is being a man's WIFE being watered down? does it really MEAN ANYTHING?

kurlybella

kurlybella

Well-Known Member
i often see women who are the baby's mother to a man's children say that being married is no biggie - that their lives are no different than the married woman/mother - the only difference is that "it didn't work out" so they are now having to co-parent.

i've even heard some women say that women who are married sometimes think they are better than women who are not married - but that they should not feel that way because married women/mothers are no different than women who not married.

now we have this show called "basketball wives", but seems to me that in reality it should be called basketball baby mama's and former jumpoffs.

of course shaunie would not want to call her show basketball baby mama's seeing as the title wife still holds a connotation in society that unmarried woman with child does not. even ex-wife holds a connotation considered higher than baby mama.

i'm not making any statements about what i think baby mama or/vs wife means; only asking questions.

so, what do you think? do you think that being a wife is starting become "the same thing" as being a mans baby's mama? and if it is, why do some women get defensive when they have to admit that they have children by a man that they are not married to though they claim that wife and non-wife are the same?

should a woman/mother who is married feel an "esteem" that the non-married with child has? or vice versa?

and if they are the same, do you think this keeps some women from marrying since they have "everything" that the married woman has?
 
I think it's safe to say that everyone knows that being married is not the same as being a baby's mother/baby's father. Being married has legal consequences that are recognized by the government (taxes, social security).

I have read, only on this site, that married women with children talk down to or act like they are better than unmarried women with children. I have not personally seen that play out in reality.
 
It means what YOU want it to mean... :)

You and your DH, that is....:)

Now as for the esteem of being married over those who are not, I've never understood that in total...but I suspect its due in part to feeling like being in the in crowd....perhaps the other alternative they felt invisible, and now magically have license to..."express themselves"...

I've seen woman turn really ugly while hiding behind that rang...*bling*bling*

Moving on...:look:

I was watching "Mona Lisa Smiles" an hour ago... questioning women's roles, choices...et cetera... so this is on my mind... (all that woman subterfuge passing as sisterhood)
 
kurlybella said:
so, what do you think? do you think that being a wife is starting become "the same thing" as being a mans baby's mama?
Being a wife and a baby's mama is not and will never be the same.


should a woman/mother who is married feel an "esteem" that the non-married with child has?
No, but they often do. Marriage is a beautiful thing but your value should come from who you are as a person, not your marital status.
Click to expand...

Answers are italicized above.
 
JFemme said:
It means what YOU want it to mean... :)

You and your DH, that is....:)

Now as for the esteem of being married over those who are not, I've never understood that in total...but I suspect its due in part to feeling like being in the in crowd....perhaps the other alternative they felt invisible, and now magically have license to..."express themselves"...

I've seen woman turn really ugly while hiding behind that rang...*bling*bling*

Moving on...:look:

I was watching "Mona Lisa Smiles" an hour ago... questioning women's roles, choices...et cetera... so this is on my mind... (all that woman subterfuge passing as sisterhood)
Click to expand...

I caught about 15 minutes of that movie a few days ago, now I want to rent it.:yep:
 
I think it's different for everyone. Of course there is a huge difference in my head but who can say (or really care) what is going on in the head of the next person?
 
ITA that it means what the person wants it to mean. Honestly, I think a lot of people want to get married but they are scared. It is easy to leave or threaten to put someone out if you are not married. Also, I have noticed a trend online and IRL of people calling themselves husband and wife even though they are shacking. It just sounds so much better than baby momma/baby. LHCF seems to be very anti-babymama. I'm sure some of the "wives" on here are really babymamas. But in LHCF defense, I've seen it play out in real life. People are quick to throw it in a woman's face that "he won't even marry you."

Bottom line, marriage does still matter. I think a lot of people are put off because they've heard about abuse or cheating, just plain horrible marriages that you stay in only because you are married. They want the authentication per se, but not all the baggage that comes with it.
 
I think that they are not the same because socially, being married is more acceptable than being in love and procreating with someone who didn't legally bind themselves to you.

And I don't think it's a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with society encouraging a legal, lifetime commitment between two individuals that love and respect each other. Especially if there are children involved.

But...marriage doesn't always = a happy relationship.

Married women with a feeling of SUPERIORITY (IMO) = A woman who was not complete in HERSELF before she got married.

Married woman with a feeling of SECURITY = A woman getting what she needs from her marriage, and probably not worried about who is and who isn't legally wed.

And honestly, some women envy the title of "MRS". They might think marriage means "he really loves me and he'll never leave or treat me bad." Or they crave that approval from society, and in their OWN mind believe that they are "less" because they aren't married. And it's not always a "babymama" who feels that way. Some women just want to be married to say that they are.

Bottom line: A woman complete in herself will not seek validation of their relationship from an outside source (wife, baby-mama, common law wife, life partner, etc)
 
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If given the chance, I'd bet that most baby mommas would have wanted to be wives when they loved the man they procreated with. Baby momma's dissing marriage is a sour grapes situation.
 
LHCF is VERY anti baby mama and seems to carry this crazy notion that women who have children out of wedlock are second class. Its simply not true. While marriage can be a positive, it can SURELY be a can of worms....just go look in the relationship forum for example. Some of the same women who brag about being married are some of the most unhappiest women on this forum.

I've never seen the mentality that is LHCF in real life, I'm a single parent and trust me when I say I thank nobody but GOD that I didnt marry any male that have approached me thus far in my 28 years (although this current guy I'm talking to seems to have potential...but thats a whole other thread cause idk if I'm feeling him...am I rambling here? yeah I am *sigh*) I could have married men out of pressure or feelings of obligation and who knows how that would have affected my kids if it turned out to be a miserable connection. Why live like that? Just to feel like I achieved someone elses goals and desires? Nope. no thank you.
Anywho My girlfriends that are married are MISERABLE (but they ALL play the game to others that they are so inlove and marriage is great which probably makes it worse because they cant BE real because of the way society would treat THEM...vicious cycle) hell one friend sleeps in a whole nother room and her and her husband are only 27 an 30 year olds. smh. Imagine that home in 10, 20 years, sheesh

I think alot of women on THIS forum seem to think that every women wants to rush into marriage. Dont believe the hype. Single parents tend to get a bad rep and all put in the same box but just as all marriages arent the same so is the situation with single parents. Marriage is great if it is mature and God driven, if not then its just two people physically residing in the same building.

But the real question is why does this type of thread always pop up on LHCF?? What is the fascination with someone elses life situation?? I dont have time to worry about married women and other single parents and I'm not going to put forth energy in downplaying someone elses life just because in MY mind they havent made it to the level I think they should be on to be happy. I guess I just dont get it, but hey, to each its own. and yes I ramble :)
 
Financially and legally there's still a big difference in most countries, even in a progressive country like mine.

What it means for the actual relationship will of course differ from couple to couple...

As women, we are enough with or without a husband, children or a fancy job title etc. It's up to each individual to find that out. Life is a journey and we're fortunate to have the freedom to explore whatever lifestyle we're curious about.
 
NaturalDetroit said:
LHCF is VERY anti baby mama and seems to carry this crazy notion that women who have children out of wedlock are second class. Its simply not true. While marriage can be a positive, it can SURELY be a can of worms....just go look in the relationship forum for example. Some of the same women who brag about being married are some of the most unhappiest women on this forum.

I've never seen the mentality that is LHCF in real life, I'm a single parent and trust me when I say I thank nobody but GOD that I didnt marry any male that have approached me thus far in my 28 years (although this current guy I'm talking to seems to have potential...but thats a whole other thread cause idk if I'm feeling him...am I rambling here? yeah I am *sigh*) I could have married men out of pressure or feelings of obligation and who knows how that would have affected my kids if it turned out to be a miserable connection. Why live like that? Just to feel like I achieved someone elses goals and desires? Nope. no thank you.
Anywho My girlfriends that are married are MISERABLE (but they ALL play the game to others that they are so inlove and marriage is great which probably makes it worse because they cant BE real because of the way society would treat THEM...vicious cycle) hell one friend sleeps in a whole nother room and her and her husband are only 27 an 30 year olds. smh. Imagine that home in 10, 20 years, sheesh

I think alot of women on THIS forum seem to think that every women wants to rush into marriage. Dont believe the hype. Single parents tend to get a bad rep and all put in the same box but just as all marriages arent the same so is the situation with single parents. Marriage is great if it is mature and God driven, if not then its just two people physically residing in the same building.

But the real question is why does this type of thread always pop up on LHCF?? What is the fascination with someone elses life situation?? I dont have time to worry about married women and other single parents and I'm not going to put forth energy in downplaying someone elses life just because in MY mind they havent made it to the level I think they should be on to be happy. I guess I just dont get it, but hey, to each its own. and yes I ramble :)
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I think what is going on at LHCF is largely due to the Christian nature of the board. Most Christian denominations frown on pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex. It's not that they have a problem with a woman having a child out-of-wedlock, it's that the out-of-wedlock nature of the pregnancy provides prima facie evidence of sinful behavior and that is where the judgment is coming from.

As a Catholic, pre-marital sex is sinful behavior. I was once asked about the church's stance on pre-marital sex. My response is that much of the biblically-based admonitions on sexual behavior are spot on when you look at the long-term effects of a large number of out-of-wedlock pregnancies on families and communities as a whole. Their response is that I have been listening to those white priests too long. But, it is not hard to buy into the idea that we should not be having, for example, 70% of our kids out-of-wedlock. One look at the state of black communities and black families should tell you that without picking up a bible. The preferred status of the marital bond both in law and social mores is a recognition of this fact.

Of course, I tend to mostly avoid these conversations because I generally do not believe in proselytizing. I tend to focus on my own sin and let others worry about theirs.
 
Dragone said:
A marriage/partnership is only as valid as the feelings of the participant.
Click to expand...

My brother just said to this "No, that's not true. You also have a license, witnesses and the government validating your marriage. Regardless of how much you cheat or say your not with your DH/DW, unless you have that divorce you're still married. If your other half gets evidence of the acts, its going to hurt you more than them in the end.

With a baby mama/daddy situation, all you have to do is care for the children. You can leave at any time and nobody can do really anything about it."

All the men here at my home say "We will never view a babymama the same as a wife. A few might say it to babymamas to make her feel good or trick her into staying committed without him really committing to her, but if he finds a woman he believes can be his wife, babymama is short."
 
:yep: I absolutely agree. Strong marriages= strong communities crime goes down, wealth goes up, there is a balance. What gets me is the intent that is behind these thought provoking :rolleyes: conversations. Women are the backbone to society (black women especially) and we tend to love to find some way to seperate one person from another. Strong marriages are awesome but dont try to make it seem as though being a wife is being the queen and being a single parent is being the... janitorial help:lachen:
Because both women have strong obligations in their particular roles and can certainly learn from each other
great post with good point :yep:
HappilyLiberal said:
I think what is going on at LHCF is largely due to the Christian nature of the board. Most Christian denominations frown on pre-marital sex and extra-marital sex. It's not that they have a problem with a woman having a child out-of-wedlock, it's that the out-of-wedlock nature of the pregnancy provides prima facie evidence of sinful behavior and that is where the judgment is coming from.

As a Catholic, pre-marital sex is sinful behavior. I was once asked about the church's stance on pre-marital sex. My response is that much of the biblically-based admonitions on sexual behavior are spot on when you look at the long-term effects of a large number of out-of-wedlock pregnancies on families and communities as a whole. Their response is that I have been listening to those white priests too long. But, it is not hard to buy into the idea that we should not be having, for example, 70% of our kids out-of-wedlock. One look at the state of black communities and black families should tell you that without picking up a bible. The preferred status of the marital bond both in law and social mores is a recognition of this fact.

Of course, I tend to mostly avoid these conversations because I generally do not believe in proselytizing. I tend to focus on my own sin and let others worry about theirs.
Click to expand...
 
NaturalDetroit said:
:yep: I absolutely agree. Strong marriages= strong communities crime goes down, wealth goes up, there is a balance. What gets me is the intent that is behind these thought provoking :rolleyes: conversations. Women are the backbone to society (black women especially) and we tend to love to find some way to seperate one person from another. Strong marriages are awesome but dont try to make it seem as though being a wife is being the queen and being a single parent is being the... janitorial help
Because both women have strong obligations in their particular roles and can certainly learn from each other
great post with good point :yep:
Click to expand...


ITA w/ the bolded.

I've had a few times on the forum, when I have thought: "Someone married this jackal !?!"

Being married doesn't automatically a kind/mature/virtuous person.

It only means you look like more of an @-ss when you are caught doing dirt.:look:
 
I've never encountered married women who thought they were better than baby mama's IRL. But, I have seen baby mama's being defensive about why they chose to live in and not marry. I see both as equal responsibilities, marriage just holds more legalities. And as a married woman, there are benefits that you are entitled to that being a live in will never get you. So no, being a wife is not the same as being just a man's baby mama, legally. Yes, they can leave the man without having to divorce, but if their are children involved there will still more than likely be some sort of legal proceeding for him to provide support to the child/ren.
 
Being a wife will mean something as long as 1) the government says so 2) the religious community keeps it's level of influence and says so.

Being a "baby momma" will continue to be seen as "lesser" for the same reasons.
 
No its not the same and it never will be. I think one of the most important things we have to do in our community is to stop justifying the epidemic of 70% of our children being raised in single parent households. Its NOT okay. Its destructive to our communities, its creating generation upon generation of children with a void in their spirit where their fathers should be.

When a little girl is raised with no father figure in the home....it has a huge and lasting impact. She will not have an example of what a loving marriage looks like or what a responsible father does and she has an extremely high likelihood of perpetuating the baby-momma cycle when she is of child-bearing age.

Raising a child is not a one person job....and it seems that so many Black women have resigned themselves to the notion that it is. If we want our communities to prosper....the most important thing we have to do is make it a priority to have complete loving black families be the norm.
 
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babyb900 said:
My brother just said to this "No, that's not true. You also have a license, witnesses and the government validating your marriage. Regardless of how much you cheat or say your not with your DH/DW, unless you have that divorce you're still married. If your other half gets evidence of the acts, its going to hurt you more than them in the end.
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*Marriage advocate here, but I think there are two sides to the happy ending*

The bold is true, but if also means you have the accept the oppositie side of the coin. If you have a husband or wife who acts crazy, cheats, is irresponsible with money, is socially inept, etc, expect to also suffer from it. There are major benefits to marriage and they also come with pitfalls just as big if you pick wrong. I have seen more married women dragged into unhappy situations, cheating drama, bankruptcy, and tumultous living situations than single women. If you choose wrong its gonna be a doosy an in some way you will be dragged down by the inherent moral nature of the person you attached yourself to.

That's what I interpreted from the *only as valid as the feelings of the people in the relationship*
 
I think folks are responding to two different questions here: Is being a wife different from being a baby mama? And is being a baby mama less than being a wife?

To the latter, married women should certainly not look down on single women with children. Being married does not enhance your worth as a human being, as others have said. As to the first question, yes it is very different. It is different legally and in the eyes of the church. And those who have lived together and then gotten married will tell you that quite often it just "feels different." (I've read that here on this board.) That legalization, taking your vows before God, etc. changes one's perspective on the relationship.
 
kurlybella said:
so, what do you think? do you think that being a wife is starting become "the same thing" as being a mans baby's mama?
Click to expand...
Honestly I think it depends on the marriage. Some men treat their wives the way they would treat a "baby mama." But I personally think that for some odd reason, being a man's wife doesn't carry the same weight it does.


and if it is, why do some women get defensive when they have to admit that they have children by a man that they are not married to though they claim that wife and non-wife are the same?
Click to expand...

I think they get defensive because society still doesn't view baby mamas in a positive light. But I think they insist that the wife and baby mama are the same so as not to feel bad about themselves. Sometimes though in certain situations they are THE SAME.

should a woman/mother who is married feel an "esteem" that the non-married with child has? or vice versa?
Click to expand...
No. I have seen this and I often wondered why this was the case. In particular I see it most often when a woman has found out that her husband is cheating on her. She then will tell the mistress and others that she is still in a position of superiority because SHE is the one he comes home to at night. That line of thinking always baffles me because it doesn't seem like that puts her in a position of superiority. if he's cheating, then whether he comes home to you or not at night, he is putting you and the mistress/baby mama in the same category. Period. He doesn't have much respect for either woman.

and if they are the same, do you think this keeps some women from marrying since they have "everything" that the married woman has?
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Possibly. I mean studies have shown that men AND women are not get married as much now because they create relationships where they can have everything they would have as a married couple without getting married. If the mistress can get sex on a regular, and money, and a house, and other stuff, and a child, then why WOULD she want to get married? in her eyes she has the easy role. She doesn't have to cook and clean on a regular basis, wash his dirty undies, and all that other "boring" stuff that wives have to do. (and no I'm not saying that it IS boring, I'm just saying that some baby mamas/mistresses look at it in that light)
 
This is just one more thing for women to be competitive over. It plays out on this board all of the time! How many thread are dedicated on how to get a man? How many degrees you have to have to get a man. How much you need to weigh to get a man, blahblahblah. Men are certainly seen as prize, and if you manage to get one to marry you, you get an extra big cookie.

Some of the dynamics on this board (in regards to the wife/baby mama topic) are strange. I definitely think some women like to play on others insecurities. So you have women praising the merits of marriage while looking down their noses at the single ladies, then going over to the relationship forum to whine about their awful husband. Because even if they are living in their own little hell, at least they can feel superior to somebody!

On the other hand, well, the hit dog hollers, right? If you are not feeling insecure about being a single mom, you won't care, and you will keep in it moving. Our society is basically set up so that it would be hard for you NOT to feel a little insecure about it sometimes. I'm not saying that's fair, it's just the truth.
 
I have a co-worker who is white and her boyfriend is Hispanic. She is prejudice with racist tendencies (lol). She is having a hard time coming to terms that she is just a baby mama. She is one of the flirtatious white women who you should feel its an honor to be in her presence. However, I noticed that when ever we are at work and she is making calls for her bfs business, she always describes herself as his fiance. She is all for claiming that she doesn't want to get married only because he has made it clear that he has no intentions of marrying her.

My point is, a lot of women put lip-service on seeing marriage and living together as being the same thing. All these women have done is accepted that living together will be their reality and as far as the relationship will go. Women are completely different than men. There are rare exceptions, but you can not tell me that a woman like I described above (late 20s, 2 year old child, well-off bf) would not want to get married at that stage in her life. I am just not buying it. Regardless of where the bf is in his life. The woman would want to be married. Period.

ETA: I am very single and w/o a single prospect in sight. So I am not looking my nose down at anyone.
 
I think some people attempt to water down the title of 'wife' because they wish to be married and/or are insecure about their own situation. The title still carries weight and marriage is still important, imo. If it were not so, why do television programs about wedding and nuclear families still on the air? Why are so many benefits to being married? Why does the term 'baby-momma' carry a stigma? A lot of people don't use that term pridefully. A certain subsect does.

Now, it is true that some want to get married just to say that they are married, some have turned down proposals (like myself) but all in all, being someone's wife is important. And it does mean something. Lots of women still chase after the ring.

ITA agree with BMP about justifying the OOW rate in the black community. I'm actually embarassed about it.
 
kurlybella said:
so, what do you think? do you think that being a wife is starting become "the same thing" as being a mans baby's mama? and if it is, why do some women get defensive when they have to admit that they have children by a man that they are not married to though they claim that wife and non-wife are the same?
Click to expand...

Not at all. What I noticed about the examples you gave was that the UNmarried women were the ones claiming there was no difference between what their status was... while nearly every married woman I know will say there is a huge difference between being their man's girlfriend/baby's mother/etc., and wife.

So... just because the unmarried women say that there's no difference... it doesn't make it true. Sorry. And yes, that's why those women become defensive because they KNOW there's a difference.

should a woman/mother who is married feel an "esteem" that the non-married with child has? or vice versa?
Click to expand...
No, there shouldn't be any greater sense of esteem by the married woman about her status. Just being married doesn't mean that the relationship is wonderful and loving and all that jazz. Plus, some women got married just to say they're married, so I don't say that marriage alone makes a woman "better than."

That being said... going back to my original point... I think the married woman has every right to say (if someone says that there's no difference) that being a WIFE does give her a leg up in a societal sense than being a baby mama/longtime girlfriend. Whether we like it or not, it's true. There are legal and social benefits that a wife receives that the others don't. It doesn't make the wife better than the other women, but it is what it is.
 
The two in that relationship are what makes both positions of husband and wife of importance or not.

This is what is wrong and why I don't like TV. It is shown to the masses a microcosim of some peoples lifestyle.

But if folks really knew how many healthy, vibrant and respectful relationships there were we would be amazed. That is unfortunate.

Please don't let the Maury Povich's and Basketball Wives show work your nerves, mind and psyche about what is real and what is not.

At the end of the day it is what you and your mate determine or what you want out of a mate and not willing to settle for and not all the sparkly, shiney stuff.

I was talking to my friends yesterday as we were sitting at a restaurant on the beach and just below us a wedding was taking place and they starting discussing what they wanted and I was just amazed neither was willing to settle. Now for them they are now approaching 40 this year and there was a time they both wanted their own children and marriage but they both said that was in their plan but it just didn't happen.

It didn't make them any less women, they are intelligent, beautiful and professionally accomplished.

I guess you have to determine what you are willing to deal with and settle for.
 
IMO this is the hierarchy
1) wife
2) co-parents (no longer together but both care for kids)
3) ex wife
4) super long term gf/fiancee (live-in)
5) baby mama
 
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