Reclaiming our Bodies--re-thinking modesty

[aribell]

Thanks for the great discussion ladies.

Dicapr's comments below reflect a lot of what caused me to start the thread in the first place. Modesty is a real virtue. Women do have a responsibility to both dress modestly and to not unduly cause their brothers to stumble. Buuuut, men--even Christian men--seem to feel entitled to lust after and judge women, their sisters in Christ, without examining themselves as closely as they're examining the women in front of them. They probably aren't challenged as deeply because the church is largely run by men. And I think that to some extent we as women play into a less-than godly attitude on the part of men by internalizing these comments.

I think that there's real practical wisdom in understanding that right or wrong, if you dress a certain way, men are going to think certain things. And I don't think we should do anything out of rebellion; but maybe we can just be more aware that everything that men are saying, even in the church, isn't necessarily what Jesus thinks or would say.

We need to know that our virtue comes from being daughters of the King who never has questions about our worth, regardless of what we happen to be wearing at the time. Where a worldly masculinity says that a woman has to show herself worthy of a man or else he's at liberty to treat her as nothing, our God is the one who sent Hosea after Gomer--a prostitute--time and time again. He's the one that sent Christ after a tarnished bride. There aren't "good girls" and "bad girls" in God's sight. We are prizes to Him. We need to honor him in our bodies, clothe ourselves with humility, and still at the end of the day know that we aren't seeking the approval of men but of God.

This is the attitude that some men have. The sad thing is that we as women continue to accept that this is o.k. and actually believe that they are in some way showing approval for those of us who are modest. However, this is the belief of men who truly have NO respect for women. They believe that according to how they dress they have the right to treat women as less than human. While the woman believes that the man is genuinely interested in a relationship the man is trying to find a way to victimize them. I'm sorry, having sex with someone just because they look easy is low and shows that you have little respect for them or yourself. After they finish disrespecting women they deem as unworthy because they are showing cleavage or maybe their dress is too short they then move on. The feel somehow they deserve better than the females they are treating as objects. So they look for modest christian woman to marry. Why would we want to marry someone like that? How is that any less offensive than what they have been doing to the "unmodest" women? They actually think that they deserve someone who they feel has not been used and abused. They seem to forget that they were the ones using. So they offer us them. How are they any different than the women that they have been dating? A true man, a christian man, tries to help the problem rather than looking for ways to exploit someone they believe is weak. A man once told me that if you treat a woman like a lady she will rise to the occasion. We need more men like that. They could show these women that they deserve to be respected regardless to how she is dressed. By showing them a different way of being they could help the women realize that they are more than just a sex object. Once this is accomplished, they will act and dress differenetly. Instead, women keep telling themselves that we should accept these no good men who made it a practice of dogging women like they are some sort of prize. It may be how men feel, but we as women need to stop validating their feelings.

Why would I accentuate my figure? For ME! There is a misconception that the only reason a woman would want to dress attractively and show her shape is to somehow attract a man. This is not always the case-sometimes a woman is just proud she has lost weight. Maybe she has been having a hard day, week, ect and dressing up and looking good to herself is helping her get through her day. Sometimes women are not thinking about men. Sometimes a women gets tired of feeling as if something is wrong because she is shaped like a woman. I believe in modesty. However, I was made to feel ashamed at a young age because I am naturally curvy and have a womanly figure. I have curvy legs, small waist, wide hips, and a large chest. I cannot cover this up. I have tried and was left looking and feeling sloppy and unkept. I wear clothes that fit-and yes they reveal that I am a woman. I wear my arms out because I sweat like a man and this cuts down on embarassing sweat rings. Someone else would think that I was trying to be sexy and revealing. You can tell by the way a woman carries herself her true intentions.

 

[SND411]

Thanks for the great discussion ladies.

Dicapr's comments below reflect a lot of what caused me to start the thread in the first place. Modesty is a real virtue. Women do have a responsibility to both dress modestly and to not unduly cause their brothers to stumble. Buuuut, men--even Christian men--seem to feel entitled to lust after and judge women, their sisters in Christ, without examining themselves as closely as they're examining the women in front of them. They probably aren't challenged as deeply because the church is largely run by men. And I think that to some extent we as women play into a less-than godly attitude on the part of men by internalizing these comments.

I think that there's real practical wisdom in understanding that right or wrong, if you dress a certain way, men are going to think certain things. And I don't think we should do anything out of rebellion; but maybe we can just be more aware that everything that men are saying, even in the church, isn't necessarily what Jesus thinks or would say.

We need to know that our virtue comes from being daughters of the King who never has questions about our worth, regardless of what we happen to be wearing at the time. Where a worldly masculinity says that a woman has to show herself worthy of a man or else he's at liberty to treat her as nothing, our God is the one who sent Hosea after Gomer--a prostitute--time and time again. He's the one that sent Christ after a tarnished bride. There aren't "good girls" and "bad girls" in God's sight. We are prizes to Him. We need to honor him in our bodies, clothe ourselves with humility, and still at the end of the day know that we aren't seeking the approval of men but of God.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Another question: Is it right for me to ask a Christian brother to NOT take off his shirt/go shirtless since it could be tempting for me?

 

[aribell]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Another question: Is it right for me to ask a Christian brother to NOT take off his shirt/go shirtless since it could be tempting for me?

^^^^Personally, I find it quite distracting...

 

[Poohbear]

This is the attitude that some men have. The sad thing is that we as women continue to accept that this is o.k. and actually believe that they are in some way showing approval for those of us who are modest. However, this is the belief of men who truly have NO respect for women. They believe that according to how they dress they have the right to treat women as less than human. While the woman believes that the man is genuinely interested in a relationship the man is trying to find a way to victimize them. I'm sorry, having sex with someone just because they look easy is low and shows that you have little respect for them or yourself. After they finish disrespecting women they deem as unworthy because they are showing cleavage or maybe their dress is too short they then move on. The feel somehow they deserve better than the females they are treating as objects. So they look for modest christian woman to marry. Why would we want to marry someone like that? How is that any less offensive than what they have been doing to the "unmodest" women? They actually think that they deserve someone who they feel has not been used and abused. They seem to forget that they were the ones using. So they offer us them. How are they any different than the women that they have been dating? A true man, a christian man, tries to help the problem rather than looking for ways to exploit someone they believe is weak. A man once told me that if you treat a woman like a lady she will rise to the occasion. We need more men like that. They could show these women that they deserve to be respected regardless to how she is dressed. By showing them a different way of being they could help the women realize that they are more than just a sex object. Once this is accomplished, they will act and dress differenetly. Instead, women keep telling themselves that we should accept these no good men who made it a practice of dogging women like they are some sort of prize. It may be how men feel, but we as women need to stop validating their feelings.

The bold really disturbed me. How can someone in one breath admit a woman is degrading herself by wearing revealing clothing, and in the next sentence admit to wanting to take advantage of that person. If dressing immorally = bad, why on earth would you be receptive to that behavior at all?

With all due respect, your boyfriend's response reminds me why the world is so depraved. It should not matter what a woman wears, a true Christian man, or any man for that matter, should never deem a person made in the image of God as an object. I believe in dressing conservatively because I would to do this for Jesus, whom I love dearly, and not to prevent some man from seeing me as a quick f***.

I definitely feel where you both are coming from. It was quite disturbing to me to hear him say that with him being my boyfriend. He used to be very promiscuous and that's just how he explained some mens' view on how a woman dresses herself. Yeah, it is wrong for a man to degrade a woman or treat her wrong because of the way she looks, but that's why God has these standards that we ought to follow, both men and women.

 

[KnottyGurl]

Poohbear, I agree with the highlighted.

I feel that even if others (men) aren't following the standards, aren't living or thinking the way they should, we still have a responsibility to live, dress and think the way we should. The standards God has laid out for us are still the standards and do not change or hold exceptions if/because Jack, Johnnie and Pookie Ray aren't doing it too.

Also, to a previous post, if you're living by God's Word, you won't have to worry about getting used/abused/hurt because He'll only allow good, holy men to interest you.

I definitely feel where you both are coming from. It was quite disturbing to me to hear him say that with him being my boyfriend. He used to be very promiscuous and that's just how he explained some mens' view on how a woman dresses herself. Yeah, it is wrong for a man to degrade a woman or treat her wrong because of the way she looks, but that's why God has these standards that we ought to follow, both men and women.

 

[divya]

This is the attitude that some men have. The sad thing is that we as women continue to accept that this is o.k. and actually believe that they are in some way showing approval for those of us who are modest. However, this is the belief of men who truly have NO respect for women. They believe that according to how they dress they have the right to treat women as less than human. While the woman believes that the man is genuinely interested in a relationship the man is trying to find a way to victimize them. I'm sorry, having sex with someone just because they look easy is low and shows that you have little respect for them or yourself. After they finish disrespecting women they deem as unworthy because they are showing cleavage or maybe their dress is too short they then move on. The feel somehow they deserve better than the females they are treating as objects. So they look for modest christian woman to marry. Why would we want to marry someone like that? How is that any less offensive than what they have been doing to the "unmodest" women? They actually think that they deserve someone who they feel has not been used and abused. They seem to forget that they were the ones using. So they offer us them. How are they any different than the women that they have been dating? A true man, a christian man, tries to help the problem rather than looking for ways to exploit someone they believe is weak. A man once told me that if you treat a woman like a lady she will rise to the occasion. We need more men like that. They could show these women that they deserve to be respected regardless to how she is dressed. By showing them a different way of being they could help the women realize that they are more than just a sex object. Once this is accomplished, they will act and dress differenetly. Instead, women keep telling themselves that we should accept these no good men who made it a practice of dogging women like they are some sort of prize. It may be how men feel, but we as women need to stop validating their feelings.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just had to quote this again!

 

[SND411]

Poohbear, I agree with the highlighted.

I feel that even if others (men) aren't following the standards, aren't living or thinking the way they should, we still have a responsibility to live, dress and think the way we should. The standards God has laid out for us are still the standards and do not change or hold exceptions if/because Jack, Johnnie and Pookie Ray aren't doing it too. If you're living by God's Word, you won't have to worry about getting used/abused/hurt because He'll only allow good, holy men to interest you.

Same could be said for Christian men:

Even if others (women) aren't following the standards of dressing modestly or behaving the way they should, men still have the responsibility to RESPECT a woman the way they should.

 

[KnottyGurl]

I agree. But the point I was making is that regardless of your gender, you are responsible for the things you do. Using "Well so and so isn't doing it" as a reason why you aren't doing what you're supposed to do does not cut it. If you are, then why are you so surprised at attracting/choosing destructive men?

Let's be realistic. People should be following the bible to a "T", but that's not happening and probably never will. That's why we're all sinners. That's life. Find, be around and focus on people who think like you or are where you want to be, and don't let the actions of the unjust dictate yours.

Same could be said for Christian men:

Even if others (women) aren't following the standards of dressing modestly or behaving the way they should, men still have the responsibility to RESPECT a woman the way they should.

 

[Laela]

Well said...

2 Corinthians 6:3 - "We put no stumbling block in anyone’s path, so that our ministry will not be discredited...

This is not only for our brothers sake but our own. It assists us in living a holy lifestyle so that the word of God (His ministry through us) is not discredited.

Helping our brothers avoid lustful thoughts is not the only reason for modest dressing. What we value we cover up and protect. We are all representatives of Christ and should strive to carry ourselves in a way that He is glorified- setting us apart from the world.

We should not only be modest in dress, but behaviour and conversation ... so the above only deals with a small portion of it.

 

[Shimmie]

Let me tell all of you something as well:

In Saudi Arabia, all the women are required to wear the burqa. Look it up if you do not know what it is. Yet, Saudi Arabia is one of the highest buyers of pornography in the world. Hmmmm................tell me what is interesting about this???

Again, you raise some excellent points to reflect upon.

As for the Middle Eastern men and pornography...

It's just that. A naked woman (or half naked or immodestly dressed) is considered pornographic. Men will 'Always' have their sex drive. A modestly dressed woman is considered one who respects her 'virtue', and those who dress 'less' are the ones considered without virtue and are giving men 'permission' to look upon them as such.

In Egypt a woman can be arrested (and they are) for performing Middle Eastern Dance (Belly Dance) OR if they dance without a 'Belly Cover'.

What's sad is that here in the US, women are actually wearing Belly Dance Costumes (of the Bare Designs) out to Dinner. No joke! And they think it's cute. What's really happening is that women are simply THAT Desperate for attention.

My brother in law used to be a 'Trucker' (he drove the big 18 wheelers) all over the country for his step fathers company. He shared a lot of stories with us about his trips and many were wonderful adventures.

However, he also shared the horrors / the not so nice scenes of his travels... the prostitutes who frequented the truck stops or the delivery 'drop off' stops for "business' . Anyhoo, New York was among the worst, for the women became so competitive that skimpy clothing wasn't enough. There were street corners where many of them would 'bare all'... they were naked. Yeah... naked! He wasn't lying about it. The women were literally naked, because they were desperate for 'takers'.

You know.......... Common sense, just plain ole common sense tells us that what we value, we guard and protect. If if value my body, then I am not going to parade it half naked (or naked) before anyone except my husband. What on earth would I display myself to all to see?

It has nothing to do with what anyone thinks, more than it has to do with what I value of myself as a woman. And the same goes for men. They need to guard the gift that God has given them as well.

I don't need to see their 'imprints' because they are wearing their pants too tight. You're gonna look; how can you help but not notice if something down there is bulging out. It's right there staring at you, even in your periphreal view. And indeed you will look away and avoid looking, however the imprint of the image is still there in your brain.

The point I'm trying to make is that we should not make it hard for men to focus on virtue, neither should they make it hard for us as women. We all have imprints that only our husband or in a man's case, his wife should see.

Now I'm laughing at what I just posted....

But I hope someone gets my point. We need to be mindful of imprints.

 

[CoilyFields]

Perhaps so much attention/responsibility is placed on women because we have lots of parts that it has become acceptable to display?

Cuz I don't know about anyone else but men in these parts dont wear tight pants that would outline their "packages" and I have never caught myself checking for that anyways lol. Im much more likely to wonder about their comforatbility and avoid looking if a man had on pants that tight. Also men rarely go shirtless. So their clothing is not revealing "sexual" body parts the way ours do.

Thats probebely why the focus is on us.

But like I said before: Its BOTH of our responsibilities to check our clothing and our lustful thoughts and looks! (just more often its women who need to check their clothes and men who need to check their looks...both need to check our hearts because from it flows the issues of life)

 

[SND411]

Again, you raise some excellent points to reflect upon.

As for the Middle Eastern men and pornography...

It's just that. A naked woman (or half naked or immodestly dressed) is considered pornographic. Men will 'Always' have their sex drive. A modestly dressed woman is considered one who respects her 'virtue', and those who dress 'less' are the ones considered without virtue and are giving men 'permission' to look upon them as such.

In Egypt a woman can be arrested (and they are) for performing Middle Eastern Dance (Belly Dance) OR if they dance without a 'Belly Cover'.

What's sad is that here in the US, women are actually wearing Belly Dance Costumes (of the Bare Designs) out to Dinner. No joke! And they think it's cute. What's really happening is that women are simply THAT Desperate for attention.

My brother in law used to be a 'Trucker' (he drove the big 18 wheelers) all over the country for his step fathers company. He shared a lot of stories with us about his trips and many were wonderful adventures.

However, he also shared the horrors / the not so nice scenes of his travels... the prostitutes who frequented the truck stops or the delivery 'drop off' stops for "business' . Anyhoo, New York was among the worst, for the women became so competitive that skimpy clothing wasn't enough. There were street corners where many of them would 'bare all'... they were naked. Yeah... naked! He wasn't lying about it. The women were literally naked, because they were desperate for 'takers'.

You know.......... Common sense, just plain ole common sense tells us that what we value, we guard and protect. If if value my body, then I am not going to parade it half naked (or naked) before anyone except my husband. What on earth would I display myself to all to see?

It has nothing to do with what anyone thinks, more than it has to do with what I value of myself as a woman. And the same goes for men. They need to guard the gift that God has given them as well.

I don't need to see their 'imprints' because they are wearing their pants too tight. You're gonna look; how can you help but not notice if something down there is bulging out. It's right there staring at you, even in your periphreal view. And indeed you will look away and avoid looking, however the imprint of the image is still there in your brain.

The point I'm trying to make is that we should not make it hard for men to focus on virtue, neither should they make it hard for us as women. We all have imprints that only our husband or in a man's case, his wife should see.

Now I'm laughing at what I just posted....

But I hope someone gets my point. We need to be mindful of imprints.

I don't think you understood the main point of my post....

 

[SND411]

Basically, the main point of my "Saudi Arabia" example is to demonstrate that modesty does not make men value women anymore than immodesty causes men to degrade women, whom are also made in the image of God, to mere objects. Women in Saudi Arabian society are constantly expected to dress in such a way that protects their image and their body. Yet many of the men purposefully go out of their way to seek immoral images of women on the internet. It goes to show that even in a society where modesty is the norm, people will still lust after that which is wrong. Lust does NOT stem from what someone is wearing. Like Jesus said, it comes from the heart. If you have a lustful heart, it does not matter if all the women in your life dress modestly. You will go out and SEEK material/prostitutes/whatever to satisfy your heart's desires.

This is why I feel it is NEVER the responsiblity of a woman to make sure a "brother" does not lust. If it is in his heart, he will do it anyway, even to the point of "undressing you with his eyes" or imagining you naked in his bed.

 

[SND411]

One more thing:

From reading the Bible, I have deduced that the main reason women are to dress modestly is to be a constant reminder that their worth and "beauty" come from their HEART alone. Instead of people judging you by your clothes, make-up, jewelery, etc, they will have no choice but to focus on your conduct, love for your enemies, love for the strangers, and good works in general. This way, you would be a "soldier for Christ" without needing to carry a literal shield or sword. A simple outfit would suffice.

Unfortunately, men in the church have made this about THEM primarily. They think we dress modestly to help them out, when in fact, it's suppose to help OUR soul first and foremost.

 

[Shimmie]

I don't think you understood the main point of my post....

Basically, the main point of my "Saudi Arabia" example is to demonstrate that modesty does not make men value women anymore than immodesty causes men to degrade women, whom are also made in the image of God, to mere objects.

Women in Saudi Arabian society are constantly expected to dress in such a way that protects their image and their body.

Yet many of the men purposefully go out of their way to seek immoral images of women on the internet. It goes to show that even in a society where modesty is the norm, people will still lust after that which is wrong.

Lust does NOT stem from what someone is wearing.

Like Jesus said, it comes from the heart. If you have a lustful heart, it does not matter if all the women in your life dress modestly. You will go out and SEEK material/prostitutes/whatever to satisfy your heart's desires.

This is why I feel it is NEVER the responsiblity of a woman to make sure a "brother" does not lust. If it is in his heart, he will do it anyway, even to the point of "undressing you with his eyes" or imagining you naked in his bed.

One more thing:

From reading the Bible, I have deduced that the main reason women are to dress modestly is to be a constant reminder that their worth and "beauty" come from their HEART alone.

Instead of people judging you by your clothes, make-up, jewelery, etc, they will have no choice but to focus on your conduct, love for your enemies, love for the strangers, and good works in general. This way, you would be a "soldier for Christ" without needing to carry a literal shield or sword. A simple outfit would suffice.

Unfortunately, men in the church have made this about THEM primarily. They think we dress modestly to help them out, when in fact, it's suppose to help OUR soul first and foremost.

I understood your post quite clearly.

Let's understand something, no matter what's in a man's heart, there are still visuals and verbals which can and WILL stimulate his sexual desires.

With the Middle Eastern example you've shared, these men are not looking at the modestly dressed women as pornographic beings, they are searching outside of them. A naked man or woman is just that 'naked' and it brings on sexual arousal. That's how God designed us.

As for the men in Church who primarily place the responsibility upon woman and their attire:

You stated that lust does not stem from what someone is wearing.

Men are visually stimulated; that's their make-up. It's not going to change. The outward appearance of a woman and her anatomy will stimulate a man sexually. There are relentless Women in Church and out of Church who KNOW this and they use it quite effectively to get attention from men.

Sex is one of the most used strategies to get 'attention' and attention it gets. AND WOMEN KNOW IT !

We are not going to get away with 'what difference does it make' for no matter what a woman wears, men are still 'men', they will still lust.

Please! Hang that theory on a feather and see how long it holds up.

They may not 'lust', but they can still be sexually stimulated by what a woman is wearing or 'not' or accentuates.

What we wear speaks volumes and it does speak what is in our hearts. Clothing speaks a language, be it a suit to the office, or thong in the bedroom. When someone wears something see through, it brings full attention to what's in view. It's a fact of life.

Women know exactly what they are doing when they wear certain garments (be it in Church, at work, or wherever) and nobody's stupid, she's exposed... both her accentuated body part(s) AND her heart... meaning her objective. She is looking for attention. Women who are insecure about who they are inwardly fall upon their external features to be noticed.

How we dress DOES matter.

The men in Saudi Arabia are proving just that. They look to the less clad or nil in clothing and virtue for sexual disfunctions.

Overhere in the US, I wouldn't be suprised if porn went out of business, it's already a 'free enterprise' freely given by women here who refuse to cover themselves in descent attire. It's a free for all. The vast diseases, sexual calamities, gender dysfunctions, and God knows what else is porn culture all in itself. And the manner of clothing is book, chapter and verse that expresses it all.

Total disregard for what God intended for our hearts to speak.

 

[CoilyFields]

So do you ladies disagree with any of the following comments:

1. We are able to be stumbling blocks for others.
2. Therefore it is our repsonsibility to do our utmost within reasonable boundaries to prevent this.
3. Men are visually stimulated much moreso than women
4. We know that our society relies on sex in almost every medium to communicate messeges to us.
To women : be beautiful and sexy, invest money in your outter appearance to feel good about yourself. When men fall all over you and women want to be you, you are IT!!!!
To men: There is nothing wrong with lusting after a woman...its your duty as a heterosexual man. Shes showing it because she wants you to look.

5. the lines of modesty have been blurred by fashion and that we see so many images on tv and in real life of immodest dress that it has become the norm.
6. ONce again, it is the responsibility of both parties to ensure that the sin of lust (doing and inciting) cannot be laid at their feet.
7. If you truly have a heart to not incite lust and yield yourself to the guidance of the Holy Spirit you can be blameless in this area (without wearing a burka lol).


OT: but am I the only one who has noticed tons of sitcoms where the husband/guy is average looking or downright big but the wives/women are always slender and very pretty? Dogone double standard! I have yet to see the opposite (even the show ugly betty...shes not ugly, just has an unfortunate fashion sense)

 

[aribell]

One more thing:

From reading the Bible, I have deduced that the main reason women are to dress modestly is to be a constant reminder that their worth and "beauty" come from their HEART alone. Instead of people judging you by your clothes, make-up, jewelery, etc, they will have no choice but to focus on your conduct, love for your enemies, love for the strangers, and good works in general. This way, you would be a "soldier for Christ" without needing to carry a literal shield or sword. A simple outfit would suffice.

Unfortunately, men in the church have made this about THEM primarily. They think we dress modestly to help them out, when in fact, it's suppose to help OUR soul first and foremost.

Basically, the main point of my "Saudi Arabia" example is to demonstrate that modesty does not make men value women anymore than immodesty causes men to degrade women, whom are also made in the image of God, to mere objects. Women in Saudi Arabian society are constantly expected to dress in such a way that protects their image and their body. Yet many of the men purposefully go out of their way to seek immoral images of women on the internet. It goes to show that even in a society where modesty is the norm, people will still lust after that which is wrong. Lust does NOT stem from what someone is wearing. Like Jesus said, it comes from the heart. If you have a lustful heart, it does not matter if all the women in your life dress modestly. You will go out and SEEK material/prostitutes/whatever to satisfy your heart's desires.

This is why I feel it is NEVER the responsiblity of a woman to make sure a "brother" does not lust. If it is in his heart, he will do it anyway, even to the point of "undressing you with his eyes" or imagining you naked in his bed.

I think that also, where women are constantly being told to cover themselves so that men are not tempted, the message is clearly sent to men that it's only perfectly natural and unavoidable for them to lust after a woman's body. Regardless of how men are wired, this is not okay. I believe the high incidence of pornography usage in Saudi Arabia implies that the men generally have less respect for women and that women have essentially remained objects of their gratification, despite the outward appearance of respect by covering. Given the social context, that isn't surprising. It's not about whether they are lusting after any particular woman based on what she is or isn't wearing, but how they have learned to view women overall. A high level of respect for all women will translate to respect for particular women, even if they aren't respecting themselves at the time. (but more on that in the next post!) Sometimes I think that we forget that someone disrespecting themselves does not mean that we then are excused to disrespect them too.

 

[dicapr]

So do you ladies disagree with any of the following comments:

1. We are able to be stumbling blocks for others. We can be a stumbling block for others, however, they must already be struggling with the sin. I don't like caramel. So there is nothing anyone can do to entice me or cause me to want caramel. If a man or woman does not have a lustful heart you cannot entice them to lust.
2. Therefore it is our repsonsibility to do our utmost within reasonable boundaries to prevent this. What is reasonable to one person/culture is not reasonable to another. I dress modestly to please God, not to prevent men from lusting. My modesty may serve a dual purpose, but my objective is to please the Lord.
3. Men are visually stimulated much moreso than women So we have been told. Alot of women are stimulated visually. We just don't have the excuse that it is in our nature. We recongnize we need to check our behavior (for me LL Cool J in NCIS in those super tight shirts ) but even christian society believes that somehow men cannot help themselves. Is God asking men to do something they are incapable of doing?
4. We know that our society relies on sex in almost every medium to communicate messeges to us.
To women : be beautiful and sexy, invest money in your outter appearance to feel good about yourself. When men fall all over you and women want to be you, you are IT!!!!
To men: There is nothing wrong with lusting after a woman...its your duty as a heterosexual man. Shes showing it because she wants you to look.
Yes society sends this image. Does it make it right? Is it fair that everything about women has been sexualized. Our hair, lips, neck, shoulders, breast, waist, hips, butts, thighs, legs, feet are all "sexy"? What's left?
5. the lines of modesty have been blurred by fashion and that we see so many images on tv and in real life of immodest dress that it has become the norm. Modesty is determined by society. What is modest now would be shamefully immodest at the turn of the 20th century. Showing your ankles was "fast". If the middle ages cleavage ruled but if a man saw your ankles it was the same as seeing you naked. That's why classic novels always have women twisting their ankles and them having to be examined by a potential suitor. Those in a society know where the grey areas are and what crosses the line. We cannot compare modesty of 50 years ago to modesty today. As christian women we are to stay away from the line between o.k. and sexy and revealing. How far we wander into the grey area is left to the Holy Spirit.
6. ONce again, it is the responsibility of both parties to ensure that the sin of lust (doing and inciting) cannot be laid at their feet. Our responsibility is not to knowing entice someone to sin. I can be covered but if someone has a foot fetish my open toes sandles might cause them to lust even though I have modest dress that covers and is not too tight. We can not account for all the variables. What I am not to do is to not put myself in the position to advertise to society at large that I want to be lusted after. However, I do not have the power to control someone's thoughts or actions. There is nothing I can humanly do to keep a man from lusting after me if their is lust in his heart.
7. If you truly have a heart to not incite lust and yield yourself to the guidance of the Holy Spirit you can be blameless in this area (without wearing a burka lol). True!



OT: but am I the only one who has noticed tons of sitcoms where the husband/guy is average looking or downright big but the wives/women are always slender and very pretty? Dogone double standard! I have yet to see the opposite (even the show ugly betty...shes not ugly, just has an unfortunate fashion sense)

My answers are in bold!

 

[SND411]

[/COLOR]

With the Middle Eastern example you've shared, these men are not looking at the modestly dressed women as pornographic beings, they are searching outside of them. A naked man or woman is just that 'naked' and it brings on sexual arousal. That's how God designed us.

What causes these men to search outside of the modestly dressed women? It seems the harder we as women try to keep men from lusting after our bodies, the harder men will find another outlet to do so anyway. God NEVER designed us to degrade fellow human beings. Plus, many of these men still view women in burqa as sexual objects. Just objects that need to be covered lest a man is FORCED to rape her.


Men are visually stimulated; that's their make-up. It's not going to change. The outward appearance of a woman and her anatomy will stimulate a man sexually. There are relentless Women in Church and out of Church who KNOW this and they use it quite effectively to get attention from men.

Countless scientific studies on the human brain have proven that women are indeed more visual than men. Ironic, huh? I refuse to believe that women are walking temptresses with the constant intent to lead men away. Women who go out of their way to seek attention need to understand that this is wrong and pathetic. I agree there. But how do we know what EVERY women is thinking/trying to do? Some may not know whether this skirt or this blouse will stimulate this man or that man.

Sex is one of the most used strategies to get 'attention' and attention it gets. AND WOMEN KNOW IT !

Women, since the beginning, have been told that our sexuality = our worth.

We are not going to get away with 'what difference does it make' for no matter what a woman wears, men are still 'men', they will still lust.

Please! Hang that theory on a feather and see how long it holds up.

There is no theory. Many "modest" women experience sexual harassment everyday no matter what they wear.

Responses in bold blue.

 

[Shimmie]

So do you ladies disagree with any of the following comments:

1. We are able to be stumbling blocks for others.

Answer: Yes

2. Therefore it is our repsonsibility to do our utmost within reasonable boundaries to prevent this.

Answer: Yes

3. Men are visually stimulated much moreso than women

Answer: Indeed yes; they are 'wired' this way.

4. We know that our society relies on sex in almost every medium to communicate messeges to us.

To women : be beautiful and sexy, invest money in your outter appearance to feel good about yourself. When men fall all over you and women want to be you, you are IT!!!!

Answer: True

To men: There is nothing wrong with lusting after a woman...its your duty as a heterosexual man. Shes showing it because she wants you to look.

Answer: A sad truth. If a boy 'scores' with a girl, he gets a pat on the back or gets to move on with another. The girl gets a bad reputation, or worse. pregnant, and/or diseased then abandoned. (Evidence: Read the threads).

5. the lines of modesty have been blurred by fashion and that we see so many images on tv and in real life of immodest dress that it has become the norm.

Answer: Yep

6. ONce again, it is the responsibility of both parties to ensure that the sin of lust (doing and inciting) cannot be laid at their feet.

Answer: Yes it is INDEED the repsonsibility of both. Men must also raise their sons to respect women and themselves and each other's virtue.

7. If you truly have a heart to not incite lust and yield yourself to the guidance of the Holy Spirit you can be blameless in this area (without wearing a burka lol).

Answer: But of course. And I actually have a burka. It was a Christmas gift from a friend who lives in Egypt.

OT: but am I the only one who has noticed tons of sitcoms where the husband/guy is average looking or downright big but the wives/women are always slender and very pretty? Dogone double standard! I have yet to see the opposite (even the show ugly betty...shes not ugly, just has an unfortunate fashion sense)

Regarding the sitcom theory:

There are very, very, VERY few actresses who would be caught on worldwide TV looking anything but slender and pretty. Films live forever and their image is a matter of life and death to them. It is.

I totally agree that it a doggone double standard. It is. Women have been so conditioned about their outter appearence being the 'key' to love and acceptance that it's taken on the face of a monster.

Women have become so competitive that they have literally gone to extremes to outdo the other.

Cher began with her bare bottom costumes on stage. She was outrageous. Madonna was no virgin in her attire. I remember a 'flyaway' see through dress that Jennifer Lopez wore a few years back at an awards show and it brought forth national attention. After that, other female celebities were following suit. Toni Braxton wore a dress that was made of fabric bands barely covering her bare minierals. Then Halle Berry wore a gown which gave way to the see through. The gown was indeed beautiful, but it was way too sheer for public display.

In the Dance Community, the costumes that I see the Dancers perform in are just plain ridiculous ! And they're all competing to be seen. Just Dance for Heaven's sake. Let the gift of Dance be displayed, not their nasty body parts. Nobody wants to see that mess onstage.

Sex in it's truest form is Beautiful; absolutely beautiful and it doesn't have to be sold nor used for selling. It's a beautiful gift from God that is between a man and his wife to be cherished and enjoyed and honoured.

Yet it's been so cheapened by those who lack beauty within themselves and love for themselves. It's a shame, too. For they are missing one of the most beautiful gifts of life.

Tis All... :Rose:

:thatsall:

 

[SND411]

Does anyone find it curious that Jesus NEVER mentioned a woman's attire when He told the men not to lust after a woman in his heart?....

 

[SND411]

[/COLOR]

Overhere in the US, I wouldn't be suprised if porn went out of business, it's already a 'free enterprise' freely given by women here who refuse to cover themselves in descent attire. It's a free for all. The vast diseases, sexual calamities, gender dysfunctions, and God knows what else is porn culture all in itself. And the manner of clothing is book, chapter and verse that expresses it all.

Total disregard for what God intended for our hearts to speak.

I do not always see these women as the sole culprits. Have you ever thought that maybe some of these women are victims of our society?

 

[aribell]

(head's up--long post)

My question is what would happen if men, starting from a young age, were taught that women's bodies were not for their sexual enjoyment? What if boys and teenagers were told that while there are a lot of sexually attractive women that they will encounter, there is only one woman--his future wife--for whom those feelings can be legitimately entertained or expressed? And so his job is simply to find that one woman (prov. 18:22--he who finds a wife finds a good thing) and to enjoy that one woman (prov. 5:19--let her breasts satisfy you at all times; and be you ravished always with her love) to the exclusion of any other? IMO, this is what should be taught.

I believe that girls are taught this--implicitly or explicitly--about their future husband. But I do believe that more often than not men societally are told that women's bodies on the whole, are objects of their sexual gratification. While I accept that men are visual creatures, I don't think that really gets to the heart of the matter. I believe the issue is more how men are taught to see the women around them, and how they are not challenged to be Christ-like in this arena.

As a woman I by no means seek to criticize men; but again, the question is whether, when a woman is in front of a man and he begins to lust, is this about the physical image that is in front of him or is it also about somehow he being unable to see past what pleasure her body means for him to see her as an individual, as a sister in Christ, as a person worthy of being honored and cherished?

Somehow I don't think Jesus would ever have lusted after any woman.
Lust isn't just sexual attraction, it's objectification of the other person. Paul tells the young men to treat the young women as sisters. Besides being without sin, I think Christ did more than "bounce His eyes," I think He loved everyone around Him perfectly. I think that He saw all women He encountered as precious daughters of God who He loved as sisters; and as sisters sought only their good, only to protect.

Do we think this is too much to ask of men in the church?

Paul instructed Timothy to treat the older women as mothers, and the young women "with all purity, as sisters." Think about a sibling relationship--a good one! I really value my siblings. My perspective may be very much colored by being hte oldest, but when I think about what it means to have a sister or brother, I primarily think of having a duty to protect them. I think of how quickly I would come to their defense if I sensed that anyone was trying to harm them. I think of my responsibility to set a good example for them and to hold them accountable to being and becoming the best that they can be.

Even if not everyone else is the oldest or has siblings at all, or a good relationship with them, I really think this is what Paul meant when he instructed men to treat the young women as sisters, and then the older women as mothers. Of course, women are to treat the young men as brothers and the older men as fathers. And in those relationships, a question of untoward attraction isn’t even a question. Why? Because the nature of the relationship itself precludes it. This is what we are to strive toward. We are always in progress, but that is the goal. Also, I’m not saying that it’s not difficult, nor that men aren’t visually stimulated. I’m just saying that neither of those things change what is required. It doesn’t change the ultimate goal of how we are to view one another.

I think that we in the church could make a lot more progress with this issue if we replaced the "just look away" and "cover up" instruction with something that actually addresses how we view one another, how our relationship with Christ has radically changed our relationship with one another. I think that men (along with women) have to hear that the attractive women around them are their mothers and their sisters, and that there is only one woman, their wife, present or future, who should be seen sexually. People might think that's unrealistic, but I think we're having issues with this perpetually (i.e., vast pornography use among young Christian men) because the challenge hasn't gone deep enough.

 

[Ramya]

In the Dance Community, the costumes that I see the Dancers perform in are just plain ridiculous ! And they're all competing to be seen. Just Dance for Heaven's sake. Let the gift of Dance be displayed, not their nasty body parts. Nobody wants to see that mess onstage.

Interesting word choice with the bold. What parts are considered 'nasty'?

 

[Laela]

@the bolded, a caveat to this is that both young men and women should be taught WHY respect and modesty are important to their spiritual progression. There's nothing worse than telling a child don't do something and refusing to (or not being able to) explain to them why- so they truly understand. "Because I said so" isn't enough.
Prov 4:7 urges us to strive for understanding.

I believe modesty is VERY important in the Kingdom of God and we can't overlook this because God is a God of order. So yes, if more churches would teach the young men to respect the women and teach the young women to respect themselves, more of us will rise to the challenge. The responsibility can't fall on either sex.
I also believe modesty in attire is also subjective. I can wear designer clothes and be modest. I can wear any of those outfits in this thread, no matter how 'gaudy' they appear to others and be modest. So, taste in clothing is subjective. If I came across a loud-mouth, obnoxious woman dressed 'modestly', I'll likely remember how she acted than what she was wearing.
There has to be balance in one's spiritual walk, not just a semblance of balance.

I'm glad you're looking beyond the surface.

I believe a man with a lustful heart will look at a woman in a burqa no differently than one in shorts baring cleavage. Having or developing a discerning spirit (with help from the Holy Spirit), from picking the right clothes, to how to behave or treat others, will iron out any spiritual inequities. This is something the older men/women are charged to teach the younger ones.

(head's up--long post)

My question is what would happen if men, starting from a young age, were taught that women's bodies were not for their sexual enjoyment? What if boys and teenagers were told that while there are a lot of sexually attractive women that they will encounter, there is only one woman--his future wife--for whom those feelings can be legitimately entertained or expressed? And so his job is simply to find that one woman (prov. 18:22--he who finds a wife finds a good thing) and to enjoy that one woman (prov. 5:19--let her breasts satisfy you at all times; and be you ravished always with her love) to the exclusion of any other? IMO, this is what should be taught.

I believe that girls are taught this--implicitly or explicitly--about their future husband. But I do believe that more often than not men societally are told that women's bodies on the whole, are objects of their sexual gratification. While I accept that men are visual creatures, I don't think that really gets to the heart of the matter. I believe the issue is more how men are taught to see the women around them, and how they are not challenged to be Christ-like in this arena.

As a woman I by no means seek to criticize men; but again, the question is whether, when a woman is in front of a man and he begins to lust, is this about the physical image that is in front of him or is it also about somehow he being unable to see past what pleasure her body means for him to see her as an individual, as a sister in Christ, as a person worthy of being honored and cherished?

Somehow I don't think Jesus would ever have lusted after any woman.
Lust isn't just sexual attraction, it's objectification of the other person. Paul tells the young men to treat the young women as sisters. Besides being without sin, I think Christ did more than "bounce His eyes," I think He loved everyone around Him perfectly. I think that He saw all women He encountered as precious daughters of God who He loved as sisters; and as sisters sought only their good, only to protect.

Do we think this is too much to ask of men in the church?

Paul instructed Timothy to treat the older women as mothers, and the young women "with all purity, as sisters." Think about a sibling relationship--a good one! I really value my siblings. My perspective may be very much colored by being hte oldest, but when I think about what it means to have a sister or brother, I primarily think of having a duty to protect them. I think of how quickly I would come to their defense if I sensed that anyone was trying to harm them. I think of my responsibility to set a good example for them and to hold them accountable to being and becoming the best that they can be.

Even if not everyone else is the oldest or has siblings at all, or a good relationship with them, I really think this is what Paul meant when he instructed men to treat the young women as sisters, and then the older women as mothers. Of course, women are to treat the young men as brothers and the older men as fathers. And in those relationships, a question of untoward attraction isn’t even a question. Why? Because the nature of the relationship itself precludes it. This is what we are to strive toward. We are always in progress, but that is the goal. Also, I’m not saying that it’s not difficult, nor that men aren’t visually stimulated. I’m just saying that neither of those things change what is required. It doesn’t change the ultimate goal of how we are to view one another.

I think that we in the church could make a lot more progress with this issue if we replaced the "just look away" and "cover up" instruction with something that actually addresses how we view one another, how our relationship with Christ has radically changed our relationship with one another. I think that men (along with women) have to hear that the attractive women around them are their mothers and their sisters, and that there is only one woman, their wife, present or future, who should be seen sexually. People might think that's unrealistic, but I think we're having issues with this perpetually (i.e., vast pornography use among young Christian men) because the challenge hasn't gone deep enough.

 

[Ms Lala]

2. Leggings are not substitutes for pants. Nor can you wear shorts of any kind (though you may get away with capris in the summer).

I was more concerned with the outward appearance than the inside. But by the unction of the Holy Ghost I began to throw away those clothes and I still love to shop and fashion but now I choose what is flattering on me and not sexy (except for the bedroom lol), whats modest and not flashy. When I get dressed for church I make sure I can lift my hands, jump up and down, and bend over without exposing anything!


Sorry for the long post lol!

I so agree with this. I see nothing wrong with leggings under a dress or very long top, it's no different than wearing tights or stockings but they were not meant to be pants IMO and aren't appropriate. I also agree that it is the Spirit that will correct us in our dress IF we are walking in the Spirit.

(head's up--long post)

My question is what would happen if men, starting from a young age, were taught that women's bodies were not for their sexual enjoyment? What if boys and teenagers were told that while there are a lot of sexually attractive women that they will encounter, there is only one woman--his future wife--for whom those feelings can be legitimately entertained or expressed? And so his job is simply to find that one woman (prov. 18:22--he who finds a wife finds a good thing) and to enjoy that one woman (prov. 5:19--let her breasts satisfy you at all times; and be you ravished always with her love) to the exclusion of any other? IMO, this is what should be taught.

I believe that girls are taught this--implicitly or explicitly--about their future husband. But I do believe that more often than not men societally are told that women's bodies on the whole, are objects of their sexual gratification. While I accept that men are visual creatures, I don't think that really gets to the heart of the matter. I believe the issue is more how men are taught to see the women around them, and how they are not challenged to be Christ-like in this arena.

As a woman I by no means seek to criticize men; but again, the question is whether, when a woman is in front of a man and he begins to lust, is this about the physical image that is in front of him or is it also about somehow he being unable to see past what pleasure her body means for him to see her as an individual, as a sister in Christ, as a person worthy of being honored and cherished?

Somehow I don't think Jesus would ever have lusted after any woman.
Lust isn't just sexual attraction, it's objectification of the other person. Paul tells the young men to treat the young women as sisters. Besides being without sin, I think Christ did more than "bounce His eyes," I think He loved everyone around Him perfectly. I think that He saw all women He encountered as precious daughters of God who He loved as sisters; and as sisters sought only their good, only to protect.

Do we think this is too much to ask of men in the church?

Paul instructed Timothy to treat the older women as mothers, and the young women "with all purity, as sisters." Think about a sibling relationship--a good one! I really value my siblings. My perspective may be very much colored by being hte oldest, but when I think about what it means to have a sister or brother, I primarily think of having a duty to protect them. I think of how quickly I would come to their defense if I sensed that anyone was trying to harm them. I think of my responsibility to set a good example for them and to hold them accountable to being and becoming the best that they can be.

Even if not everyone else is the oldest or has siblings at all, or a good relationship with them, I really think this is what Paul meant when he instructed men to treat the young women as sisters, and then the older women as mothers. Of course, women are to treat the young men as brothers and the older men as fathers. And in those relationships, a question of untoward attraction isn’t even a question. Why? Because the nature of the relationship itself precludes it. This is what we are to strive toward. We are always in progress, but that is the goal. Also, I’m not saying that it’s not difficult, nor that men aren’t visually stimulated. I’m just saying that neither of those things change what is required. It doesn’t change the ultimate goal of how we are to view one another.

I think that we in the church could make a lot more progress with this issue if we replaced the "just look away" and "cover up" instruction with something that actually addresses how we view one another, how our relationship with Christ has radically changed our relationship with one another. I think that men (along with women) have to hear that the attractive women around them are their mothers and their sisters, and that there is only one woman, their wife, present or future, who should be seen sexually. People might think that's unrealistic, but I think we're having issues with this perpetually (i.e., vast pornography use among young Christian men) because the challenge hasn't gone deep enough.

I just totally appreciate your entire post. We have to teach and train our young people about their bodies and sexuality from a Godly perspective. Jesus hung around prositutes and I don't think he was lusting after them but seeing them the way the FAther created them. I dont' think what you have posted is unrealistic. God would not give us a standard to live by if we could not do it. Not only did He give us the standard but He gives us the power of the HOly Spirit to get it done.