What Happened?

movingforward13 said:
I have to disagree with that one. A man can treat his mom like gold and his woman like ish.
Emotional incest- especially if the mother is overstepping her boundaries because you are “taking her man.”
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True!!! My point is if a man will disrespect his own mother in front of others best believe he will have no qualms doing it to you.
I've experienced this with an ex. He'd spoil his mother but had no problem yelling at her in front of me. I should've ran away after witnessing him treating his own mother that way but I was young and in love lol. No surprised when he started being verbally abusive towards me.
 
They could be the men who were raised by emotionally abused and abandoned women; who themselves settled to be the main provider and carry everything/everyone on her back.

Remember, the example of providership within the black culture is more a TV reality (Cosby’s) rather than a household one. Therefore, like women, men are a product of their environment and if there wasn’t a real representation of true providership in the home or even within the generational influence they will not know what being a provider really means nor look like. All they saw was mama paying the bills—-All the bills. Mama was the protector—- In every battle or threatening circumstances.

Also, I work in an environment where I see the break within the black family structure — prison. Mass incarceration is real and has played a huge role in the disenfranchised black family plague.
 
Daernyris said:
I feel that a lot of black men feel that the white man gives us more than they give him and he's jealous.
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White men do "give" black women "more" than they "give" black men in some areas.

There are definitely social handouts that are easier for bw to get than bm. They are usually given more (emphasis on more as I know sistas deal too) of a hard time if they have strong personalities than bw with strong personalities in the workplace. There are countless orgs rallying around saving us...they are run by bw, but nonetheless are about us or rather young girls. I'd be willing to bet that while there are plenty of individual black mommas ready, willing and able to throw their daughters under all the buses to coddle, "protect" whatever for their black sons...we still have, at least numerically speaking, more groups/programs directed at saving us. Nit to speak on the quality of said programs.

This is where me and I guess the hotep and hotep adjacent diverge. Wm don't "have" to "give" other men anything (they should in the case of us make reparations so to speak), but technically no they dont have to make room for other men to compete against them at their own table. The women, if those doing the conquering were feeling benevolent so to speak, were brought into their patriarchy as slaves etc. Be killed or if youre "lucky" find your way within the new group of men. The men...not so much.

Anyway, this thread ain't about that. I just want to say that I actually do think they're right in that regard. I do think some of the women who say they are jealous also may be on to something.
 
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Can we talk more about how men treat their moms being a foreshadowing? I am wondering if some men “appear” to treat their moms well because they do not see her as a threat, or she overlooks their bad behavior, or does something else in exchange for them to be nice or spoil her. I’m just not seeing how a man can be highly emotionally intelligent, respectful of his mom as woman, etc. and be a woman abuser/hater. IMO spoiling can also be a form of manipulation especially if the mom has less resources or doesn’t have a spouse.

Also, the mother position is very different from the SO/Wife position. We all only have one mom that most do not see as replaceable. But a husband and a wife can be replaced. So maybe he tries harder with the mom or values his mom more?

A lot of black moms put their sons on pedestals too. Or she has trained him how to treat and support her but not how to treat other women, namely a future partner. Ok now I’m rambling :look:. I’ll stop.
 
The fabric of a mother (woman) today vs. back then are very different.

A mother with a son 40+ old son was taught back then to tolerate more than what a modern day mother does.

As you mentioned, the parent/child relationship between a mother and her son could be a reflection of her filling the void of a man/provider in her life. It could look like her not holding him to account or her raising him as her man and not a man for someone else.

Which in the above case, the son does benefit from and grows into the guy who “loves” his mama and will never disrespect her but treats his wife (from a different generation) lower than his mother because that parent/child relationship is not present. Aka his wife holds him accountable because she isn’t trying to be his mother, she’s trying to be his wife (equal yet different).

I have said many of times that I would prefer to deal with certain issues from a man who comes from a two parent household than a man raised by a single mother.
 
okange76 said:
I would say having single mothers who did everything so in their minds women are pretty much mules. It's a never ending cycle because the married ones model this for their sons who see Mum being treated that way so they do the same to their wives. Rinse and repeat.

On the flip side, I think it is selfishness and laziness because there are men out there who saw their mothers mule it out and refuse to let their wives and daughters go down the same path.
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This. Happens in married homes also.
Mom was a superwoman/contortionist so now wife has to be the same.
 
Question for this group:

Knowing or having an idea about the way these men have been raised and how it becomes the catalyst to their approach to assuming a role that meets the criteria of providership, what can/should we do to mitigate being impacted by such?

My first thought would be to avoid these type of men at the point the indicators are present or manage the situation well enough to create change. Just like an organization going through a cultural shift of change, the CEO may not see a value in firing everyone and starting over. What they CEO may do is focus on bit size pieces and manage the circle of influence they do have by establishing and stating the desired outcome (set boundaries) then proceed to hold staff accountable. That may look like choosing to coach up/down/lateral or be collaborative instead of being dictatorial.

Reality is some of us are married to these types of men (well I divorced mine), currently engaged to or dating these types of men, or left from one relationship only to be faced with a dating pool of these types of men.

Either way we each have one thing in common which is the empowerment of having a choice.
 
@007PMP - I am avoiding them like a plague and if that means I am going to be single for a very long time, so be it. One thing I have learned is life is very short so in the duration of my very short life, I want PEACE.
I want HAPPINESS.
I want LESS STRESS.
And while wanting a companion is a deep desire within- I am not settling for subpar any more. I truly can do bad by myself. If he can’t make my life easier- I don’t need to be with him and I don’t want him. I bring a lot to the table- so build the d@mn table - is what I am thinking in my head.
 
Layluh said:
My ex husband thought like this. Even felt threatened when me and his sister were watching black girls rock one night. “Why do we need a black girls rock? What about bm”
Would always talk about how women were so protected and men weren’t. I remember him asking me one day”who’s gonna protect bm? If everyone’s protecting the women”

They hate us cause they ain’t us.
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:spinning:
 
movingforward13 said:
@007PMP - I am avoiding them like a plague and if that means I am going to be single for a very long time, so be it. One thing I have learned is life is very short so in the duration of my very short life, I want PEACE.
I want HAPPINESS.
I want LESS STRESS.
And while wanting a companion is a deep desire within- I am not settling for subpar any more. I truly can do bad by myself. If he can’t make my life easier- I don’t need to be with him and I don’t want him. I bring a lot to the table- so build the d@mn table - is what I am thinking in my head.
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All of this. I especially love the bolded. And I don't think women need to bend over backwards proving that they bring a lot to the table. I'm not saying that is what you meant. I am just speaking generally. I think we sometimes think we have to have X Y AND X in order to be worthy (and we sometimes run after self help books like life preservers. Sure working on the self is great, but we don't need to run marathons, write books, have multiple phds, etc etc to prove our worth. Whatever we do should be for self growth not to "measure up" so to speak). Our sheer existence in their lives, adds to it via many studies (and the reason their life expectancy goes up when married). Thus, a good wife is a good thing ( I think the Bible says that too, or something like it, but I wasn't trying to quote it).
 
caribeandiva said:
Exactly. At least those women can say they have a man :rolleyes:
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You know what @caribeandiva, sadly, that is exactly the problem. I see it ALL THE TIME and it gets on my nerves!!! Some women are so afraid of being alone that they settle for trash and do all they can to keep their trash. Women, as a whole, have not built ourselves up, allowed ourselves to be proud of the women that we are or allowed ourselves to be courageous enough to stand ALONE. Yeah, not having a SO or DH may mean not having kids or the "traditional" family but tradition has evolved far past the tradition that our parents tried to instill in us. Tradition is basically whatever we make it. And it is not our responsibility to fit into a fake, unrealistic, tired mold that society has created for us based on their own selfishness and need to stay On Top. A man should not define who we are, our status in life or our successes and failures. A man only adds to who we are - not make us.

Now, as for the working thing. I am all for women continuing to work, regardless of how much money her DH/SO earns. I be darned if I am going to allow a man to tell me how much money I can have or spend or what I can spend HIS money on. No thank you. There's only so much I'm going to hear of that everyday. I don't want to answer to anybody or be made to feel guilty or be ready to throw hands (if you have a crazy fool) when I buy whatever it is that I buy. And, I didn't go to school to sit up in the house all day or volunteer at the Help Center with Louise and Helen. I also don't live in an alimony state so if I was married to a wealthy man he could walk and leave me with nothing and no recent work experience to help get me back on my feet. Regardless, a woman should always keep her own source of income. NOTHING is promised to us.

Some of these men out here are crazy and have antiquated ways of thinking that aren't beneficial to anybody. But it's not just man's fault. They wouldn't be this ridiculous if there weren't women out here settling, supporting them and motivating them to be trash.
 
Bad&Bougee said:
I'm not so sure that men hate us. I think that not enough men know what a real woman looks like, how she behaves or what she wants. You dislike what you don't know.
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Throughout the world girls are denied educations, used as sex slaves, given away to be married to old men, etc. as if they are not of any value whatsoever. Women are consistently paid less than men for doing the same work. Men of power get away with all sorts of bad behavior towards girls and women and it is covered up by them, their staff, society, and even other women. To the point that it takes years and sometimes never for girls and women to speak up and be heard and shown any compassion. Men rape women and then society asks what did she do? What was she wearing? Young black girls get molested and society says she is fast. Most of the victims of human trafficking in the United States are black girls and young women and you rarely hear a peep about it on the news. There is evidence all around us of the hatred of women, everywhere. Not all men of course. But in general we all live in a misogynistic society. It is what it is.
 
hopeful said:
Throughout the world girls are denied educations, used as sex slaves, given away to be married to old men, etc. as if they are not of any value whatsoever. Women are consistently paid less than men for doing the same work. Men of power get away with all sorts of bad behavior towards girls and women and it is covered up by them, their staff, society, and even other women. To the point that it takes years and sometimes never for girls and women to speak up and be heard and shown any compassion. Men rape women and then society asks what did she do? What was she wearing? Young black girls get molested and society says she is fast. Most of the victims of human trafficking in the United States are black girls and young women and you rarely hear a peep about it on the news. There is evidence all around us of the hatred of women, everywhere. Not all men of course. But in general we all live in a misogynistic society. It is what it is.
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Reading this reminds me of the same treatment that Black people receive from the White man. I think it is all fear based. Of course, in this respect, I don't disagree with your post, however I do think there is a great correlation on the need to keep down a group of people. In our case, it's women. Men are afraid we will overcome and overpower.

It's like chickens coming home to roost. Men know how they have mistreated, used, abused and exploited us and they know that their injustices will not go unpunished so they sit and wait and ponder our next moves. But, in the meantime, you have men who undertake the actions you described.

However, I still think that men really don't know what a Woman is. We are not simply vessels to supply them with broods and fulfill their sexual desires or someone to keep their house and wait on them hand and foot. For centuries that's all we were to them. So as we began to stand up, they had no idea what to do. They try to keep us powerless and dependent because they don't know what to do without us underfoot. We have evolved but they have not.

We just need to make sure we continue to evolve and fight, together, everyday, for our proper place. James Brown said it best, it may be a man's world but it's nothing without a woman or a girl.
 
hopeful said:
Throughout the world girls are denied educations, used as sex slaves, given away to be married to old men, etc. as if they are not of any value whatsoever. Women are consistently paid less than men for doing the same work. Men of power get away with all sorts of bad behavior towards girls and women and it is covered up by them, their staff, society, and even other women. To the point that it takes years and sometimes never for girls and women to speak up and be heard and shown any compassion. Men rape women and then society asks what did she do? What was she wearing? Young black girls get molested and society says she is fast. Most of the victims of human trafficking in the United States are black girls and young women and you rarely hear a peep about it on the news. There is evidence all around us of the hatred of women, everywhere. Not all men of course. But in general we all live in a misogynistic society. It is what it is.
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By the way, I love reading your posts. You always give us something to think about and improve upon.
 
This 50/50 mindset is fairly new. When women started entering the workforce in larger numbers due to the expansion of women's rights, WW2, etc. - somewhere along the way men grew to depend on our income to live a certain lifestyle instead of working harder to provide that lifestyle. In other words they grew lazy.

Also, people tend to model what they see - a large percentage have been raised by single mothers who "do it all" - so men see no valid reason why their wives can't "do it all' either.

Either way men will rise to our level of expectation.

It's funny now to see the tides turning in favor of women having the option to "choose" outside employment. When DH and I decided I would stay home and raise our children most of the criticism I received was from other women. They won't bold enough to do it to my face because they know I don't bite my tongue, but word got back that all types of stuff was said.
 
hopeful said:
Can we talk more about how men treat their moms being a foreshadowing? I am wondering if some men “appear” to treat their moms well because they do not see her as a threat, or she overlooks their bad behavior, or does something else in exchange for them to be nice or spoil her. I’m just not seeing how a man can be highly emotionally intelligent, respectful of his mom as woman, etc. and be a woman abuser/hater. IMO spoiling can also be a form of manipulation especially if the mom has less resources or doesn’t have a spouse.

Also, the mother position is very different from the SO/Wife position. We all only have one mom that most do not see as replaceable. But a husband and a wife can be replaced. So maybe he tries harder with the mom or values his mom more?

A lot of black moms put their sons on pedestals too. Or she has trained him how to treat and support her but not how to treat other women, namely a future partner. Ok now I’m rambling :look:. I’ll stop.
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I've actually never seen an emotionally healthy man who treats his mother well NOT treat his wife/SO well. I also watch how the son cares for her and how he speaks, interacts with her.
 
movingforward13 said:
So on Sunday- I reposted a status on my Facebook from a guy name Nick Cooper. Nick wrote something like “Men, if you require your woman to work, then she will not respect you.” I agreed with it. Too many times I see women shacking up with men that don’t understand their role as the provider. Hell I did it before. The women would work 2-3 jobs to make sure the bills are paid while her “partner” worked half of one if not a whole one. THEN when the woman came home, she still was expected to cook, clean, do laundry, take care of the kids, and be his porn star at night.... then get up to work again the next day. Again, I did this so speaking from experience. I know better now.

Well a lot of men on my page didn’t like this meme and went as far as to say that is gold diggerish, she is looking for a sponsor, etc. And some where even getting down right disrespectful that I even had to delete some folks from my page.

What exactly happened to men as to why they don’t want to be the providers any more? I am not saying the woman should stay home all day and watch Jerry Springer, but it should be her option to work. If he picks a good one, she will have an income flow- whether through investing, working or some other way but I don’t think a woman should be REQUIRED to work and then come home to a second “job”.

Men now a days want the 50/50 financial arrangement with the traditional wife- cutting her life shorter and shorter in the process. I rather be alone than with a man who thinks I should do it all.

What say you?
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Well, I'm not as conservative and traditional as many of the women who post here, so my views are quite different.

Well, for starters, I would never stay at home, even if I did have kids. I may stay at home the first few months after the child is born, but after that, it's back to work. I have put in time and effort into obtaining education and work experience and with the income that I'm earning now, it would be a slap in the face for me to give it all up. I just feel as though you only need to stay at home if you have small children to take care of, or if you and the husband agree that it's more financially beneficial for you to stay home instead of work and pay for childcare. If you don't have children, then I question, what's the point of staying at home? I do require that my husband work and pay bills just like me, because that's what responsible adults do. I enjoy being able to earn my own money and my worst fear is that I'd quit working to be a SAM and my husband would develop a power trip and ego and become controlling or worse physically or emotionally abusive and I'd have no way to escape. Or my spouse would get hurt/disabled or laid off then we both would be sitting up looking crazy with no income.

However, in a fantasy world, if I had a man who was not abusive and very financially stable, to convince me to give up my career, he'd have to be VERY well off and be able to provide me the lifestyle that I was accustomed to providing myself as a single career woman. He'd need to make a minimum of $230K annually, continue the payments on the property that I already owned before meeting him and continue to make monthly deposits into my investment and savings accounts which would remain in my name after marriage, should he decide to leave me later on.

I don't believe in shacking before marriage, so me living with some man prior to marriage is totally out of the question. So I would not even entertain the idea of doing all this cooking/cleaning and paying bills for some negro who didn't even bother to marry me. Next, If I was married, I want a partnership, not a dictatorship. My current job sometimes requires me to work 50-60 hours a week, I can't imagine working 10-12 hours then coming home to a husband getting off work before I do, so he's sitting on the couch waiting on me to cook dinner because I have an X chromosome. Got me F***ed up. If I get married I will make it known that we both will be responsible for household stuff such as cooking and cleaning. If we both have to work then we both will cook and clean. I'm not doing double work. I'm not religious so I don't even follow that submissive wife and playing your role mess, so all that's out the window for me as well. I'm about partnership. Paying bills is not an issue for me, but on the flip side, he WILL be cooking and cleaning right along side me since I'm working too. I think this is why women are so stressed out. If you have to leave that house and work too, then there's absolutely no reason why that man should not be helping you cook and clean when he gets home too. Don't do extra work if you don't have to, because I won't. And if he is requiring you to cook, clean and take care of children without much help, then he needs to be making the kind of money to allow you to stay at home permanently, but the average BM does not earn this type of money, so unless he's in a position to do this then he needs to STFU and pick up that broom and them pots and pans and get it poppin.
 
There so much in mainstream media, songs, etc. about women being independent that our young girls coming up now dont understand that men shld provide. They expect to have to do for themselves. Im sure young boys get the same message, that they dont have to be a provider bcuz 'she got it' or 'she got her own'

Some Jamie Foxx/Ne-yo's song lyrics:
I love her cause she got her own
She don't need mine, she said leave mine alone
There ain't nothin that's more sexy
Than a girl that want, but don't need me
Young independent, yes she work hard
But you can't tell from the way that she walk
She don't slow 'em down, cause she ain't got time
To be complainin, shorty gon' shine
She don't expect nothin from no guy
She plays aggressive but she's still shy
But you'll never know her softer side, by lookin in her eyes
Knowin she can do for herself
Makes me wanna give her my wealth
Only kinda girl I want
Independent queen workin for her throne

She cant just be a queen, gotta work for it:(
 
Layluh said:
My ex husband thought like this. Even felt threatened when me and his sister were watching black girls rock one night. “Why do we need a black girls rock? What about bm”
Would always talk about how women were so protected and men weren’t. I remember him asking me one day”who’s gonna protect bm? If everyone’s protecting the women”

They hate us cause they ain’t us.
Click to expand...


Like, he's a grown, frickin, probably 175+, high testosterone man and he's looking for someone to protect him? That's why he's a freaking man! :pullhair:

God endowed him with a certain strength to provide, protect, be givers to their wives in order to receive positive feedback or praise/respect which is one of the reasons men like to hear woman emote during relations.

Even when you look at a sexual relations, a penis gives a vagina receives. A man protects, which is an outer layer/surface or act of shielding the woman from the world. We often think of a man working and a woman staying home as being anti woman or antiquated when it actually makes sense. It's simply a form of shielding and protecting the wife from the world, her mind, heart, etc. Not having to deal with coworkers, rush hour traffic and office politics can take a load off a person.

Even when you look at the way men communicate, they are usually surface level while women will talk for five minutes and say what a man said in one minute. That's because women are built to pay attention to seemingly subtle nuances that men aren't, which all goes back to the point that women make the home. We put the necessary touches and finesse that are needed, therefore any wise man would be happy for his wife to stay at home if she desires to.

I think all of this misunderstanding on a lot of people's part, man and woman goes back to not understanding your purpose or function. A door handle can't scream, "why are people always turning me?" to the mailbox. Your a door handle, that's who you are, embrace it and move on. Your a man, that's who you are, embrace it and move on.:hammer:
 
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movingforward13 said:
So on Sunday- I reposted a status on my Facebook from a guy name Nick Cooper. Nick wrote something like “Men, if you require your woman to work, then she will not respect you.” I agreed with it. Too many times I see women shacking up with men that don’t understand their role as the provider. Hell I did it before. The women would work 2-3 jobs to make sure the bills are paid while her “partner” worked half of one if not a whole one. THEN when the woman came home, she still was expected to cook, clean, do laundry, take care of the kids, and be his porn star at night.... then get up to work again the next day. Again, I did this so speaking from experience. I know better now.

Well a lot of men on my page didn’t like this meme and went as far as to say that is gold diggerish, she is looking for a sponsor, etc. And some where even getting down right disrespectful that I even had to delete some folks from my page.

What exactly happened to men as to why they don’t want to be the providers any more? I am not saying the woman should stay home all day and watch Jerry Springer, but it should be her option to work. If he picks a good one, she will have an income flow- whether through investing, working or some other way but I don’t think a woman should be REQUIRED to work and then come home to a second “job”.

Men now a days want the 50/50 financial arrangement with the traditional wife- cutting her life shorter and shorter in the process. I rather be alone than with a man who thinks I should do it all.

What say you?
Click to expand...
Is the Nick Cooper Nigerian looking and following the whole Ro train? I saw him too and added him
 
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