BAMBOOZLED by Afroveda

[Myjourney2009]

I found out about bases used in the "natural conditioners" when I was looking to purchase wheat protein, etc. I found the base that is used for my favorited leave-in,( I wont be trying to make it at home becuase the store brought one works just fine). Thank you OP for this site, I think I am going to purchase and add my own oils to the base of another conditioner I found on this site.

The specific conditioner I am thinking of using is Moisturizing Conditioner. This specific base is used in a very, very, very popular "natural" line. The company just adds avocado butter and avocado oil to the base. I can add avocado oil to the base for a fraction of the cost.

Side note: I have never used Afroveda, but I have seen the price jump and the videos that have followed.

 

[MyAngelEyez~C~U]

Does anyone know for a fact Mala does this? I'm a bit confused. The original post shows a site where the conditioner is a base product with similar ingredients to one of Mala's conditioners. It does not mean Mala herself is buying the same product and charging 5 times as much to sell it. Maybe I read it wrong.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if she is or isn't. The point is that you can buy the bases for far cheaper than she's attempting to sell it to you. You'd literally have to be a raving idiot (IMO) to waste money on her products. I like to get the most for my money. PERIOD. And don't feel sorry for that woman. She knew the job was dangerous when she took it. You don't raise prices to cover costs (not a massive price hike like she did)...you utilize the fact that you are a minority small business owner (female AND black), write a business plan based on the popularity and current profitability of your business, and get a small business loan to expand your business. There isn't a bank in the world that wouldn't fund her with her proven profitability. She'd get a loan in a heartbeat.

Frankly, I think she needs to take a business course or something.

 

[janda]

Ok... where have I been? Why have I been spending so much money on products I could make myself for a fraction of the cost? Thanks for the info.

 

[Leesh]

Ok... where have I been? Why have I been spending so much money on products I could make myself for a fraction of the cost? Thanks for the info.

And, that would last for a very, very long time!

 

[An_gell]

Wow!! This Afroveda thing is getting crazy..lol!!! I'm glad this info has come to light because her stuff was next on my list to try not saying I won't but it's gone take some time due to the prices now. I think I'm bout to go back to what I was doing in the beginning of my natural journery which was making my own hair products. Just can't trust anybody anymore.

 

[Kurlee]

I get what you're saying but she's claiming that she makes the products by hand. Maybe her definition is different than the rest of ours.

I dunno, for me, it's not that serious. Formulating products really requires "chemist" knowledge. Her researching and getting a base, tweaking it, preserving it, packaging it, shipping it and making it her "own", doesn't come off as shady to me. Most of the products we use come from bases and "base models" that are copied and tweaked. Marketing and capitalism isn't exactly about morality, ethics and honesty. If it wasn't for her ridiculous price hikes, I would still be a customer. Her formula upon "tweaking", works well. I have worked with bases before and it's not as easy as people think. The proportions have to be right and it's a very fine line with proportions before you can ruin the entire thing. That takes work to figure out. I dunno, it just doesn`t outrage me and I would rather use products like these `natural` lines (not Afroveda) that are bought from wholesalers (the same one the big corporations use alongside work with chemists to tweak) and support black businesses vs. Procter and Gamble who don`t give a damn.

 

[Neith]

Many people make their conditioners from scratch. You do not need a chemist.

Maybe it's not common knowledge and in no way am I saying it's very easy... but there are equations (look up HLB system) and specific steps that one would have to take to make an emulsion.

Many people do it without anything besides the raw ingredients, a digital scale, a hand blender and suitable pots/containers. It's not rocket science, although having knowledge about the ingredients and the exact steps that need to be taken is necessary.

I'm not mad that people used the base. I'm mad anyone who lies about their product (calling it hand made is just a straight up lie) and repackage cheap items made by someone else to charge you an arm and a leg for it.

 

[SUPER SWEET]

Yea, I mean, I don't have beef with HairVeda at all...someone just wanted to know who is using bases so I named them. Brendita's BBW is a MESS though...for a lot of her products she doesn't even ADD things, she just repackages the base and sells it as her own. Then, when you go to the About Brendita section she talks about how she did all this research and made her own products. I wanted her Phat Head Coconut Pudding, but it's actually just the Essential Wholesale Silk Creme, which is $11 for 16oz while the repackaged product is $8 for 6oz...

Brendita Ingredients:
Organic Aloe Juice, Organic Coconut Oil, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Organic Jojoba Oil, Organic Grapeseed Oil, Organic Avocado Oil, Organic Witch Hazel, Vitamin E, Phenoxyethanol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Xanthan Gum, Organic Black Willowbark Extract, Neem Oil, Rosemary Oleoresin, Citric Acid

EW Ingredients:
Aloe barbadensis (Organic Aloe) Juice, Cocos nucifera (Organic Coconut) Oil, Emulsifying Wax NF, Palm Stearic Acid, Kosher Vegetable Glycerin, Simmondsia chinensis (Jojoba) Oil, Vitis vinifera (Grapeseed) Oil, Persea americana (Avocado) Oil, Hamamelis virginiana (Witch Hazel), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Phenoxyethanol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Xanthan Gum (Polysaccharide Gum), Salix nigra (Organic Black Willowbark) Extract, Mannan, Azadirachta indica (Neem) Oil, Rosmarinus officinalis (Rosemary) Oleoresin, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid

You just saved me...i was going to buy from Brendita!

 

[Kurlee]

Many people make their conditioners from scratch. You do not need a chemist.

Maybe it's not common knowledge and in no way am I saying it's very easy... but there are equations (look up HLB system) and specific steps that one would have to take to make an emulsion.

Many people do it without anything besides the raw ingredients, a digital scale, a hand blender and suitable pots/containers. It's not rocket science, although having knowledge about the ingredients and the exact steps that need to be taken is necessary.

I'm not mad that people used the base. I'm mad anyone who lies about their product (calling it hand made is just a straight up lie) and repackage cheap items made by someone else to charge you an arm and a leg for it.

It's really not that simple, especially when ur dealing with certain ingredients that can alter pH, or polysaccharides, or gelling agents (carbomer), etc. Some formulas, if they drop below a certain pH by adding certain ingredients can turn from a thick gel/cream to soup, just from a few too may drops. Others can curdle like rotten milk, etc. I'm just saying, it's not as easy as everyone is making it sound. If it was, we would all just "whip up" our own products. I totally get that people want to roast her right now because of her BS lately, but I think all this is reaching and going too far.

Everyone lies in some way about their products. No one is gonna say, "this cost me 2 dollars to make and I'm charging you 20 and umm I took x ideas from y place, but umm still waste your money to make me rich please ." CHI flat irons don't cost 200 dollars to make, but we buy it. Designer clothes don't cost 1/10 of what they are sold for and sometimes are just a matter of switching labels and "tweaking" between supposed higher and lower brands. IPods and Macbooks dont cost what they charge for them, but the marketing makes us think it's "worth it", so we blow our money on things we THINK are worth it and make OTHER people rich.

Capitalism = exploiting others to make money. Few winners (the makers/exploiters) and lots of ripped of "losers", the bamboozled consumer. I don't wrong Mala for TRYING to get in the game, I just won't be helping her rip me off. Miss Jessie's did the same thing and now they are millionaires and in major magazines and selling in Target. I really don't think it's possible to be successful in business without adopting these types of principles. You just have to be smart and not let the consumer find out, what the real deal is. The reasons why corporations have such an iron grip is because they have the money to keep their "secrets", formulas, etc undercover and we the consumer don't have alternatives, so they can do what the hell they want, whether we like it or not.

 

[LittleLuxe]

Shame. It's things like this that make you rethink that whole supporting 'our' business thing. Not to say I expect you to plant aloe and add it to your product from scratch but don't sit there smiling at me with your mixing cap on with pics of you inside your kitchen when you're really buying a damn conditioner off the net like me and adding stuff to it.

Disgusting.

At least when I make a purchase from Kenra or Mizani I have 0 expectation from the company nor are they trying to fool me. We both know it's full of chemicals but this foolishness right here...blech.

Some of these online retailers better watch it or they'll find themselves extinct. I am nobody's fool. Find another way to pay your bills before you try to run game on me.

 

[LongCurlz]

Ive recently stopped buying conditioners I make my own stuff from the condtioner base hairveda uses...its alot cheaper and I can add my own favorite ingredients to it.

Its definantly not easy, I have had to throw away plenty of batches for messing it up and the product turning to mush, its not as easy as people think

But you cannot knock companies for using conditioner bases most of them do, its a business so of course they are gonna find ways to get there product ingredients as cheap as possible.

 

[CocoBunny]

I dunno, for me, it's not that serious. Formulating products really requires "chemist" knowledge. Her researching and getting a base, tweaking it, preserving it, packaging it, shipping it and making it her "own", doesn't come off as shady to me. Most of the products we use come from bases and "base models" that are copied and tweaked. Marketing and capitalism isn't exactly about morality, ethics and honesty. If it wasn't for her ridiculous price hikes, I would still be a customer. Her formula upon "tweaking", works well. I have worked with bases before and it's not as easy as people think. The proportions have to be right and it's a very fine line with proportions before you can ruin the entire thing. That takes work to figure out. I dunno, it just doesn`t outrage me and I would rather use products like these `natural` lines (not Afroveda) that are bought from wholesalers (the same one the big corporations use alongside work with chemists to tweak) and support black businesses vs. Procter and Gamble who don`t give a damn.

I for one enjoy being outraged. But some how I just cant get worked up about this. Free enterprise means she can charge what she wants for her products. I can buy it or not. If she starts with a base and adds her own twist to it. More power to her and I can buy it or not.

Such a simple concept.

 

[Noir]

The VAST majority of small hair companies, that are popular on LHCF work with bases. Not a secret to those of us in the industry, hence the reason why you NEVER catch me posting in those threads. I read some of them and have to sit here biting my tongue.

Her researching and getting a base, tweaking it, preserving it, packaging it, shipping it and making it her "own", doesn't come off as shady to me.

However I agree 100% with Kurlee. I don't consider using a base dishonest, unless of course you are claiming that it is your own formulation and is handmade. Indie beauty/small business owners debate this subject all the time -- Can you still claim handmade while using a base? Some believe yes... many (inc. myself) say no. Some formulators/manufactures who create products using a base prefer to claim handcrafted, instead of handmade. Whatever ALL of my forumations are made from scratch because that is what I find the most joy in... The formulating; the research and development; the trial and error, ALL of it.

Personally, I have my own issues with the likes of afroveda, hairveda etc. and not because they use bases (but that's a whole 'nother story). The only popular 'handmade' company posted about here that I trust is Qhemet. I know that she creates her products from scratch, her products are of high quality and PRESERVED. Most of all she is honest about her ingredients; unlike most of popular so-called handmade lines on here.

 

[An_gell]

For the members that really want to purchase and stock up on her butters and creams if you go to her site and click on locations there are websites for the stores that carry her products and Sage Natural(something) has an ebay store that has her butters for pretty cheap, with the 2 oz sizes running for $6.50. The other sites were sold out. I think everybody that likes her products are hitting up the stores that are still caring the products for the old price...

 

[Noir]

Most manufacturers use bases purchased from outsource companies. No indie seller like afroveda is blending steralkonium chloride or phenoxyethanol, etc., in her kitchen. It takes teams of professional chemists to come up with good formulas and it is a full time job - there are no part time hustlers doing it.

Tiye Hey, just wanted to chime in and mention that this is absolutely incorrect.

As I stated in my previous post, I make all of my formulations, including really complicated emulsions from scratch, using raw ingredients and I started in my kitchen. I am not an exception either. The majority of people I know actually create original products, and don't use bases. Once you have a basic understanding of emulsions, hydrophilic-lipophilic balance (hlb system), preservatives etc. you can create almost anything. Most of the 'natural' companies we see today started off in their kitchens, including Lush and Carols Daughter......

ETA: In fact, I have Stearalkonium Chloride (a cationic quaternary/conditioning agent that helps to reduce static and friction) and a 3 huge bottles of phenoxyethanol (preservative) in my cupboard right now. The phenoxyethanol I was using just today as it is the main presevrative that I use, because it doesn't contain parabens or formaldehyde.

 

[VidaStarr]

I'm just glad to know that all those products that I thought I couldn't afford.... i now know that i can afford those products in bulk lol.

 

[JFemme]

This is absolutely incorrect.

As I stated before, I make all of my formulations including really complicated emulsions from scratch, using raw ingredients and I started in my kitchen. I am not an exception either. The majority of people I know actually create original products and don't use bases. Once you have a basic understanding of emulsions, hydrophilic-lipophilic balance (hlb system), preservatives etc. you can create almost anything. Most of the 'natural' companies we see today started off in their kitchens, including Lush and Carols Daughter......

In fact, I have Stearalkonium Chloride (a cationic quaternary/conditioning agent that helps to reduce static and friction) and a 3 huge bottles of phenoxyethanol in my cupboard right now. The phenoxyethanol I was using just today as it is the only presevrative that I use, because it doesn't contain parabens ot formaldehyde.

Something to consider, perhaps...

Apparently, phenoxyethanol is no lesser evil than parabens. While it’s generally non-irritating and formaldehyde-free, it doesn’t mean it’s any better than parabens. Here’s why.

Meet phenoxyethanol, or ethylene glycol monophenyl ether. Already doesn’t sound too good, does it?

It’s really troubling that phenoxyethanol, glycolic ether that was once believed to be non-toxic, is becoming a “safe” alternative to parabens.

However, several animal studies clearly demonstrate toxicity of phenoxyethanol, which causes damaging effects on the brain and the nervous system, even at moderate concentrations. As a cosmetic ingredient, phenoxyethanol is restricted in Japan and the European Union. Even the U.S. EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) data sheets show “chromosomal changes and genetic mutation effects in testing as well as testicular atrophy and reproductive damage in mice.”

In cosmetic formulations, phenoxyethanol is used to kill bacteria and stabilize the formulation. It’s often combined with polyquaterniums to balance its acidity. While it’s theoretically possible to derive phenoxyethanol from natural sources, beauty industry prefers a cheap synthetic phenoxyethanol that can be bought very cheaply from China.

Phenoxyethanol: Preservative with Dirty Past

 

[EllePixie]

The VAST majority of small hair companies, that are popular on LHCF work with bases. Not a secret to those of us in the industry, hence the reason why you NEVER catch me posting in those threads. I read some of them and have to sit here biting my tongue.

However I agree 100% with Kurlee. I don't consider using a base dishonest, unless of course you are claiming that it is your own formulation and is handmade. Myself and fellow indie beauty/small business owners debate this subject all the time -- Can you still claim handmade while using a base? Some believe yes... many (inc. myslef) say no. Some formulators/manufactures who create products using a base prefer to claim hand crafted, instead of handmade. Whatever. ALL of my forumations are made from scratch because that is what I find the most joy in... The formulating; the research and development; the trial and error, ALL of it.

Personally, I have my own issues with the likes of afroveda, hairveda etc. and not because they use bases but that's a whole 'nother story. The only 'handmade' company that I trust to buy from, that is popular on here is Qhemet. I know that she creates her products from scratch, and her products are of good quality and PRESERVED. Most of all she is honest about her ingredients; unlike most of popular indie lines on here.

Exactly, ITA with you. Some people are missing the point. NOTHING is wrong with using a base - I'd probably still buy it if you make it smell yummy and add some stuff I like. LYING about using a base and saying your products are handmade is an ISSUE, as you stated in the bolded. Not disclosing the use of a base, but not saying that the product is handmade, is fine. I haven't seen anyone on this thread outraged about bases in general - it's the blatant dishonestly that's got folks all riled up.

 

[Noir]

Its definantly not easy, I have had to throw away plenty of batches for messing it up and the product turning to mush, its not as easy as people think

LongCurlz That is because you are breaking the emulsion. Never add more than 5% of your own ingredient or you will ruin the batch. If you want help with this just let me know.

 

[ladytee2]

I have never used afroveda. I have ordered a few things online from other places. I have worked retail and to be fair to afroveda and the other lines. These businesses are no different from Alberto culver, Proctor and Gamble and every other hair care company. It's a business. They want to make a profit and chase the American dream. You would be hard pressed to find any product in any store that's not marked up atleast 200%. And I think that's being generous. Ther is no way you are going to get any product that's 100% organic without any preservative that's going to sit in any bathroom and last for any length of time. I don't purchase a lot of high priced items because my purse just ain't that deep. I'm not going to be mad at someone making a living by starting their own business. Personally I would like to start my own business. I wish more women and men of color would start their own and start creating gerational wealth for our children and grand children. Now that poor customer service and inconsistent product is another story.

 

[kmn1980]

Are you serious? Perhaps this will convince you...

This is Mala's description of the conditioner:
The pH of our hair mask compacts the cuticle layer of the hair, which will result in shiny, bouncy hair that is not weighed down. The conditioning ingredients form a protective layer over the cortex where the cuticle cells have broken away, which creates a protective layer or coating over these rough edges. The protective coating created with our Ashlii Amala Hair Mask also seals in moisture and and reduces static electricity.

This is the EW description:
Truth be told there is no miracle cure to repair damaged hair. Hair is dead and cannot be repaired. But it can be coated and conditioned. The pH of our hair masque compacts the cuticle layer of the hair, which will result in shiny, bouncy hair that is not weighed down. The active ingredients in our hair masque leaves the hair feeling smooth, while leaving a "waxy" coating on the hair. The conditioning ingredients of this hair masque form a protective layer over the cortex where the cuticle cells have broken away, which creates a protective layer or coating over these rough edges. The protective coating created with conditioner also seals in moisture and reduces static electricity.

Decide for yourself, but I know dang sure they didn't copy her.

Good Golly Miss Molly!

I've never bought anything from Afroveda but I surely appreciate the whistle blowers in this thread leading me to Essential Wholesale.

 

[afrikurl]

Afroveda-gate is getting very interesting. Lord knows I don't need no more conditioner but I wanna buy the bases just cause.

 

[HappilyLiberal]

This chick might as well just close up shop. Her business is DONE! I give it another week or two before Afroveda becomes the new Shima on this board. Then it is going to be time to break out the
adlock2: adlock2: adlock2: adlock2: adlock2:!

 

[Noir]

Hey JFemme I am a subscriber to that blog and while I enjoy many of the posts, I must admit that there is a lot of misinformation on there (I just finished reading her blog post re. grapeseed extract being a preservative which is complete bull, but I digress) I always make sure to gather my information from reliable sources and not from blogs which contain copied and pasted information, without thorough research of the facts. I have spent years researching preservatives and other alternatives, and at this present time, I am the most comfortable with phenoxyethanol I am able to use it at 0.5%, it is modified from organic matter, non irritating and it is what my clients request (I do private label for businesses).

Unfortunately, there are NO natural broad-spectrum preservatives on the market right now, and to forgo the use of preservatives in a hydrous (with water) formulation in NOT an option. Once you make a product combining oils/butters/humectants/extracts etc. WITH liquid (water, hydrosols, aloe vera) it becomes bug food and will begin to grow microorganisms VERY rapidly.

As I mentioned in another thread, staph and fungal infections are not pretty and I have seen with my own eyes the harm a non-preserved lotion can do to a person. I don't want to be responsible for seriously harming somebody (God forbid) or risk being sued or fined.

So, the options are preserve the formulation with the safest and lowest amount of preservative or risk creating and selling a product with the potential to grow mold, bacteria, microbes, yeast and fungi

I like to put things in perspective. Synthetic doesn't necessarily mean toxic; and natural doesn't always mean safe. There are plenty of herbs and essential oils out there which are natural, but highly toxic and can kill you.... and as you know staph and e-coli, are all VERY natural, but I still don't want them in my lotion or hair conditioner lol

My issue is not with bases or synthetic ingredients but the dishonesty of some of those companies; large and small. If you use a base don't claim handmade and if you use synthetics don't claim 100% or ALL natural, because it is misleading.

 

[Neith]

This is absolutely incorrect.

As I stated before, I make all of my formulations including really complicated emulsions from scratch, using raw ingredients and I started in my kitchen. I am not an exception either. The majority of people I know actually create original products and don't use bases. Once you have a basic understanding of emulsions, hydrophilic-lipophilic balance (hlb system), preservatives etc. you can create almost anything. Most of the 'natural' companies we see today started off in their kitchens, including Lush and Carols Daughter......

In fact, I have Stearalkonium Chloride (a cationic quaternary/conditioning agent that helps to reduce static and friction) and a 3 huge bottles of phenoxyethanol in my cupboard right now. The phenoxyethanol I was using just today as it is the only presevrative that I use, because it doesn't contain parabens ot formaldehyde.

lol, thank you!

Besides me stating that no... it's not easy, but it's entirely possible to make conditioner from scratch and be a "normal" person, I just feel like people don't believe me or something.

Also, if people feel comfortable buying from someone who they know for a fact lies about the formulation of their product... that's your choice.

IMO, that's shady. Not trying to stuff my opinion down anyone's throat... but that's just my take on it.



Now for a different topic... preservatives.

I would NEVER buy a product that didn't have sufficient preservatives. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Some really nasty things can brew and multiply - and cause immediate health problems/fungal infections/bacterial infections - in unpreserved product.

Also, the unpreserved product would have a relatively SHORT shelf life. No such thing as safely having it on your shelf for weeks to months.

Having no preservative or a lower quality preservative is like wishing for a law suit. imo

There is nothing natural that I know of that can safely preserve water and oil emulsions. I wish there was.

 

[Neith]

Hey JFemme I am a subscriber to that blog and while I enjoy many of the posts, I must admit that there is a lot of misinformation on there (I just finished reading her blog post re. grapeseed extract being a preservative which is complete bull, but I digress) I always make sure to gather my information from reliable sources and not from blogs which contain copied and pasted information, without thorough research of the facts. I have spent years researching preservatives and other alternatives, and at this present time, I am the most comfortable with phenoxyethanol I am able to use it at less than 0.5%, it is modified from organic matter, non irritating and it is what my clients request (I do private label for businesses).

Unfortunately, there are NO natural broad-spectrum preservatives on the market right now, and to forgo the use of preservatives in a hydrous (with water) formulation in NOT an option. Once you make a product combining oils/butters/humectants/extracts etc. WITH liquid (water, hydrosols, aloe vera) it becomes bug food and will begin to grow microorganisms VERY rapidly.

As I mentioned in another thread, staph and fungal infections are not pretty and I have seen with my own eyes the harm a non-preserved lotion can do to a person. I don't want to be responsible for seriously harming somebody (God forbid) or risk being sued or fined.

So, the options are preserve the formulation with the safest and lowest amount of preservative or risk creating and selling a product with the potential to grow mold, bacteria, microbes, yeast and fungi

I like to put things in perspective. Synthetic doesn't necessarily mean toxic; and natural doesn't always mean safe. There are plenty of herbs and essential oils out there which are natural, but highly toxic and can kill you.... and as you know staph and e-coli, are all VERY natural, but I still don't want them in my lotion or hair conditioner lol

My issue is not with bases or synthetic ingredients but the dishonesty of some of those companies; large and small. If you use a base don't claim handmade and if you use synthetics don't claim 100% or ALL natural, because it is misleading.

You said it much better than I did. lol

 

[Forever in Bloom]

I'm boycotting for having to pay an exorbitant price for something that is not made by hand and from scratch.

According to Afroveda's owner:

"The products are all made by hand, by me, and it is truly a joy. I am somewhat of a perfectionist and
do all I can to ensure that AfroVeda products are made with the utmost care and safety."

Traditionally Ayurvedic. Naturally You.

To the bolded, she needs to change that to "hand mixed by me", 'cause baby, it ain't hand made

 

[Noir]

@ Neith ITA with you.

And yes you absolutely can make a conditioner from scratch in your kitchen lol.You don't have to be a chemist or have a PhD. It just takes a LOT of research and trial and error. I can tell that you already have a basic understanding of emulsions from your previous posts and the sites you posted. Most if not all of the women here could do it.

 

[blackbarbietea]

The use of bases does not bother me.

I am not an AfroVeda customer, never bought their products and never will; however, my mother uses bases for her products (NOT haircare but bodycare) and she literally does hand prepare everything. She uses the base (lotion, shower gel etc) and she adds color, scented oil etc. She also personally does the packaging and labeling.

Granted, my mom is not charging $25 for a $5 product/container and she also has no display at her store advertising wholly organic or handmade or specially formulated products.

I bet you Lush does the same thing. Everyone stop crying about bases. She should be called out on her price hike and lying that she created everything from scratch or something. Like she squeezed the aloe vera gel out of a plant. LMAO.

 

[EllePixie]

I don't know why people are coming in here telling people to calm down. If you want to buy it go 'head, do you. People should at least know what they're buying and be informed...But I guess ignorance is bliss.