Is dating or marrying down really a good idea? Be honest...

[StarScream35]

I've been wondering about this a lot. I know for many sistas there just aren't that many men on their level to go around but tis better to date down or just stay single?

I was also watching The Real HouseWives of Atlanta last night and whether Phaedra wants to admit it or not, she definitely married down. She tried to glorify her husbands job by calling him a Relocation Specialist but it sounded to me like he was a Repo man.

I just wonder if relationships like these really do work. All the women I know who date or marry down end up having some serious problems in the long run and eventually part ways. I just want to hear other women's experiences or whether you know someone in a similar situation.

 

[SoopremeBeing]

I like this question.

I personally try not to be shallow or superficial when it comes to men that are not at the same level as me, but in my experiences, it has caused many problems. Now I do not require that every man I meet has at least a Bachelor's and makes a lot of money, but I do need a man that has active ambition in pursing an education and career(legal careers of course). I cannot stand a man who is lazy or expects everything to be given to him for whatever reason.

 

[faithVA]

I think it depends on your values. The term marrying down to me has negative connotations and is really too broad. I do understand what is meant though, he either does not have the same level of education as I do or his salary is not as high as mine.

In my experience the only time it caused an issue is when the man did not have high enough self esteem and bought into this idea that because he did not have the same education then he felt threatened.

My own personal experience is men that loved what they do even though they were blue collar have treated me better than the white collar professionals I ran into.

I think when both people make a decent income to support themselves and to add to the couple that is enough for me. I'm not interested in whether you make more or I make more. I am also not interested in your education, but in your ambition and your self-development.

After you move so far up the ladder you do start to reduce the number of people that make as much as you. And narrowing the possibilities of having a good man in my life for a few dollars is not my value system.

 

[kim]

subscribing

 

[JayAnn0513]

Nope. It rarely works out in the end. I can think of at least 10 real life examples of women who married/ got engaged to men not on there level and only 2 are still together, only 1 is happy. I don't like those odds.

 

[caltron]

I think you have to be careful in defining what dating/marrying "down" means. If a doctor marries a teacher, is that marrying down? If a teacher marries a doctor that makes less money than her, is that marrying down? If a doctor marries a small business owner who is a high school drop out but is a millionaire, is that marrying down?

I think I know what you're getting at though. I would say that for a relationship to work, the two people have to have the same values and be able to relate to one another on the same level. Most doctors are not going to be able to relate to a janitor under any circumstance, so I would say it does not work in most cases.

 

[jeanghrey]

I think you have to be careful in defining what dating/marrying "down" means. If a doctor marries a teacher, is that marrying down? If a teacher marries a doctor that makes less money than her, is that marrying down? If a doctor marries a small business owner who is a high school drop out but is a millionaire, is that marrying down?

I think I know what you're getting at though. I would say that for a relationship to work, the two people have to have the same values and be able to relate to one another on the same level. Most doctors are not going to be able to relate to a janitor under any circumstance, so I would say it does not work in most cases.

Agree with the above; I think it only becomes a real issue when people hook up too quickly or based on superficial reasons (apollo's looks, phaedra's money for example) and wanting to maintain a certain image, after the smoke clears if there's not enough of a true emotional/spiritual/intellectual connection, it crumbles.

 

[Triniwegian]

If we are purely talking about educational level and his earning potential, I do not think it is a good idea to marry down...however.... I do not know a lot of men that can trump my education and earning potential at this point.
We keep talking about marrying up and finding a man with a great career, no kids, lots of money, own house, and great values. But where are they? Do you find them attractive? Do you share the same values? Is he honest? Do you share future plans?

There are so many things that needs to fall in to place for a relationship to work, if the money aspect is the only thing that is lacking but everything else is perfect, should you pass on the "one" because he makes less than you?
I would say no.

 

[Zaynab]

Phaedra married down educationally but not socially/culturally. That's why I am sure she and her husband connect and are able to make it work. They are cut from the same breed, she just "made it out".

 

[Syrah]

Phaedra married down educationally but not socially/culturally. That's why I am sure she and her husband connect and are able to make it work. They are cut from the same breed, she just "made it out".

I've always wondered why people accept Phaedra's tv persona as indicative of how she was raised and where she came from.

 

[Syrah]

I think people focus too much on "up and down" in terms of salaries and education levels rather than values and goals.

I would date/marry up or down in terms of education and finances, but in terms of values, up only. My first real boyfriend was a downgrade in terms of values and goals and I will never do that again. Ever. Despite how I felt about him, it was a waste of time and emotion.

Dating down in terms of values is NEVER a good idea.

 

[Syrah]

If we are purely talking about educational level and his earning potential, I do not think it is a good idea to marry down...however.... I do not know a lot of men that can trump my education and earning potential at this point.
We keep talking about marrying up and finding a man with a great career, no kids, lots of money, own house, and great values. But where are they? Do you find them attractive? Do you share the same values? Is he honest? Do you share future plans?

There are so many things that needs to fall in to place for a relationship to work, if the money aspect is the only thing that is lacking but everything else is perfect, should you pass on the "one" because he makes less than you?
I would say no.

I don't know why we act like attractiveness and educational/economic prowess are a sliding scale. The more education and money he has, the less likely we are to be attracted to him. As if the uber-successful brothers are all fat, cross-eyed, ego-centric and morally bankrupt and that we as black women have to choose either an attractive man or a successful man.

If a man's values are on point, his salary and education won't matter IMO. But for whatever reason, we tend to focus on salary and education first, and values later, when in reality, one has no bearing on the other.

In the beginning, it shouldn't matter where a man went to school, what his title is or whether he owns or rents. What's he do in his spare time, what's his relationship like with his family? What are his goals for a relationship? What does he dream about? What's he doing to make that stuff happen?

 

[ladysaraii]

I think people focus too much on "up and down" in terms of salaries and education levels rather than values and goals.

I would date/marry up or down in terms of education and finances, but in terms of values, up only. My first real boyfriend was a downgrade in terms of values and goals and I will never do that again. Ever. Despite how I felt about him, it was a waste of time and emotion.

Having said that education and salary can be indicative of values and goals. not definite by any means. Otherwise I generally agree with you to a point. I have a masters. I dont need to marry a man with a masters, but I'm also not looking to hook up with the brother with the GED working at the gas station either.

 

[Syrah]

Having said that education and salary can be indicative of values and goals. not definite by any means. Otherwise I generally agree with you to a point. I have a masters. I dont need to marry a man with a masters, but I'm also not looking to hook up with the brother with the GED working at the gas station either.

I hear you but I don't understand why the examples are always such extremes. No one's talking about Tyrone the cashier.

But it becomes a bit cloudier when its Tyrone the Real Estate agent (is he just an agent, or is he as serious about his agency as you are about your education), Tyrone the Plumber (does he just fit pipes or is he working to turn it into something) or Tyrone the Marine (is he just on the front lines or is he working to understand some aspect of the Corps that can benefit him in the future).

The values are what matter, but for whatever reason, we're stuck on the title, the income, the diploma.

 

[faithVA]

I hear you but I don't understand why the examples are always such extremes. No one's talking about Tyrone the cashier.

But it becomes a bit cloudier when its Tyrone the Real Estate agent (is he just an agent, or is he as serious about his agency as you are about your education), Tyrone the Plumber (does he just fit pipes or is he working to build a business securing large government contracts or become a copper plumbing supplier) or Tyrone the Marine (is he just on the front lines or is he working to transitioning that to work as a government contract negotiator for private companies).

The values are what matter, but for whatever reason, we're stuck on the title, the income, the diploma.

Unfortunately nowhere in the original post is it stated what marrying down is. So is it money or is it education or is it career? And how far down is marrying down?

So since there isn't much defined in the original post each person has to answer based on what they think the OP meant or from some previous thread.

 

[MD_Lady]

If a woman uses the phrase "dating down" to describe her current relationship, she needs to be with someone else. It's true that not every woman requires a man to have the same (or higher) level of education, income, or employment status (i.e. white collar), but the woman who pretends like these things don't matter to avoid being called shallow isn't doing herself (or her partner) any favors.

 

[faithVA]

If a woman uses the phrase "dating down" to describe her current relationship, she needs to be with someone else. It's true that not every woman requires a man to have the same (or higher) level of education, income, or employment status (i.e. white collar), but the woman who pretends like these things don't matter to avoid being called shallow isn't doing herself (or her partner) any favors.

I agree with the idea if she thinks she is marrying down. I would also include if he thinks he is marrying up. If either see it as other than an equal partnership, they will have trouble.

 

[MD_Lady]

I agree with the idea if she thinks she is marrying down. I would also include if he thinks he is marrying up. If either see it as other than an equal partnership, they will have trouble.

Yup. Assigning a different level of importance to each attribute and choosing a mate based on your priorities is cool. Talking yourself out of seeking a quality in a mate that you feel is important (and constantly feeling like he doesn't "measure up" as a result) is not.

 

[aribell]

I agree about the values bit. That's where you either connect or you don't.

Not everyone who makes money cares about money. People can choose to organize their lives around whatever principles they believe in. Having a certain degree doesn't automatically dictate your goals and values. I think it's very possible for women who believe they've achieved something to then have a set of ideas about how they are supposed to be, what they are supposed to value, what they supposedly deserve.

IMO and IME, sometimes things just click with a person for reasons you don't even understand, and the person who's "supposed" to be your match isn't for reasons you also don't understand. So the question is, do *you* like him and feel like you all are on the same page? If yes, then let it flow. (Toni Braxton in my head now)

Sent from my LS670 using LS670

 

[chocolat79]

It depends on what you're using as a basis for marrying up/down; however, if it's extreme, it doesn't matter what basis is used because it won't work, IMO.

If it's education/intelligence (they're not the same, but I'm lumping them together for the sake of space)...if you're into talking about current events and he's into talking about rap/hip hop/sports/gaming, probably not going to work. If it's salary, if you're making double what he's making and he's content to make that and isn't trying to advance, then probably not going to work.

Now, if your values are totally different, it can even be subtle things that will cause it not to work. It's marrying down if they're not making you better in some way...encouragement, upbuiliding, upgrading, etc. If they're bringing your quality of life down, that won't work.

To answer your questions...no, it's not a good idea and yes it's better to stay single. I'd rather be miserable single, than miserable married. At least I can do what I want and can find some temporary happiness without having to worry about someone else. But that's just me.

 

[ladysaraii]

I hear you but I don't understand why the examples are always such extremes. No one's talking about Tyrone the cashier.

But it becomes a bit cloudier when its Tyrone the Real Estate agent (is he just an agent, or is he as serious about his agency as you are about your education), Tyrone the Plumber (does he just fit pipes or is he working to turn it into something) or Tyrone the Marine (is he just on the front lines or is he working to understand some aspect of the Corps that can benefit him in the future).

The values are what matter, but for whatever reason, we're stuck on the title, the income, the diploma.

Unfortunately its b/c people are. Yeah people are talking about Tyrone the plumber or mechanic, but there are plenty of people who are telling women (especially black women of a certain age) to settle for tyrone the cashier.

I think this is really where definitions come into play b/c I wouldnt necessarily consider the blue collar man as marrying down.

 

[Raspberry]

I hear you but I don't understand why the examples are always such extremes. No one's talking about Tyrone the cashier.

But it becomes a bit cloudier when its Tyrone the Real Estate agent (is he just an agent, or is he as serious about his agency as you are about your education), Tyrone the Plumber (does he just fit pipes or is he working to turn it into something) or Tyrone the Marine (is he just on the front lines or is he working to understand some aspect of the Corps that can benefit him in the future).

The values are what matter, but for whatever reason, we're stuck on the title, the income, the diploma.

I agree. I know a lot of white women who make more money then the men they're married to but they usually fall into the cloudy category. Like I know a few couples where both of them have college degrees but the woman makes more in her chosen field.

I also know quite a few where the woman is in a white collar job but their husband is blue collar..the husband may or may not make more than his wife, depending. School teachers married to male contractors, Accountants married to plumbers, etc. I also know a few white women whose husbands lost their jobs and they're carrying things financially.

The reason I bring up white women is because there seems to be this idea that all white women are finding men who easily outrank them financially and in this current culture and economy that seriously is not the case across the board.

 

[Syrah]

I agree. I know a lot of white women who make more money then the men they're married to but they usually fall into the cloudy category. Like I know a few couples where both of them have college degrees but the woman makes more in her chosen field.

I also know quite a few where the woman is in a white collar job but their husband is blue collar..the husband may or may not make more than his wife, depending. School teachers married to male contractors, Accountants married to plumbers, etc. I also know a few white women whose husbands lost their jobs and they're carrying things financially.

The reason I bring up white women is because there seems to be this idea that all white women are finding men who easily outrank them financially and in this current culture and economy that seriously is not the case across the board.

Exactly. On LHCF you'd believe that black women are the only ones marrying men whom they out-earn.

It isn't just black women. Its women.

 

[Ivonnovi]

I had a real close family member marry down. She married a mental midget. I swear his "I've been a man since I was 9" attitude is f'n annoying. She's now functioning on his level and I find it very frustrating. I find him controlling and insecure. (in all these years he very damn well could have learn't to read (better)....small example)

It was her choice, some how they feed a need in each other but some 25+ years later I can still see the flaws in this relationship. Oh and they f'd their kids up too. (I know this first hand).

With that said. You have to very careful if you marry "down"; especially in determinig which categories you're comprimising. ....and especially if the "down" party has any lingering insecurities regarding their "down" areas.

 

[faithVA]

I'm just not feeling the term marrying down. Anyway ... If we are talking about my marrying the cashier or someone with a minimum wage job or in that range then no that would make no sense. As in my first post he has to be able to take care of himself and in a decent manner.

I need @Brighteyes35 to come in and tell me whether we are talking about Tyrone the cashier or his cousin James who works in manufacturing or what?

 

[curlycoquette]

I think the values thing taps into semantics. Especially depending on what those "values" are. Furthermore, betting on men with equal or better values in the hopes that said values will one day parlay them into a better socioeconomic, cultural, or educational standard is evidence that these things are indeed important on some level. So much so that we're using values as a means to secure (and sustain) an end.

At any rate, I'm not getting in the business of telling anyone what they should and should not view as important in terms of marrying up or down. That is highly individual, and it's really no one else's place to determine that for another. There's no right or wrong answer. We all had (or have) our negotiables and non-negotiables and it's best to be introspective, and decide which things fall into which category for you. Marrying down based off of any of one's non-negotiables is a really bad idea IME.

 

[Fine 4s]

I agree about the values bit. That's where you either connect or you don't.

Not everyone who makes money cares about money. People can choose to organize their lives around whatever principles they believe in. Having a certain degree doesn't automatically dictate your goals and values. I think it's very possible for women who believe they've achieved something to then have a set of ideas about how they are supposed to be, what they are supposed to value, what they supposedly deserve.

IMO and IME, sometimes things just click with a person for reasons you don't even understand, and the person who's "supposed" to be your match isn't for reasons you also don't understand. So the question is, do *you* like him and feel like you all are on the same page? If yes, then let it flow. (Toni Braxton in my head now)

Sent from my LS670 using LS670

I agree about the values bit. That's where you either connect or you don't.

Not everyone who makes money cares about money. People can choose to organize their lives around whatever principles they believe in. Having a certain degree doesn't automatically dictate your goals and values. I think it's very possible for women who believe they've achieved something to then have a set of ideas about how they are supposed to be, what they are supposed to value, what they supposedly deserve.

IMO and IME, sometimes things just click with a person for reasons you don't even understand, and the person who's "supposed" to be your match isn't for reasons you also don't understand. So the question is, do *you* like him and feel like you all are on the same page? If yes, then let it flow. (Toni Braxton in my head now)

Sent from my LS670 using LS670

This spoke to me. I always THOUGHT I'd find someone with a similar education background (MBA) in the corporate world, making 6 figures or more! Strangely (or not so strange) that has never happened for me. With each step of my education, I didn't always date someone with the same education. In college, I sometimes dated men who were also in college or just 'hung' out on college campuses LOL.

Right now, I'm with someone who has been in law enforcement for about 20 years, owns his own home, healthy investment egg, and has very lil' debt. I'm sure he's making more money than I am even with a darn masters!!!! Bad investment on my part. I hope to earn more (this job ain't cutting it) and have ambitions of starting a business. I know he went to college, but not sure he finished and well...it doesn't bother me. My ex, I considered one of the most brilliant men I've EVER met, never went to college.

However, with the current SO, our personalities and cultural background click VERY VERY well. I've never dated a Haitian man, and I'm Haitian (and vice versa.) Certain things we 'get' that I could never share with a non-Haitian. We both chuckle about that fact. However, our family values are aligned, our views on life, religion, travel, parenting, financial and self-improvement/betterment are also aligned. I'd be lying if I said it never crossed my mind about whether I should hold out for the 'corporate' man but einh, I'm happy.

OK one last dream- The wife that stands proudly as her husband receives an award for some great corporate accomplishment. *sigh* But who is also being cheated on. <end nightmare>

 

[Fine 4s]

Also, let's not forget that not all of us (men and women) have the same options as someone else in the same financial, educational or values realm. Reading the post from Ivonnovi, I know people like that. The folks I'm thinking about, their options in the dating pool are limited primarily because of physical attractiveness (both men and women.)

So, whatever reasons people have to do what they do, are theirs and only theirs to understand. If they're happy, that's all that matters....even if they can't see the craziness like a pig in mud....lol For example, I can't be as picky as I would be in my twenties cuz my clock is TICKING, TICKING, TICKING. That chance of meeting that man with no kids, 6 figures and a house in the burbs is looking miiiiiiiiiiighty slim these days lololol Circumstances in life force you to make the best decision you can given the information you know at that point in time. When context changes so do life decisions/choices...The sooner folks accept that harsh reality, the happier they'll be IMO.

What's that saying: If you can't love the one you want, love the one you're with

 

[Fine 4s]

I think the values thing taps into semantics. Especially depending on what those "values" are. Furthermore, betting on men with equal or better values in the hopes that said values will one day parlay them into a better socioeconomic, cultural, or educational standard is evidence that these things are indeed important on some level. So much so that we're using values as a means to secure (and sustain) an end.

At any rate, I'm not getting in the business of telling anyone what they should and should not view as important in terms of marrying up or down. That is highly individual, and it's really no one else's place to determine that for another. There's no right or wrong answer. We all had (or have) our negotiables and non-negotiables and it's best to be introspective, and decide which things fall into which category for you. Marrying down based off of any of one's non-negotiables is a really bad idea IME.

I'm not sure what we're talkign about when we use the term 'values.' My understanding is that values are fixed views which govern our actions like having integrity, not stealing or whatever other values we may have. As such, anything that can change such as earning potential can't be part of a value system....just a thought.

 

[StarScream35]

faithVA

Marrying down is a popular term that's being used in the black community on a frequent basis these days. I get what you are saying about not feeling it but I think most sistas really know what marrying down is all about. It can be both income and education or one of the other. Because there are so many more successful black women than black men, lots of people are telling sistas with higher incomes or educations to get with Tyquell the cashier, Tyrone the wannabe rapper or producer (whichever one comes first). Having lived in Atlanta, every other brother I met was "self employed" and trying to be a rapper or producer..............come on now!! Someone brought up white women but I won't use white women as an example because on the whole, white men typically meet the challenge to come up to where their women are. I know white women who are making $80,000 and are married to cops who are making $30,000, to me this is different because although he makes less, he still has a career and making money. I got into a serious argument with a black man who said educated black women deserved to be in the boat they are in because they refused to date black men with high school educations or less (never mind I was dating his ignorant black a$$, guess he was too dumb to realize that), I was like are you serious!! That isn't even realistic butthole. Although it happens because of the circumstances in our community, it really isn't realistic. Sometimes I think this mindset serves to keep black women in a certain position and it's sad.