Mr. Swagger vs. Mr. Nice Guy

[Glib Gurl]

I was at an event last week about male-female relationships in the black community and one of the (few) men in attendance made a great point about why he thinks black men date/marry interracially. Basically he said that many of the "good black men" (i.e., men who have been to school, go to church, respect their mama, serve their communities, etc.) that we educated sisters say we want to date and marry have been overlooked by black women who dismiss them as "corny" for lacking that certain "swagger" that we expect our men to have . . . .

Now admittedly I do think there is some truth to that. One of my best friend's little brother (well, he's 26 years old - lol) is a PhD student in Engineering, loves his mama, goes to church regularly, etc. yet he has been passed over by girls time and time again because he is "too nice." I shake my head at the situation because he is really a gem - I don't feel too bad for him though because I know that some awesome girl will snatch him up once she comse to her senses.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[JustKiya]

Prime example of poor prioritization.

This right here is something that I think a LOT of women should 'settle' on. Swagger needs to be optional, or at least in your bottom 40% of your 'expectations'.

Swagger.

 

[kbragg]

Mr. Swagger has used, abused, and broken my heart so many times that it's *almost* not a turn on anymore. DH is so Mr. Nice Guy that I never even considered a relationship with him and almost passed him up (scary thought). I mean come on, he's sooo Clark Kent/Harry Potter He fits the "nerdy white dude" stereotype perfectly (and hates that sterotype BTW lol) Yet he's turned out to be an awesome father (even adopting my eldest as his own), excellent provider and (when I'm not PMSing) and excellent husband.

I'm glad I gave Mr. Nice Guy a chance

There was a brother I dated prior to DH who was also a Mr. Nice Guy plus short (DH isn't tall but at least he's an inch taller than me! I'm 5'8). I totally passed him up I wouldn't change a thing but I do hope that he stayed a Mr. Nice Guy and found a great wife because he really was a sweet dude

 

[Bunny77]

Awww Glib, you went to one of those events talking about BW-BM relationships?

I want ALL such events to die a very quick and sudden death. All this time black men and women spend talking about relationships is such a waste and they still ain't getting together... verbal masturbation, I say!

Rant over...

As for your friend's brother, he might need to fish in some different pools... because for every nice young BM like him, I can point out plenty of his BW counterparts... what about the quiet, studious and "nice" BW who gets passed up?

Honestly, I really don't feel bad for "nice" BM who get passed up. It's life. Grow a pair, shut up and find your "nice" BW counterpart. Deal with it.

 

[kbragg]

Awww Glib, you went to one of those events talking about BW-BM relationships?

I want ALL such events to die a very quick and sudden death. All this time black men and women spend talking about relationships is such a waste and they still ain't getting together... verbal masturbation, I say!

Rant over...

As for your friend's brother, he might need to fish in some different pools... because for every nice young BM like him, I can point out plenty of his BW counterparts... what about the quiet, studious and "nice" BW who gets passed up?

Honestly, I really don't feel bad for "nice" BM who get passed up. It's life. Grow a pair, shut up and find your "nice" BW counterpart. Deal with it.

But the funny thing is nice guys don't like nice girls...they like bad girls which is probably why DH was attracted to me

 

[Glib Gurl]

Awww Glib, you went to one of those events talking about BW-BM relationships?

I want ALL such events to die a very quick and sudden death. All this time black men and women spend talking about relationships is such a waste and they still ain't getting together... verbal masturbation, I say!

Rant over...

Yep, indeed - I am still on my Single & Ready to Mingle Challenge until further notice

I have to admit that I was disappointed when I first arrived. I mean, I knew that women would outnumber men, but honestly, the room was packed with about 60 women and 15 men . . . who came with their wives/girlfriends

As for your friend's brother, he might need to fish in some different pools... because for every nice young BM like him, I can point out plenty of his BW counterparts... what about the quiet, studious and "nice" BW who gets passed up?

Honestly, I really don't feel bad for "nice" BM who get passed up. It's life. Grow a pair, shut up and find your "nice" BW counterpart. Deal with it.

LOL - yeah neither me nor my friend's sister feel bad for him. We know he'll be fine.

 

[Bunny77]

Yep, indeed - I am still on my Single & Ready to Mingle Challenge until further notice

I have to admit that I was disappointed when I first arrived. I mean, I knew that women would outnumber men, but honestly, the room was packed with about 60 women and 15 men . . . who came with their wives/girlfriends

I'm glad you're still on the Challenge! I just think those BM-BW relationship events are the devil. Most men regardless of color don't want to sit around and talk about relationships, so they become hen parties. And then various BM will then tell BW why their **** stinks and why they're still single and why WW are better.

BM date interracially because they want to. No other reason.

Seriously, PASS.

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

I shake my head at the situation because he is really a gem - I don't feel too bad for him though because I know that some awesome girl will snatch him up once she comse to her senses.

What are your thoughts on this?

Awww....there you go Glib! Get it girl! Here's a nice guy for YOU! Why haven't you snatched him up yet if he's such a gem?


In answer to your question, yea...a lot of "nice guys" do finish last sad to say. Especially in the black community. However, the older and wiser I get, the more I DO want a true, genuine NICE guy. BUT...I don't want a push-over.
Those guys with "swagger" are sexy and appealing in some way, but like Kbragg said... since I've had my heart broken and stomped on by some of these guys w/"swagger", swagger is no longer near the top of my list of qualities that I want in a marriage mate. I HAVE to be attracted to him though.

With that said... What's even MORE frustrating however, is that these same "nice guys", church-going guys that they so-call talk about don't usually want a "nice girl" either!! Otherwise, they would have gotten with her already! It's like opposites attract or something.

The "bad girls" want the "good guy", the "good girls" want the the "bad guy". And the "bad boy" wants the "sweet good girl", and the "good guy" wants the "bad girl". It's really annoying.

 

[Glib Gurl]

Awww....there you go Glib! Get it girl! Here's a nice guy for YOU! Why haven't you snatched him up yet if he's such a gem?

Girl, that would be like dating my OWN little brother I've known dude since he was about 10 years old. No thank you, ma'am! LOL!

ITA with the rest of your post, though.

 

[anon123]

As for your friend's brother, he might need to fish in some different pools... because for every nice young BM like him, I can point out plenty of his BW counterparts... what about the quiet, studious and "nice" BW who gets passed up?

I'm saying! Bf says the same thing as the guy in the OP. He says his friends say it. I went out with some LHCF ladies and one of them said her bf said the same thing. This seems to be a common idea among black (and maybe other) men. But who are they chasing? Who is it that's passing them up? They're all so concerned with dating somebody with a booty who has the most stylish clothes that they may ignore other good prospects. Hey, if they're nerds, why should they expect to pull the coolest women? It does happen sometimes, of course. But why be mad at the hottest women for doing the same thing they themselves (the men) are doing, i.e. excluding non-hot people from their prospects.

 

[MD_Lady]

Prime example of poor prioritization.

This right here is something that I think a LOT of women should 'settle' on. Swagger needs to be optional, or at least in your bottom 40% of your 'expectations'.

Swagger.

Say it again Kiya!!

 

[OneInAMillion]

[B]Prime example of poor prioritization.[/B]

This right here is something that I think a LOT of women should 'settle' on. Swagger needs to be optional, or at least in your bottom 40% of your 'expectations'.

Swagger.

Yes Yes Yes to the bold! I think women (esp. when you reach your late 20s and/or you really start thinking about marriage) need to let go of that swagger BS.

My girlfriends are like this all day, and we're creeping up on 30, all talk about settling down, etc. I get clowned constantly for dating the quiet guy, the shy guy, etc. But at the end of the day, I'm with my SO because he IS the nice guy. I like being treated nicely, going on nice dates, and getting all the attention I deserve. With Mr. Swagger its all about him .

Anyway, it's totally about priorities. In my early 20s I was cool with dating the dude with swagger, who was often the cheater, or the one who had trouble committing, you name it. I had to learn the hard way. Swagger is only interesting for so long...

 

[OneInAMillion]

I'm saying! Bf says the same thing as the guy in the OP. He says his friends say it. I went out with some LHCF ladies and one of them said her bf said the same thing. This seems to be a common idea among black (and maybe other) men. But who are they chasing? Who is it that's passing them up? They're all so concerned with dating somebody with a booty who has the most stylish clothes that they may ignore other good prospects. Hey, if they're nerds, why should they expect to pull the coolest women? It does happen sometimes, of course. But why be mad at the hottest women for doing the same thing they themselves (the men) are doing, i.e. excluding non-hot people from their prospects.

HA! This is a good point though...I'll save that rant for another day but I do have a friend that fits this category, but what's not so nice about him is that he's always trying to date Halle Berry and putting his nose up to the regular chicks...

 

[Spiffy]

I know plenty of nice guys, but they aren't checking for nice girls. It goes both ways!

 

[Theo]

I think some of it may have to do with self esteem. Some of these nice guys with all these accomplishments, are really just insecure, and they're hiding behind their degrees, hoping that will be enough to draw women in. Woman can sense that, and its a turn off. I know men try to say that we women will tout our 50-11 degrees like they're something to be attracted to, but they do it too!

I'm saying! Bf says the same thing as the guy in the OP. He says his friends say it. I went out with some LHCF ladies and one of them said her bf said the same thing. This seems to be a common idea among black (and maybe other) men. But who are they chasing? Who is it that's passing them up? They're all so concerned with dating somebody with a booty who has the most stylish clothes that they may ignore other good prospects. Hey, if they're nerds, why should they expect to pull the coolest women? It does happen sometimes, of course. But why be mad at the hottest women for doing the same thing they themselves (the men) are doing, i.e. excluding non-hot people from their prospects.

I also think it has something to do with entitlement. This whole BM shortage has got every black male with a degree thinking that they're the baddest thing out there. So they go after the baddest chick around, but unfortunately, they're still corny, and she still isn't interested.

I've seen it play out like that a few times. And I have to tell them, you having a masters/MD/JD does not change the fact that you are still a cornball and wholly uninteresting. Sorry.

 

[OneInAMillion]

I promised I would stop but this reminded me of another ex-friend of mine. On looks and general corniness, you would probably call him Mr. Nice Guy . We were set up by mutual friends of ours because we actually grew up in the same area.

Well it turns out that he was nice, but also extremely uppity. We went out on a few dates, but kept it as a friendship. One day he told me things couldn't progress because he was basically trying to improve his "status" in life. Meaning, he wanted a black socialite from a rich family . So at the end of the day, because I didn't have professionals in my family that could get him connections, he didn't see us together.

So I can't fully give it to the nice guys...some of them have issues too .

 

[Bunny77]

Well it turns out that he was nice, but also extremely uppity. We went out on a few dates, but kept it as a friendship. One day he told me things couldn't progress because he was basically trying to improve his "status" in life. Meaning, he wanted a black socialite from a rich family . So at the end of the day, because I didn't have professionals in my family that could get him connections, he didn't see us together.

See, low-key though... I wonder how many "connections" black socialites really have... like seriously... what are they doing for black folks that many haven't done themselves through education and hard work?

Obviously, I'm not from one of those families... My parents were just regular-ole public school teachers... and maybe I'm just not in the know, but I really don't see what advantages that folks from "old black money" have from other middle-to-upper class black folks. I really don't.

 

[OneInAMillion]

See, low-key though... I wonder how many "connections" black socialites really have... like seriously... what are they doing for black folks that many haven't done themselves through education and hard work?

Obviously, I'm not from one of those families... My parents were just regular-ole public school teachers... and maybe I'm just not in the know, but I really don't see what advantages that folks from "old black money" have from other middle-to-upper class black folks. I really don't.

ITA. I'm not from one of those families either, but I don't see the connections either...I mean really, the guy grew up in the not so nice parts of Newark and then he went to Princeton. What connections does he need that he wasn't getting at school...doesn't make any sense. But he apparently dated a girl with his ideal background and connections and he regretted breaking up because it's hard to find that.

 

[SleekandBouncy]

I'm saying! Bf says the same thing as the guy in the OP. He says his friends say it. I went out with some LHCF ladies and one of them said her bf said the same thing. This seems to be a common idea among black (and maybe other) men. But who are they chasing? Who is it that's passing them up? They're all so concerned with dating somebody with a booty who has the most stylish clothes that they may ignore other good prospects. Hey, if they're nerds, why should they expect to pull the coolest women? It does happen sometimes, of course. But why be mad at the hottest women for doing the same thing they themselves (the men) are doing, i.e. excluding non-hot people from their prospects.

Pretty much.
More often than not those guys are going for the pretty, stylish, outgoing, all around full package girl or the "bad girl" herself. The girl all the other guys want to. It's human nature to go for the "best", but one need consider if their currency is viable in the pools they are fishing. If you don't have the very qualities you're asking for in others and you don't have the equivalent attributes to compensate (that might be money,an interesting personality, etc.) than why be surprised by the outcome? It doesn't mean you have to give up, but do be prepared for an uphill shisuation.

At the general topic - I don't consider swagger and niceness mutually exclusive unless folks are really using "nice" to mean corny. There's this theme that virtuous characteristics somehow relate to having an absence of money, good looks, charm, etc.. I think it's a comfort concept to those without one set of attributes.
To me swagger is confidence, a certain coolness and style about yourself. My brother is a "nice guy" and the girls LOVE him. Then again he also has a cool and calm swag about him and he's *tries not to throw up* if I"m objective...handsome and thanks partly to absorbing my style dresses well
Most guys who have serious complaints about niceness hindering them are either fishing in the wrong pools or aren't looking at the other possible explanations like -

* They confuse being too easy too soon, trying too hard to impress or desperation with niceness. Ppl respect that which isn't too easy, too soon.

* They confuse being a pushover with being "nice" or they have simply uninteresting personalities and not enough money, charm nor looks to compensate.

* They are unattractive or poorly styled. Sometimes it's not about being too nice, but rather that we live in a society where ppl are judged by their appearance. That is is something they can at least improve immediately.

* They are as you said Mwedzi, very nerdy, but going after prospects who are not. Like attracts like so they should consider widening their dating pool to include women similar to themselves or they should make the necessary revisions to be likely options for the women they are chasing.

* They aren't nice at all, but they put fourth a saccharine image to cover less than desirable traits. I need for ppl to be able to define what nice is other than going to church and respecting their mama.

* They are simply crazy, weird or have severe halitosis. Sometimes relationship probs are as simple as that.

 

[hopeful]

Swagger is very much over-rated. But I agree with Sleek & Bouncy, nice and swagger are not mutually exclusive. My dh certainly has a heavy dose of nice and swag, a very sexy combo. But certainly if I had to choose, nice would trump swag night and day. I know women who were mesmerized by swag and got burned badly.

 

[Extremus]

I need a balance.

 

[Flavia]

At the general topic - I don't consider swagger and niceness mutually exclusive unless folks are really using "nice" to mean corny. There's this theme that virtuous characteristics somehow relate to having an absence of money, good looks, charm, etc.. I think it's a comfort concept to those without one set of attributes.
To me swagger is confidence, a certain coolness and style about yourself.

ITA. I wish more women would understand this.

 

[YankeeCandle]

Although I agree that swagger and niceness can co-exist within the same person, I prefer a romantic relationship with a man who is nice and who doesn't really have much "swagger."

I define "swagger" as an outwardly visible confidence, sense of style, or arresting aura/manner. Other people look up and notice when a person with "swagger" enters the room. That doesn't really attract me in another person. It actually often dampens my curiosity/interest when I run into men whom others would describe as having "swagger" under my definition. Other women swoon and men stare at such a man, but I'm usually like "hmmm, where's the buffet table?" Not to say I would reject someone because of swagger (I tend not to rule people out categorically but to take them as individuals), but I would need to see more personality traits I like in order to get excited.

I am more intrigued by men whose confidence is not remarked upon by the outer world. Make no mistake: he needs to HAVE confidence, but I prefer that it be almost like an interior skin or an internal compass that guides him in his choices but which other people do not necessarily notice. In fact, IME, the person I know who best fits this description [my SO] gives far less of a damn about other people's opinions or actions than most people with visible "swagger."

Also, nerdiness doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'd find it attractive if my SO were a bit nerdy.

Now, corniness...that's another matter entirely, and it by no means requires nerdiness, niceness, or any other such stereotypically "beta"-labeled trait. Yes, even men who ooze publicly-idolized swagger can be corny as hell. Anyone at all can be corny, and while the OCCASIONAL corny joke can be endearing, a persona composed largely of corniness gets the thumbs down, whether you have "swagger" or not.

 

[HoneyA]

In my late teens, early 20s it was all about swagger. Then I grew up quickly after I realised that guys with serious swagger can seriously break your heart if you let them. Lucky for me I have this way of switching off emotion.

Give me a nice guy any day. If he's got a bit of swagger, that's just the icing on the cake.

 

[ambergirl]

Although I agree that swagger and niceness can co-exist within the same person, I prefer a romantic relationship with a man who is nice and who doesn't really have much "swagger."

I define "swagger" as an outwardly visible confidence, sense of style, or arresting aura/manner. Other people look up and notice when a person with "swagger" enters the room. That doesn't really attract me in another person. It actually often dampens my curiosity/interest when I run into men whom others would describe as having "swagger" under my definition. Other women swoon and men stare at such a man, but I'm usually like "hmmm, where's the buffet table?" Not to say I would reject someone because of swagger (I tend not to rule people out categorically but to take them as individuals), but I would need to see more personality traits I like in order to get excited.

I am more intrigued by men whose confidence is not remarked upon by the outer world. Make no mistake: he needs to HAVE confidence, but I prefer that it be almost like an interior skin or an internal compass that guides him in his choices but which other people do not necessarily notice. In fact, IME, the person I know who best fits this description [my SO] gives far less of a damn about other people's opinions or actions than most people with visible "swagger."

Also, nerdiness doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'd find it attractive if my SO were a bit nerdy.

Now, corniness...that's another matter entirely, and it by no means requires nerdiness, niceness, or any other such stereotypically "beta"-labeled trait. Yes, even men who ooze publicly-idolized swagger can be corny as hell. Anyone at all can be corny, and while the OCCASIONAL corny joke can be endearing, a persona composed largely of corniness gets the thumbs down, whether you have "swagger" or not.

Girl thanks! ITA with your whole post. Personally I've never understood the attraction to swagger. It always come across to me as someone putting on a persona and not being very real.

And I just don't believe in the myth that there are all these nice men out there who can't get a date. Some of them are cheap, have no personality, interests, basic social skills, or poor hygiene and don't seem to have a clue how to interact with a woman so their lack of dates has nothing to do with their niceness.

 

[Bunny77]

Although I agree that swagger and niceness can co-exist within the same person, I prefer a romantic relationship with a man who is nice and who doesn't really have much "swagger."

I define "swagger" as an outwardly visible confidence, sense of style, or arresting aura/manner. Other people look up and notice when a person with "swagger" enters the room. That doesn't really attract me in another person. It actually often dampens my curiosity/interest when I run into men whom others would describe as having "swagger" under my definition. Other women swoon and men stare at such a man, but I'm usually like "hmmm, where's the buffet table?" Not to say I would reject someone because of swagger (I tend not to rule people out categorically but to take them as individuals), but I would need to see more personality traits I like in order to get excited.

I am more intrigued by men whose confidence is not remarked upon by the outer world. Make no mistake: he needs to HAVE confidence, but I prefer that it be almost like an interior skin or an internal compass that guides him in his choices but which other people do not necessarily notice. In fact, IME, the person I know who best fits this description [my SO] gives far less of a damn about other people's opinions or actions than most people with visible "swagger."

Also, nerdiness doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'd find it attractive if my SO were a bit nerdy.

Now, corniness...that's another matter entirely, and it by no means requires nerdiness, niceness, or any other such stereotypically "beta"-labeled trait. Yes, even men who ooze publicly-idolized swagger can be corny as hell. Anyone at all can be corny, and while the OCCASIONAL corny joke can be endearing, a persona composed largely of corniness gets the thumbs down, whether you have "swagger" or not.

Oh, how I love this post...

Count me as another woman who's never seen the appeal in swagger. Now, yes, I LOVE a confident man, but I feel confidence can be displayed in so many ways... and nerds can have confidence.

To me, a man like Bill Gates is probably the most confident thing on planet Earth and I think he rates a zero on the swagger meter. But something about a man who decided when he was a teenager that he was going to make his mark in a field that didn't exist (computer programming) and create a company that he thought would revolutionize the world... damn, can I get your number?

IMPORTANT NOTE: No, I am not attracted to Bill Gates whatsoever ... but the story of his success is something that is very appealing to me, and those are the kinds of qualities that I look for in a man.

Now sure, I don't want a man who walks around with his head hung low and sulks and talks about how he's not good at anything. Dealt with that before, and hey, you can look like Idris but if all you talk about is how worthless you are, you might as well look like Bill Gates, okay? And then I'll take Bill because at least he internally knows he's got it going on!

I want the smart, confident man who can walk into a room and not necessarily have anyone checking him out... but he goes about his business and gets **** done because he knows inside that he is all that and more.

Corny is the dude telling really horrible jokes and trying to be a comedian all the time because he's not comfortable with himself.

 

[Crystalicequeen123]

Pretty much.
More often than not those guys are going for the pretty, stylish, outgoing, all around full package girl or the "bad girl" herself. The girl all the other guys want to. It's human nature to go for the "best", but one need consider if their currency is viable in the pools they are fishing. If you don't have the very qualities you're asking for in others and you don't have the equivalent attributes to compensate (that might be money,an interesting personality, etc.) than why be surprised by the outcome? It doesn't mean you have to give up, but do be prepared for an uphill shisuation.

At the general topic - I don't consider swagger and niceness mutually exclusive unless folks are really using "nice" to mean corny. There's this theme that virtuous characteristics somehow relate to having an absence of money, good looks, charm, etc.. I think it's a comfort concept to those without one set of attributes.
To me swagger is confidence, a certain coolness and style about yourself. My brother is a "nice guy" and the girls LOVE him. Then again he also has a cool and calm swag about him and he's *tries not to throw up* if I"m objective...handsome and thanks partly to absorbing my style dresses well
Most guys who have serious complaints about niceness hindering them are either fishing in the wrong pools or aren't looking at the other possible explanations like -

* They confuse being too easy too soon, trying too hard to impress or desperation with niceness. Ppl respect that which isn't too easy, too soon.

* They confuse being a pushover with being "nice" or they have simply uninteresting personalities and not enough money, charm nor looks to compensate.

* They are unattractive or poorly styled. Sometimes it's not about being too nice, but rather that we live in a society where ppl are judged by their appearance. That is is something they can at least improve immediately.

* They are as you said Mwedzi, very nerdy, but going after prospects who are not. Like attracts like so they should consider widening their dating pool to include women similar to themselves or they should make the necessary revisions to be likely options for the women they are chasing.

* They aren't nice at all, but they put fourth a saccharine image to cover less than desirable traits. I need for ppl to be able to define what nice is other than going to church and respecting their mama.

* They are simply crazy, weird or have severe halitosis. Sometimes relationship probs are as simple as that.

EXCELLENT Post.

Some of these "nice guys" out here don't realize that it's not really their "niceness" that's turning the ladies off.

 

[anon123]

This thread made me have this convo with my bf again and he's just not believing y'all. It's not that he thinks nice guys go without, assuming they are not really lacking in some basic area. It's that he sees what he thinks of as good quality women with what he sees as low quality men. That those men have almost nothing going for them except swagger. They ain't got no job, engaging in shady activities, won't really wine and dine a girl, etc. He thinks it's a widespread phenomenon in the black community, though it does exists in others. The bad boy phenomenon, the glorification of pimp/ho culture. And he thinks it's permeated beyond "hood" black people. That even middle class sisters chase after this. He frequently references Beyonce singing "Soldier" and its lyrics.

Now he's making me watch Diary of a Tired Black Man.

 

[Nayeli]

I think we are underestimating a lot of these nice guys too. Many a nice guy KNOWS that he's "nice," KNOWS that there is a good cross-section of intelligent, ambitious and loyal women who want a nice guy and will spin these very women in circles, while still playing the role of the unassuming nice guy.

Of course that begs the question what does "nice" really mean but that's for another time lol.

 

[ambergirl]

This thread made me have this convo with my bf again and he's just not believing y'all. It's not that he thinks nice guys go without, assuming they are not really lacking in some basic area. It's that he sees what he thinks of as good quality women with what he sees as low quality men. That those men have almost nothing going for them except swagger. They ain't got no job, engaging in shady activities, won't really wine and dine a girl, etc. He thinks it's a widespread phenomenon in the black community, though it does exists in others. The bad boy phenomenon, the glorification of pimp/ho culture. And he thinks it's permeated beyond "hood" black people. That even middle class sisters chase after this. He frequently references Beyonce singing "Soldier" and its lyrics.

Now he's making me watch Diary of a Tired Black Man.

I think he's on to something to some extent. I do think that as a community we tend to glorify pimp culture and encourage (and then denigrate) women who dress like hos. But to me that's different from swagger. And I really don't see any of my middle class, professional sisters with "hood" men.

I also just don't believe there is some motherload of nice guys with any kind of quality who are doing without because they're nice. I think men love to hold on to this stereotype of the nice guy finishing last because then they can blame their lack of female companionship on women and not on their own shortcomings.