BlkHoneyLuv2U
Well-Known Member
Okay, I see we are on the same track just different denominations. Its just that you apply the term Trinity and I believe in the Oneness of God. I believe in Jesus as fully human yet fully God.Poohbear said:
Spinoff: Trinity...is or isn't?
- Thread starter DelightfulFlame
- Start date
stcsweet
New Member
DelightfulFlame said:
As one like us, while on the earth, Jesus learned how to pray to the Father. So, God (the Father) had God the Son (Jesus) praying to Him. Once again, this is a single God with distinct persons.
DelightfulFlame said:
I have also questioned this in the past. Pray about any uneasiness you may feel around this, then do what the Spirit leads you to do. Ephesians 5:20 says
...always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;
DelightfulFlame said:
You are right on point.DelightfulFlame
New Member
What about these?
John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
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Plus, if God is Spirit, then how could Jesus be God? (flesh)
John 4
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
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Just adding this from the other thread b/c it is worth further study to me...
1 John 5 (NIV)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
[a]Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
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Jesus did say that He and God are one. But He didn't say what that one was.
John 10
30I and my Father are one.
----------------------------------------------------
Interesting scripture...makes God and Lord two different things. I always thought they were the same, but apparently not. I guess now I need to find out what the difference is b/c they look similar in that all things are in them, but yet they are made different in that they are mentioned separately.
1 Corinthians 8
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
----------------------------------------
According to this, Jesus came from the Father. So it becomes a question of who came first, the chicken or the egg? The Son or the Father?
John 16
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
----------------------------------------------------------
In this scripture, it appears that Christ was created from God and everything else was created in Christ.
Colossians
13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.
The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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See this is where I get tripped up. Notice it calls Jesus "man".
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Plus, if God is Spirit, then how could Jesus be God? (flesh)
John 4
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
-----------------------------------------------------
Just adding this from the other thread b/c it is worth further study to me...
1 John 5 (NIV)
7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
[a]Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
--------------------------------------------------
Jesus did say that He and God are one. But He didn't say what that one was.
John 10
30I and my Father are one.
----------------------------------------------------
Interesting scripture...makes God and Lord two different things. I always thought they were the same, but apparently not. I guess now I need to find out what the difference is b/c they look similar in that all things are in them, but yet they are made different in that they are mentioned separately.
1 Corinthians 8
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
----------------------------------------
According to this, Jesus came from the Father. So it becomes a question of who came first, the chicken or the egg? The Son or the Father?
John 16
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
----------------------------------------------------------
In this scripture, it appears that Christ was created from God and everything else was created in Christ.
Colossians
13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.
The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
----------------------------------------------------
See this is where I get tripped up. Notice it calls Jesus "man".
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
I believe in the oneness of God (no other gods like Budha, Hindu gods, etc.) and I believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine too!ladydee36330 said:
So that's why I don't see why you don't believe in trinity. Your beliefs explain trinity. Yes, the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible. It's just a concept used to explain something in the Bible. There's other concepts that are man-made terms that are used to explain things in the Bible such as Messianic Secret and the Golden Rule and Transfiguration... I can't think of any others.
Btw, I grew up in a Baptist denomination.
What is your denomination???
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Definition of Trinity from NIV Bible: the Christian doctrine of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three-in-one.
*simple as that... nothing more, nothing less!
Other verses referencing to Trinity as defined...
In the name of Trinity: Matthew 28:16-20
Blessing of Trinity: 2 Corinthians 13:14
Trinity in salvation: Titus 3:3-8 and Jude 20-21
*simple as that... nothing more, nothing less!
Other verses referencing to Trinity as defined...
In the name of Trinity: Matthew 28:16-20
Blessing of Trinity: 2 Corinthians 13:14
Trinity in salvation: Titus 3:3-8 and Jude 20-21
DelightfulFlame
New Member
More scriptures that further confuse things. 
John 14
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
-------------------------------------------------
So if Christ is God, then He is the head of Himself?
1 Corinthians 11
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
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If they are the same, then why are they separated. Here again, there is God and Jesus is Lord. I've got to look into this Lord title, because it appears to be different, but similar to God.
Ephesians 1
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
--------------------------------------------
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
John 14
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
-------------------------------------------------
So if Christ is God, then He is the head of Himself?
1 Corinthians 11
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
-------------------------------------------------------
If they are the same, then why are they separated. Here again, there is God and Jesus is Lord. I've got to look into this Lord title, because it appears to be different, but similar to God.
Ephesians 1
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
--------------------------------------------
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
DelightfulFlame
New Member
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
If Jesus is God, then why did He have to be given power?
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
If Jesus is God, then why did He have to be given power?
BlkHoneyLuv2U
Well-Known Member
Poohbear said:I believe in the oneness of God (no other gods like Budha, Hindu gods, etc.) and I believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine too!
Yes, the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible. It's just a concept used to explain something in the Bible. There's other concepts that are man-made terms that are used to explain things in the Bible such as Messianic Secret and the Golden Rule and Transfiguration... I can't think of any others.
Btw, I grew up in a Baptist denomination.
I am oneness apostolic/pentecostal. I believe in, preach(should say witness) and teach on what the apostles believed, preached and taught. I grew up in an AME church and thought I really believed in God but found out that I did not really believetill many years later when I had a Damascus Road encounter with Him. Since that meeting, I havent been back to a trinity believing church. My mother is Baptist and if her soul is being fed there then I say good for her and go with it. But its just not for me.
DelightfulFlame
New Member
Woa...thoroughly confused now. Will be praying and meditating on these. My head hurts right now.
Jesus prayed to the father...the father is going to send the spirit...Jesus is coming to us (spirit). Goodness!
John 14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Jesus prayed to the father...the father is going to send the spirit...Jesus is coming to us (spirit). Goodness!
John 14
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
When Jesus said "I will come to you" he meant it. Although Jesus ascended to heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit to live in believers, and to have the Holy Spirit is to have Jesus himself.DelightfulFlame said:
"God is a Spirit" means he is not a physical being (human) limited to one space. He is present everywhere and he can be worshipped anywhere, anytime. Do you remember when I said this in another thread?
Jesus Christ came by water and blood may refer to Jesus' baptism and his crucifixion. At this time, there was a false teaching in circulation that said Jesus was God only between his baptism and his death--that is, he was born merely human until he was baptiszed, at which time "the Christ" then descended upon him, but then later left him before his death on the cross. But if Jesus died only as a man, he could not have taken upon himself the sins of the world, and Christianity would be an empty religion. Only an act of God could take away the punishment we deserve for our sin. *Read that VERY carefully*
This is the clearest statement of Jesus' divinity he ever made. Jesus and his Father are not the same person, but they are one in essence and nature. Thus Jesus is not merely a good teacher--he is God. His claim to be God was unmistakable. The religious leaders wanted to kill him for it, b/c their laws said that anyone claiming to be God should die. Nothing could persuade them that Jesus' claim was true.
I'll get back wit u on the rest of the scriptures u mentioned. Hope that helps!!!
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Paul addressed these words in verses 4 thru 9 to believers who weren't bothered by eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Although idols were not real, and the pagan ritual of sacrificing them was meaningless, eating such meat offended Christians with more sensitive consciences. Paul said, therefore, the weaker or less mature believers misunderstood their actions, they should, out of consideration, avoid eating meat offered by idols.DelightfulFlame said:
In the passage John 16:17-33, Jesus is teaching about using his name in prayer. In the verse you mentioned here, Jesus is talking about a new relationship between the believer and God. Previously, people approached God through priests. After Jesus' resurrection, any believer could approach God directly (through prayer). A new day has dawned and now al believers are priests (meaning all believers can approach God like priests did), talking with God pesonally and directly (see Hebrews 10:19-23). We approach God, not because of our own merit, but because Jesus, our great High Priest, has made us acceptable to God.
The Colossians feared the unseen forces of darkness, Paul says that true believers have been transferred from darkness to light, from slavery to freedom, from guilt to forgiveness, and from the power of Satan to the power of God. We have been resuced from a rebel kingdom to serve the rightful King. Our conduct should reflect our new allegiance (our alliance with Jesus).
We human beings are separated from God by sin, and only one person in the universe is our mediator and can stand between us and bring us together again--that person being JESUS...who is both God and man. Jesus' sacrifice (giving up his life for us on the cross) brought new life to all mankind.
I'll get back with you on the Colossians verse I took out. I gotta do some more studying and research. It's gonna be a long post.
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
As God the Son, Jesus willingly submits to God the Father. On earth, Jesus also submitted to many of the physical limitations of being human. See, God is not limited to physical space.DelightfulFlame said:More scriptures that further confuse things.
John 14
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
-------------------------------------------------
In the phrase "the head of the woman is a man" head is not used to indicate control or supremacy, rather, "the source of". Because man was created first, the woman derives her existence from man, as man does from Christ, and Christ from God. Paul was evidently correcting some excesses in worship that the emancipated Corinthian woman had engaged in.
Heaven is where God is, right? "All spiritual blessings in heavenly places" means all the good things God gives us--salvation, the gifts of the Spirit, power to do God's will, the hope of living forever with Christ. Because we have an intimate relationship with Christ, we can enjoy these blessings now. Christ has a victorious, exalted role as ruler of all.
Paul prayed that the Ephesians might really understand who Christ is. I'm sure it's hard for us today to understand who Christ is as well. Christ is our model, and the more we know him, the more we will be like him. Study Jesus' life in the Bible to see what was like on earth about 2000 years ago and get to know him in prayer. Personal knowledge of Jesus is life changing!
Hope that helps!!!
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
God gave Jesus authority over heaven and earth. On the basis of that authority, Jesus told his disciples to make more disciples as they preached, baptized, and taught. With this same authority, Jesus still commands us to tell others the Gospel and make them disciples for the Kingdom.DelightfulFlame said:
When someone is dying or leaving us, his/her last words are usually very important. Jesus left the disciples with these last words of instruction: they were under his authority; they were to make more disciples; they were to baptize and teach them to obey him; he would be with them always. Whereas in previous missions Jesus had sent his disciples only to the Jews, their mission from now on would be worldwide. Jesus is Lord on earth, and he died for the sins of people from ALL nations.
We are to go as well and make disciples...whether it's next door or to another country. It is not an option, but a command to all who call Jesus "Lord". We are not all evangelists, but we have all received gifts that we can use in helping to fulfill the Great Commission. As we obey we have comfort in the knowledge that Jesus is always with us.
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Jesus says these verses when he promises the Holy Spirit. Jesus was soon going to leave the disciples when he said these verses, but he remain with them, how? The Comforter--the Spirit of God himself (the Holy Spirit)--would come after Jesus was gone to care for and guide the disciples. This happened to the disciples just before his ascension (going up into heaven) and to all the believers at Pentecost, shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God within us and all believers, helping us live as God wants and building Christ's church on earth. By faith we can appropriate his power each day.DelightfulFlame said:
The word translated Comforter combines the ideas of comfort and counsel. The Holy Spirit is a powerful person (not physical) on our side, working for and with us.
Here are some truths about the Holy Spirit:
he will never leave us
the world at large cannot recognize him
he lives with us and in us
he teaches us
he reminds us of Jesus' words
he reproves us of sin, shows us God's righteousness, and announces God's judgement of evil
he guides into trith and gives sight into future events
he glorifies Christ
he has been active among people fron the beginning of time, but after Pentecost, he came to live in all believers
Many people are unaware of the Holy Spirit's activities, but to those who receive Christ's word and understand the Spirit's power, he gives a whole new way to look at life.
I hope that helps you understand the Holy Spirit. Does that give you a better idea??? Wheww!!!
BlkHoneyLuv2U
Well-Known Member
No my beliefs are not based on denomiation but on the Word of God.
GoingBack
Well-Known Member
Thank you for that explanation. I have always wondered about the Trinity, but thought that I would sound stupid if I asked.
JuJuBoo said:Yes there's a Trinity. Here's some scriptural reference.
Colossians 1:15-23
The Supremacy of Christ
***15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
The Trinity can be hard to comprehend and hard to explain...How can someone be three in one? I try and use analogies. For example, H2O- there are three forms of water-solid (ice), liquid, and gas (vapor). They are three different forms, but it's still all water. Our own bodies are 3 part beings:Mind, body, and spirit, but it's still all me.
There are things about the Trinity that I STILL can't completely grasp and I've been a Christian for a long time. I just think it's one of those things that's hard for our little minds to wrap around. It makes COMPLETE sense to my spirit-man, but at times my mind is like "say wha?"
Leslie_C
Well-Known Member
I too am confused about the trinity. How can God also be his own son? It just doesnt make sense. We worship our Father who is God. Jesus is his son, we dont worship Jesus, we worship God. And if they are one in the same then why are they addressed differently by name? and isnt Gods name Jehovah? If this is his name, then how can he be called Jesus?
Now I am not one who really knows the bible because I wasnt brought up in Church but we studied the bible at home and that was always one of the most controversal issues among the family bc my grandfather on my dads side was a pentecostal (sp) preacher, and strongly believed in the trinity. My parents are both religous, but dont really believe in going to church because most churches where we lived were more politics than religion. My mom always says that the bible says "were two or more people gather in my name" is considered church.
But back to my point, I can in no way imagine how God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit can all be the same person. I know that I do need to start learning my bible though, I just dont know where to begin, its so overwhelming.
Now I am not one who really knows the bible because I wasnt brought up in Church but we studied the bible at home and that was always one of the most controversal issues among the family bc my grandfather on my dads side was a pentecostal (sp) preacher, and strongly believed in the trinity. My parents are both religous, but dont really believe in going to church because most churches where we lived were more politics than religion. My mom always says that the bible says "were two or more people gather in my name" is considered church.
But back to my point, I can in no way imagine how God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit can all be the same person. I know that I do need to start learning my bible though, I just dont know where to begin, its so overwhelming.
stcsweet
New Member
There is a great hymn, "Holy, Holy, Holy" that includes the phrase, 'God in 3 persons. Blessed Trinity.'
This song has been going through my mind and touches my heart many times.
The concept of God being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (described as the 'trinity' by Christians) is something that I'm not sure anyone really truly understands - in their mind. Our minds are very intricate and logical (most of the time). It's natural for humans to want to understand everything with our minds.
It's natural to hear, "I don't get it", "How can that be?", "I just don't understand", "I'm confused". This is normal! (believe it or not).
I've prayed about this very topic before. As I've studied before and study now, I feel warmth in my heart around the topic. I feel a comfort in my spirit about this topic. I can't explain this very well, but that's how I feel. I'm very sure that this is God (the Holy Spirit person) that is relating this comfort to me around the topic.
Lean on prayer with this. Keep asking questions. One day, you too will feel that comfort around the topic. It may not be this week, this month, or even this year...but, one day it will happen.
May God continue to help your spirit understand the things your mind currently can't.
This song has been going through my mind and touches my heart many times.
The concept of God being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (described as the 'trinity' by Christians) is something that I'm not sure anyone really truly understands - in their mind. Our minds are very intricate and logical (most of the time). It's natural for humans to want to understand everything with our minds.
It's natural to hear, "I don't get it", "How can that be?", "I just don't understand", "I'm confused". This is normal! (believe it or not).
I've prayed about this very topic before. As I've studied before and study now, I feel warmth in my heart around the topic. I feel a comfort in my spirit about this topic. I can't explain this very well, but that's how I feel. I'm very sure that this is God (the Holy Spirit person) that is relating this comfort to me around the topic.
Lean on prayer with this. Keep asking questions. One day, you too will feel that comfort around the topic. It may not be this week, this month, or even this year...but, one day it will happen.
May God continue to help your spirit understand the things your mind currently can't.
JuJuBoo
Child of THE King!
stcsweet said:
Amen sister!
I think God in 3 persons is something that we can't FULLY understand. It's like the question that kids ask "If God created everything, where did God come from." And grownups answer "He's God, so He's always been there. He's just God." Knowing fully well, in OUR minds we're like "Dang, what was God doing before he created everything? Just chillin?"
There are several things about God that we'll NEVER FULLY understand or grasp. The bible says "God's ways our not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts." The concept of the Trinity is just another one of those questions I'll be asking Him when I get to Heaven, next to "Why is my hair different?" heheheh For now, I have complete PEACE knowing God's word is true, and what he say's is true.DelightfulFlame
New Member
So here's what I got from the scriptures and the postings and some other sites. This is my interpretation. I'm going to try to keep it simple b/c it can get so confusing. I do not believe that scripture supports a Trinity.
*God is the Father. He is the SOURCE. He is THE God. He doesn't have a God besides Himself. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Isaiah 44:8)
*Jesus, the Son, is the PATH or the WAY to God. All things were made THROUGH Jesus. (Colossians 14-17, 1 Cor 8:6)
It's kindof like me being human. We wouldn't expect my mom, being human, to have a cat for a daughter. So why would we expect God, being God, not to have a God for a son? So Jesus is man and God.
*Is Jesus God? Yes. (Phil. 2:6, Heb 1:8)
*Is Jesus the Father? No. Jesus, unlike God, has a God- the Father. Jesus called the Father the one true, good God. (John 17:3, Mark 10:18, 1 Cor 15:21-28)
*So then we tackle the scripture, John 1:1. The word was with God and the word was God. Yes. But it was not the Father. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God, but Jesus is not/was not the Father.
*Jesus does the Father's will. I haven't read of the Father doing Jesus's will.
*From what I can tell, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and the Father. (John 14:23) It is not a 3rd, separate person. It is the Spirit of Truth, and Jesus said the He was the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, John 16:13-15; John 14:18, John 14:20, John 14:26-27, John 16:7)
*Do we worship Jesus? He was worshipped in the bible. (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 15:25)
*God is the Father. He is the SOURCE. He is THE God. He doesn't have a God besides Himself. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim. 2:5, Isaiah 44:8)
*Jesus, the Son, is the PATH or the WAY to God. All things were made THROUGH Jesus. (Colossians 14-17, 1 Cor 8:6)
It's kindof like me being human. We wouldn't expect my mom, being human, to have a cat for a daughter. So why would we expect God, being God, not to have a God for a son? So Jesus is man and God.
*Is Jesus God? Yes. (Phil. 2:6, Heb 1:8)
*Is Jesus the Father? No. Jesus, unlike God, has a God- the Father. Jesus called the Father the one true, good God. (John 17:3, Mark 10:18, 1 Cor 15:21-28)
*So then we tackle the scripture, John 1:1. The word was with God and the word was God. Yes. But it was not the Father. Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God, but Jesus is not/was not the Father.
*Jesus does the Father's will. I haven't read of the Father doing Jesus's will.
*From what I can tell, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and the Father. (John 14:23) It is not a 3rd, separate person. It is the Spirit of Truth, and Jesus said the He was the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, John 16:13-15; John 14:18, John 14:20, John 14:26-27, John 16:7)
*Do we worship Jesus? He was worshipped in the bible. (Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 15:25)
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Well DelightfulFlame...if you don't believe in God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit...then let it be your belief. I tried to breakdown those verses for you. Are you just posting scriptures to try to show how confusing the Bible is or are you trying to understand them? The Bible mentions God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit several times. That is all that is meant by the term trinity.
stcsweet
New Member
DelightfulFlame said:
This actually supports the Trinity. There is a single God - that was never the issue.
DelightfulFlame said:
The complete text of 1Cor 8:6 states:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Scripture uses the terms God and Lord interchangeably. The Father is called both 'God' and 'Lord', and the Son is referred to by both terms. Therefore, this verse described two of the persons of our single God.
DelightfulFlame said:
Correct. This supports the Trinity, as well. God is one and has 3 distinct persons, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.
DelightfulFlame said:
The complete text of John 17:3 states:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
If Jesus' reference to the Father as "the only true God" were meant to exclude the Son from deity, then the same principle of interpretation would have to apply to Jude 4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
where Jesus Christ is called "our only Master and Lord". This would have to exclude the Father from Lordship and Mastership. Also, the Holy Spirit is called "Lord" at 2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Therefore, in these 3 examples, the world "only" does not rule out any of the 3 persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) of our single God.
DelightfulFlame said:
Correct. This supports the Trinity, as well. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, and neither of them is the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son (Jesus) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God...a single God, with 3 distinct persons.
DelightfulFlame said:
Me, either.
DelightfulFlame said:
I don't see proof in those scriptures that the Holy Spirit is not a person of God. Again, read Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back
some of the price of the land?
"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own?
And after it was sold, was it not under your control?
Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God."
Who did Ananias lie to? Peter says the Holy Spirit; God.
You can't lie to a force, but you can lie to a person - a person of our single God
DelightfulFlame said:
Please clarify the relevance of this comment to whether or not a trinity exists.DelightfulFlame
New Member
stcsweet said:This actually supports the Trinity. There is a single God - that was never the issue.
But I don't see a single God. I see God, the Father. And I see Jesus, also God, the Son. I don't see them as the same God. They are separate.
The complete text of 1Cor 8:6 states:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Scripture uses the terms God and Lord interchangeably. The Father is called both 'God' and 'Lord', and the Son is referred to by both terms. Therefore, this verse described two of the persons of our single God.
Yes, the Father is called God and Lord. And Jesus is called God and Lord. But Jesus is never called the Father. And the Father is never called Jesus.
Correct. This supports the Trinity, as well. God is one and has 3 distinct persons, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.
Do you see the Holy Spirit as a separate being? I see it as the Spirit of God and Jesus. Thus it is not separate.
The complete text of John 17:3 states:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
If Jesus' reference to the Father as "the only true God" were meant to exclude the Son from deity, then the same principle of interpretation would have to apply to Jude 4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
How? I don't think it excludes Jesus. Jesus is God. But Jesus is NOT the Father. To get to the Father, you have to go through the Master and Lord, Jesus.
where Jesus Christ is called "our only Master and Lord". This would have to exclude the Father from Lordship and Mastership. Also, the Holy Spirit is called "Lord" at 2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Therefore, in these 3 examples, the world "only" does not rule out any of the 3 persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) of our single God.
Correct. This supports the Trinity, as well. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, and neither of them is the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son (Jesus) is God, and the Holy Spirit is God...a single God, with 3 distinct persons.
I don't see that. I see the Father and the Son. They both make up the Holy Spirit. Thus I see 2 separate entities, not 3.
Me, either.
I don't see proof in those scriptures that the Holy Spirit is not a person of God. Again, read Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back
some of the price of the land?
"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own?
And after it was sold, was it not under your control?
Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God."
Who did Ananias lie to? Peter says the Holy Spirit; God.
You can't lie to a force, but you can lie to a person - a person of our single God
agreed.
The comment about worship was in reference to my earlier post when I didn't know who to pray to, and what the significance was of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. How do we relate to them, etc.
DelightfulFlame
New Member
Poohbear said:Well DelightfulFlame...if you don't believe in God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit...then let it be your belief. I tried to breakdown those verses for you. Are you just posting scriptures to try to show how confusing the Bible is or are you trying to understand them? The Bible mentions God as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit several times. That is all that is meant by the term trinity.
Thanks Poohbear for posting your breakdowns. I just don't see what you see in some of them. I never post scripture just for the sake of posting. Yes, I try to understand them. I guess we get different things out of them. Thanks again.
DelightfulFlame
New Member
stcsweet said:Just confirming, do you see 2 gods, instead of a single God?
Yep. I think I do. They have the same goals. But one is the source (Father) and the other is the way (Son).
