God's Law is Eternal

Thanks so much Divya, you explain all that I would have wanted to but wouldn't probably know where to begin.

Topsyturvy, Divya has said all I would have wanted to say. Its simple to me. I believe that we still need to follow some of the old laws because they save us from many, many trials and suffering. many are still in effect like the clean and unclean food. Take care of your bodies. given of your first --your best to the Lord. that there is no need for me to have someone kill a innocent beast for my sin. I can come to God directly without seeking out a priest. Jesus paid it all for me. Now I can have a relationship with God. This is what I have learned from this study. That in those days after so much sin they were punished immediately but Jesus has come and now we have a chance to make amends for our sins. We can repent and start over again.
 
I'm still trying to figure out when a lasting ordinance ends. I just keep being drawn back to those words "lasting ordinance." I also go back to prophesy that clearly says the feasts will be celebrated when Messiah returns. Maybe we're talking dispensational theology (which is actually pretty new) in that God deals with His people differently at different times. That doesn't make much sense to me, so I'll stand by the tenant that nothing has changed and nothing will change.
Now how does that apply to believers in the 21st century Western world, I don't completely know.

I see where your position lies, but I understand it from the perspective of verses given. Maybe if there was something that really contradicted both the statements in the Old and New Testaments regarding what would and did occur with the feasts.

How can those ordinances stand when Colossians says they are blotted out?
How can the feasts stand when Hosea states "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts?"

My faith rejects dispensational theology. However, type meant anti-type when Christ died for us on the cross, which did away with the sacrificial and ceremonial system. Christ then gave us new ordinances - baptism and Communion.

Communion "replaces" Passover...

Luke 22:15-20 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


What about the requirement that one goes to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts? For all those who believe in keeping feast days, do they really keep them? What about the festivals? What is kept and what is discarded if one rejects the teaching of Hosea and Colossians?
 
It is the road of clarity and truth.

Exodus 32:16 - And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

The Scriptures absolutely. are inspired by God and written done by men. That is true. However, the Scriptures state that God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger. That something was written by God Himself is amazing and is clearly distinguishable from that written only by Moses. The Scriptures make the distinction between the Ten Commandments and the ordinances - that is one. However, there is other Scriptures that have been posted that show the distinction as well. Are you debating these as well?

So, if I agree with you and provide scriptures, I am not debating.
If I disagree with you and provide scriptures, I am debating.
But, you can provide all the scriptures that you want.
Anyway...
I was not debating, I provided scriptures from a different view.
But, our cultures are probably different. I can understand if it seems debating for you, and I am sorry :Rose:
For the glory of Jesus-Christ.
 
I see where your position lies, but I understand it from the perspective of verses given. Maybe if there was something that really contradicted both the statements in the Old and New Testaments regarding what would and did occur with the feasts.

How can those ordinances stand when Colossians says they are blotted out?
How can the feasts stand when Hosea states "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts?"

My faith rejects dispensational theology. However, type meant anti-type when Christ died for us on the cross, which did away with the sacrificial and ceremonial system. Christ then gave us new ordinances - baptism and Communion.

Communion "replaces" Passover...

Luke 22:15-20 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

What about the requirement that one goes to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts? For all those who believe in keeping feast days, do they really keep them? What about the festivals? What is kept and what is discarded if one rejects the teaching of Hosea and Colossians?

What we call Communion was actually part of the traditional Passover Seder. There are four cups that are passed around during the meal. Jesus specifically was talking about the cup of Judgement when he said "this is my blood that will be shed for you." He's telling them that every time they pass that cup at every Passover Seder to come they should do so in rememberance of him. The unleavened bread that he broke is also part of the meal. It's impossible to divorce anything written in the NT scriptures from their Judaic context. When you remove that context it distorts the meaning of what's going on.

As for how to celebrate the feasts now, I really don't know. Unless one has an endless stash of disposable income it is nearly impossible to travel to Jerusalem at each appointed time. However, just because a person can't do EVERYTHING perscribed doesn't mean they shouldn't do whatever they can. For me personally, I've found that celebrating the feasts (especially Passover) I get a much clearer understanding of Messiah and how the Feasts lead directly to Him. It's like God gave us all of these perfect pictures of who Messiah is and what his purpose is in each one of those feasts. It also shows me the spirit in which the Torah was given. I think oftentimes we look at it as this long list of do's and do not's and it's so much more than that. It's God's covenant with His people. It's God giving His people the very best way to live. It's prophetic, protective, and wholly encompassing love, love for God and love for people.
The burden of the law that is often referenced in the NT is moreso talking about oral Torah and the fence laws that came into practice over the centuries. Plus, people (not unlike us today) got way too caught up in the minutiae, thinking they could be close to God simply by following the rules. But it's impossible. Messiah came and taught people the intent of Torah. What good is it to say, "Well I haven't killed anybody," if you're harboring intense hatred and grudges in your heart. So what if you haven't slept with anyone other than your husband if you're constantly wanting to be with another. Yeshua got people to look at the heart of all of these matters, so that people would change internally. Remember, God saved Israel from Egypt first, and then gave them the covenant. He saves us first, and that love and gratitude we have for God leads us to obey His Law. I think there's a misconception that people who still choose to observe Torah are doing so in order to get right with God when in actuality, for most people it's a natural response to growing closer to God.
 
So, if I agree with you and provide scriptures, I am not debating.
If I disagree with you and provide scriptures, I am debating.
But, you can provide all the scriptures that you want.
Anyway...
I was not debating, I provided scriptures from a different view.
But, our cultures are probably different. I can understand if it seems debating for you, and I am sorry :Rose:
For the glory of Jesus-Christ.

Oh no, not with me. We can agree to disagree. My question is whether you will debate the Scriptures. The Word of God is very clear about the Sabbath - "line upon line, precept upon precept," verse upon verse. Unfortunately, so much time has been spent to find some justification for disregarding God's Sabbath, and the law of love in general. Not by you, but by so many for so long. It has taken centuries of pushing the traditions of men over that of God. So I understand your view but the question was not about me at all - but the Word alone.

Hope you understand and it's fine if we don't agree. :)
 
What we call Communion was actually part of the traditional Passover Seder. There are four cups that are passed around during the meal. Jesus specifically was talking about the cup of Judgement when he said "this is my blood that will be shed for you." He's telling them that every time they pass that cup at every Passover Seder to come they should do so in rememberance of him. The unleavened bread that he broke is also part of the meal. It's impossible to divorce anything written in the NT scriptures from their Judaic context. When you remove that context it distorts the meaning of what's going on.

Agree completely. :yep:


As for how to celebrate the feasts now, I really don't know. Unless one has an endless stash of disposable income it is nearly impossible to travel to Jerusalem at each appointed time. However, just because a person can't do EVERYTHING perscribed doesn't mean they shouldn't do whatever they can. For me personally, I've found that celebrating the feasts (especially Passover) I get a much clearer understanding of Messiah and how the Feasts lead directly to Him. It's like God gave us all of these perfect pictures of who Messiah is and what his purpose is in each one of those feasts. It also shows me the spirit in which the Torah was given. I think oftentimes we look at it as this long list of do's and do not's and it's so much more than that. It's God's covenant with His people. It's God giving His people the very best way to live. It's prophetic, protective, and wholly encompassing love, love for God and love for people.

Careful study of the entire sacrificial and ceremonial system (and the sanctuary) on a whole definitely gives perfect pictures of who the Messiah is and His purpose. I suppose where we disagree is whether or not they should be observed in the same manner. The sacrifices and ceremonies definitely should be marked, studied and remembered. That's where it ends for me due to Hosea, Colossians, Daniel, Luke etc. These lead to the Messiah who encompassed them all. Are all the feasts gone forever? Not necessarily, according to Luke. Christ will eat of the Passover meal again when all is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

The burden of the law that is often referenced in the NT is moreso talking about oral Torah and the fence laws that came into practice over the centuries. Plus, people (not unlike us today) got way too caught up in the minutiae, thinking they could be close to God simply by following the rules. But it's impossible. Messiah came and taught people the intent of Torah. What good is it to say, "Well I haven't killed anybody," if you're harboring intense hatred and grudges in your heart. So what if you haven't slept with anyone other than your husband if you're constantly wanting to be with another. Yeshua got people to look at the heart of all of these matters, so that people would change internally. Remember, God saved Israel from Egypt first, and then gave them the covenant. He saves us first, and that love and gratitude we have for God leads us to obey His Law. I think there's a misconception that people who still choose to observe Torah are doing so in order to get right with God when in actuality, for most people it's a natural response to growing closer to God.

Agree regarding the fence laws and such. This is why I believe in the prediction in Hosea, that "the feasts, new moons, sabbaths and solemn feasts" would be taken away. Even today the danger still exists and can be seen. Agree regarding the misconception as well - definitely don't believe that it applies to everyone who is Torah observant at all. But I do believe in the words of Daniel and Hosea telling us that the sacrificial and ceremonial systems will cease. I accept that in Christ Jesus - type met antitype. As far as the Ten Commandments...they are the express of God's character and continue on. It is definitely true, that growing closer to God gives us the desire to obey His Law.
 
So your belief is that in the New Testament when the law of Moses is spoken about, it's the ordinances being referred to and not the law/10 commandments? What is ur interpretation of the 1st scripture? (i'm just trying to understand ur belief)

Today is my daughters graduation. I will respond later on today. But yes. its the ordinances and ceremonial laws.

OK. This is my question answered. You believe that when the bible makes referrence to the law in the New Testament, it referres to the ordinances and ceremonial laws and not the law including the 10 commandments. I think I get it now. I was struggling to understand some things such as your interpretation of the purpose of the law and also the curse of the law spoken about in Galatians 3: 10 - 14.

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Galatians 3: 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 
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The curse of the law is the penalty of death, which “passed upon all men.” (Romans 5:12.)
We that are saved do not rely on the law to save us we rely on God's grace and Jesus sacrifice to save us.
 
God does not cancel the law to accommodate the transgressor; but through the
sufferings of Christ in man’s behalf He cancels the death sentence under which the violated law holds the sinner.
 
THE LAW AND THE SABBATH
Love Upholds the Law
Coming back to Jesus’ declaration that the commandments are based on love to God and love to man, and that “on these two commandments hang all the law,” we find that, according to Jesus, these two commandments do not dispose of any part of the law, but uphold all the law. The first four commandments define our duty to God, based on love. If a man loves the Lord with all the heart, he will not have other gods, will not bow to images, and will not profane the Lord’s name or the Lord’s holy day. And if a man loves his neighbor as himself, he will not murder, steal, lie, or practice the violation of any of the others of the last six commandments. But the principles of divine love must first be implanted in his heart, because the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. It would seem from this that a feeling of rebellion against the commandments of God is a sure sign that carnality still dominates the heart.
Since the commandments are spiritual and based on love, they can never fail because “love never fails.” (1 Corinthians 13:8, A.S.V.) Paul further declares, “Love is the fulfilling of the law.” Romans 13:10. This statement simply means that love is the carrying out of that which the law embodies by the way of love to God and man. When Cain violated these principles, his wretchedness led him to say, “My punishment is greater than I can bear.” Genesis 4:13. It is the purpose of the gospel not to give license to violate these principles, but so to infuse man’s heart with love for his fellow men that he will be led to respect these principles. This is the love that is “the fulfilling of the law.”
As long as human social relations remain, as long as the commandment “Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself” is a Christian duty, the last six of the Ten Commandments will remain not abolished. The only way to abolish these commandments would be to abolish the social relations between man and man-and then there would be no possibility of violating them.
Man was made with a capacity not only for social fellowship with others but also for spiritual fellowship with God. The maintenance of this fellowship involved certain principles which, if observed, would ensure its uninterrupted continuity. On the other hand their violation would destroy this fellowship and separate man from God. We need only to refer to what came to our first parents in the Garden of Eden to prove that this is true. We cannot get into the kingdom by good works, but we can shut ourselves out by bad works. To Adam and Eve disobedience (Romans 5:19) proved to be the bad works which shut them out from Eden.
Some modern teachers claim that the Ten Commandments “governed Israel’s moral life,” and that they came to an end, together with the typical and ceremonial laws which pointed forward to the death of our Lord. It seems unaccountably strange that it will be persistently taught that the moral principles of these commandments neither originated nor applied before Sinai but existed only between then and the cross. Why do not the supporters of this teaching recall that when Cain murdered his brother, he was held under condemnation? Why do they not recall that when Joseph was urged to violate the principle of the seventh commandment, he protested, saying, “How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” Why can they not understand that it never. has been right to have other gods, adore images, and desecrate the Lord’s name and day? Why can they not understand that it has never been right to dishonor parents, kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, and covet? Why can they not see that Jesus never brought these principles to an end at the cross, or then after a time legislated again nine of them back into force again? We can illustrate the folly of this argument by supposing that one of a man’s ten fingers is giving him trouble, and he wishes to get rid of it. Suppose he goes to a doctor and makes his wishes known. Suppose the physician should argue like this: “The only way I can get rid of the troublesome finger is to cut off all ten and later stick nine of them back on.” Sounds foolish, doesn’t it? But what about the argument that God abolished all ten of the commandments at the cross to get rid of the “troublesome” Sabbath Commandment and then reinstated nine of them later on? This is exactly what the no-Sabbath advocates contend. It does seem that any honest truth seeker could understand that these men are wrong and only trying desperately to get around the truth.
The commandments are enduring principles based on love relations between man and man, and man and his Maker; and from the very beginning God never intended that man should have other gods, worship images, or profane the Lord’s name or the Sabbath, all of which stand for the recognition of God as Creator. As long as these relationships between God and man last, these principles will exist. The only way to abolish the commandments which unfold these principles would be to abolish the relationships between God and man. Certainly the coming of Jesus into the world never disrupted or destroyed these love relations. How, when “love is the fulfilling of the law,” can grace be opposed to love, and love be opposed to grace? Such is not the truth. How can a man preach the love of God with one breath and the abolition of the Ten Commandments with the next? How can such preaching be the truth if love is the fulfilling of the law? Love carries out what it says. Then as long as the commandments remain, the seventh-day Sabbath must remain, since it is one of the commandments of this law of love.
 
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