Wait on the Lord and Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[Ms.Honey]

FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED

I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself.

As has been cited through SEVERAL NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, the Holy Spirit has a specific role, function, and purpose for the believer. Among these specifics are:

--to edify the believer

--pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers

--and to pray the divine will of God into existence

I assert that without the Holy Spirit in general and speaking in tongues in particular, the believer is functioning in a weaker state and has fewer resources by which to overcome the wiles of the devil. I repeat, why would the Lord Jesus Christ call for the 120 to wait in the upper room (Acts 2) for the Holy Spirit to come? Because the Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord (outside of the flesh) and that the Holy Spirit has specific functions to support the believer in navigating this world. And further in Acts 2, it is mentioned that the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.


But that still is not indicating how speaking in tongues is necessary FOR salvation. I guess I should ask what you consider salvation to be. What I'm hearing is that tongues is necessary evidence that one is righteous and "saved." But then, it's said the opposite. Which is it? Necessary to BE saved or a necessary component given in the gift of salvation that not ALL believers have tapped into?

Let me ask you this since you attend both Jewish synagogue and the Catholic church and don't see the conflict.

Who do YOU say Jesus is? Is He the Christ/Messiah? Is He God in the flesh? Is He merely a prophet sent from God? Or is He merely a man who walked the earth some 2,000 years ago? Or is He all of those things?

 

[PaperClip]

You and FoxxyScholar are seeing these from diff. points of view yet you both are protestant but she's Church of G-d. Is yours non-denominational? I don't mean to intrude too much but that's why I asked which sect of protestantism. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." In coming from Jewish tradition (origin of the Church) where there was not only scripture, there was the oral law handed down from G-d to Moses and from Moses to Aaron and all in the priesthood on down up until even these generations, this has been that tradition spoken of.

So, I'm trying to figure out how tongues are necessary for salvation. It seems to be open up to diff. interpretations in a variety of protestant sects as the wind blows. That's not an insult, that's just an observation. Maybe I'm approaching this incorrectly?

Which aspect of salvation is it necessary? And I'm not even sure I comprehend salvation from your standpoint either. When people say "saved," what do they mean? From shame, sin, suffering and death? IMHO, that will be the final after one is in heaven. I'm not saved living on this earth. Conversion is one thing, perseverance until the end is another.

So, see, it's like this. 2000 years of Church history and tradition and tenets set ages ago and still followed to this very day as opposed to changing interpretations of tenets of the faith...preceded by 3 thousand years of Jewish tradition which catholics still draw from, in tact...I'm more inclined to look there for answers to questions. Not everyone is the same. Some will say there is confusion or that you're trying to sit on two chairs with one butt. But if you want to know, you go about seeking it. I don't stay cloistered at all and I refuse friends and family who try to tell me otherwise. I'm obviously not made of the same mold hehehe.

If this is disjointed...please excuse...I've got a kid in my ear trying to boost me from the computer and digging my ear with annoyances...oh boy!

I'm not part of a sect other than Christianity being an extension of Judaism. I'm non denominational.

I don't think Foxy is saying you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven but that it's important to our Christian walk. No one is saying speaking in tongues is necessary to receive salvation. I don't know why you keep saying that. As far as I can see we are saying the same thing(Foxy and I).

Catholics believe that Jesus is the Messiah and God but the Jews (non Messianic) do not believe that He is either. You are practicing both. That is what is confusion.

Are you trying to teach us what Jews and Catholics believe about stuff or do you want to know why it's important to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Just pray to God for understanding or disagree with what we believe. I don't think we can explain it any other way than we have been.

Ms. Honey is saying things more succintly than I am...and yes, Ms. Honey and I are on the same wavelength. Speaking in tongues is importanty, yes, even CRUCIAL to this earthly Christian walk.

I said I grew up in a denomination (Church of God in Christ, which is different from the Church of God). I presently attend a non-denominational church as well.

I wanted to sidestep this but WOW on attending all those different kinds of services. That has to be confusing/complex/contradictory.

 

[PaperClip]

FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED

I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself.

As has been cited through SEVERAL NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, the Holy Spirit has a specific role, function, and purpose for the believer. Among these specifics are:

--to edify the believer

--pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers

--and to pray the divine will of God into existence

I assert that without the Holy Spirit in general and speaking in tongues in particular, the believer is functioning in a weaker state and has fewer resources by which to overcome the wiles of the devil. I repeat, why would the Lord Jesus Christ call for the 120 to wait in the upper room (Acts 2) for the Holy Spirit to come? Because the Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord (outside of the flesh) and that the Holy Spirit has specific functions to support the believer in navigating this world. And further in Acts 2, it is mentioned that the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.


But that still is not indicating how speaking in tongues is necessary FOR salvation. I guess I should ask what you consider salvation to be. What I'm hearing is that tongues is necessary evidence that one is righteous and "saved." But then, it's said the opposite. Which is it? Necessary to BE saved or a necessary component given in the gift of salvation that not ALL believers have tapped into?

Your quoting is getting kind of confusing.

Where did I say that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation?

Salvation is what the Bible says it is in Romans 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

And in the gospels it is mentioned more than once about how when the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven, He would send a comforter (the Holy Spirit).

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Acts 2:8: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


Acts 2:38-39 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."

St. John 20:21-22: "Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you! [Just] as the Father has sent Me forth, so I am sending you. And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!"

 

[chicacanella]

We're a mixed family. And to tell the truth, catholics do not teach that Jews are in disobedience. Some Jews think christians are pagans with 3 G-ds. Secular Jews don't care. We here all know that's not true about christians being pagan. No. Even Shmuley Boteach, leading rabbi, has agreed that christians are monotheists.

Catholics don't teach that non-catholics are going to hell in the way many protestants do. The covenant still remains with the Jews and has not been usurped by christian gentiles. Israel is still Israel. Jews haven't been thrown out and replaced. Gentiles, according to catholicism, have been grated onto the vine. That vine is Jewish, it came first.

I do realize there are varying opinions about the Messiah. Messianic Judaism attempts to address this issue. There are also associations of Jews who have become catholic and address these issues. Not confusion...but through study, through seeking, one arrives at truths.
In other words, I don't think G-d expects anyone to throw out their brains to be religious. Question, argue, question, argue, and on and on...I mean with G-d. This is the Jew's existence, believe me.

I've been asking you to explain the baptism of the H-ly Ghost according to your traditions. So, I guess, in light of the catholic interpretation, how exactly the protestant sect differs according to exegesis. Just quoting scripture doesn't seem enough because both are quoting scripture. It's in the widely held, studied and agreed upon interpretation as one body or through a magisterium that I'm seeking to witness. I dunno, was it Calvinism? Luther? What?

You and FoxxyScholar are seeing these from diff. points of view yet you both are protestant but she's Church of G-d. Is yours non-denominational? I don't mean to intrude too much but that's why I asked which sect of protestantism. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." In coming from Jewish tradition (origin of the Church) where there was not only scripture, there was the oral law handed down from G-d to Moses and from Moses to Aaron and all in the priesthood on down up until even these generations, this has been that tradition spoken of.

So, I'm trying to figure out how tongues are necessary for salvation. It seems to be open up to diff. interpretations in a variety of protestant sects as the wind blows. That's not an insult, that's just an observation. Maybe I'm approaching this incorrectly?

Which aspect of salvation is it necessary? And I'm not even sure I comprehend salvation from your standpoint either. When people say "saved," what do they mean? From shame, sin, suffering and death? IMHO, that will be the final after one is in heaven. I'm not saved living on this earth. Conversion is one thing, perseverance until the end is another.

So, see, it's like this. 2000 years of Church history and tradition and tenets set ages ago and still followed to this very day as opposed to changing interpretations of tenets of the faith...preceded by 3 thousand years of Jewish tradition which catholics still draw from, in tact...I'm more inclined to look there for answers to questions. Not everyone is the same. Some will say there is confusion or that you're trying to sit on two chairs with one butt. But if you want to know, you go about seeking it. I don't stay cloistered at all and I refuse friends and family who try to tell me otherwise. I'm obviously not made of the same mold hehehe.

If this is disjointed...please excuse...I've got a kid in my ear trying to boost me from the computer and digging my ear with annoyances...oh boy!

I've been in this whole thread and I have not observed Foxy nor Ms. Honey say that tongues are necessary for salvation. Where are you getting this from? And to quote, all you need to do is click on the quote button. For multiquoting, click on the plus sign button and after you have chosen everyone's post you want to respond to, then click post reply.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I'm non denominational....




I don't think Foxy is saying you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven but that it's important to our Christian walk. No one is saying speaking in tongues is necessary to receive salvation. I don't know why you keep saying that. As far as I can see we are saying the same thing(Foxy and I).

Catholics believe that Jesus is the Messiah and God but the Jews (non Messianic) do not believe that He is either. You are practicing both. That is what is confusion.

Are you trying to teach us what Jews and Catholics believe about stuff or do you want to know why it's important to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Just pray to God for understanding or disagree with what we believe. I don't think we can explain it any other way than we have been.

Non-denominational, that would be your "sect." It was stated various times that speaking in tongues is necessary. That would imply that it's necessary to salvation. I've asked various times for that to be explained. Now you are saying it is not necessary...check the posts...was stated various times that it is necessary.

Am I trying to teach you Judaism and catholicism? G-d forbid. Emphatic NO. I am trying to figure out what YOU believe in relation to what others believe but I guess the problem is that you provide no documentation. I guess I'm used to another tradition. Without sources, interpretation is subjective and becomes yours and mine. I wished to know WHY you believe what you believe based upon the largely held sets of beliefs or tenets to the faith. You can'[t even agree with FoxxyScholar on this issue and I'm just trying to get to the "bottom" of it and why there are differences in the importance of it. This is one reason I asked which denomination you are.

Am I confused? No, not at all. I was there at Sinai. I wouldn't try and tell someone they were confused unless you can see who and what they are, in their soul. With all due respect, you're neither a Jew nor a Catholic and I don't think you should actually go there to try and tell me "something" about myself based upon your lack of knowledge about it. There are many multi-faith/multi-cultural families. You probably didn't mean it that way. Our stance is non-judgemental by default.

Like mentioned before, I was asking a general question based upon the largest "sect" of christianity, that being the orthodox and catholic or east and western universal churches about what YOU all mean by the baptism of the H-ly Spirit. I asked for documents. If you come across some, ex., if your pastor can recommend some readings, please pass them along to me. I'd be happy to read them.

I don't judge folks...at least, I don't try to judge them and if and when I find myself doing it, I repent lol. No, I'm not trying to proselytize anybody. In fact, I hate proselytization, in either direction it flies after me...and it has.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I've been in this whole thread and I have not observed Foxy nor Ms. Honey say that tongues are necessary for salvation. Where are you getting this from? And to quote, all you need to do is click on the quote button. For multiquoting, click on the plus sign button and after you have chosen everyone's post you want to respond to, then click post reply.

What's happening is that posts are not being quoted correctly nor attributed to the OP of it. They are getting mixed up without proper labeling. But this is from post number #74 and my question was always HOW it is necessary to salvation. In other words, is it one of the goodies in the whole gift of salvation or is it necessary to have the salvation in the first place. I'm not getting answered for that when the following is stated.....Post num. #74 Content is in paragraph 4 in mauve:


Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyScholar
Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language.
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.

I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it.
__________________
Hey God, if you exist, prove it to ME. Hey God, there are so many different religions, which way do You want ME to worship You? Hey God, is your name Jesus? I don't believe that. If it is, then Jesus you need to prove it to ME.So simple.Covers just about everything including our tails if He is really real, right? If He's real as some claim, dare Him to step up. CONVERTED ATHEISTS MAKE THE BEST CHRISTIANS!

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

So, regarding post #96 and I believe it was MsHoney who said that "I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it. " ...

I ask how is it crucial? If someone - one of my friends - asked me about the RCC/Orthodox or protestant churches and their belief on salvation, what is it, how to get it, why is it important...which has happened, what am I supposed to tell them? I'm hearing conflicting information from diff. groups that claim christianity on what salvation is. If somebody tells me that it's crucial to speak tongues, that it is a necessary component of salvation and they don't explain exactly how but that it's not a requirement for heaven but it's crucial, necessary...conflict! You guys are looking at me...and I'm looking at y'all!!!!1 So, which is it?

And what I suspect is that it's based upon either personal or congregational interpretation and not according to the large singular (well, we realize there are sects of it) group of people who call themselves christians. It seem to be open up to individual interpretation.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Your quoting is getting kind of confusing.

Where did I say that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation?

Salvation is what the Bible says it is in Romans 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

And in the gospels it is mentioned more than once about how when the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven, He would send a comforter (the Holy Spirit).

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Acts 2:8: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


Acts 2:38-39 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."

St. John 20:21-22: "Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you! [Just] as the Father has sent Me forth, so I am sending you. And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!"

It's not my quoting, at some point, somebody fused them without attributing names. But I agree...it's getting mixed up.

 

[Ms.Honey]

Non-denominational, that would be your "sect." It was stated various times that speaking in tongues is necessary. That would imply that it's necessary to salvation. I've asked various times for that to be explained. Now you are saying it is not necessary...check the posts...was stated various times that it is necessary.

Am I trying to teach you Judaism and catholicism? G-d forbid. Emphatic NO. I am trying to figure out what YOU believe in relation to what others believe.

Am I confused? No, not at all. I was there at Sinai. I wouldn't try and tell someone they were confused unless you can see who and what they are, in their soul. With all due respect, you're neither a Jew nor a Catholic and I don't think you should actually go there to try and tell me "something" about myself based upon your lack of knowledge about it. There are many multi-faith/multi-cultural families. You probably didn't mean it that way. Our stance is non-judgemental by default.

Like mentioned before, I was asking a general question based upon the largest "sect" of christianity, that being the orthodox and catholic or east and western universal churches about what YOU all mean by the baptism of the H-ly Spirit. I asked for documents. If you come across some, ex., if your pastor can recommend some readings, please pass them along to me. I'd be happy to read them.

I don't judge folks...at least, I don't try to judge them and if and when I find myself doing it, I repent lol. No, I'm not trying to proselytize anybody. In fact, I hate proselytization, in either direction it flies after me...and it has.

What do you mean by, "I was there at Sinai?"
I wasn't saying you were a confused person I said it's confusion to practice two different religions. I remember you posted a thread about how to know which God wanted you to practice or something like that. Have you decided to practice both? Are you saying you and DH are of these differing religions and that's why you attend both?

It has nothing to do with judgment from me or either of those religions. It is confusion to have two religions who are in conflict regarding their teachings. Are you Catholic or Jewish or neither and just attend both services? Wait a minute, are you saying that you attend both services at one place? Your place of worship mixes Judaism and Catholicism in one service? I'm confused.

No one said it was necessary for salvation neither did we imply it but we said it is necessary for your walk in Christ to keep you from falling because it strengthens us. It is important, it helps tremendously but you can still go to heaven without receiving it. We keep saying that but you keep saying we are saying you need it for salvation. Unless you mean salvation as in "work out your own salvation"(Christian walk)? We quoted those scriptures already.

I think you should start a different thread if you want to discuss the difference between what the Protestants, Jews and Catholics believe about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost and water baptism. We are kinda all over the place with multiple topics. As far as I know, Catholics believe in receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues but they don't believe it's necessary to receive everlasting life either. Maybe one of the Catholic sisters will chime in on your thread.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Ms. Honey is saying things more succintly than I am...and yes, Ms. Honey and I are on the same wavelength. Speaking in tongues is importanty, yes, even CRUCIAL to this earthly Christian walk.

Crucial, there's that word again...deciding factor, necessary. So, unless you speak tongues, you're not really walking as a christian? I'm not trying to confound but am trying to get you two to say how it's crucial...important? Perhaps...but crucial???

I wanted to sidestep this but WOW on attending all those different kinds of services. That has to be confusing/complex/contradictory.

No, not at all. Both use a liturgy, there is substantial "old testament" in the RCC in the liturgy. Elements carried directly through. Like I said, there are quite a few folks I know who do what we do. What I would say is difficult is the union of a pentecostal and an orthodox christian. That is a riot because they judge each other to death...we've got a few of those in the family. The problem is in judging and condeming folks. I don't teach this to my kids.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

What do you mean by, "I was there at Sinai?"
I wasn't saying you were a confused person I said it's confusion to practice two different religions. I remember you posted a thread about how to know which God wanted you to practice or something like that. Have you decided to practice both? Are you saying you and DH are of these differing religions and that's why you attend both?

It has nothing to do with judgment from me or either of those religions. It is confusion to have two religions who are in conflict regarding their teachings. Are you Catholic or Jewish or neither and just attend both services? Wait a minute, are you saying that you attend both services at one place? Your place of worship mixes Judaism and Catholicism in one service? I'm confused.

No one said it was necessary for salvation neither did we imply it but we said it is necessary for your walk in Christ to keep you from falling because it strengthens us. It is important, it helps tremendously but you can still go to heaven without receiving it. We keep saying that but you keep saying we are saying you need it for salvation. Unless you mean salvation as in "work out your own salvation"(Christian walk)? We quoted those scriptures already.

I think you should start a different thread if you want to discuss the difference between what the Protestants, Jews and Catholics believe about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost and water baptism. We are kinda all over the place with multiple topics. As far as I know, Catholics believe in receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues but they don't believe it's necessary to receive everlasting life either. Maybe one of the Catholic sisters will chime in on your thread.

I think I explained my reasoning earlier and I'm a bright one. Yes, you implied confused person. Confusion, confused person...same thing. But that's okay, my feelings aren't hurt. I wanted to know why YOU believe that there is a baptism of the H-ly Spirit separate from that received in baptism.

Then the issue of its cruciality was brought up at some point. Someone can't answer the question. The reason I was comparing the information with catholicism is that YOUR christianity came from the universal church and after the reformation, down through the line, another "sect" was formed and is all based upon interpretation of the original...you explained non-denominational....I get it. Going to the source and trying to figure out how you arrived at that conclusion??? Someone can't answer the question, though, why they chose to say it was necessary. But I disagree that it wasn't said ...it's right there in English, post #74 and the quotes were incorrectly merged so it's hard to tell who said it. I know I didn't. It's there. I asked why it was said "necessary." It's really simple. Don't use the word if that's not what was meant. I'll leave it alone.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Let me ask you this since you attend both Jewish synagogue and the Catholic church and don't see the conflict.

Who do YOU say Jesus is? Is He the Christ/Messiah? Is He God in the flesh? Is He merely a prophet sent from God? Or is He merely a man who walked the earth some 2,000 years ago? Or is He all of those things?

I wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction of trying to condemn me to hell.

 

[Ms.Honey]

So, regarding post #96 and I believe it was MsHoney who said that "I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it. " ...

I ask how is it crucial? If someone - one of my friends - asked me about the RCC/Orthodox or protestant churches and their belief on salvation, what is it, how to get it, why is it important...which has happened, what am I supposed to tell them? I'm hearing conflicting information from diff. groups that claim christianity on what salvation is. If somebody tells me that it's crucial to speak tongues, that it is a necessary component of salvation and they don't explain exactly how but that it's not a requirement for heaven but it's crucial, necessary...conflict! You guys are looking at me...and I'm looking at y'all!!!!1 So, which is it?

And what I suspect is that it's based upon either personal or congregational interpretation and not according to the large singular (well, we realize there are sects of it) group of people who call themselves christians. It seem to be open up to individual interpretation.

Ok, I think I see where you're getting confused.

When you ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you aand repent of your sins, you receive the promise of salvation, you become born again (saved). When you want to publicly align yourself with Jesus you ask to receive a water baptism AFTER you ask Jesus to save you. You HAVE to be already saved to receive water baptism. When you want to receive the power to become a witness Jesus said He would give us you ask to receive the baptism of the HolyGhost. It is important and necessary crucial to receive the both baptisms to live to our full potential as Christians BUT neither baptism is a requirement to receive salvation because you MUST receive salvation first. You can go to heaven without receiving either baptism and you can also be a great Christian without receiving either it is just going to be harder to fight temptation among other things that it provides for us without that power if you don't.

 

[Ms.Honey]

I wouldn't give anyone the satisfaction of trying to condemn me to hell.

I just asked what you believed, who do YOU say Jesus is, like you have been asking us what we believe. Now I'm trying to condemn you to hell? Were you trying to condemn us to hell by asking those simple questions? I didn't think so but whatever.

I quit

 

[firecracker]

Speaking in tongues is important to some folks. No matter how much ya'll scream about how important it is in your world. Folks ain't gonna agree with everything you say or your truth. Whatever ya'll do just don't slap the heck outta me when you bust into the holy ghost or pig latin. LOL

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I just asked what you believed, who do YOU say Jesus is, like you have been asking us what we believe. Now I'm trying to condemn you to hell? Were you trying to condemn us to hell by asking those simple questions? I didn't think so but whatever.

I quit

It's cool. I already told you what I believe. Who me? Never. But you know my questions were for you to show how you arrived at that conclusion ..throu widely-held interpretation? And you and I know that your last question wasn't a theological question. The issue was how important is speaking in tongues and whether (as it was stated previously) it is necessary for salvation and how one arrived at that conclusion.

 

[Ms.Honey]

It's cool. I already told you what I believe. Who me? Never. But you know my questions were for you to show how you arrived at that conclusion ..throu widely-held interpretation? And you and I know that your last question wasn't a theological question. The issue was how important is speaking in tongues and whether (as it was stated previously) it is necessary for salvation and how one arrived at that conclusion.

OT: Your name, what is it? What does it mean?

I still don't know who you think Jesus is because you haven't answered that. I remember you started a thread asking us to pray for you because you were unsure what to do.
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=311491

None of my J- friends/family have the right answer for me because of my obvious affiliation with the C. None of the C- members (and I've consulted 2 priests but didn't get the answer) comprehend my dilemma in the way that I presented it. I don't desire to be a part of this one separate org. that blends the two because I do not trust their theology. If I wish to be J, then I know to go the orthodox route. If I choose to be C, then I prefer the oldest form of it. I've been a part previously and it proved to be frustrating. Perhaps G-d will reveal something at a specific time and we'll all open our eyes. Until then, I feel incomplete.

What I'm trying to say without spilling it all out in all the details is what do you do when you have supernatural events in your life that lend credibility to what others would consider two separate faiths? I'm seeing something that my family is not and it's troubling me because the soul of them are so attached to me. Either choice, I am very much alone in this.

I truly pain to write this but I guess that I should just ask for you all to pray for me. Pray that I find why these events seek me out. Before someone get alarmed I'm hallucinating or witnessing something diabolical, it's not. Not at all. It's just that there are some of us in between (judaism and christianity) and (Jews for Jesus is not an option for a variety of reasons) I guess, not all is revealed. I know, it's rather cryptic...but just please pray that G-d answers my question.

Mat 6:24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[HeChangedMyName]

For the record, I tried to stay out of this thread, but speaking in tongues isn't necessary for salvation, however it is to serve several reasons. Foxy stated some of them earlier it is also to serve as evidence of the Holy Spirit. However, if you have ever read the parable of the servants and and there talents and gifts.. . .you'll know that the last thing that God wants you to do is to hide what he gave you and return it to him without any growth. With that being said, MY OPINION and BELIEF is that you must be saved to be water baptized and then you must ask and be willing and ready to receive the batizm of the Holy Spirit, once you have that then you can communicate with God in a way that the devil can't hear or know about, and on top of that, lives are changed for hearing people speak in tongues in some cases. . .like when a sinner understands the tongues and comes to Jesus because that message you just babbled was for them on a spiritual level. The devil will have Christians confused about speaking in tongues(of course because he wants to lessen the importance of it so that he can keep his ear out on what we are saying to God in the natural and keep us living naturally rather than spiritually, but that's an entirely different thread) til the end of time, so the best place to seek the truth is with God himself.

 

[Ms.Honey]

It's cool. I already told you what I believe. Who me? Never. But you know my questions were for you to show how you arrived at that conclusion ..throu widely-held interpretation? And you and I know that your last question wasn't a theological question. The issue was how important is speaking in tongues and whether (as it was stated previously) it is necessary for salvation and how one arrived at that conclusion.

Ok, I think I see where you're getting confused.

When you ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you aand repent of your sins, you receive the promise of salvation, you become born again (saved). When you want to publicly align yourself with Jesus you ask to receive a water baptism AFTER you ask Jesus to save you. You HAVE to be already saved to receive water baptism. When you want to receive the power to become a witness Jesus said He would give us you ask to receive the baptism of the HolyGhost. It is important and necessary crucial to receive the both baptisms to live to our full potential as Christians BUT neither baptism is a requirement to receive salvation because you MUST receive salvation first. You can go to heaven without receiving either baptism and you can also be a great Christian without receiving either it is just going to be harder to fight temptation among other things that it provides for us without that power if you don't.

We gave you scriptures but I think you want us to give you some religious writings apart from them. We don't use any. We just go by what the scripture says. We use the holy bible only.

 

[NGraceO]

Water baptism is an outward sign of an inner grace. It's a sign to the world that you've made your allegiance with Christ. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an empowerment promised by Jesus to all generations, not ending with the early church. The book of Acts speaks of people receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit past Pentacost, you have to read the WHOLE book of Acts.

All Israel is not of the promise. He speaks of who specifically is Israel. He said all in Israel is not of Israel (Rom. 9:6) and Abraham had many sons not just Ishmael and Issac, but not all will be blessed in the same way. He speaks of who is Israel," Your mother is a Hittite(black woman) and your father is an Amorite (Eze. 16)

Do you have a scripture reference for this claim?? I believe that bolded phrase is incorrect. In Romans 6:3-5 it clearly states that baptism is one participating in the death, burial, and resurrection of christ....nothing stated of "symbolism." Also, in Acts 2:38, it states that your must repent then be baptized for the forgivness of sins. Therefore I take from that baptism leads to forgiveness of sins, period. Acts al;so makes it clear that you must first believe (or accept the message of christ), repent, then be baptized. Those three canNot be separted.

Did someone actually say that in this thread? I don't recall that. Tongues is a sign that you have received the Baptism.

Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.

Yes it does. John 3:5. water & the spirit= baptism. (water = baptism, spirit=the gift you recieve when you are baptized. acts 2:38) Also 1 peter 3:20 states that baptism SAVES us.

All scriptures referred to:

Romans 6:3-5 (New International Version)


3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Acts 2:38 (New International Version)


38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 (New International Version)


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.




1 Peter 3:20-22 (New International Version)
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


HTH LADIES!!!! MUAH!!

ETA:
I posted this after reading only a coupla pages of this post. I posted to correct some conceptions which had no bibical foundation. after reading a coupla more pages, I see this thread has turned into something it shouldn't have. I believe the Word of God speaks for itself, therefore we shouldn't argue about it. Bickering isn't of God (2 timothy2:23-24). I won't be back btw.
(hehe) God bless all!
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (New International Version)

This seemed like a great scripture to accompany my exit:
" 3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain."
-2timothy 6:3-5

 

[Ms.Honey]

Do you have a scripture reference for this claim?? I believe that bolded phrase is incorrect. In Romans 6:3-5 it clearly states that baptism is one participating in the death, burial, and resurrection of christ....nothing stated of "symbolism." Also, in Acts 2:38, it states that your must repent then be baptized for the forgivness of sins. Therefore I take from that baptism leads to forgiveness of sins, period. Acts al;so makes it clear that you must first believe (or accept the message of christ), repent, then be baptized. Those three canNot be separted.



Yes it does. John 3:5. water & the spirit= baptism. (water = baptism, spirit=the gift you recieve when you are baptized. acts 2:38) Also 1 peter 3:20 states that baptism SAVES us.

All scriptures referred to:

Romans 6:3-5 (New International Version)


3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Acts 2:38 (New International Version)


38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 (New International Version)


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.




1 Peter 3:20-22 (New International Version)
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


HTH LADIES!!!! MUAH!!

ETA:
I posted this after reading only a coupla pages of this post. I posted to correct some conceptions which had no bibical foundation. after reading a coupla more pages, I see this thread has turned into something it shouldn't have. I believe the Word of God speaks for itself, therefore we shouldn't argue about it. Bickering isn't of God (2 timothy2:23-24). I won't be back btw.
(hehe) God bless all!
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (New International Version)

This seemed like a great scripture to accompany my exit:
" 3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain."
-2timothy 6:3-5

Ummm, you need to use a concordance or bible dictionary or something. We are saved by grace which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. If water baptism saved us then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross He would have just told us to be baptized with water.

HIS RESURRECTION IS THE BAPTISM.
He went into the ground in His mortal body(submersion symbolizes this) and He arose from the dead in His new immortal body (raising from the submersion of water symbolizes this) that is what water baptism symbolizes. Every other baptism SYMBOLIZES the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus from the OT to the NT ex. God causing the waters to recede and dividing them above and below the firmament in the beginning, Noah's flood, Moses SPRINKLING NOT SUBMERGING Israel with hyssop, John the Baptists baptisms, Jesus' first baptism, Lazarus' resurrection, the Ethiopians' in the DESERT, the Apostles and ours.

Water doesn't save us, can not cleanse us or make us whole. The blood of Jesus washing over us (baptism) is the only thing that can and does through repentance of our sins and asking Him to save us at the time of salvation. We are also washed with the water of the Word another form of baptism(cleansing). We get baptized with water out of obedience to God not unto salvation.

 

[firecracker]

For the record, I tried to stay out of this thread, but speaking in tongues isn't necessary for salvation, however it is to serve several reasons. Foxy stated some of them earlier it is also to serve as evidence of the Holy Spirit. However, if you have ever read the parable of the servants and and there talents and gifts.. . .you'll know that the last thing that God wants you to do is to hide what he gave you and return it to him without any growth. With that being said, MY OPINION and BELIEF is that you must be saved to be water baptized and then you must ask and be willing and ready to receive the batizm of the Holy Spirit, once you have that then you can communicate with God in a way that the devil can't hear or know about, and on top of that, lives are changed for hearing people speak in tongues in some cases. . .like when a sinner understands the tongues and comes to Jesus because that message you just babbled was for them on a spiritual level. The devil will have Christians confused about speaking in tongues(of course because he wants to lessen the importance of it so that he can keep his ear out on what we are saying to God in the natural and keep us living naturally rather than spiritually, but that's an entirely different thread) til the end of time, so the best place to seek the truth is with God himself.

Its a gift but bible beating isn't thats for sure. Jesus didn't beat folks into thinking like he thought. He performed miracles and acts. The Devil can't beat God no matter how or what style you praise him.