BAMBOOZLED by Afroveda

[blackbarbietea]

I'm just saying to focus on what matters.

AKA- Getting condish for cheap.
AKA- Her misleading customers of her skills and acting as if she gathered the ingredients and mixed every single one herself, adding in her own preserves. all that bs.
AKA- Plagiarizing the description for another website for the SAME PRODUCT.

Not the fact that she's using a base.

 

[Vintageglam]

OP to tell the truth on the one hand you are on this board vehemently defending one vendor and then starting a thread against another ( correct me if I am wrong?)

I have no interest in either company and really couldn't care about then either way, however find your selectivity somewhat confusing.

 

[blackbarbietea]

OP to tell the truth on the one hand you are on this board vehemently defending one vendor and then starting a thread against another ( correct me if I am wrong?)

I have no interest in either company and really couldn't care about then either way, however find your selectivity somewhat confusing.

Who is she defending? -fail on my scan through post skills.-

 

[HeavenlySkies]

Wow so on top of just putting Essentials stuff in her own packages she stole their descriptions too? lol

 

[empressri]

I'll say this, I really don't give a damn about bases. If it works for me, it works for me! If they're figured out how to make a base even better so that I love it, then yippee.

BUT...from my knowledge...I'll say it like this. When you're mixing up stuff at home, YES you have to order ingredients in bulk...but. When you're paying higher prices for products, you're paying for it to me made in a lab, tested by chemists who make sure everything is right before it even gets packaged to be sold.

Joe Blow making something in their kitchen...I guess you sort of take a risk with using it because there are TONS of lines out there from kitchenticians that jacked up folks hair cause some just don't know what the hell they're doing and ingredients that you think are safe ended up corroding folks hair. But if you're making stuff at home, the price needs to reflect that.

Hairveda is not expensive at all to me and works. Again I don't care if she uses bases the stuff works! But to charge someone some crazy behind exorbitant price is insane when I know you're supposed to be charging less. And it's about the almighty dollar but guess what, you just won't get mine. I'll be damned to get up and go to work and work crazy overtime talking to the crazy fruitloops in NYC to blow my money on something that should cost 2x less than it does.

There's some new commercial out asking would you buy a sandwich that costs $5000? Or a drink that costs $4000? Or something like that. Same principal.

 

[Mrs. Verde]

Noir - how much preservative should you add to a mixture? Example, 8oz mixture. 1 tablespoon of preservative? Thanks.

 

[miss stress]

I took a look around that site and its great! It even tells you how to run your business! Whn I move back to the states, I might mix some things up and peddle them for pocket money

 

[BostonMaria]

I've always know that most online hair companies use bases and an outside vendor to make the actual product. The only thing that gets me mad is when these companies have a sale, take a month to send it to you and when you ask why it's taking so long the reply is "this is hand made" the truth is you created a sale with products you didn't have in your warehouse. You placed a bulk order with a manufacturer with the money I sent you and until those products arrive you can't send them to me. THAT pisses me off. Don't lie about it.

 

[Rastafarai]

OP to tell the truth on the one hand you are on this board vehemently defending one vendor and then starting a thread against another ( correct me if I am wrong?)

I have no interest in either company and really couldn't care about then either way, however find your selectivity somewhat confusing.

Not sure what KBB has to do with this thread or why you're even bringing that up into this discussion.

Whatever your opinion, this thread helped provide members and lurkers cheaper alternatives to products being purported as handmade. It also brought to light the lies and plagiarism of one company. We are now better informed consumers and nothing but good can come out of that.

 

[Neith]

Noir - how much preservative should you add to a mixture? Example, 8oz mixture. 1 tablespoon of preservative? Thanks.

I know you didn't ask me, lol. but it depends on the preservative used and the formulation of the product.

It's generally less than 2% Sometimes much lower.

 

[LittleLuxe]

I'm just saying to focus on what matters.

AKA- Getting condish for cheap.
AKA- Her misleading customers of her skills and acting as if she gathered the ingredients and mixed every single one herself, adding in her own preserves. all that bs.
AKA- Plagiarizing the description for another website for the SAME PRODUCT.

Not the fact that she's using a base.

Exactly. Believe me it's not just the use of bases that are ticking people off it's the whole dang shebang. Let's be real here a lot of these businesses exist only because of hair boards and while I'm sure they're expanding and growing to reach new market if every single lady on a hair board stopped purchasing their products the company would fail faster than you could blink.

This isn't Loreal or Pantene which...to be frank probably don't give two hoots about us as customers these are women and companies which are created and basically depending on us for a goodwill customer-business relationship. Without us they don't have a business and in exchange for their hard work we expect them to provide what they claim. We're basically giving them the trust we've stopped putting into bigger companies.

Based on that trust and the fact we're SUPPOSED to have an equal and productive relationship I know I and other ladies aren't expecting to be played for fools.
1. Your formulation game is phucked up, you're not even on top of that.
2. You raise prices because you need the money to run your business more effectively...and yet the last price hike didn't do anything.
3. Come to find out the product you claimed to need extra money to create is basically pre-made with you just adding a few ingredients.
4. Even with it being pre-made you're STILL not on top of your formulation game.
5. And last but not least for all that extra money you're getting you can't even write YOUR own description??

So on top of lying you're lazy too.

I'm not saying don't use bases, I still love some products for these companies and appreciate what they do for my hair and thus I'd support them. But this whole nonsense with pretending that you were so desperate for healthy hair products you slaved over creating products, invested your time and money and finally invented a product which you wished to share with black women...that's just lying and trying to play the only people supporting you for fools. Considering you're a small business and we're a tight-knit community that's not smart and could result in you getting punked like Mala and suddenly needing to have a Columbus Day Sale out of nowhere.

Also someone mentioned there's actually a cone in her product which she just decided to remove from the original ingredient list? Now I know some ladies on here are very serious about their cones and the fact that when you invent your product in your mind and the reality don't match the label you would just magically erase it....? Uh uh, if I was into that mess I'd be using BSS products all day. That makes me immediately cross you off the list because I don't know what else you'd lie about to protect your image.

Thusly...bye bye Afroveda, I knew you when.

 

[andromeda]

First of all, elle you are ON IT, esp in that NC thread!

Honestly, the bases thing doesn't surprise me at all. Anyone with a basic understanding of economics and business 101 - opportunity costs, economies of scale, marketing, the suggestive effect of certain buzzwords, branding and pricing - shouldn't be surprised. One of reasons why I say it's all about ingredients (and technique).

I've never purchased from afroveda and never really took an interest in the brand. Based on the revelations in this thread and the other thread, including the consulting report, it seems like Afroveda has gone above and beyond the industry norm and her inconsistent products, apparent plagiarism poor customer service and recent price hike just add insult to injury.

I don't think business should have to disclose the use of bases but I do think it's ideal for consumers to make informed decisions. If the knowledge necessary to make such informed decisions is facilitated by some googling or by message boards, so be it.

In general, I don't see the exorbitant prices thing as being that heinous. Some consumers place a premium on the "prestige" implied by certain packaging, branding, message, personal story and gussied-up ingredients, and companies are more than willing to capitalize on that. I think afroveda probably could have gotten away with charging their current prices in the first place, esp with the right branding, decent product and customer service. But raising the price was a no-go because the consumer had already formed an opinion of the brand, which was based on lower pricing.

To me, this controversy brings attention to larger issues: consumer awareness, capitalizing on a trend, and being product-oriented vs being knowledge-oriented.

Consumer Awareness - People should understand the underlying factors and implications of cost vs. price and act according to what they value. Consider the impact of your dollar on a micro and macro level, in the short and long term. When presented with seemingly shady business practices, try to figure out to what extent that practice is the norm.

Capitalizing on a trend - the demand for natural and natural hair-oriented products is on the rise. Such demand will attract unethical and inexperienced business people.

Being product-oriented vs. knowledge-oriented - I was thinking about this the other day. Whenever we say that anyone who wants healthy hair will google and find this site, we underestimate just how much people have been indoctrinated into the product-oriented mentality. Instead of having the root cause as a starting point, people use the product aisle as a starting point, looking for products which promise to solve an ill-defined problem. I know I discovered this site in the process of looking on the web for reviews/alternatives to an extremely overpriced product that I thought would improve my hair. In fact, my decision to go natural was partly based on information that I found on a retailer's website in the process of looking for products. Even if we do have a good understanding of haircare, we are susceptible to these shenanigans when we are so product-oriented and invested in the brand image of the companies that we patronize. .

 

[andromeda]

btw, this thread shows up on the third page of results for the google search "afroveda" and on the first page of results for the google search "afroveda ingredients"

Personally, I have my own issues with the likes of afroveda, hairveda etc. and not because they use bases (but that's a whole 'nother story). The only popular 'handmade' company posted about here that I trust is Qhemet. I know that she creates her products from scratch, her products are of high quality and PRESERVED. Most of all she is honest about her ingredients; unlike most of popular so-called handmade lines on here.

I'd like to know more re: the bolded but I understand if you don't want to derail this thread. yep: I've been wanting to start an industry insider thread for the haircare and hairstyling industries.

 

[*fabulosity*]

I wonder if now that people know that they are using bases will they start omitting ingredients or scrambling up the order of ingredients (can they do that legally?) to throw people off....?

 

[Bun Mistress]

I havetried AV and HV in the past and wasn't wowed. Also the shipping cost and wait weren't what I wanted. But the price was ok, then. But 21.50 for 8oz of conditioner. You can go to the mall right now and get an 8oz tube of Dry remedy from aveda. No shipping charge.

 

[Charz]

Oh Goodness....the secret has finally came out.

I knew that one company in particular was using bases. That's why I've neglected to do a review on the products out of fear of my honestly surfacing and drama starting.

I'm sorry but if I am spending 20 bucks for a conditioner or 16 bucks for a moisturizer, I want it to not be from a base. That is why I can look the other way with Hairveda, because she ain't charging those kind of prices with her bases.

That's why I really like Qhemet and KBB (hair milks). I know they do not use bases, Qhemet in particular. Not sure with the rest of KBB's products. Oh and Oyin doesn't use bases either.

A tell-tell sign is when a company has like 30 products and just started out. 7 conditioners, a skincare line etc.

I am checking on if my Jessicurl WDT is made with a base. If it is, I will not be repurchasing.

 

[La Colocha]

I appreciate this thread because i want to be informed about what i am spending my money on. I want the choice of what i will put up with and what i wont. I know a few companies that use bases and i won't say any names because its not about them but i choose to buy from them because they are cheap and have good products that i do not have the time or money to come up with myself. I have mixed up a few things on my own and it is hard to get a good consistant product with even a few ingredients. Others should want to be informed also and make their own choices, i don't have money to throw away do you?

 

[SelahOco]

I think I might purchase some of the base and make Christmas presents for people out of it. Make little labels with their names on it and customize the scents to their liking.

That could be really cute!

 

[IDareT'sHair]

The thing for me is I know Full Well that I am not trying to be a Mix-Master, Mixologist or Mixtress, so long story short, I ain't mixing nothing. It's just not happening.

I guess I could buy a Liter of a Base......and then what????

There are several companies that I purchase from, that I've known (for a while) used a base to make their product(s).

However, overall, I am pleased with both the product and the level of customer service I have received. Therefore, I continue purchasing.

They have not raised their prices unproportionately, have frequent sales/discounts and always has some type of special going on, on a regular basis.

So, taking all these things into consideration, helps me to make an informed financial decision to continue to spend money with these companies.

Poor Customer Service, Lying about raising prices and & general Dishonesty, for me are deal-breakers.erplexed

 

[cutiebe2]

This is all crazy. Im glad I never ordered from Afroveda.

But lets keep all the companies straight. I wouldn't want us to assume things about other companies without knowledge. Is Hairveda being accused too?

KBB's store is actually around the corner from my father's house. I walk there are look around for fun all the time. I have seen them making products from hand. Blending stuff in a clender, whipping them up in a huge bowl, and then packaging. It could be that a base is included in that but seeing as I saw much of the process with my own eyes I will stand by them at least.

I wonder what the Afroveda owner has to say about all this!

 

[Noir]

Wow so on top of just putting Essentials stuff in her own packages she stole their descriptions too? lol

From my knowledge Kayla (the founder of Essential Wholesale) has no problem with companies using her product copy (I will have to double check with her though). Although I have no idea why Afroveda would even consider using the exact same copy from a site that any ol' tom, dick or sally can google erplexed

BUT...from my knowledge...I'll say it like this. When you're mixing up stuff at home, YES you have to order ingredients in bulk...but. When you're paying higher prices for products, you're paying for it to me made in a lab, tested by chemists who make sure everything is right before it even gets packaged to be sold.

There are tons brands, big and small that are not made in labs. Lush still formulate their creations in kitchens using muffin pans and cake mixers for their products lol.

Noir - how much preservative should you add to a mixture? Example, 8oz mixture. 1 tablespoon of preservative? Thanks.

Mrs. Verde Neith is correct. It depends on the preservative used, the type of formulation and the amount (by weight). When working with formulations that require a preservative you always use percentages.

However... If you plan on purchasing a base, then there is no need to worry about adding a preservative because they are already preserved. So just add some your favorite oil/butter/ fragrance or whatever and you're good to go

I wonder if now that people know that they are using bases will they start omitting ingredients or scrambling up the order of ingredients (can they do that legally?) to throw people off....?

Absolutely not! They are misleading their customers and breaking labeling laws.

andromeda I'll PM you re. your question.

 

[EllePixie]

Noir I thought that the concept of ingredients being listed in order of the proportion used wasn't regulated. I have seen some companies in stores list all of their herbal extracts at the top but I was pretty sure that wasn't the bulk of the product. I could be wrong regarding the regulation but for small companies I feel it would be fairly easy for them to stick their added ingredients in the middle and fall under the radar. A lot of companies that use bases leave out ingredients like TEA.

 

[Kurlee]

After reading threads here and on NC, I dunno how to feel about this whole thing. First off, I think many did not understand the P&G reference and ran with it, but it's cool, since it's clear they didn't understand what I meant. . . .

All this that Mala and other companies do is not new and very common in almost every industry. When I made reference to those big corporations, I was trying to show that they do the same things but have the money to not be "exposed" (lawyers, patents, the "name" to hide behind and bolster false confidence) and have the money for chemists to alter and tweak their products and test and match their claims. Every so often there are scandals, but they take care of those really quick and usually bounce back really quick.

The nature of capitalism is dishonest, so I dunno, what Mala is doing is what 99% of very successful business people do; exploit others and get rich off it. The reason I made reference to P&G is because they aren't checking for black hair care, like that. They may have a "line", but it's laden with crappy ingredients, nice smells, weave wearing models and pretty bottles. It doesn't at all address the true concerns that we have about our hair, but further perpetuates the insecurities and stereotypes we have about our hair. Not to mention, even though they have the money to, significant research is not being done to really understand our hair.

That's where these "kitchen" lines come in. They KNOW our hair and concerns because it grows out of their heads. They research and some use the boards. There is no way in hell I could find a commercial product that has so many rich ingredients like KCCC and the like have. NO way in hell. I say all of this to say, we all know there is a void in the black hair care industry, so how wrong is it for someone to research, find good ingredients that are effective and people want and NEED and make it into a product, with the help of bases, etc? They are catering to their niche, so if the ingredients are still good and the products are effective, how mad can you really be (besides the price hike), because if you own an iPod any other consumer goods, you're getting tricked and overpriced the exact same way.

I remembering doing a project in a business class a few years ago and we had to choose a business and basically break down everything about them from A to Z. Because I'm into the hair stuff, I chose a wholesaler and after spending lots of time there, learning who some of their clients were, etc., you would really be surprised at how many of the big companies make their money. They all do it. I'm not saying how she went about it is right, but it's kinda like, how are you gonna who is doing it or not? Just because we haven't found the bases for some of the other products, doesn't mean they aren't using them. There are many wholesalers who don't sell online and post all their ingredients and MSDS, etc on their websites and you actually have to deal with sales reps and catalogues to get the same things that say Essential Wholesale offers online.

I think where Mala went wrong was raising her prices so drastically. It made everyone angry and they went on a witch hunt and found lots of dirt, so now she's getting roasted. If she had kept her prices reasonable, people prally wouldn't have been looking into her ingredients like that. What Mala is doing is capitalism, pure and simple and it's naive to think that other companies are "ethical". They want to make money too and in capitalistic system you HAVE to exploit to get a profit. So I dunno, the price hike turns me off, but the rest? Not really.

 

[EllePixie]

Actually...and I can say this b/c I'm the one who started the NC thread, the intent was to inform consumers about bases being used so if they wanted to tweak the extra ingredients for their hair, they can do that. The original thread has many more bases than just AV. It's true that people started Googling her ingredients specifically because a lot of people already didn't want to order from her, yet many on the board were concerned with finding replacements. So, that's what we found. Some people got angry, some people were amused, some people didn't care. Personally, I'm not even mad - I'm a PJ and have plenty of other products I like better...so she can go on with the best of them.

Personally, I don't even care that she raised her prices, because I have plenty of products that are comparable in price to the new products. However, to raise her prices and use the excuse that the cost of raw materials went up when she is using MANY bases, is dishonest to customers. Basically, her rationalization for her price increase is super shady, and I think that people have a right to know about that. I don't care if Loreal, Clairol, or xyz use bases or whatever - at least they put out a consistent product that I don't have to wait a month for. If Apple was telling people that they had to wait a month to get their iPod because some technician in Silicon Valley had to make it from scratch, I'd call them shady too. Furthermore, like you said, those larger corporations DO have chemists and those chemists obviously know about formulation, and I can't say that for AV, due to the fact that her products OFTEN spoil or separate. When was the last time your Pantene went bad? If you're using bases, why is it taking you so long to get your product out, when your excuse for the long processing time is that you're making stuff from scratch?

Also...AfroVeda is not Kinky Curly. It's clear that Mala does not research many of her products and formulations - shoot, she couldn't even come up with her own description, so how am I supposed to know that she actually knows what specific ingredients do to hair? Her most popular products are her butters, which are basically enhanced whipped shea butter. Really? Is that a surprise to anyone, being that shea butter is perhaps THE most popular ingredient when it comes to natural hair care?

One of the MAJOR advantages of using smaller companies is that they are not supposed to be based on capitalism and dishonesty. That's their supposed "promise" to customers - that they are NOT like larger companies. I'm just saying, don't position yourself in a certain light, then get caught lying, then not even address the issue. That's just bad PR. The initial price hike was bad PR. It took her how many days to write to her customer and give her "reasons" for the hike? I believe that she said that price increases were coming, but people most likely thought it would be a few dollars, not almost 100%.

Anywho, with that, I'm done. Afrovedagate has kept me amused for days, but I got stuff to do, lol! It's nice outside, everyone get off the dang computer!!!

 

[IDareT'sHair]

It has been Great Dialogue. I guess It was bound to come out sooner or later anyway. erplexed

The unfortunate thing for me is, that AV-Gate threw alot of other vendors under the bus with her. with that crazy price-hike.

It exposed & uncovered alot of other "stuff"

But Overall, this has all made us Wiser/Smarter and more knowledgable how we plan to spend our money --- going forth.

Some of us will decide to invest in base(s) Oils, SAA's and other ingredients....that's great for those that choose to go that route.

Knowledge is Definitely Power. It's what we plan to do with it after we receive it that makes us well equipped and informed consumers.

I have a feeliing Black Friday & 2011 will be a very different year.

 

[Kurlee]

Actually...and I can say this b/c I'm the one who started the NC thread, the intent was to inform consumers about bases being used so if they wanted to tweak the extra ingredients for their hair, they can do that. The original thread has many more bases than just AV. It's true that people started Googling her ingredients specifically because a lot of people already didn't want to order from her, yet many on the board were concerned with finding replacements. So, that's what we found. Some people got angry, some people were amused, some people didn't care. Personally, I'm not even mad - I'm a PJ and have plenty of other products I like better...so she can go on with the best of them.

Personally, I don't even care that she raised her prices, because I have plenty of products that are comparable in price to the new products. However, to raise her prices and use the excuse that the cost of raw materials went up when she is using MANY bases, is dishonest to customers. Basically, her rationalization for her price increase is super shady, and I think that people have a right to know about that. I don't care if Loreal, Clairol, or xyz use bases or whatever - at least they put out a consistent product that I don't have to wait a month for. If Apple was telling people that they had to wait a month to get their iPod because some technician in Silicon Valley had to make it from scratch, I'd call them shady too. Furthermore, like you said, those larger corporations DO have chemists and those chemists obviously know about formulation, and I can't say that for AV, due to the fact that her products OFTEN spoil or separate. When was the last time your Pantene went bad? If you're using bases, why is it taking you so long to get your product out, when your excuse for the long processing time is that you're making stuff from scratch?

Also...AfroVeda is not Kinky Curly. It's clear that Mala does not research many of her products and formulations - shoot, she couldn't even come up with her own description, so how am I supposed to know that she actually knows what specific ingredients do to hair? Her most popular products are her butters, which are basically enhanced whipped shea butter. Really? Is that a surprise to anyone, being that shea butter is perhaps THE most popular ingredient when it comes to natural hair care?

One of the MAJOR advantages of using smaller companies is that they are not supposed to be based on capitalism and dishonesty. That's their supposed "promise" to customers - that they are NOT like larger companies. I'm just saying, don't position yourself in a certain light, then get caught lying, then not even address the issue. That's just bad PR. The initial price hike was bad PR. It took her how many days to write to her customer and give her "reasons" for the hike? I believe that she said that price increases were coming, but people most likely thought it would be a few dollars, not almost 100%.

Anywho, with that, I'm done. Afrovedagate has kept me amused for days, but I got stuff to do, lol! It's nice outside, everyone get off the dang computer!!!

Good Post! I just feel it's wrong to hold one company acoountable and not all the others because more often than not, big or small, they are all doing the same thing and some are more successful than others and some are better liars than others. In the capitalistic system you can pretend all you want to not be "like the others", but you have to be and give in at some point or your business will fail. With that said, it's going to be interesting to seeing what happens to her business after all this drama. I need to check out the Curl Junkie and Ohm replacements for Curl Define

 

[Rastafarai]

The nature of capitalism is dishonest, so I dunno, what Mala is doing is what 99% of very successful business people do; exploit others and get rich off it.

What Mala is doing is capitalism, pure and simple and it's naive to think that other companies are "ethical". They want to make money too and in capitalistic system you HAVE to exploit to get a profit.

Using your above premises I guess the likes of Qhemet Biologics, Komaza Hair Care, Darcy's Botanicals and other successful small black businesses are also exploiting their customers and being dishonest? After all, they are successful and are making profits.

You have certainly insulted a number of black businesses with those above comments. Not all young companies are dishonest or exploitative and one can make a profit without having to lie to their customers. For you to think otherwise is truly unfortunate.

 

[Kurlee]

Using your above premises I guess the likes of Qhemet Biologics, Komaza Hair Care, Darcy's Botanicals and other successful small black businesses are also exploiting their customers and being dishonest? After all, they are successful and are making profits.

You have certainly insulted a number of black businesses with those above comments. Not all young companies are dishonest or exploitative and one can make a profit without having to lie to their customers. For you to think otherwise is truly unfortunate.

It's called markup and every company HAS to do that to make money. They make something for 2 dollars and charge you 6 dollars. How else would they make a profit? And where they get their "ingredients" and the formula is always hush hush. Why would they tell you so you can make it/get it yourself? You can turn my words around into whatever you want but I have nothing against those companies. I was speaking about businesses in general. Do those businesses that u named use bases for at least one of their products? Maybe. Do I know? Nope? Do I care? Not really. If it's effective and reasonably priced, whether they whip it in their kitchen, send it to a lab or use bases . . . . I don't really care. I would rather support them than the bigger corporations who don't even have me on their radar. If i'm not willing to make it myself and do the leg work, then why am I complaining. There's always luster's pink oil to go back to

 

[coilynapp]

Noir I thought that the concept of ingredients being listed in order of the proportion used wasn't regulated. I have seen some companies in stores list all of their herbal extracts at the top but I was pretty sure that wasn't the bulk of the product. I could be wrong regarding the regulation but for small companies I feel it would be fairly easy for them to stick their added ingredients in the middle and fall under the radar. A lot of companies that use bases leave out ingredients like TEA.

No, Elle. There are regulations regarding labeling. The FDA requires that you label in order of proportion of ingredient of your product (high to low). People who are not labeling correctly are falling short of regulations. And they shouldn't be omitting anything either

 

[IDareT'sHair]

I am Thankful that we are All Blessed to Have Choices and to Spend our Money Where & with Whom.

Thank God for Choices. There are Multiple, Talented Vendors to Select from.

We ALL have the Freedom to Choose.

Most, I have dealt with have great products, moderate price-points and decent customer service.

I'm also thankful that we can ALL Express our Opinions and then at the End of the Day do what's best for our Hair and our Wallets.