No such thing as protein overload?

[gymfreak336]

Could it be possible though that it's not the actual protein causing breakage when a lot is used but the DRYNESS that comes with it and how do we combat dryness? With a good moisturizer( whether its a con, DC, leave in) but it has to really perform for you. Just pondering and please keep the experiences and opinions coming it is important to see things from all sides.

ETA: I got too long winded just to say this. lol

Absolutely. Its all about balance. However, what is balancing for one type of hair, might not be balancing for another. That is where personal experimentation comes in.

 

[peppers01]

I believe in protein overload (even though I haven't personally had it)

It's the way the product works. Many protein treatments not only absorb into the hair, but they COAT the hair and stay there like a bandage. The "harder" ones stay in place for weeks despite shampooing.

Why would companies like aphogee warn you not to use the 2 step more than every few weeks? That IS NOT helping them out any. If it was up to them, they would have use more so you can buy more... if it was safe to do so.

That's what I was thinking. I just did the aphogee 2 step, and it did strengthen my hair. I did notice, though, when reading the directions that they're strict about when using the protein, not manipulating the hair in any way until you rinse it out.

 

[Neith]

Again, your protein usage is based off of your baseline. Yours could be different than someone else. Some people need a moisture based regime with supplemental protein but a lot of people need a protein based regime with supplemental moisture.


Nexxus and Dudleys both say that you use them until you don't need them anyone. They are treatments and all treatments whether protein or moisture are design to a correct a problem. Once the problem is no longer an issue, you don't need them any more especially not on the same frequency that you used them to correct the initial problem.

My point is that overusing hard protein can mess up your hair. I wasn't telling anyone that they need the same amount of protein that I do, I was just explaining by giving an example.

Just like you said... if you are not having a problem, you don't need to use the protein so much.

but what if someone DID overuse protein? What if someone who only needed it once a week for a month just continued to keep doing hard protein treatments week after week for months... for example?

Eventually (imo) the hair is going to become brittle even if it has been moisturized. It has been over conditioned/overloaded with protein.

Everyone needs different amounts of protein or sometimes none at all. I guess that's why the mantra of protein conditioners is use as needed around here, lol. So some people will take longer to reach their "protein saturation point", but I think that anyone can reach that point. We all know that every head of hair is different.

 

[betty-boo]

I didn't know some people had become so afraid of protein.

UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT

I don't believe much of the stuff I read about products anymore.

Hair care seems to have gotten so complicated. You have to examine your moisturizers and make sure this is balanced with that and which protein is this and which oil is that, etc. It's kind of crazy, IMO. And I suspect...unnecessary.

I got a way from all that and just do what works for my hair. I'm not going to say there is no such thing as protein overload because some people experience it, or at least what they think is protein overload. At one point in my journey I gave up protein completely and my hair improved dramatically. However, a couple of years later, I realize the problem was more likely that I was just using too many and too much product of any kind.

Personally, I've found that my hair needs a lot less maintaining and scientific study than I once thought.

But everyone really has to do what works for them and remember that it won't work for everyone. General statements about hair almost never stand up for all individuals.

Just saying.

Carry on.

But Cichelle, do you think that's because you've found the perfect conditioners and moisturisers that complement each other well and are working well?

I mean, I'm still learning about how to put these things together to get the best balance for my hair. I mean how much is necessary to know?
I'm learning too that protein is okay!

 

[betty-boo]

ITA. Even though I love knowing all the ins and outs of a product, doing too much is worse as doing too little. There comes a point where you have to just stick to what you like. If you are obsessed with things to the point where you are like "I need 10% silk protein, 20% moisture, 20% keratin etc...." you are doing too much.

Okay, this explains it all. Ignore my previous post

 

[gymfreak336]

My point is that overusing hard protein can mess up your hair. I wasn't telling anyone that they need the same amount of protein that I do, I was just explaining by giving an example.

Just like you said... if you are not having a problem, you don't need to use the protein so much.

but what if someone DID overuse protein? What if someone who only needed it once a week for a month just continued to keep doing hard protein treatments week after week for months... for example?

Eventually (imo) the hair is going to become brittle even if it has been moisturized. It has been over conditioned/overloaded with protein.

Everyone needs different amounts of protein or sometimes none at all. I guess that's why the mantra of protein conditioners is use as needed around here, lol. So some people will take longer to reach their "protein saturation point", but I think that anyone can reach that point. We all know that every head of hair is different.

then that person is stupid and they might not need to be doing their own hair. Hair won't become brittle if it is balanced just as hair won't become mushy if it is balanced. If you know where your balance is and know how to maintain it, you won't go too far in either direction.

 

[tgrowe]

then that person is stupid and they might not need to be doing their own hair. Hair won't become brittle if it is balanced just as hair won't become mushy if it is balanced. If you know where your balance is and know how to maintain it, you won't go too far in either direction.

And this is where I went wrong when I first joined this board. I was in information overload and I was all about moisture, moisture, moisture. I thought that was all my hair needed. Started co-washing and using an aloe vera juice/rosewater/glycerin mixture and my hair was super-nasty mushy and wouldn't hold a curl to save my life. But I kept moisturizing thinking my hair had to get used to this new-found moisture. Soon learned I was waaay on the end of extreme and it wasn't right. So then I applied an egg mixture/treatment after finding out about protein and the strength it gives but gave up on that idea after a couple of treatment because my hair was super hard after I rinsed it out. I had to learn of BALANCE, that my "perm-head" def needed both protein and moisture for strength, edification, and health. Now that I know the difference I "listen to my hair" for what it needs and go from there.

 

[Cichelle]

But Cichelle, do you think that's because you've found the perfect conditioners and moisturisers that complement each other well and are working well?

I mean, I'm still learning about how to put these things together to get the best balance for my hair. I mean how much is necessary to know?
I'm learning too that protein is okay!

I think I get what your are asking. And yeah, there is a trial and error part of it that a lot of us go through. I certainly did and occasionally still do! But the bottom line is that, for me, and I suspect a lot of others, it doesn't really have to be that difficult/perplexing/science-project-like. I just finally discovered that I was doing too much and using too many products and that was the biggest problem more so than what I was using. I'm obviously just speaking from personal experience. I mean, I still don't understand the whole "protein-moisture balance" thing. It seems like once I stopped trying to figure out all of that stuff, my hair stopped caring about it too. *shrug*

Btw, I haven't found "the perfect conditioner" and I don't use any other kinds of moisturizers anymore. I have just found ones that get the basic job done. I have, however, changed my mind about what I expect from conditioners, in general. They aren't going to transform my hair into something it isn't...not permanently, anyway...no matter how long I leave it on or what the bottle says. My hair is probably always going to have a tendency to be dry and tangly. A conditioner helps me deal with those issues by, for instance, giving slip when I detangle and/or giving moisture to my ends until I wash again. I don't expect more from them.

The only thing I use that seems to have a long lasting effect on my hair is henna. But again, YMMV.

 

[girlyprincess23]

well I don't know about anyone else and, for me, there is such a thing as protein overload. I mean what she is describing can lead to protein overload. Constantly using proteins without a balancing moisturizer will lead to protein overload. Protein overload for me is when you have used so much protein your hair has next to no moisture in it and requires intense moisturizing treatments for a period of time to regain your protein/ moisture balance. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not (as it is probably an LHCF phrase) it does exsist and she is describing how it happens. I can say this because I have experienced it. At the beginning of last year I was using a DC that I thought was moisturizing and it wasn't (ORS Mayo) and then I was also using henna and then when the breaks started I began using Aphogee two step treatment monthly because that is what I was told to do to combat breakage, but there was nothing I could do to stop those little half of hairs from covering my hands every time I touched my head. Then i saw something on protein overload after I figured out what ORS mayo was and thanks to some good advice (thank you Aggie) I had to go through some intense moisturizing with Nexxus Humectress like whole head baggying overnight and other things for like two weeks and voila drastically reduced breakage. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not I know it is real and I think she is saying it is real she just isn't calling it by the name of "protein overload". Also I did join the protein is my friend because it is, because protein is very useful I actually use a reconstructor every week now (because after the incident I just described I stayed far far faarr away from protein and of course my hair was mushy and gross and breaking a little) and my hair is now so soft and shiny with that elusive 0% breakage now that I know how much to use and when and which products. And that's my $.02

 

[locabouthair]

I believe in protein overload (even though I haven't personally had it)

It's the way the product works. Many protein treatments not only absorb into the hair, but they COAT the hair and stay there like a bandage. The "harder" ones stay in place for weeks despite shampooing.

Why would companies like aphogee warn you not to use the 2 step more than every few weeks? That IS NOT helping them out any. If it was up to them, they would have use more so you can buy more... if it was safe to do so.

I agree. I remember sistaslick saying that it's protein binds to the hair more, than moisture does.

All I know is that when I was using aphogee every two weeks, my hair fell out. This was pre LHCF, and I left everything up to my stylist.

 

[Golden75]

So basically it comes down to, too much of anything is a bad thing. Everyone has their own tolerance. We know that if we use a straight protein regime for 30 days, and moisturize 1-2x in those 30 days, we may potentially have an issue. Same as if we use straight moisture based products for 30 days, and pop some protein in 1-2x we may have a problem. Same way with our bodies, eat too much exercise to little gain a lot of weight. Eat too little, exercise to much, we don't have enough weight for our bodies to function properly. Keep it balanced, find out what works and we no longer have to worry about protein overload (or moisture lack) and moisture overlaod (protein lack).

 

[Neith]

then that person is stupid and they might not need to be doing their own hair. Hair won't become brittle if it is balanced just as hair won't become mushy if it is balanced. If you know where your balance is and know how to maintain it, you won't go too far in either direction.

Yep, that's my point. it is possible for you to get protein overload just the same as it's possible to have your hair over moisturized.

but daaaang... but I wouldn't call anyone stupid Sometimes depending on your hair/the product it's easy to overdo it.

 

[Muse]

well I don't know about anyone else and, for me, there is such a thing as protein overload. I mean what she is describing can lead to protein overload. Constantly using proteins without a balancing moisturizer will lead to protein overload. Protein overload for me is when you have used so much protein your hair has next to no moisture in it and requires intense moisturizing treatments for a period of time to regain your protein/ moisture balance. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not (as it is probably an LHCF phrase) it does exsist and she is describing how it happens. I can say this because I have experienced it. At the beginning of last year I was using a DC that I thought was moisturizing and it wasn't (ORS Mayo) and then I was also using henna and then when the breaks started I began using Aphogee two step treatment monthly because that is what I was told to do to combat breakage, but there was nothing I could do to stop those little half of hairs from covering my hands every time I touched my head. Then i saw something on protein overload after I figured out what ORS mayo was and thanks to some good advice (thank you Aggie) I had to go through some intense moisturizing with Nexxus Humectress like whole head baggying overnight and other things for like two weeks and voila drastically reduced breakage. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not I know it is real and I think she is saying it is real she just isn't calling it by the name of "protein overload". Also I did join the protein is my friend because it is, because protein is very useful I actually use a reconstructor every week now (because after the incident I just described I stayed far far faarr away from protein and of course my hair was mushy and gross and breaking a little) and my hair is now so soft and shiny with that elusive 0% breakage now that I know how much to use and when and which products. And that's my $.02

Sorry I don't know if you were referring to me, Cathy Howse, or another poster but I don't mind calling it what it is. To tell you the truth I really don't know which is why I wrote the topic as a question, I am inclined to believe no at this point but I am keeping an open mind and taking it all in as well. I just want to explore this and gather more experiences/opinions. Thanks for posting want to hear all sides

ETA: Ok sorry I reread my original post and it looks like you were referring to what I wrote about CH. I see where you feel that she is skirting around using the term because basically if you cut out the other protein(leave ins, conditioners) then you prevent yourself into going into overload, but there is a such thing. Did I get that right?

 

[gymfreak336]

Yep, that's my point. it is possible for you to get protein overload just the same as it's possible to have your hair over moisturized.

but daaaang... but I wouldn't call anyone stupid Sometimes depending on your hair/the product it's easy to overdo it.

Yes, they are stupid if they continue using a heavy protein product every week even after they see that their hair doesn't need it anymore. That is stupid.

 

[LaidBak]

I'm no expert...but I think I have experienced protein overload. I use Mega Tek and OCT. When I was using them full strength (per the bottle instructions) I experienced the overload. On more than one occasion I have spent HOURS trying to correct the hardness I felt in my hair. I have a pretty varied stash and I hit my head with every type of conditioner I had --from instant to deep, cheap to expensive, heat and no heat--and it didn't help. I'm sure Cathy Howse has a lot of experience in her own rite...but this head has experienced protein overload. I haven't stopped using it; I am just trying to find the right balance for me.

 

[Your Cheeziness]

I believe in protein overload (even though I haven't personally had it)

It's the way the product works. Many protein treatments not only absorb into the hair, but they COAT the hair and stay there like a bandage. The "harder" ones stay in place for weeks despite shampooing.

Why would companies like aphogee warn you not to use the 2 step more than every few weeks? That IS NOT helping them out any. If it was up to them, they would have use more so you can buy more... if it was safe to do so.

Aphogee 2 step contains animal protein and that type of protein is not found in your weaker protein treatments. Animal protein is the type of protein that will coat and harden the hair which is why it can't be used frequently. But I believe the focus on this discussion is more in regards to our everyday products that contain protein. I think everyone can agree that it would not be smart to use Aphogee 2 Step more frequently than required.

"However, a significant portion of the protein deposited on human hair by hair care
products is adsorbed on the hair by non-covalent forces. These forces are either ionic
or hydrophobic in nature. Adsorbed protein can be washed off"
Source: http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=...n+proteins+hair&d=VG3BcQ-YSBiC&icp=1&.intl=us

 

[Your Cheeziness]

Absolutely. Its all about balance. However, what is balancing for one type of hair, might not be balancing for another. That is where personal experimentation comes in.

And there it is. My regimen won't work for everyone, just as I've tried several things that didn't work for me, but worked for the majority. Adjust fire and keep it moving...(sawwy, the Army just came out of me for a second).

 

[Your Cheeziness]

well I don't know about anyone else and, for me, there is such a thing as protein overload. I mean what she is describing can lead to protein overload. Constantly using proteins without a balancing moisturizer will lead to protein overload. Protein overload for me is when you have used so much protein your hair has next to no moisture in it and requires intense moisturizing treatments for a period of time to regain your protein/ moisture balance. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not (as it is probably an LHCF phrase) it does exsist and she is describing how it happens. I can say this because I have experienced it. At the beginning of last year I was using a DC that I thought was moisturizing and it wasn't (ORS Mayo) and then I was also using henna and then when the breaks started I began using Aphogee two step treatment monthly because that is what I was told to do to combat breakage, but there was nothing I could do to stop those little half of hairs from covering my hands every time I touched my head. Then i saw something on protein overload after I figured out what ORS mayo was and thanks to some good advice (thank you Aggie) I had to go through some intense moisturizing with Nexxus Humectress like whole head baggying overnight and other things for like two weeks and voila drastically reduced breakage. So whether she wants to call it protein overload or not I know it is real and I think she is saying it is real she just isn't calling it by the name of "protein overload". Also I did join the protein is my friend because it is, because protein is very useful I actually use a reconstructor every week now (because after the incident I just described I stayed far far faarr away from protein and of course my hair was mushy and gross and breaking a little) and my hair is now so soft and shiny with that elusive 0% breakage now that I know how much to use and when and which products. And that's my $.02

Oh I DCd FAITHFULLY with ORS Mayo for years thinking it was supposed to make my hair soft. So I know exactly what you're talking about. However, the protein didn't make our hair break, a lack of moisture did. Had we had the proper knowledge of balancing out protein with moisture, this may not have happened to either of us. I think the whole point of this thread is to debate the idea of what's doing the damage: too much protein or lack of moisture in a regimen.

 

[Miamori]

As os often the case, I believe I must disagree with Ms. Howse.

I love protein and agree with everyone else that a lot of people are often too afraid of it or too quick to blame it on their dry hair... Especially considering a bit of protein might help their hair with shine, silkiness, and moisture retention.

I don't, however, believe she is correct in saying there is no such thing though. IMO, her excerpt just affirmed the circumstances under which most people reference protein overload and what they mean by it... "My hair needs some good moisture right now" as opposed to protein, which she was pretty much saying is the same as her call to a moisturizer reassessment.

Yes, hair can be dry due to a need to moiasturize better, but if a protein conditioner has been used, like in the examples she references, I don't see what's wrong with saying the issue is not merely "I neglected to moisturize well enough" (as if protein were not in your regime at all) but instead "I used to much protein / have protein overload too"... Moisture remedies it, but it doesn't change the fact that even she notes protein is the culprit.

IMO it's all the same and she is looking at it from the left and not the right and wording it that way too for controversy and to accompany or hair attitude.

Until she gets her hair looking healthy and not just long I will continue to take her more seriously as a business woman than hair grower.

I prefer other LHCFers opinions on hair practices.

 

[Miamori]

I think the whole point of this thread is to debate the idea of what's doing the damage: too much protein or lack of moisture in a regimen.

See, this right here is what I don't get. Isn't it the same thing?? Like seriously, isn't it, or am I just loca???

If you have too much of one, of course the issue is ALSO that you don't have enough of the other. It is a two-part issue, and it is the same if you reference a moisture overload.

The issue is two-part - you have TOO much moisture, and NOT enough protein. Saying you have too much of one means you also don't have enough of the other. Saying you need more of one is saying that, at the moment, you have too much of the other. As two variables, they are dependent upon one another - directly correlated, positively correlated, black and white, however you want to put it. One does not stand alone from the other.

The debate seems like it is just over semantics to me.

 

[Irresistible]

I believe in protein overload (even though I haven't personally had it)

It's the way the product works. Many protein treatments not only absorb into the hair, but they COAT the hair and stay there like a bandage. The "harder" ones stay in place for weeks despite shampooing.

Why would companies like aphogee warn you not to use the 2 step more than every few weeks? That IS NOT helping them out any. If it was up to them, they would have use more so you can buy more... if it was safe to do so.

Thank you Neith!!!!!!!!!!!!

to heck it dont exist, I lived that nightmare and its very real

let those that dont believe test the theory at their own risk. the hundreds of ladies that have had MAJOR problems with protein and protein set backs and hair loss didnt all make that up

come on nah!!!!

 

[Irresistible]

I wouldnt listen to much Cathy Howse has to say anyway

juss saying

 

[Irresistible]

hehehe

As os often the case, I believe I must disagree with Ms. Howse.

I love protein and agree with everyone else that a lot of people are often too afraid of it or too quick to blame it on their dry hair... Especially considering a bit of protein might help their hair with shine, silkiness, and moisture retention.

I don't, however, believe she is correct in saying there is no such thing though. IMO, her excerpt just affirmed the circumstances under which most people reference protein overload and what they mean by it... "My hair needs some good moisture right now" as opposed to protein, which she was pretty much saying is the same as her call to a moisturizer reassessment.

Yes, hair can be dry due to a need to moiasturize better, but if a protein conditioner has been used, like in the examples she references, I don't see what's wrong with saying the issue is not merely "I neglected to moisturize well enough" (as if protein were not in your regime at all) but instead "I used to much protein / have protein overload too"... Moisture remedies it, but it doesn't change the fact that even she notes protein is the culprit.

IMO it's all the same and she is looking at it from the left and not the right and wording it that way too for controversy and to accompany or hair attitude.

Until she gets her hair looking healthy and not just long I will continue to take her more seriously as a business woman than hair grower.

I prefer other LHCFers opinions on hair practices.

 

[gymfreak336]

See, this right here is what I don't get. Isn't it the same thing?? Like seriously, isn't it, or am I just loca???

If you have too much of one, of course the issue is ALSO that you don't have enough of the other. It is a two-part issue, and it is the same if you reference a moisture overload.

The issue is two-part - you have TOO much moisture, and NOT enough protein. Saying you have too much of one means you also don't have enough of the other. Saying you need more of one is saying that, at the moment, you have too much of the other. As two variables, they are dependent upon one another - directly correlated, positively correlated, black and white, however you want to put it. One does not stand alone from the other.

The debate seems like it is just over semantics to me.

No, not neccessarily. You can have too little moisture as well as too little protein. If you are chemically processing your hair and not conditioning, you will have moisture depletion as well as protein loss over time. This is where the replenishing conditioners come into play that are designed to increase both levels bit by bit.

But because protein and moisture work together to keep each other balanced, You can't be over moisturized and over protein treated at the same time because the two would cancel each other out. That is where the theory of no protein overload comes from....regardless of the strength of the protein, if you match that with a moisture product of equal magnitude, protein overload might not exist for you.

 

[Quest4healthyhair]

Protein overload is very real.

 

[Your Cheeziness]

See, this right here is what I don't get. Isn't it the same thing?? Like seriously, isn't it, or am I just loca???

If you have too much of one, of course the issue is ALSO that you don't have enough of the other. It is a two-part issue, and it is the same if you reference a moisture overload.

The issue is two-part - you have TOO much moisture, and NOT enough protein. Saying you have too much of one means you also don't have enough of the other. Saying you need more of one is saying that, at the moment, you have too much of the other. As two variables, they are dependent upon one another - directly correlated, positively correlated, black and white, however you want to put it. One does not stand alone from the other.

The debate seems like it is just over semantics to me.

Possibly. It could be a potato-pota(h)to debate. All I can speak for is myself and myself is not saying there is no such thing as a protein overload. I'm saying that the default answer to every single hair problem can't possibly be protein overload. Which is what I see alot of the various hairboards across the net. It's like protein is Agent Smith and moisture is Neo up in this mug. I'm just sayin...

 

[Muse]

Possibly. It could be a potato-pota(h)to debate. All I can speak for is myself and myself is not saying there is no such thing as a protein overload. I'm saying that the default answer to every single hair problem can't possibly be protein overload. Which is what I see alot of the various hairboards across the net. It's like protein is Mr. Anderson and moisture is Neo up in this mug. I'm just sayin...

ITA

 

[Muse]

Ok thanks for everyone's responses to sum it up most of you are saying: Yes if you find that balance it won't happen but you can get overload. If I were purposely trying to overload my hair there is no way that I COULD NOT. That by CH saying you need to cut out leave ins and other conditioners with protein when you use a heavy duty one she is implying that if you did use those in addition you could run into overload she just doesn't say it.

I am by no means afraid of protein, I love it but it has to be used responsibly and this is why I didn't want to take one woman's word at face value and get other views for me to consider. Thank you all!

 

[Muse]

No, not neccessarily. You can have too little moisture as well as too little protein. If you are chemically processing your hair and not conditioning, you will have moisture depletion as well as protein loss over time. This is where the replenishing conditioners come into play that are designed to increase both levels bit by bit.

But because protein and moisture work together to keep each other balanced, You can't be over moisturized and over protein treated at the same time because the two would cancel each other out. That is where the theory of no protein overload comes from....regardless of the strength of the protein, if you match that with a moisture product of equal magnitude, protein overload might not exist for you.

I see it is very important to see where the theory originates. It does exist WITHOUT that BALANCE but for CH to not explain where the theory comes from it just sounds like a blanket statement like you just can't get it no matter what. This, Gym, says it all and I see that the balance is the key to never going into overload. And actually balancing doesn't have to be a big chore find a protein that is mild yet effective for your hair and moisturizers that properly counteract the dryness and you can do the balancing act without even thinking about it. Thanks!

 

[gymfreak336]

I see it is very important to see where the theory originates. It does exist WITHOUT that BALANCE but for CH to not explain where the theory comes from it just sounds like a blanket statement like you just can't get it no matter what. This, Gym, says it all and I see that the balance is the key to never going into overload. And actually balancing doesn't have to be a big chore find a protein that is mild yet effective for your hair and moisturizers that properly counteract the dryness and you can do the balancing act without even thinking about it. Thanks!

I think the way CH is getting to that is based on what she thinks are protein treatments. What she describes as protein treatments are really protein conditioners with moisturizing elements. I think that is where her balancing comes in, its kinda done for her at the same time for the most part. If your protein conditioner is one that can also moisturize, you kill two birds in one stone.