Keeping the Old Testament laws?

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MrsHaseeb you posted a lot and it will take me a moment to go through all of it.
But I want to say this. Yes its true, I believe strongly in what I posted because I took the time to study it out. What ever someone else post, I consider and go back and look it up to make sure my understanding is correct, I do not dismiss it. I believe as Christians we should always try to build one another up even if we do not agree, Fact is fact that is true but I try not to insult or make fun of anyone, I also would never encourage it. For us to be Christians and continuously insult one another is so amazing to me, for that was the past life, that was the old unchristian way to do things. I read these post from folks that say I would never go back in the Christian forum, because folks are nasty and how can Christian and nasty go hand and hand. I am not accusing you. I enjoy reading your post very much, I don't agree with everything from a Christian point of view, but I don't see a need to comment on everything either. Whenever I post its not going to change. I stand by what I am saying however, I do have an open mind. I can't dismiss everyone I have to make sure of my own understanding. For my salvation and others is on the line so I would never post just to get people to agree with me. I do not have a heaven or a hell. I would never wilingly want to lead anyone astride. Not ever. But I will respond to your post. because as I stated above. I have only been a real and true Christian for five years. I have already read the stuff you posted those were my very same arguments. The question is why? what was I fighting?
 
Girl, you are going to be beating a dead horse.:lol:

When people have a train of thinking such as this, its unhealthy to continue on with trying to teach them. If the Holy Spirit hasn't been able to do it, none of us can. When people reject the Word of God in its entirety, its like arguing with someone who is in solitary confinement.

I thank you for your posts today....it reminded me of my Old Testament law classes....those classes were really good.

God bless you!

N&W

I respectfully disagree, this is invaluable for those in need of fellowship. I know it's not just me that is thanking God for her wisdom shared.
 
Some of what you posted only applies to Catholics and everyone on here is not Catholic.

The quotes that I provided showed how the earliest Christians viewed Sabbath and Sunday worship. It's not a Catholic vs. Protestant thing. Everyone here knows I'm Catholic, and not everything I post will be "generic Christian," but will come from my understandings, studies, etc. as a Catholic. People can take what they want from it or agree with whatever aspects they wish to.

Most Protestants do believe in Sunday worship (the Lord's Day) as opposed to keeping a Saturday Sabbath.


Please remember that before posting those things. Also, the apostles did not abolish circumcision, Jesus did when he came to fulfil the law. The Old Testament circumcision became a circumcision of the heart which had nothing to do with the apostles and everything to do with Jesus Christ.

The Apostles carried out Christ's will and His mission. The Apostles also had the authority to guide and teach the Church. In the New Testament, an argument had arisen that Gentile converts should first be circumcised and then be baptized--Paul the Apostle said only baptism is necessary, because they were initiates into the New Covenant, not the Old.

They simply understood it because they were spiritually minded. The apostles had no authority to change the Sabbath and quite frankly, it was pointless to do so.

1) The Apostles no longer required or enforced circumcision
2) The Apostles worshipped on the Lord's Day because it was the day of Christ's resurrection
3) The Christians who were directly under the Apostles and who knew them personally were witnesses to this and continued Sunday worship--hence the historical quotes I provided as historical evidence testifying to what 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Century Christians were doing.

Early Christian texts like the Didache or letters from Ignatius of Antioch (Ignatius was a disciple of John the Apostle) are very insightful historical texts to show what the early Christians believed and what they were doing. In fact, the Didache (from around the AD 70's) is the earliest written record of the Christian opposition to abortion and infanticide.
 
I believe as Christians we should always try to build one another up even if we do not agree, Fact is fact that is true but I try not to insult or make fun of anyone, I also would never encourage it. For us to be Christians and continuously insult one another is so amazing to me, for that was the past life, that was the old unchristian way to do things. I read these post from folks that say I would never go back in the Christian forum, because folks are nasty and how can Christian and nasty go hand and hand.

Agreed. Although I disagree w/ the SDA view of Sabbath and Sunday worship, I can do so respectfully while laying out my own arguments. Hopefully my post hasn't been seen as trying to tear anyone down, but I wanted to provide insight as to why many Christians hold to worshiping on Sunday and its historical roots.
 
The quotes that I provided showed how the earliest Christians viewed Sabbath and Sunday worship. It's not a Catholic vs. Protestant thing. Everyone here knows I'm Catholic, and not everything I post will be "generic Christian," but will come from my understandings, studies, etc. as a Catholic. People can take what they want from it or agree with whatever aspects they wish to.

Most Protestants do believe in Sunday worship (the Lord's Day) as opposed to keeping a Saturday Sabbath.

The Apostles carried out Christ's will and His mission. The Apostles also had the authority to guide and teach the Church. In the New Testament, an argument had arisen that Gentile converts should first be circumcised and then be baptized--Paul the Apostle said only baptism is necessary, because they were initiates into the New Covenant, not the Old.

1) The Apostles no longer required or enforced circumcision
2) The Apostles worshipped on the Lord's Day because it was the day of Christ's resurrection
3) The Christians who were directly under the Apostles and who knew them personally were witnesses to this and continued Sunday worship--hence the historical quotes I provided as historical evidence testifying to what 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Century Christians were doing.

Early Christian texts like the Didache or letters from Ignatius of Antioch (Ignatius was a disciple of John the Apostle) are very insightful historical texts to show what the early Christians believed and what they were doing. In fact, the Didache (from around the AD 70's) is the earliest written record of the Christian opposition to abortion and infanticide.

Hi. I was not referring to all of that I was just acknowledging the fact that some of it is Catholic, like the one that refers to the mass. There may be some new comers that do not know you're Catholic and may not know where those writing came from. That's all I meant. I'm fine with what you posted. I have read Didache and Justin Martyr so I'm familiar with those.

The Bible tells us in many places that the believers met on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, which we know as Sunday, so I'm not disagreeing with you there. What im saying is, the apostles had no authority to change the Sabbath and there was no reason to. Worship is not about a "Sabbath" at all, be it Saturday or Sunday but about the gathering of believers to worship God together in Spirit and truth. The early believers met when they could because of extreme persecution but Sunday was important but that was when Christ was resurrected.
 
MrsHaseeb you posted a lot and it will take me a moment to go through all of it.
But I want to say this. Yes its true, I believe strongly in what I posted because I took the time to study it out. What ever someone else post, I consider and go back and look it up to make sure my understanding is correct, I do not dismiss it. I believe as Christians we should always try to build one another up even if we do not agree, Fact is fact that is true but I try not to insult or make fun of anyone, I also would never encourage it. For us to be Christians and continuously insult one another is so amazing to me, for that was the past life, that was the old unchristian way to do things. I read these post from folks that say I would never go back in the Christian forum, because folks are nasty and how can Christian and nasty go hand and hand. I am not accusing you. I enjoy reading your post very much, I don't agree with everything from a Christian point of view, but I don't see a need to comment on everything either. Whenever I post its not going to change. I stand by what I am saying however, I do have an open mind. I can't dismiss everyone I have to make sure of my own understanding. For my salvation and others is on the line so I would never post just to get people to agree with me. I do not have a heaven or a hell. I would never wilingly want to lead anyone astride. Not ever. But I will respond to your post. because as I stated above. I have only been a real and true Christian for five years. I have already read the stuff you posted those were my very same arguments. The question is why? what was I fighting?

Hi blazingthru. Although my posts can seem confrontational I actually separate the person from the post/religion. I can dialogue with a person, but when I see things like this I address it. Its not to attack you personally. My apologies if you took it that way.
 
Disclaimer: I did not read the thread, just the OP.


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17


The old testament law should not be discarded. But it shows us the heart and mind of God. He is the same yesturday, today and forevermore. God did not change his mind about what he wanted for His people. But He sent Christ that we would not be saved by just the working of the law, but that our hearts may be purified. He said He would write his heart upon our hearts, not destroy the law.

That's why its so good to study the bible and history because it will give you a better understanding on why God required things at a certain time. Like for example, when it came to the meats and shellfish. Back then there was no refridgeration(sp) or ways to keep things cool. So food was spoil so easily, so God prohibited certain foods because he was keeping His people from sickness and dieases. Not because it was sin to eat those things.

Alot of times people use the "we not under the law" as an excuse to keep sinning. If anything it's more "stricter" (lack of a better word) now under the new testament, than the old testament. Back then you could just sin and do a sin offering. Now God dont even want the sin in your heart.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17.

Jesus came to show us that the law can be in our hearts and our natures can be changed. No more offering up animals for our sin, but we now offer ourselves up as a living sacrifice. So a sacrifice still has to be offered up just like it was in the old testament.He is still the same
 
Hi. I was not referring to all of that I was just acknowledging the fact that some of it is Catholic, like the one that refers to the mass. There may be some new comers that do not know you're Catholic and may not know where those writing came from.

Well, it's kind of obvious the early Christian writings will be Catholic as Protestantism didn't come into existence until the 16th Century.
It would be more of an issue of someone not knowing basic Christian history rather than me being somehow un-forthcoming that a 70 AD, 100 AD or 300 AD quote is coming from a Catholic Christian theologian or source.
 
Disclaimer: I did not read the thread, just the OP.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

The old testament law should not be discarded. But it shows us the heart and mind of God. He is the same yesturday, today and forevermore. God did not change his mind about what he wanted for His people. But He sent Christ that we would not be saved by just the working of the law, but that our hearts may be purified. He said He would write his heart upon our hearts, not destroy the law.

That's why its so good to study the bible and history because it will give you a better understanding on why God required things at a certain time. Like for example, when it came to the meats and shellfish. Back then there was no refridgeration(sp) or ways to keep things cool. So food was spoil so easily, so God prohibited certain foods because he was keeping His people from sickness and dieases. Not because it was sin to eat those things.

Alot of times people use the "we not under the law" as an excuse to keep sinning. If anything it's more "stricter" (lack of a better word) now under the new testament, than the old testament. Back then you could just sin and do a sin offering. Now God dont even want the sin in your heart.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17.

Jesus came to show us that the law can be in our hearts and our natures can be changed. No more offering up animals for our sin, but we now offer ourselves up as a living sacrifice. So a sacrifice still has to be offered up just like it was in the old testament.He is still the same

Amen sis. You share a lot of what I said. The Bible says unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees we will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. The scribes and Pharisees not only kept the law but knew it front to back. What was the issue? They had dirty hearts. The outside looked clean but outside was full if dead men's bones. The new testament writes the law in the heart to regenerate you from the inside out and transform you into a new type of life because you're born of God's Spirit. Trying to keep 10 commandments puts a person in a position no better than the scribes and Pharisees. The bar is raised in the New Testament and far exceeds the expectation of an external law. Keeping the law is really a cop out. Matthew chapter 5 makes it plain. We have the Holy Spirit, the nature of God so obeying the commandments of God is not grievous for a born again person. The law was meant to be a guide and shadow directing you to Jesus Christ, who would come and purify the heart. The law wasn't the issue in the Old Testament, the fact that man in his fallen nature could not obey it was. We need to get in Christ and the Spirit will teach us to walk in the will of God according to his Word.
 
Well, it's kind of obvious the early Christian writings will be Catholic as Protestantism didn't come into existence until the 16th Century.
It would be more of an issue of someone not knowing basic Christian history rather than me being somehow un-forthcoming that a 70 AD, 100 AD or 300 AD quote is coming from a Catholic Christian theologian or source.

I was trying to avoid this conversation ... The early believers were not Catholic (or Protestant for that matter), especially in the sense of what is seen today. Most of what is seen today as the Catholic Church was developed over time just as it was with Protestantism, which are simply little catholics to me. I am NOT a Protestant. Either way, you believe in Catholicism so I'm perfectly fine with that :-) However, don't give me that "the Catholic Church is the mother Church that Jesus started" line. I'm not interested. We have had that conversation enough. Thanks!
 
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I was trying to avoid this conversation ... The early believers were not Catholic (or Protestant for that matter), especially in the sense of what is seen today. Most of what is seen today as the Catholic Church was developed over time just as it was with Protestantism, which are simply little catholics to me. I am NOT a Protestant. Either way, you believe in Catholicism so I'm perfectly fine with that :-) However, don't give me that "the Catholic Church is the mother Church that Jesus started" line. I'm not interested. We have had that conversation enough. Thanks!

Actually, you are wrong. This is why I think it's very important to actually study early Christian history b/c so many people rely on assumptions or parrot things they've heard.
 
Actually, you are wrong. This is why I think it's very important to actually study early Christian history b/c so many people rely on assumptions or parrot things they've heard.

Catholicism has been around a long time, I'm not denying that. But the whole system is false. Either way, you believe it and we've discussed it more times than I care to count. You have every right to believe what you want. I'm OK with you and respect you a great deal as a person so this is nothing personal. Jesus said you'd know them by their fruit... The fruit have told me all I need to know.
 
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blazingthru, I’m sorry but your entire post incorrect according to scripture. First off, the true Sabbath absolutely is Saturday, not Sunday. But that’s totally irrelevant. New Testament believers are never commanded to keep a Sabbath though there is absolutely nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath if a person chooses to do so. Christ didn’t even keep the Sabbath correctly according the Pharisees. New Testament believers worship in Spirit and truth. That's why the idea of a holy day for new testament believers makes no sense. The Sabbath is not God’s seal. You can’t find that anywhere in the New Testament at all.

Which was wonderful for us, because the Pharisees added a huge bunch of Laws that were not what God had put in place, His laws were simple, their laws were complicated. Jesus showed us that it was good to do good on the Sabbath. He is the creator of the Sabbath, who are the Pharisees to tell God what to do on his day? Please! They were stiff-necked, sanctimonious, hypocritical men

They proudly wore their piety. They were a hyper-conservative element of believers who were zealous about the Scriptures, the law of God, and the purity of the worship of Jehovah. When the Jews were captive in Babylon, the prophets told them they were overcome because of their unfaithfulness to God. In response, the sect of Pharisees formed so that Israel would no longer allow themselves to be influenced by the surrounding pagan nations. Fastidious in the details of their religion, the Pharisees knew that if Israel were to fall into idolatry again, God might forever withdraw His protection. So this was generally a good group of people who were just very zealous in their belief of keeping themselves undefiled by their environment. Unfortunately, many and perhaps most of the Pharisees let their zealotry for obedience eclipse their love for their fellow man. Jesus called them on the carpet several times for their preoccupation with external religion and rebuked them for their self-righteous wickedness. “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness” (Matthew 23:27).


I have a great deal to post, but notice you mention the new testament often, or you a 'new testament" christian, you must realize there is no understanding of the bible with just one book, you need both books to understand the bible.
 
I have been aiming to observe the Sabbath more this year but something always comes up. The Sabbath is very important, whether Saturday or Sunday, there is something G-d wishes to reveal to us if we listen.
 
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New Testament believers worship in Spirit and truth. That's why the idea of a holy day for new testament believers makes no sense. The Sabbath is not God’s seal. You can’t find that anywhere in the New Testament at all.

Colossians 2 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

These things you mention are not part of the 10 commandments, they are the ceremonial laws. This also does not apply to the unclean and clean meats. this is not part of the 10 commandments.

There were yearly sabbaths which had absolutely nothing to do with the Seventh-day Sabbath of the decalogue. And they were definitely a part of the “ordinance” system which ended at the cross. “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation” (Leviticus 23:24). Again we read, “Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement ... It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest” (Leviticus 27, 32). As you can clearly see, these annual sabbaths fell on a different day of the week every year, and God specifically explained that they were not to be confused with the weekly Sabbath. “These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, everything upon his day: BESIDE THE SABBATHS OF THE LORD” (Leviticus 37, 38).
Now we can understand what Paul was referring to in Colossians when he wrote about meat and drink and sabbath days which are shadows. There were certain prescribed offerings for each of those yearly feast days, and they were shadows pointing to the future sacrifice of Jesus. But the Bible says these were “Beside The Sabbaths Of The Lord,” or the Seventh-day Sabbath.

The weekly Sabbath was instituted by God before sin came into the world. There could never be types or shadows before sin existed! All the shadows were introduced because of sin and pointed forward to the deliverance from sin through Christ. For example, all the lambs slain represented Jesus, the true LAMB, who would die for the sins of the world. If sin had not entered the world, there would have been no need of a Saviour, and therefore, no lambs or shadows pointing to a Saviour. Now it is fully established which law was blotted out and nailed to the cross. At the moment of Christ’s death, the veil of the temple was ripped from top to bottom by an unseen hand (Matthew 27:51). The most holy place of the sanctuary was exposed where the sprinkled blood recorded all the sins of the people. But no more blood needed to be sprinkled; no more lambs needed to be slain; the true Lamb had come to which all those sacrifices pointed. From henceforth, it would be a denial of the Saviour to bring animals. It would be denying that He was the fulfillment of all the shadows and types. Therefore, it would be “against us” or “contrary to us” to continue observing that mosaic law.

What are the some of the elements of a seal?

God's seal is found in His law. A seal is what makes a document official, and it normally contains three characteristics: Name, Office, and Territory.
The 4th commandment has all the elements of a seal. The fourth commandment is the only one that contains all three elements of a seal:

1) "The Lord"--His name, (2) "made"--His office as Creator, (3) "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"--His territory.

Ezekiel 20:12

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
Ezekiel 20:20 (KJV 1900)

20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.

If the government summons you to court at a certain time, it expects you to be there—not three days earlier or a day after. If it asks you to testify at a trial, it expects you to answer questions and not read a sports magazine. Neither does it want you to show up late or leave early. It also considers you in contempt of court, a lawbreaker, if you ignore the judge while he or she is trying to speak with you.

I have no doubt that most sincere Christians citizens would be angered by such disrespect for the institution for justice, yet these same Christians do not respect God’s government regarding time with Him in His chamber. They don’t show up when asked, and if they do, it’s often on another day and they don’t do the things asked of them.

Many Christians exclude the fourth Commandment from the other nine as a law meant only for the Jews. Others say that it is still a Commandment to obey, but one that Christians should practice on the first day of the week instead of the last day. Others still argue that it doesn’t matter what day, as long as time is given to God. Yet can you ever imagine finding a judge who orders a trial on Wednesday to accept: “I showed up on Thursday! As long as I show up, does it really matter?” Of course, God will accept praise any day and time, and He will bless you for it. But this Commandment asks for your presence at a particular place and time!

Why is it then that when a judge tells us to show up, we know we are breaking the law when we don’t and will suffer the penalty—but if the Judge of the universe asks us to show on a certain day, it’s really just our call? By ignoring or altering the fourth Commandment, it is no longer a relevant part of the 10 Commandments as written in the Bible—the inspired Word of God. Indeed, if it can change on the whims of a person, why not the others? But Jesus Himself emphatically said this would never be the case. “Think not that I come to destroy the law … but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17,18). He also said not one part of it would change, not even if the earth and its people passed into history. It’s for all time and for all creation! In addition, He said the wording of the law would never change (Luke 16:17), which is what exactly has to happen if we are to accept that the first day is the Sabbath. Can you imagine changing a court summons date and passing it off as lawful?

Many are surprised to hear that neither Jesus nor the New Testament writers ever tell Jewish converts to worship on the first day of the week. You might guess that many Jews would be put off by such a statement—after all, the Commandments are an essential part of their lives (their ancestors were stoned for not following it!) and they had heard with their own ears Jesus tell them to keep the Commandments. Public defenders would be outraged if a judge told them one day to be ready for trial on Thursday, then suddenly moved it to Wednesday to appease the prosecutors without telling the defense! Yet we hear about no such controversy regarding the Sabbath in the Bible.

This becomes even more problematic when Paul puts a stop to the practice of circumcision, replacing the commitment, or altering it, with baptism (Colossians 2:11). His act of transforming the circumcision ceremony created a deep division in the church, yet we are to believe the transformation of the Sabbath did not? Many claim the fact that Jesus doesn’t vocally reinforce the Sabbath in the New Testament proves, from silence, that He must have not considered it important. But since He did observe the Sabbath, and because we see no Jewish outcry, the argument from silence works best the other way around. Indeed, Jesus often mentions a Commandment to add more meaning to it. It isvery possible that the light on the Sabbath in the Bible is sufficient, so He saw no reason to mention it. Of course, Jesus does mention the Sabbath while defending it from legalists (Matthew 12:1–12), and He honored the Sabbath by going to the synagogue, as “was his custom” (Luke 4:16).
 
Thinking that keeping a Sabbath is God’s seal is deception, plain and simple. It’s denial of the Holy Spirit.

The Sabbath is the seal of God. It does not deny the Holy Spirit at all. These are two very great and different things. The Holy Spirit is our gift to help us understand the word and to guide us and help us. The Sabbath is our date with the Lord. It is our day of rest, which we rest from all that we do and reflect on what God is doing in our lives and to give him praise, But He gave us this Day this is out date set forever, it will never change, but he does say someone would think to change time and laws. So yes it was changed in folks mind, but God has said remember it. its not lost.

Jesus gave the vision of Revelation to the Apostle John on the Sabbath when he was a prisoner on the lonely isle of Patmos. John simply described it as happening "on the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10). But which day is the Lord's day? In Isaiah 58:13, God refers to the Sabbath as "my holy day." Never, not once in the Bible is the first day called the Lord's day! This is how many years after the ascension? Quite some time. They continued to observe the Sabbath until 300 years later. We need both the first and the second testament to understand the bible. What was nailed to the cross was the ceremonial laws the blood covered all of that everything thing else remains. We need the whole book to understand the passages within.
The Sabbath is the Lords Day and its starts Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. When the sun sets its now a new day. Not when the sun rises. That’s man’s teachings.
(Matthew 4:4) But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Matthew 7:21-23 makes it clear that many who prophesy, cast out devils, and do many wonderful works in Christ's name will be lost but will think they are saved. Christ said they are lost because they did not do "the will of my Father which is in heaven." Mathew 7: 21. Those who refuse to obey God will end up believing a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12) and thus think they are saved when instead they are lost.

There is much more. I'll be back
 
Blazingthru, I plan to read all of that when I get the opportunity. Its been a long day at work so my eyes may be closing before I can read all that tonight.
 
Rejection of a Christian being under law saying they need to keep a Sabbath has nothing to do with rejecting truth because Christ Jesus is truth. Anybody trying to keep the 10 commandments is under a curse because you are trying to keep the law rather than becoming the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

The ceremonial laws were under a curse, not the Ten Commandments which by the way. Most people do not know that some of those things are sin. Whether they accept Jesus or not, learning how to live a life that is pleasing to God, comes from the Word. The Holy Spirit brings your own study back to your memory when needed. But you actually have to do the work. The ceremonial law was considered to be a law which was “against” them. Even in the New Testament we read the same descriptive language in reference to that law. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Colossians 2:14) Jesus shed blood stopped all of those ordinances, the sacrifices etc., the Festival ceremonies and the Sabbaths. (notice it’s not Sabbath but Sabbaths.) The ceremonial laws was not called good and holy Ezekiel 20:24 (KJV 1900)
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols. Ezekiel 20:25 (KJV 1900) 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; but the Commandments Romans 7:12 (KJV 1900) 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
How can you become the righteousness of God if you do not obey him, is not that the main request that he has ask of us. Obedience! How can we obey God if we do not know what his requests are? Yes it’s written in our hearts, a sense of right and wrong, but you can ignore it you know. Do you think it’s still speaking to you? You can ignore it and still say you’re a Christian. Knowing the Law is what changes you being convicted by it changes you. The Holy Spirit guides you. But again you have to do the work. You have to want to have a relationship with God and build on it. It doesn’t just happen it’s a work in progress. You know most Christian smoke in front of the church it’s totally acceptable; they believe that it’s okay. Many are having sex unmarried, abortion etc., totally acceptable, because they are not under the Law they are under grace and then when judgment comes they find themselves lost. But the Church condones this behavior because they were not under the law, but look where they all ended up. Outside. I love my parents and they have rules. I obey those rules for two reasons, one I don’t want to be punished and I love them. The I love them rules comes in where I can break the rule it will not lead to a punishment but it would hurt my parents, so I chose not to break the rule because of my relationship with my parents and my love for them. We follow the Law because we love the Lord with our whole heart it is not a series of do’s and don’ts its obedience because these things lead to my protection and my salvation and God has created these commandments so that we can spend eternity with him and because we love him we will obey.
Matthew 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. All has not been fulfilled yet. We are still here living under sin. So there is more to come.
Hebrews 4:1-10
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; [c] 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[d]

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”[e]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Love is the fulfilling of the law just as Paul repeated it later in Romans 13:10. If one loves Christ supremely with heart, soul, and mind, he will obey the first four commandments that have to do with our duty to God. He will not take God’s name in vain, worship other gods, etc. If one loves his neighbor as himself, he will obey the last six commandments that relate to our duty to our fellow men. He will not be able to steal from his neighbor, lie about him, etc. Love will lead to obeying or fulfilling all the law.
 
Galatians outlines this perfectly. Quote all the old testament you want about the Sabbath, Paul makes it plain in Colossians that the Sabbath and the entire law was just a shadow of what was to come, which was Christ.

Ceremonial Laws, is what Paul was talking about. Why do we know that? The blood does not remove the Holy day. Just as your birthday never change neither will Gods day of rest. We still have to be faithful to our husbands. We are still not to have graven idols none of those Laws were part of the ceremonial Laws.
 
Ephesians 1 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit brings to your memory the things that you have already studied. He doesn't sit down and teach you. The word of God teaches and you pray for the Holy Spirits guidance and you pray that you understand the scriptures. Which the Holy Spirit"the helper" will help you. This does not negate your acceptance and practice of the Sabbath day worship. Or your obedience of the Law. The Holy Spirit warns you of breaking the Laws. Holy Spirit cleanses, purifies, and refreshes our souls. However, when the Holy Spirit is convicting us of something we should do or quit doing, if we refuse to surrender and to accept the purifying work of the Spirit, we can hardly expect to receive another draft of this blessing. It is the Holy Spirit's work to convict us of sin (John 16:8) and to guide us to all truth (John 16:13). Then, as we respond to the leading of God's Holy Spirit in our lives, He becomes our Comforter (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) Also, the holy spirit comes in waves or different portions of our life. When he is most needed. You have angels watching over you and walking with you the Holy Spirit comes as needed.

quote from db: the first person that you see being baptized in the Holy Spirit like this is Elisha.

When he was following Elijah, he said when you go up to Heaven, I want a double portion of your Spirit. And when Elijah went up, the Holy Spirit came in double portion on Elisha. Well it’s the same thing. When Jesus ascended, He then sent the Spirit in Pentecostal power to His followers. But Samson, when the Holy Spirit came on him, it was the Holy Spirit that gave him that supernatural strength.

Holy Spirit came on King Saul and he prophesied. The Holy Spirit came on David, and he wrote psalms. So people were baptized in the Holy Spirit in a variety of ways in the Old Testament before we ever see it in the New Testament.
 
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Galatians outlines this perfectly. Quote all the old testament you want about the Sabbath, Paul makes it plain in Colossians that the Sabbath and the entire law was just a shadow of what was to come, which was Christ.

Ceremonial Laws, is what Paul was talking about. Why do we know that? The blood does not remove the Holy day. Just as your birthday never change neither will Gods day of rest. We still have to be faithful to our husbands. We are still not to have graven idols none of those Laws were part of the ceremonial Laws.

Blazingthru.... I have kind of scanned through all of your posts. No, Paul was not talking about ceremonial law. The Lord's day in the New Testament is SUNDAY! The day Jesus was resurrected. When I say new testament I'm not referring to Matthew to Revelation but rather the new covenant believer who has been filled with the Spirit. I'm not a person who thinks the old testament books are invalid. There is wisdom in those books. But its the Holy Spirit that revelates the Word. You going back to keeping a law and a Sabbath is putting you in bondage to law. The new testament NEVER commands anyone to keep a Sabbath. You know why? The Sabbath was a shadow to get to Christ. When you see a shadow on the ground, if you keep following it you'll get to the person who is casting the shadow, that is Jesus. He is the culmination of the law, he makes everyday holy. I say this is love to you but you need the Holy Ghost .... He does not lead people further into deception. He sets people free. You can't find anywhere in the Bible where the Sabbath was said to set people apart. Rather it was circumcision. When David went out to meet Goliath he called him and uncircumcised Philistine, not a non Sabbath keeping Philistine. The standards of a new covenant Holy Spirit filled believer far exceeds that of the 10 commandments. We are children of Promise under Abraham made righteous by faith, not law. Abraham didn't have a law yet was considered righteous and there was no commandment for keeping a Sabbath. The Sabbath came with the law in Exodus, not the promise.

Matthew 5:21-22, 27-30, 33-36, 38-40, 43-47 KJV
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. [29] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. [30] And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. [33] Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: [34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: [35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. [36] Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. [38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so?

Look at how Christ addresses the law here! He doesn't even call it the law, lol. He says you've heard it said. Then he tells you what the expectations are now. No saved person needs to be told not to lie if the commandments are in their heart. Going back under law is a twisted understanding of what being a new covenant believer is. Nothing I say is to insult you and its also not to downplay the Sabbath. All of the commandments were for a reason. But the person who decides to go to the law for how to live rather than being Spirit led will be judged by the law. I have outlined it for you. If it seems difficult, you just need to be born again. I don't say that to be mean. I say it because anybody not born again will go to law by nature! Those who need law still have the nature of the world. Galatians is spent the whole time talking about people being put back under the law and its clear that Paul detested it. If that's not plain.... I'm not quite sure what more I can say. You be blessed and I will pray for you.
 
The bible never states that the Sabbath was on a Saturday or a Sunday, so where are we getting this from?
 
The bible never states that the Sabbath was on a Saturday or a Sunday, so where are we getting this from?

The Sabbath is the 7th day. that is in Genesis

Genesis 2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Our days were 1st Day 2nd Day 3rd Day 4th Day 5th Day 6th is preparation day and the 7th Day was the Sabbath it is a day of Rest.
 
Blazingthru.... I have kind of scanned through all of your posts. No, Paul was not talking about ceremonial law. The Lord's day in the New Testament is SUNDAY!


Okay where is this in the text. I would love to read this. Because I searched for it. I could not find that God changed the day.

I can find the warning of the Church who changed the day. No mention, not one word from God. Who is the creator.

There are two primary laws taught in Scripture: the moral law of the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial law contained in ordinances. One was written by God's finger on stone and the other by the hand of Moses on parchment.

Notice how Deuteronomy 4 distinguishes between the two:

Moral Law: "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deuteronomy 4:13).

Ceremonial Law: "And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it" (Deuteronomy 4:14).

Colossians 2:14 tells us that the law that was nailed to the cross was the "handwriting of ordinances," not the finger writing. And which law was that? "They will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses" (2 Chronicles 33:8, emphasis added). The law nailed to the cross in Colossians 2 was written on paper and "against us." (Plus, it is very difficult to nail stone tablets to anything.)

"Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deuteronomy 31:26, emphasis added). The Ten Commandment law, written by the finger of God on tablets of stone, was inside the ark; the ceremonial law, written by the hand of Moses, was placed in a pocket on the side of the ark.

So we can see that Colossians 2 is speaking of the ceremonial laws and annual sabbaths (feasts) that were nailed to the cross. That's why when Jesus died, the veil in the temple was torn (Matthew 27:51).

Sadly, most of the Jewish nation was so engrossed in types and shadows that they failed to see the fulfillment of those Messianic symbols in Jesus. Even the Christian church had a hard time separating the shadow and the reality. Some Jewish Christians required all the Gentile converts to observe all the Jewish ceremonies that pointed to the Messiah. Somehow they didn't yet see the big picture-that the coming of the Messiah had done away with the need for those types and shadows. This is why the Apostle Paul exhorts the Colossian Christians to not allow anyone to judge them in respect of the sabbath days, "which are a shadow of things to come" (Colossians 2:17).

God Does Not Change!
But what if we keep the law and just change the Sabbath commandment from seventh-day worship to first-day worship? The first roadblock is that such a change simply isn't biblical. That really makes it impossible for anyone to keep Sunday holy. You see, the commandment doesn't say to make the Sabbath day holy. It says that God made it holy and set it apart for holy use (sanctified it). We can find no place in Scripture where God transferred the sanctity of Sabbath to Sunday. Therefore, there is no way to keep the first day holy since He didn't make it holy in the first place.

Ultimately one needs to ask the hard question. Since Jesus made the Sabbath before the entrance of sin, and that which God blesses is blessed forever(1 Chronicles 17:27), why would He need to change His own eternal law? He declares, "I am the Lord, I change not" (Malachi 3:6)!

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). Why would God write the Sabbath commandment in stone with His own finger, speak it with His own voice, and than change it with out even producing a vague biblical reference?

The bottom line is to determine why God made the Sabbath and what advantage there might possibly be in changing it. For one thing, God wanted man and domestic beasts to enjoy physical rest that day. During the French Revolution, in the backlash against the church abuse, the atheistic leaders called for doing away with anything religious. Included in the religious ban was a change in the weekly cycle. They could find no astronomical reason for the seven-day week, so they concluded that the weekly cycle was intrinsically religious. They replaced it with a ten-day work cycle but soon found that, not only were the people dissatisfied because of physical exhaustion, but also the draft animals were constantly fatigued. It wasn't long before France returned to the seven-day week.

But physical rest was only a minor part of the full blessing God had in mind for mankind. God wants to enjoy spiritual fellowship with His created beings. The Bible gives no indication that there was a week or a Sabbath in heaven before Creation. The Sabbath was made for man, not for angels. However, God enjoys it so much that He intends to keep it with us throughout eternity. Someday He is moving His universal capitol to this earth (Revelation chapter 21), and He invites all the redeemed to meet with Him for Sabbath each week (Isaiah 66:23).

The Sabbath is, among other things, a memorial of God's creative and redemptive power. It is also a sign of His re-creative power in our lives. "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them" (Ezekiel 20:12).

The weekly Sabbath rest also points to the eternal rest that God is preparing for the redeemed (Hebrews 4:1-11). This rest was typified by entering into the promised land for ancient Israel. Spiritual Israel looks forward to the promise of a new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13).

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it" (Hebrews 4:1).

Jesus is inviting you now to experience the spiritual and physical rest of this blessed day in His presence.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30).

_____________________
 
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Blazingthru.... The new testament NEVER commands anyone to keep a Sabbath. You know why? The Sabbath was a shadow to get to Christ. QUOTE]

Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread," evidence that the disciples were having a communion service on the first day, thus designating it as the new day of worship. But the New Testament records that the disciples broke bread from house to house "daily" (Acts 2:46).

Even if the disciples had held a communion service on the first day of the week, that would not be proof that it designated a new Sabbath day-the Lord's supper was first instituted on a Thursday night.

Others cite 1 Corinthians 16:2 as an argument against the Saturday Sabbath. "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." Instead of proving that Sunday was kept as the new Sabbath, this text actually proves the opposite. Paul instructs the Corinthians to set funds aside at home on the first day so that no offerings need to be taken during corporate worship on the Sabbath.

The Bible record is clear that the apostles worshiped on the seventh day and taught others to do the same. The women who followed Jesus kept the Sabbath on the seventh day (Luke 23:56). Paul kept the seventh-day Sabbath while carrying the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 16:13, 17:2, 18:4). John kept it during his exile on the isle of Patmos (Revelation 1:10).

Jesus, the supreme example for all Christians, kept the Sabbath by consistently worshiping in the synagogue on Sabbath (Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16). Nowhere did He command that a different day should be kept or seek to cancel even the smallest of the commandments (Matthew 5:17-19)! In fact, Scripture clearly records that the redeemed from all nations will keep the Sabbath in the new earth (Isaiah 66:23).

A Subtle Change
Even in the absence of biblical evidence, much of the Christian world looks to Sunday, the first day, as the Christian day of rest. When and how did this come about? The change happened slowly, beginning about 300 years after Jesus returned to heaven.

The pagan Romans called the first day of the week "the venerable day of the sun," or Sun Day. Gentile Christians and Jews alike were Sabbathkeepers, while all of the polytheistic (many gods) pagan religions centered on sun worship on the first day of the week. However, in the Roman Empire the Jews were "a fly in the ointment" because they constantly rebelled and their monotheistic (one God) religion was at odds with every other. Because the Jews kept the Sabbath, all Sabbathkeepers became highly unpopular by association.

In A.D. 313, the Roman Emperor Constantine, who had been a pagan solar worshiper, nominally accepted Christianity and put into effect the first Sunday-worship law.1 Many of the Gentile Christians quickly accepted this change in an effort to distance themselves from the odious Jews because of their common day of worship.

Constantine sought to make it easier for the pagans in his realm to embrace his new politically correct religion. So he encouraged all the Christians to adopt the pagan solar holidays by renaming them after the Christian God or various Christian saints. Sincere Christians resisted this compromise, but because the majority was willing to capitulate, they were soon overpowered. Over a period of several hundred years Sunday gradually became known as the Christian Sabbath and observed as such.
 
Blazingthru.... You going back to keeping a law and a Sabbath is putting you in bondage to law.

The first four commandments define our responsibility to our Creator.

The last six are the foundation of all human civil law. If the moral law were rescinded, there would be no safe place on earth for anyone.

They do not point to Christ, These are the commandment laws and they never change as long as we are on this earth.

We would not survive if it was not for the Law. I have a question what is so difficult about obeying the Sabbath?

Oh and MrsHaseeb, I do not agree with anything you have posted. I believe that the scriptures are taken out of concept and have a total misunderstanding of what the Law actually means, however, I will not call into question your faith, your salvation and whether or not you have the Holy Spirit. You will not agree with me that is your choice as is mine. I am not trying to force you to agree with me at all.
 
Blazingthru....He is the culmination of the law, he makes everyday holy. I say this is love to you but you need the Holy Ghost .... He does not lead people further into deception. He sets people free.

You can't find anywhere in the Bible where the Sabbath was said to set people apart.



to the New Testament, all the fight was in the old. So you only reference the new testament because you think that the old is irrelevant. They work together. The Sabbath points to the one and true God, the people who worship on the Sabbath were set apart, they worship and they did not allow anyone to profane that day, the gates were shut. No work was being done, Did not other folks see that. Today, it is the same, We Sabbath Keepers are at service on the Sabbath, we do not go out to eat, shop or work, nor do we ask anyone to do it for us.

But lets see what the new testament says about the commandments

First Commandment
Acts 14:11-15 Living and True God
1 Cor 8:4-6 Idol Nothing ----- One God
Second Commandment
1 Cor. 12:2 Gentiles - These Dumb Idols
1 Cor. 10:14 - Flee from Idolatry.
Acts 17:29- Ought not think God likes gold silver, etc.,
1 John 5:21 - keep yourselves from Idols
Third Commandment
James 5:12 Swear not--- Yea by Yea
Fourth Commandment
Heb 4:9 There Remain
Fifth Commandment
Eph. 6:2 Honour thy father and mother
Sixth Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shall not kill
Seventh Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shall not commit adultery
Eight Commandment
Rome 13:9 shall not steal
James 2:11
Ninth Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shalt not bear false witness
Tenth Commandment
Rome 13:9 Shall not covet

Eccl 12:13 Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Deut. 11:18, 19;3015, 16,
Rom. 2:13, 3:19, 20; James 1;25, Rom 7:7, 1 John 3:4, Rev 22:1 James 2:8-12; Ps 3730m 31

The Law of God can never pass away.
Matt 5:18
Ps 119-114, 152, 160; 1Chron 16:15-17; Ps. 111:7,8.

The Sabbath is a sign forever
Ex 31:16-17

- if your in Christ you are a new creature and you have been grafted into the tree, you are now a jew. You are part of the new covenant. which I will speak more in detail about.

 
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