared, or whatever excuse there is... to seek.

Delightful, at no time has ANYONE here claimed to be the Father. I certainly haven't. I don't see why you would even say that. And since you say yourself that you disagree with much of what has been said, that further proves my point that when you've said all you can and someone still doesn't see or agree with what you've been trying to tell them, then we should let it go. I wasn't talking to you on that point. I'm talking to the other ladies in this thread. Since the Father is not the author of confussion, if He resides in you as you say, then open up your heart and receive what is being said, because when God reveals these truths to one, He reveals it to all. He won't hold it back from you and He won't tell the rest of us one thing and you something else. And yes, I have a lot of faith, to the point where you might think it's "blind faith." But I can assure you, I am not lazy, scared or whatever else you might think. I am big on studying the word! I just choose to believe what God says and accept that I don't and won't know it all. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[Poohbear]

The Spirit of the Lord is the Spirit within me. True, I will never know all things about the Father. I have said that several times. However, there are things that just don't line up with my Spirit. They don't feel right or make sense.

As for what the Father says...who is disagreeing? I disagree with much of what you all have said, but you all are NOT the Father. I'm sure that when the Father reveals the answers to me in His time, there will be no disagreement. Yes, I have faith. But it is not blind faith b/c I'm too lazy, scared, or whatever excuse there is... to seek.

What doesn't feel right or make sense about God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit??? No one has asked or told you to agree, but what you're looking for is RIGHT THERE in the Bible...His Holy Word!
And what specifically do you disagree with??? I don't get your thinking...

 

[pookeylou]

My two pennies:

Trinity...no. Three seperate individual/forces...yes.

God: the creator of all things. No beginning, has no end, cannot die. Jesus died and was resurrected. God cannot die. When Jesus died...it was his Father who resurrected him. Acts 2:32.

Jesus: God's Son. The only begotton (only one directly created by God). Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am."- John 14:28 Jesus also said, "I am God's Son." when the religious leaders accused him of blasphemy because he claimed to be the son of God. - John 10:36 Therefore God and God's son Jesus are not the same person. They are not equal. 1 Corintians 11:3 says, "the head of Christ...is God." Jesus at no time claimed to be equal to God or to be God.

Holy Spirit: God's powerful force. Used to create, anoint, (When Jesus was baptized, holy spirit rested upon him in the shape of a dove. Matthew 3:11) It is a force...not a person.

I think the example of Jesus baptizm is proof for me that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine.

Jesus was baptized
Holy spirit rested upon him
God spoke from Heaven, "This is my son...the beloved...whom I have approved."

Matthew 3:13-17

Those three factors are not one...but three seperate factors.

Those points and others are why I chose not to believe in the Trinity, but believe in God, his son Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy spirit are seperate...not equal.