is being a man's WIFE being watered down? does it really MEAN ANYTHING?

[aribell]

I think the relative merit/hardship of each situation has to do with the fact that there are children involved. I don't really think it is or should be a question of which scenario is better for the children, provided that both situations are safe and healthy. I also think that single motherhood is not necessarily looked down upon so much as pitied, and with reason, imo...though people don't like to receive other people's sympathies.

But honestly, I do think there is both superiority and a lot of assumptions made about single mothers or "baby mommas," both of which I have found to be generally unwarranted. With the divorce rate being what it is, people shouldn't look down their noses too far at who they perceive to be beneath them lest they find themselves in exactly the same situation a few years down the line. We love to boast of things that have not been proven yet (how do you really know how well you can "keep" a man until you've actually achieved decades of a successful marriage? Our standards for having bragging rights are way too low...but I digress). Nor should people assume that a single mother provides an unstable home or is in constant financial hardship. You can't know someone's financial situation or their stability until you are in their home, know their salary, etc. Both married mothers and single mothers have to try their darndest to be successful as parents.

But in answer to the op, no I don't see the role of wife being watered down. I see marriage in general becoming irrelevant to some people, but for those who actually enter into it, the significance seems to remain.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

My point is, a lot of women put lip-service on seeing marriage and living together as being the same thing. All these women have done is accepted that living together will be their reality and as far as the relationship will go. Women are completely different than men. There are rare exceptions, but you can not tell me that a woman like I described above (late 20s, 2 year old child, well-off bf) would not want to get married at that stage in her life. I am just not buying it. Regardless of where the bf is in his life. The woman would want to be married. Period.

.

I agree. I said this on another forum and I got flamed.

 

[bluewater01]

IMO this is the hierarchy
1) wife
2) co-parents (no longer together but both care for kids)
3) ex wife
4) super long term gf/fiancee (live-in)
5) baby mama

I hate to say it, but ever since I've been engaged, I really feel that hierarchy. Even strangers view me differently. People's faces really light up when they see that you're getting married. I also feel differently than I thought I would. Before being engaged, I really thought that I would feel the same as I did as a girlfriend but it is way different. There are so many more perks and you feel respected in a whole new way.

 

[Bunny77]

I hate to say it, but ever since I've been engaged, I really feel that hierarchy. Even strangers view me differently. People's faces really light up when they see that you're getting married. I also feel differently than I thought I would. Before being engaged, I really thought that I would feel the same as I did as a girlfriend but it is way different. There are so many more perks and you feel respected in a whole new way.

It's only been one week for me, but I am also having this experience.

I'm just as cool and awesome as I was one week ago, but I swear, I'm getting a different reception.

And congrats!

 

[Kurlee]

I think that they are not the same because socially, being married is more acceptable than being in love and procreating with someone who didn't legally bind themselves to you.

And I don't think it's a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with society encouraging a legal, lifetime commitment between two individuals that love and respect each other. Especially if there are children involved.

But...marriage doesn't always = a happy relationship.

Married women with a feeling of SUPERIORITY (IMO) = A woman who was not complete in HERSELF before she got married.

Married woman with a feeling of SECURITY = A woman getting what she needs from her marriage, and probably not worried about who is and who isn't legally wed.

And honestly, some women envy the title of "MRS". They might think marriage means "he really loves me and he'll never leave or treat me bad." Or they crave that approval from society, and in their OWN mind believe that they are "less" because they aren't married. And it's not always a "babymama" who feels that way. Some women just want to be married to say that they are.

Bottom line: A woman complete in herself will not seek validation of their relationship from an outside source (wife, baby-mama, common law wife, life partner, etc)

love your entire post, especially the bolded

 

[SvelteVelvet]

And THIS is the REAL deal. Great breakdown, couldn't have said it better myself.

I think that they are not the same because socially, being married is more acceptable than being in love and procreating with someone who didn't legally bind themselves to you.

And I don't think it's a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with society encouraging a legal, lifetime commitment between two individuals that love and respect each other. Especially if there are children involved.

But...marriage doesn't always = a happy relationship.

Married women with a feeling of SUPERIORITY (IMO) = A woman who was not complete in HERSELF before she got married.

Married woman with a feeling of SECURITY = A woman getting what she needs from her marriage, and probably not worried about who is and who isn't legally wed.

And honestly, some women envy the title of "MRS". They might think marriage means "he really loves me and he'll never leave or treat me bad." Or they crave that approval from society, and in their OWN mind believe that they are "less" because they aren't married. And it's not always a "babymama" who feels that way. Some women just want to be married to say that they are.

Bottom line: A woman complete in herself will not seek validation of their relationship from an outside source (wife, baby-mama, common law wife, life partner, etc)

 

[newbiemom]

Being married is a huge difference than being a baby mama or so. It is legally binding,and entitile you in a way that is far better than a long termnon married relationship. Even if you are in a long term relationship it only takes death or ilness to put everything in perspective. All decions go to the wife.Not the gf regardless if she has 14 kids with him the doctor wil bypass you. Also being a wife should preclude having children so ideally it would be the first step of expanding your family. .Being a wife is a validation in my opinion. Not that my husband validates me but I value myself enough not to play house and do all the things a wife does and not have the title and all that comes with it.

 

[bluewater01]

It's only been one week for me, but I am also having this experience.

I'm just as cool and awesome as I was one week ago, but I swear, I'm getting a different reception.

And congrats!

Yep. Congrats to you too!

 

[Kurlee]

LHCF is VERY anti baby mama and seems to carry this crazy notion that women who have children out of wedlock are second class. Its simply not true. While marriage can be a positive, it can SURELY be a can of worms....just go look in the relationship forum for example. Some of the same women who brag about being married are some of the most unhappiest women on this forum.

I've never seen the mentality that is LHCF in real life, I'm a single parent and trust me when I say I thank nobody but GOD that I didnt marry any male that have approached me thus far in my 28 years (although this current guy I'm talking to seems to have potential...but thats a whole other thread cause idk if I'm feeling him...am I rambling here? yeah I am *sigh*) I could have married men out of pressure or feelings of obligation and who knows how that would have affected my kids if it turned out to be a miserable connection. Why live like that? Just to feel like I achieved someone elses goals and desires? Nope. no thank you.
Anywho My girlfriends that are married are MISERABLE (but they ALL play the game to others that they are so inlove and marriage is great which probably makes it worse because they cant BE real because of the way society would treat THEM...vicious cycle) hell one friend sleeps in a whole nother room and her and her husband are only 27 an 30 year olds. smh. Imagine that home in 10, 20 years, sheesh

I think alot of women on THIS forum seem to think that every women wants to rush into marriage. Dont believe the hype. Single parents tend to get a bad rep and all put in the same box but just as all marriages arent the same so is the situation with single parents. Marriage is great if it is mature and God driven, if not then its just two people physically residing in the same building.

But the real question is why does this type of thread always pop up on LHCF?? What is the fascination with someone elses life situation?? I dont have time to worry about married women and other single parents and I'm not going to put forth energy in downplaying someone elses life just because in MY mind they havent made it to the level I think they should be on to be happy. I guess I just dont get it, but hey, to each its own. and yes I ramble

amazing post

 

[LunadeMiel]

I hate to say it, but ever since I've been engaged, I really feel that hierarchy. Even strangers view me differently. People's faces really light up when they see that you're getting married. I also feel differently than I thought I would. Before being engaged, I really thought that I would feel the same as I did as a girlfriend but it is way different. There are so many more perks and you feel respected in a whole new way.

Absolutely. People definitely take your relationship more seriously once they know that you are engaged/married. Boyfriend/girlfriend does not hold the same weight as husband/wife.

 

[bluewater01]

Absolutely. People definitely take your relationship more seriously once they know that you are engaged/married. Boyfriend/girlfriend does not hold the same weight as husband/wife.

I agree. Especially after a certain age...

 

[TheNewFine]

If you live in a community property state, you know there's a BIG difference in being married, living together or baby's mama. HUGE !!!!!

 

[phynestone]

^^^^^^^^^^^^And that's one of the MAIN reasons I don't advocate living together unless you are MARRIED! Some people just don't know.

 

[pisceschica]

so, what do you think? do you think that being a wife is starting become "the same thing" as being a mans baby's mama? and if it is, why do some women get defensive when they have to admit that they have children by a man that they are not married to though they claim that wife and non-wife are the same?

No, wife will never be the same thing as a man's baby's mama, at least in my eyes. A baby's mama doesn't have the same legal rights that a wife has.

It may not always be the case but I wonder what is wrong with the dynamics of a relationship when a man can commit to a woman to be the mother to his children but not wife. I especially wonder this if the couple has been together and going strong for 3+ years.

I think some women may get defensive when they admit they have children they are married to because its still viewed as "improper" to have children by someone that you are not married to. I think this is especially the case with many whites.

I had a white co-worker and her sister had a child out of wedlock. She was one of those "good christian" republicans, she wasn't a hard core republic and didn't talk about politics much but you get her profile. She talked shish about her older sister that had a child out of wedlock. She talked about how being a single parent, unwed mother was like the worst thing in teh world.

Anyways she had a serious bf who had been deployed for several months. The way she talked about him it seemed like he was more into her than she was into him. Anyways he comes back..and a couple of months later she announced she is pregnant. We were a little surprised because she wasn't really talking marriage like that before. Come to find out she is pregnant. She didn't reveal to us that she was pregnant until she started showing. She was one of those work out everyday healthnuts so it was very noticeable. Anyways she gets married pregnant and has her baby within her marriage. While we (other co-workers) thought they were serious we were surprised they got married so fast.

She made herself out to be this good girl that did everything the bible. While we don't think it was a shotgun wedding we don't think it would've happened soo soon or at all if she didn't turn out pregnant. There are also rumours the baby isn't his because of his bright red hair. Neither of them has red hair or anyone in their immediate family. Yes, there are recessive dominant genes, but the guy that is suspected to be the father has strawberry blond hair

I think many people view it as the same because many people that still continue to have a serious romantic relationship with the mother/father of their child most likely live together. So while the woman doesn't have the title of wife she essentially plays the role of wife by running the household and taking care of teh children.

should a woman/mother who is married feel an "esteem" that the non-married with child has? or vice versa?

I don't think a married woman should feel an "esteem" because soemetimes people get married for the wrong reasons including shotgun weddings so their child isn't birthed out of wedlock. There are healthy non-married couple relationships and very un-healthy married couples so that doesn't really make a diffference as far as the quality of the relationship. However the married woman should feel a little more secure because i fthere is a divorce she would fair a lot better than a woman who was not married, especially if both were stay at home mothers who were out of work for significant amount of time.

 

[ThickHair]

Absolutely. People definitely take your relationship more seriously once they know that you are engaged/married. Boyfriend/girlfriend does not hold the same weight as husband/wife.

Not throwing stones at you, but I think that is why a lot of people talk "engaged" because they like that euphoric feeling. To ME engagements mean nothing unless there is a date. I know plenty of folks who were engaged but never married, some even had a date. IMHO engagments hold no water to ME, because people throw that around so freely. I never felt engaged even after my former husband ask me to marry him and I accepted. I was still a GF, and they hold no rights at all, neither does a fiancee'. Fiancee' has never been a part of MY vocabulary because it holds no water. I was a girlfriend until I was a wife and I will always view engagements that way.

 

[nysister]

I don't usually do "straight talk" because people are easily offended on this board, but I think that it's necessary because some women do not realize how this makes them seem. I don't have children, but...

Yes there is a major difference, and yes society is trying to water it down. There's only so far that can go for legal reasons, and because there are still many people that value marriage and what it means. No matter how the talk shows might make it seem otherwise.

No marriage is perfect, and some "common law arrangements" are better than some marriages, BUT The fact is in our society and in most societies, it's not seen as the same thing, whether it's for religious reasons, or the simple fact that in most cases it's not really the woman's choice (though she might state it is) and it just seems like she's being used by the man; and right or wrong most people don't think too highly of folks that allow themselves to be used. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. Halle Berry) but your average women who didn't get artificially inseminated, looks as if she's been used. That's the way it looks whether it's true or not.

It is what it is, I think the only reason it's being watered down is because there are so many. Which to me is sad. I have a friend that stated "well 'he' said, that since we're planning on being together forever, we don't really need to get married, and I agree." Now I love her to pieces, but she's being used, plain and simple. It's her own fault, but she's certainly being used. She is not a wife, no matter how much she wants to feel like it, because when the chips were down. His EX got everything she needed, for her and her children and my friend is still struggling.

Do I think I'm better than a baby-mama - No.

Do I think I'm in a better position than a baby-mama - Yes.

 

[Livingmylifetothefullest]

There are a few ladies that I work with who think putting a ring on their ring finger signifies "marriage". They all have children out of wedlock, boyfriends who have hit, cheated, lied, etc. to them but they walk around flashing their "rings" that they bought not the boyfriends.

 

[TheNewFine]

My state even goes so far as to offer a covenant marriage, which is really different than being in a live-in, baby's mama or even a "regular" marriage situation, for that matter.

The State Legislature has created a type of marriage in Arizona called "covenant marriage." It does not replace the kind of marriage already available. Instead it offers an additional option to couples who wish to marry. The covenant marriage differs both in the steps necessary to get married and the reasons why a legal separation or divorce may be granted by the court.

To enter into a covenant marriage, the couple first must have counseling (called "premarital counseling") from a member of the clergy or a marriage counselor. Then, when applying for a license to be married, both persons must show their intention to enter into a covenant marriage by signing a special statement (or "declaration") on the application form. In a covenant marriage, legal separation or divorce (in Arizona, a "dissolution of marriage") may be granted by the court only for specific reasons listed in state law. These are explained in the following pages.

ENTERING INTO A COVENANT MARRIAGE​

To be married in Arizona, a woman and man legally qualified to marry must first get a marriage license. (Sections 25-101 and 25-102 of the Arizona Revised Statutes indicate who may legally marry.) To get a license, a written application must be filed with the Clerk of the Superior Court in any county of the state or with some justices of the peace, city clerks or town clerks. Call the Clerk of the Superior Court in your county for information on where to apply for a marriage license.

For a covenant marriage, certain information must be included in the marriage license application. By law (Section 25-901 of the Arizona Revised Statutes) a person must state their intention to enter into a covenant marriage. This statement (or "declaration) must contain three things:


A written statement, printed exactly as follows:

A Covenant Marriage​

We solemnly declare that marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman who agree to live together as husband and wife for as long as they both live. We have chosen each other carefully and have received premarital counseling on the nature, purposes and responsibilities of marriage. We understand that a covenant marriage is for life. If we experience marital difficulties, we commit ourselves to take all reasonable efforts to preserve our marriage, including marital counseling.

With full knowledge of what this commitment means, we do declare that our marriage will be bound by Arizona law on covenant marriages and we promise to love, honor and care for one another as husband and wife for the rest of our lives.

​

The signed and sworn statement of both people that they have received premarital counseling from a member of the clergy or from a marriage counselor.

In premarital counseling, both people must be advised that a covenant marriage is a commitment for life. Premarital counseling also must include a discussion of the seriousness of covenant marriage, the requirement to seek marriage counseling if marital difficulties develop and the limited legal reasons available for ending the marriage by legal separation or divorce. The couple also must receive a copy of this pamphlet.

The signatures of both parties witnessed by a court clerk.

The parties must submit with the license application a sworn, notarized statement from the member of the clergy or marriage counselor who provided the premarital counseling. This statement must confirm that the parties were advised about the nature and purpose of a covenant marriage and the limited reasons for ending the marriage by legal separation or divorce. The counselor’s statement also must show that a copy of this informational pamphlet was given to each person. A sample affidavit is available at:

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/dr/booklets.htm​

 

[nysister]

^^^ Does this have to do with the NA population somehow? Is that they might have different views on marriages instituted by the U.S.?

 

[TheNewFine]

^^^ Does this have to do with the NA population somehow? Is that they might have different views on marriages instituted by the U.S.?

Actually, it was created in response to concepts/doctrines from the Mormon /LDS faith. Being so close to Utah, we have a very large Mormon population here.

 

[brg240]

I hate to say it, but ever since I've been engaged, I really feel that hierarchy. Even strangers view me differently. People's faces really light up when they see that you're getting married. I also feel differently than I thought I would. Before being engaged, I really thought that I would feel the same as I did as a girlfriend but it is way different. There are so many more perks and you feel respected in a whole new way.

I agree, I really like my bro's gf but as she's not his fiancé I don't exactly appreciate her trying to make things go through her. Or acting like we don't know things about him. She's not on that level yet. Heck if she becomes a fiancé I probably will still be like that until that wedding day.

edit: I don't think the two are the same at all. How could a baby mama know what it's like to be married anyway? I don't think it's true for all but I think many woman that say this do so to pacify themselves and defend themselves. I am sure that some married women do think they are better than baby mama's but I've heard more women that had kids out of wedlock say things like 'she thinks she's so great/w/e because she's married/being a gf is the same' or similar things :/ I think they're bitter.

 

[Strangefruittree]

No one should base their esteem on another's situation or lack there of ... that is problematic in and of itself. Marriage has loss some of the honorabilty with the visibility into infidelity and increase in divorce... it is not as safe and secure as it once was. I think that anybody in a committed relationship, that give and receives love and has a mutal intimate connection should thank their luck stars that they have it and worry not about another.
the committment between man and woman legitimized by government and laws does make it official in the society that we live in... but the matters of the heart are not governed by money and laws... they are just not. married or not, treasure your relationships and connections with your partner

 

[bluewater01]

Not throwing stones at you, but I think that is why a lot of people talk "engaged" because they like that euphoric feeling. To ME engagements mean nothing unless there is a date. I know plenty of folks who were engaged but never married, some even had a date. IMHO engagments hold no water to ME, because people throw that around so freely. I never felt engaged even after my former husband ask me to marry him and I accepted. I was still a GF, and they hold no rights at all, neither does a fiancee'. Fiancee' has never been a part of MY vocabulary because it holds no water. I was a girlfriend until I was a wife and I will always view engagements that way.

Well my wedding date is June 26th, right around the corner!

 

[biancaelyse]

Being a wife means a lot to me, spiritually, emotionally, financially, legally, etc.

I consider my marriage to be very personal and nobody's actions but DH's and mine could water it down - so far, so good.

 

[ThickHair]

My state even goes so far as to offer a covenant marriage, which is really different than being in a live-in, baby's mama or even a "regular" marriage situation, for that matter.........

Then why not get friggin married, geez?

 

[Cheleigh]

Then why not get friggin married, geez?

It looks like they are legally married, but that the state is offering a more "religious" type of marriage that has fewer loopholes for dissolution than a traditional marriage. I don't know how that hold's up in court though--will the courts not allow a dissolution for certain reasons if you signed a covenant marriage?

On topic: I do think being married means something to the folks involved in the marriage, but it also means more to the community at large generally. I was speaking to a recently married couple that had lived together prior to marriage. I asked them if it felt any different, being married. The husband said "it means more to the people we interact with--that society "legitimizes" your relationship when you're husband and wife. People don't try to minimize your relationship or your bond." I have experienced the same. It may not mean more or less in the day-to-day of me and my DH now that we're married, but it does mean more to the general public. My DH said, was the first thought after I said "I do," "now I've got him?" I didn't think that at all, but to him, it was a difference in dating versus marriage. Having said that though, I don't look down at anyone who is unmarried and has children compared to myself--these days it's not that hard to find any piece of something to marry.

 

[natura87]

Just becuase you are engaged that doesn't mean it will work out though. I have seen relationship after relationship crack during engagement. I have seen people that are engaged but are still cheating left and right, and I now of people that are only engaged to someone becuase of $$$, so engagement and marriage isn't all its cracked up to be if your heart isn't in the right place.

 

[Bunny77]

Not throwing stones at you, but I think that is why a lot of people talk "engaged" because they like that euphoric feeling. To ME engagements mean nothing unless there is a date. I know plenty of folks who were engaged but never married, some even had a date. IMHO engagments hold no water to ME, because people throw that around so freely. I never felt engaged even after my former husband ask me to marry him and I accepted. I was still a GF, and they hold no rights at all, neither does a fiancee'. Fiancee' has never been a part of MY vocabulary because it holds no water. I was a girlfriend until I was a wife and I will always view engagements that way.

By and large, I do agree with this. I've also always said that you're single until you're married, and the Census doesn't have an "engaged" option on the form.

So I still call myself single until that day... 'cause I am!

As for LunaDeMiel's point though, I think that people close to the MAN (like his family, friends, etc.) might treat you differently as a fiance' versus a girlfriend (but like you said, a date needs to be in place and a wedding/JOP time set, etc.) Maybe because they know that you're soon about to join their family versus being some chick he's dating, you're seen a little differently because he has proven his intentions to marry you.

But... it's still not equal to being a wife, and I agree with you on that.

 

[PeanutButterandHoney]

Just because the two terms aren't equal, doesn't mean that one is greater or less than.
It just means they are different.

Why is there an implication that if you are not a wife, you are a live in baby mama?
I mean, does it really have to be one extreme or the other?

 

[LunadeMiel]

Just becuase you are engaged that doesn't mean it will work out though. I have seen relationship after relationship crack during engagement. I have seen people that are engaged but are still cheating left and right, and I now of people that are only engaged to someone becuase of $$$, so engagement and marriage isn't all its cracked up to be if your heart isn't in the right place.

I'm not equating an engagment to marriage (that would be absurd), however, people DO treat you differently once they know that you have the intention of getting married. Whether it's one's personal philosophy or not, society as a whole has more "respect" for an engaged couple than say boyfriend/girlfriend.