Wait on the Lord and Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[Ms.Honey]

When did tongues start being a sign of recieving Baptism? The last paragrah is true. Gossiping and wishing bad on others that we don't agree with is a sin also.

When you replied to FoxxyScholar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyScholar
Yes, this is true. This is how THE WORLD will know us: by our love. ETA: I suppose not only the world, but everyone in the world, fellow believers and everybody else).
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (St. John 13:35, KJV).

34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other." (The Message)

We demonstrate agape love by our conduct (not (necessarily) by our works) but in how we behave and treat others.

And yet the Holy Spirit has a specific purpose and function for each and every believer. What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER? (Acts 2:38-29).


This is what I thought you meant when you replied:

Speaking in Tongues is that sign. [/quote]



[/quote]Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.[/quote]

???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)

I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence. It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion. I see a Jewish precedent to baptism.[/quote]

I promise that I'll answer this sometime today or tonight if I have the chance or at least within the next few days.


MERRY CHRISTMAS LADIES!!!!!!!!!!!! JESUS IS LORD AND GOD!!!!!!!!!! GOD BLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

What I'm saying is through the heavenly language, there's ACCESS to an EVEN CLOSER, DEEPER relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

I feel like I should say for caution (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and in response to your post here is to forgive me for overemphasizing(?) speaking in tongues above other workings of the Holy Spirit. I believe I'm in the Word of God when I emphasize and advocate speaking in tongues. I do not mean to say that if one does not speak in tongues that they are not saved, or that they are going to hell and all that. I do believe what the Bible says about speaking in tongues is that outright, tangible, visible EVIDENCE of the infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4)

What I am saying is that speaking in tongues opens ACCESS to an EVEN CLOSER, DEEPER relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ...higher heights and deeper depths in the Lord...in worship...in relationship...in service...in ministry....

You know I try and sneak in a joke at every junction...it's my nature lol. That's why I apologized ahead of time.

But, according to the ancient and first church, the closest one can get is to receive Christ in the transubstantiated body and blood through holy communion. That's direct closeness...His flesh and blood inside of a person.

I've learned so much in these threads over here...about the differences and it's highly important that people know. I'm glad you all are engaging me in this discussion. I think the most tragic thing is not "knowing" you neighbor - not judging, but actually knowing them and I have many neighbors of many different religions, cultures and belief systems. Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[chicacanella]

Great comparison for those who need more understandin of the holy spirit received at the time of salvation and the baptism of the holy spirit.

"The difference between receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation and being baptized in the Holy Spirit can be explained like this: You can be led to a pool of water and drink from it (receive the Holy Spirit at salvation), or you can jump fully into the water (be baptized with the Holy Spirit). It’s the same water (Holy Spirit), but you have a completely different experience."

 

[PaperClip]

You know I try and sneak in a joke at every junction...it's my nature lol. That's why I apologized ahead of time.

But, according to the ancient and first church, the closest one can get is to receive Christ in the transubstantiated body and blood through holy communion. That's direct closeness...His flesh and blood inside of a person.

I've learned so much in these threads over here...about the differences and it's highly important that people know. I'm glad you all are engaging me in this discussion. I think the most tragic thing is not "knowing" you neighbor - not judging, but actually knowing them and I have many neighbors of many different religions, cultures and belief systems. Merry Christmas to you all.

It's all good....

I don't dispute your point about the significance of holy communion. I LOVE the sacrament of holy communion. And it is what it is....

This does not take away from the significance of speaking in tongues, which can be done anytime, anyplace, anywhere.... holy communion doesn't work like that, per se.

 

[firecracker]

What I don't understand is why you are making a big deal out of folks receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. If you don't want to receive it then don't ask for it, simple. Folks posted that they do want to receive it so they asked for it and about it.

And yes a sin is a sin, no one denies that but it's also true that when you go to set a snare for someone you fall into your own trap. You may want to think about who's really being a phony and also a hypocrite as a Christian before you post. You had to be sinning to be malicious and petty to try to catch me in a lie in the first place (which you and your friend have not) Focus on your own sins. Is it really that serious?

I never said that I NEVER sin. Read exactly what I said. What I said was that I have not PHYSICALLY sinned since I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I made sure that I said physically and not that I never sin at all because that's humanly impossible for anyone other than Jesus. I have sinned since being baptized with the Holy Spirit not PHYSICALLY but in word and thought AND have repented, another gift from God, the gift of forgiveness. Didn't know I was expected or needed to go back to tell that to folks I no longer deal with or speak to that I had to repent to God for something I said MONTHS ago (don't remember that scripture) but hey I don't USUALLY do disclaimers so enjoy this one. You need to build better traps chica.

Who was making a big deal about this issue? Your unhappy and angry because I don't give a diddly about your ideology or interpretation of folks getting the holy ghost and sins. You got issues with yourself. Why would I be setting a trap for you? Your paranoid sweetie. I guess your guilty of something from your response. I ain't neva been sitting next to you in church or otherwise for you to flip into the tongues. Your name isn't Ms Covan or Keisha is it? Your always up in some thread going on a tangent when you think someone ain't agreeing with you. Get a grip and stop starting unnessary madness You can't beat me upside the head with a bible but you can find a live audience to do that too hopefully. Paranoia at its best! Your important to somebody but it defininitely ain't me. So entertain that trap bs elsewhere and with someone else. Hippogrit and phony must hit a nerve witcha.

 

[firecracker]

harbouring resentments :

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

It's all good....

I don't dispute your point about the significance of holy communion. I LOVE the sacrament of holy communion. And it is what it is....

This does not take away from the significance of speaking in tongues, which can be done anytime, anyplace, anywhere.... holy communion doesn't work like that, per se.

You receive and maintain the graces in a state outside of mortal sin. One is restored in reconciliation. Every reception of communion washes venial sins. I'm not saying one shouldn't speak holy tongues nor seek it and there are catholics who do under the charismatics. Every moment, every day is an opportunity to get closer to G-d. I just fail to see the same level of significance in relation to the holiest of sacraments, communion, where one actually eats the living flesh and blood of Christ. It becomes his actual flesh and blood when consummed. Holy language, IMHO, cannot usurp that in the least. It's life to the believer. You know, according to the RCC and Easterns.

I'm trying to figure out when the breakaway sects determined that the reception of the H-ly Spirit is different in baptism (of the soul, conversion to Christ) and that there is a "baptism" of the H-ly Spirit beyond that received in conversion. That's probably the point where I need documents!!!

How many times I need to edit this? Keep forgetting....


I was going to say that the sacrifice in the Temple is the precedent and continuation of it in h-ly communion.

 

[PaperClip]

You receive and maintain the graces in a state outside of mortal sin. One is restored in reconciliation. Every reception of communion washes venial sins. I'm not saying one shouldn't speak holy tongues nor seek it and there are catholics who do under the charismatics. Every moment, every day is an opportunity to get closer to G-d. I just fail to see the same level of significance in relation to the holiest of sacraments, communion, where one actually eats the living flesh and blood of Christ. It becomes his actual flesh and blood when consummed. Holy language, IMHO, cannot usurp that in the least. It's life to the believer. You know, according to the RCC and Easterns.

I'm trying to figure out when the breakaway sects determined that the reception of the H-ly Spirit is different in baptism (of the soul, conversion to Christ) and that there is a "baptism" of the H-ly Spirit beyond that received in conversion. That's probably the point where I need documents!!!

How many times I need to edit this? Keep forgetting....


I was going to say that the sacrifice in the Temple is the precedent and continuation of it in h-ly communion.

I respect your perspective, although I'm not sure of the origins and I don't understand the references re. RCC and Easterns and washing of venial sins.

And I believe the heavenly language is up there with holy communion with regard to significance. Out of the mouths of two or more witnesses so let the word be established. More than one book in the bible talks about speaking in tongues (Acts and Romans) whereas the sacrament of holy communion is mentioned specifically in 1 Corinthians (only one book).

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I respect your perspective, although I'm not sure of the origins and I don't understand the references re. RCC and Easterns and washing of venial sins.

And I believe the heavenly language is up there with holy communion with regard to significance. Out of the mouths of two or more witnesses so let the word be established. More than one book in the bible talks about speaking in tongues (Acts and Romans) whereas the sacrament of holy communion is mentioned specifically in 1 Corinthians (only one book).

It's not my perspective, it's the East/Western Church's perspective. Sins carry diff. weights. Some break your relationship off with G-d whereas other do not. Depends upon the severity along with complete knowledge and will in committance and seriousness of the offense.

I think that it would then have become a sacrament of the Church. Do you have any references on books, articles written on it? I'd like to do some reading up on it. I did find this tho... haven't read yet but will soon:
http://www.ccr.org.uk/archive/gn0711/g09.htm

Communion is the basis of the mass...cannot have a mass without communion so it is the absolute focus of it, the purpose of it. It's precedent was the sacrifice in the Temple where sins were remitted. And I believe that Acts is speaking about that one-time birth of the Church whereby the promised descent of the H-ly Spirit came to pass.

Where are the protestant documents? Books? Articles lending light on the issue? I wouldn't know where to start...it's hard enough finding the catholic ones. I just don't want to get something written by a "nutcase" but a respected theologian lolol!

 

[Ms.Honey]

When you replied to FoxxyScholar:



Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxyScholar

Yes, this is true. This is how THE WORLD will know us: by our love. ETA: I suppose not only the world, but everyone in the world, fellow believers and everybody else).

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (St. John 13:35, KJV).



34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other." (The Message)



We demonstrate agape love by our conduct (not (necessarily) by our works) but in how we behave and treat others.



And yet the Holy Spirit has a specific purpose and function for each and every believer. What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER? (Acts 2:38-29).





This is what I thought you meant when you replied:



Speaking in Tongues is that sign.







Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things.



???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)



I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence. It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion. I see a Jewish precedent to baptism.

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

I'm not sure whether or not the Duoay-Rheims translation of the bible is a word for word translation or a thought for thought translation. The KJV which is a word for word translation of the original texts says,

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

In verse 5 Jesus is saying that you must experience natural birth by a woman her water breaks and the child comes forth (born of water) and spiritual birth born of the HolyGhost (born again). He reiterates that in the next verse, verse 6, that which is born of flesh is flesh (natural birth, amnioitic fluid, born of water by the mom) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth, water of life, born of the Holy Ghost). He's explaining to him that we need to be born of the Holy Spirit (born again) to go to heaven. He's not speaking of water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Ghost in those verses.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Speaking in Tongues is that sign.

[/quote]Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things



???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)



I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence. It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion. I see a Jewish precedent to baptism

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

I'm not sure whether or not the Duoay-Rheims translation of the bible is a word for word translation or a thought for thought translation. The KJV which is a word for word translation of the original texts says,

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

In verse 5 Jesus is saying that you must experience natural birth by a woman her water breaks and the child comes forth (born of water) and spiritual birth born of the HolyGhost (born again). He reiterates that in the next verse, verse 6, that which is born of flesh is flesh (natural birth, amnioitic fluid, born of water by the mom) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth, water of life, born of the Holy Ghost). He's explaining to him that we need to be born of the Holy Spirit (born again) to go to heaven. He's not speaking of water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Ghost in those verses.[/quote]

Then why did He say you must be born both of water and of Spirit? In other words, is this the new circumcision? sorry, I tried getting the previous posting in blue to keep quotes together...not working.

 

[Ms.Honey]

Some folks tradition may say that but the bible does not say that you need to be baptized with water or receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to heaven or to receive salvation. What it does say is the Baptism stregthens us to keep His commandments among other things



???In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." (online source)



I believe that christians take this from the Jewish example (as christians were Jews ..then influx of gentiles) as the mikveh or water pool with a natural source in which one is submerged totally to transform body and soul to a higher religious state and in the case of converts, to a new existence. It was precisely prescribed by Jewish law and one is purified through submersion. I see a Jewish precedent to baptism

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

I'm not sure whether or not the Duoay-Rheims translation of the bible is a word for word translation or a thought for thought translation. The KJV which is a word for word translation of the original texts says,

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

In verse 5 Jesus is saying that you must experience natural birth by a woman her water breaks and the child comes forth (born of water) and spiritual birth born of the HolyGhost (born again). He reiterates that in the next verse, verse 6, that which is born of flesh is flesh (natural birth, amnioitic fluid, born of water by the mom) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth, water of life, born of the Holy Ghost). He's explaining to him that we need to be born of the Holy Spirit (born again) to go to heaven. He's not speaking of water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Ghost in those verses.

Then why did He say you must be born both of water and of Spirit? In other words, is this the new circumcision? sorry, I tried getting the previous posting in blue to keep quotes together...not working.

No, Jesus said that a man must be born again(reborn) Nicodemis asked Him how can a man be born again. He was telling Jesus that that was impossible because a man can not reenter into his mothers womb. Jesus was saying that a man has two have two births. Born once of his mother(born of water, amniotic fluid) and born again a second time of the Holy Spirit( born of the spirit, reborn, born again). That's we Christians are called born again believers. We've experienced the second birth necessary to restore us to God and to enter into heaven after we die among other things. Our natural bodies can not enter into heaven in an unrepentant non born again state because of sin. We have to be born again in order to receive our new bodies to experience the rapture. Our new bodies can enter in but our old bodies can not.

 

[PaperClip]

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.[/quote]

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language.
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.

 

[Ms.Honey]

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language.
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.

I agree but the point I was trying to make was that it is not a requirement to receive salvation and was different than water baptism. I believe it is necessary even crucial to receive it.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

No, Jesus said that a man must be born again(reborn) Nicodemis asked Him how can a man be born again. He was telling Jesus that that was impossible because a man can not reenter into his mothers womb. Jesus was saying that a man has two have two births. Born once of his mother(born of water, amniotic fluid) and born again a second time of the Holy Spirit( born of the spirit, reborn, born again). That's we Christians are called born again believers. We've experienced the second birth necessary to restore us to God and to enter into heaven after we die among other things. Our natural bodies can not enter into heaven in an unrepentant non born again state because of sin. We have to be born again in order to receive our new bodies to experience the rapture. Our new bodies can enter in but our old bodies can not.

No, I don't think so otherwise, why would he have said "Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "" In every baptism, water is used. Why would he stress this? I don't think that's not answering my question somehow (I'm not trying to force it, though). Of course, he's using "birth" metaphorically. Conversion though?? Of course that man was born through his mother. It wouldn't apply to a non-entity or a person non-born. He's standing there talking to the guy. However, metaphorically, rebirth ...I don't see it relating literally to amnionic fluid other than the comparison to something human's are aware of. He's got to be pointing to something else. Water symbolism is important to Judaism, mayyim hayyim or "living waters." ????? We already discussed the mikveh. Humanly speaking, yes, we are nurtured in that water bath gestationally.

Basically, I think this is one of those beliefs in catholicism that differs from the protestant belief regarding conversion and communion, that it's not taken literally among protestants. Thanks for your explanation.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Hi. In that post Foxy is talking to the other poster about love towards the saints one towards the other being a sign to the world that we know God. Then she goes on to say that apart from that the Holy Ghost has a specific function and purpose for the believer and asked,"What is that sign, that evidence that is accessible to EVERY BELIEVER?" and I said Speaking in tongues is that sign. Love towards other Christians is a sign/evidence of being born again and speaking in tongues is a sign/evidence that you have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They're not the only signs/evidences but they are the main ones. Another one for the baptism is boldness to preach the gospel without fear of what others may say or do.

No one said that those who choose to receive it are better than those who choose not to. It is not required to receive salvation and to enter into heaven but gives you access to God through your heavenly language that no one, including the devil, can interpret but God and your spirit. It is a gift from God that is offered to every Christian to speak to God in private whenever we choose and to empower and embolden us to be witness unto Him. There is another tongues spoken of that we can not use whenever we choose that can be interpreted by others in their own languages.

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language.
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.[/quote]

Can I ask you which sect you belong to? So, according to yours, you *have * to speak in tongues to "prove" you're a christian? Wasn't their waiting for the H-ly Spirit to come for the BIRTH of the Church and the manifestation was the tongues and flames? I don't believe Paul advocated it for privacy. How could Jesus design the H-ly spirit? He created Him or co-exists with Him?

How can a man pray the divine will of G-d into existence? G-d spoke and the world was created...not man. It would have to be His act, not man's. And why is there so much emphasis on the devil and trying to "confound" him in personal prayers? That would suggest to me that this is a theology that doesn't believe in the omnipotence and omniscience of G-d. But I'm not trying to say that actually...asking. Can you understand my point of view?

This is getting deep...I might be drowning soon lol. So many asides to h-ly tongues coming up.

 

[Ms.Honey]

No, I don't think so otherwise, why would he have said "Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "" In every baptism, water is used. Why would he stress this? I don't think that's not answering my question somehow (I'm not trying to force it, though). Of course, he's using "birth" metaphorically. Conversion though?? Of course that man was born through his mother. It wouldn't apply to a non-entity or a person non-born. He's standing there talking to the guy. However, metaphorically, rebirth ...I don't see it relating literally to amnionic fluid other than the comparison to something human's are aware of. He's got to be pointing to something else. Water symbolism is important to Judaism, mayyim hayyim or "living waters." ????? We already discussed the mikveh. Humanly speaking, yes, we are nurtured in that water bath gestationally.

Basically, I think this is one of those beliefs in catholicism that differs from the protestant belief regarding conversion and communion, that it's not taken literally among protestants. Thanks for your explanation.

Nicodemus thought Jesus was saying that a man had to be literally born again through childbirth. Jesus was expalining that that was a natural occurence that everyone has to go through to be born but that birth that He was talking about was a spiritual rebirth not a natural birth.

He was not talking about water baptism. You may want to read the whole conversation they had. Water baptism is not considered of the fleshy earthy things but a holy rite, of God (spiritual) but childbirth is of this world and not spiritual but of the flesh. That's why He said that which comes from the flesh is flesh and that which comes from the Holy Spirit is spirit.

 

[PaperClip]

For clarity, addressing the points in bold.

Ultimately, it appears to me that this line of points seek to DIMINISH the existence, availability, and accessibility and yes, I'll even say a NECESSITY of the speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and I say sincerely and transparently that it is beginning to be a MAJOR CONCERN TO ME as this possible diminishment may mislead others from seeking their heavenly language.
The Bible commands believers to love one another. Amen. No doubt about that. Is this a sign of a born-again believer? Not as the Bible says in COMPARISON to resident manifestation of the Holy Spirit as EVIDENCED BY SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language.

Finally, the Holy Spirit and the heavenly language should not only be done in private as to SURPRESS the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is not some parlor trick to entertain folk. The heavenly language has a specific purpose at a specific time that NO ONE SHOULD BE ASHAMED ABOUT.

Can I ask you which sect you belong to? So, according to yours, you *have * to speak in tongues to "prove" you're a christian? Wasn't their waiting for the H-ly Spirit to come for the BIRTH of the Church and the manifestation was the tongues and flames? I don't believe Paul advocated it for privacy. How could Jesus design the H-ly spirit? He created Him or co-exists with Him?

I'm not familiar with the term "sect" to describe my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. But in the restrictive confinement of such banal earthly
categories, I grew up in the Church of God in Christ denomination.

I never used the term "prove" with regard to speaking in tongues as a sign of CHRISTIANITY, but clearly, as the Bible says in Acts 1-2: speaking in tongues is EVIDENCE of the INFILLING/BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT within the believer.

I used the word "design" in reference to the plan of the Lord God Almighty (wrapped up in flesh as the Lord Jesus Christ) that the Holy Spirit would be the presence of the Lord (without flesh) once the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven.


How can a man pray the divine will of G-d into existence? G-d spoke and the world was created...not man. It would have to be His act, not man's. Through the Holy Spirit. We (humans) each have a divine will of God for our lives. And we have free will to yield to that divine will or not. And why is there so much emphasis on the devil and trying to "confound" him in personal prayers? So much emphasis is subjective. Let's not diminish the existence of the enemy and his greatest skill of DECEPTION. I mean, the devil even tempted the Lord Jesus Christ so is that more or less emphasis? The devil tempted the Lord Jesus Christ so that means the devil is no respecter of persons, if you will, in tempting man. So yes, it matters to be well aware of the enemy's devices (2 Corinthians 2:11):

"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." (KJV)

That would suggest to me that this is a theology that doesn't believe in the omnipotence and omniscience of G-d. But I'm not trying to say that actually...asking. Can you understand my point of view?

This is getting deep...I might be drowning soon lol. So many asides to h-ly tongues coming up.[/quote]

What sect informs your faith/spirituality/religion?

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Nicodemus thought Jesus was saying that a man had to be literally born again through childbirth. Jesus was expalining that that was a natural occurence that everyone has to go through to be born but that birth that He was talking about was a spiritual rebirth not a natural birth.

He was not talking about water baptism. You may want to read the whole conversation they had. Water baptism is not considered of the fleshy earthy things but a holy rite, of God (spiritual) but childbirth is of this world and not spiritual but of the flesh. That's why He said that which comes from the flesh is flesh and that which comes from the Holy Spirit is spirit.

Exactly. He wouldn't have said you MUST be born of water AND spirit if one facet of that was natural birth. He might have said you must be born of the spirit or renewed of spirit. It's obvious the man was born. What happens to babies that are conceived but never born? Do they enter heaven? This is why I think it refers to circumcision which has now been transformed through water baptism as the conversion. For anyone who made it through birth, whether stillborn or alive, being born OF water AND spirit is something different that he's obviously indicating. That's why I say the precedent was circumcision, mikveh, temple sacrifices. Jesus was Jewish and He didn't change anything in the law given at Sinai, nothing. He was a Jew who obeyed everything that He was supposed to.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Can I ask you which sect you belong to? So, according to yours, you *have * to speak in tongues to "prove" you're a christian? Wasn't their waiting for the H-ly Spirit to come for the BIRTH of the Church and the manifestation was the tongues and flames? I don't believe Paul advocated it for privacy. How could Jesus design the H-ly spirit? He created Him or co-exists with Him?

I'm not familiar with the term "sect" to describe my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. But in the restrictive confinement of such banal earthly
categories, I grew up in the Church of God in Christ denomination.

I never used the term "prove" with regard to speaking in tongues as a sign of CHRISTIANITY, but clearly, as the Bible says in Acts 1-2: speaking in tongues is EVIDENCE of the INFILLING/BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT within the believer.

I used the word "design" in reference to the plan of the Lord God Almighty (wrapped up in flesh as the Lord Jesus Christ) that the Holy Spirit would be the presence of the Lord (without flesh) once the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven.


How can a man pray the divine will of G-d into existence? G-d spoke and the world was created...not man. It would have to be His act, not man's. Through the Holy Spirit. We (humans) each have a divine will of God for our lives. And we have free will to yield to that divine will or not. And why is there so much emphasis on the devil and trying to "confound" him in personal prayers? So much emphasis is subjective. Let's not diminish the existence of the enemy and his greatest skill of DECEPTION. I mean, the devil even tempted the Lord Jesus Christ so is that more or less emphasis? The devil tempted the Lord Jesus Christ so that means the devil is no respecter of persons, if you will, in tempting man. So yes, it matters to be well aware of the enemy's devices (2 Corinthians 2:11):

"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." (KJV)

That would suggest to me that this is a theology that doesn't believe in the omnipotence and omniscience of G-d. But I'm not trying to say that actually...asking. Can you understand my point of view?

This is getting deep...I might be drowning soon lol. So many asides to h-ly tongues coming up.

What sect informs your faith/spirituality/religion?[/quote]

I'm so sorry....I was meaning that for Ms. Honey about the purpose of tongues and salvation. I believe she said that it's necessary. My basis is the Torah. I attend both synagogue and mass. Hideous to some...I don't care. It's what we do lol.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

Wait a minute, Ms. Honey said this, right?
[/quote]
While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language[/quote]

 

[PaperClip]

Wait a minute, Ms. Honey said this, right?

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language[/quote][/quote]

I said this.

 

[Ms.Honey]

Exactly. He wouldn't have said you MUST be born of water AND spirit if one facet of that was natural birth. He might have said you must be born of the spirit or renewed of spirit. It's obvious the man was born. What happens to babies that are conceived but never born? Do they enter heaven? This is why I think it refers to circumcision which has now been transformed through water baptism as the conversion. For anyone who made it through birth, whether stillborn or alive, being born OF water AND spirit is something different that he's obviously indicating. That's why I say the precedent was circumcision, mikveh, temple sacrifices. Jesus was Jewish and He didn't change anything in the law given at Sinai, nothing. He was a Jew who obeyed everything that He was supposed to.

Did you read their whole conversation? They are talking about childbirth and spiritual rebirth. Do you have a Strong's Concordance? It'll give you the words in the original greek and the translation into English and their definitions. You also have to read all of the other scriptures about the differences between childbirth, water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ms.Honey]

What sect informs your faith/spirituality/religion?

I'm so sorry....I was meaning that for Ms. Honey about the purpose of tongues and salvation. I believe she said that it's necessary. My basis is the Torah. I attend both synagogue and mass. Hideous to some...I don't care. It's what we do lol.

I'm a Protestant Christian.

Why do you attend both if both believe the other is in disobedience to the Word. They are in direct conflict with one another. That's confusion.

I'm not really sure of what you want. Do you want us to explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost or do you want to give us the Catholic interpretation of John 3 and water baptism unto salvation?

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

While you say speaking in tongues is not required to get into heaven, meaning that speaking in tongues may not be a club stamp to get in the park, I EMPHATICALLY SAY speaking in tongues is a NECESSARY ASPECT of this salvation walk here on Planet Earth for several reasons outlined in scripture, e.g., edify the believer, pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers, and to pray the divine will of God into existence. I say the Holy Spirit is more than just OFFERED to the born-again believer. It is NECESSARY, or else why would the Lord Jesus Christ direct the 120 to WAIT FOR/EXPECT the HOLY SPIRIT TO COME (Acts 2)? Why? Because the Lord divinely designed the Holy Spirit with specific purposes, including the heavenly language

[/quote]

I said this.[/quote]
At some point, these quotes are getting jumbled about. So, she included your post in her quote. Okay, I thought you didn't feel this way in response to one of my questions. You say now that it is a necessary aspect of salvation but not an entry requirement (lol sounds like we're talking about Cedar Point Amus. Park!)? So, how is it necessary? To the salvation itself as in it is a gift included within the gift of salvation? Or that it is a necessary requirement of the believer? Why should I care that the devil can hear my prayers? I heard a priest once say that the time of greatest demonic activity is during mass because the aim is to distract people from worshipping etc. But G-d is present and is greater than evil, hands down.

So, it's necessarily included in the gift or it's necessary for the believer to demonstrate and tap into somehow for his salvation? I'm still not getting it. How is it necessary if not required?

 

[ladyofvirtue]

^^^Who is the man pictured above? What is the name of that building? Are you Jewish?

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[PaperClip]

I said this.[/quote]
At some point, these quotes are getting jumbled about. So, she included your post in her quote. Okay, I thought you didn't feel this way in response to one of my questions. You say now that it is a necessary aspect of salvation but not an entry requirement (lol sounds like we're talking about Cedar Point Amus. Park!)? So, how is it necessary? To the salvation itself as in it is a gift included within the gift of salvation? Or that it is a necessary requirement of the believer? Why should I care that the devil can hear my prayers? I heard a priest once say that the time of greatest demonic activity is during mass because the aim is to distract people from worshipping etc. But G-d is present and is greater than evil, hands down.

So, it's necessarily included in the gift or it's necessary for the believer to demonstrate and tap into somehow for his salvation? I'm still not getting it. How is it necessary if not required?[/quote]

FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED

I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself.

As has been cited through SEVERAL NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, the Holy Spirit has a specific role, function, and purpose for the believer. Among these specifics are:

--to edify the believer

--pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers

--and to pray the divine will of God into existence

I assert that without the Holy Spirit in general and speaking in tongues in particular, the believer is functioning in a weaker state and has fewer resources by which to overcome the wiles of the devil. I repeat, why would the Lord Jesus Christ call for the 120 to wait in the upper room (Acts 2) for the Holy Spirit to come? Because the Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord (outside of the flesh) and that the Holy Spirit has specific functions to support the believer in navigating this world. And further in Acts 2, it is mentioned that the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.

Why should you care that the devil hears your prayers? I'm not saying you should care about that more than one's personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. But a couple of things to note: believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are in this world, not of this world. We are in a war so why allow the opposition to hear your war strategies? 2 Corinthians 10:4: "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;"

The Lord Jesus Christ has done all that He's going to do on the CROSS. We as believers have to do our part. The Lord Jesus Christ is onmipresent and has all power in His hand and yet if we refuse to utilize the equipment He's made accessible to us, then He's not going to force us.

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

I'm a Protestant Christian.

Why do you attend both if both believe the other is in disobedience to the Word. They are in direct conflict with one another. That's confusion.

I'm not really sure of what you want. Do you want us to explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost or do you want to give us the Catholic interpretation of John 3 and water baptism unto salvation?

I'm a Protestant Christian.

Why do you attend both if both believe the other is in disobedience to the Word. They are in direct conflict with one another. That's confusion.

I'm not really sure of what you want. Do you want us to explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost or do you want to give us the Catholic interpretation of John 3 and water baptism unto salvation?

We're a mixed family. And to tell the truth, catholics do not teach that Jews are in disobedience. Some Jews think christians are pagans with 3 G-ds. Secular Jews don't care. We here all know that's not true about christians being pagan. No. Even Shmuley Boteach, leading rabbi, has agreed that christians are monotheists.

Catholics don't teach that non-catholics are going to hell in the way many protestants do. The covenant still remains with the Jews and has not been usurped by christian gentiles. Israel is still Israel. Jews haven't been thrown out and replaced. Gentiles, according to catholicism, have been grated onto the vine. That vine is Jewish, it came first.

I do realize there are varying opinions about the Messiah. Messianic Judaism attempts to address this issue. There are also associations of Jews who have become catholic and address these issues. Not confusion...but through study, through seeking, one arrives at truths.
In other words, I don't think G-d expects anyone to throw out their brains to be religious. Question, argue, question, argue, and on and on...I mean with G-d. This is the Jew's existence, believe me.

I've been asking you to explain the baptism of the H-ly Ghost according to your traditions. So, I guess, in light of the catholic interpretation, how exactly the protestant sect differs according to exegesis. Just quoting scripture doesn't seem enough because both are quoting scripture. It's in the widely held, studied and agreed upon interpretation as one body or through a magisterium that I'm seeking to witness. I dunno, was it Calvinism? Luther? What?

You and FoxxyScholar are seeing these from diff. points of view yet you both are protestant but she's Church of G-d. Is yours non-denominational? I don't mean to intrude too much but that's why I asked which sect of protestantism. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." In coming from Jewish tradition (origin of the Church) where there was not only scripture, there was the oral law handed down from G-d to Moses and from Moses to Aaron and all in the priesthood on down up until even these generations, this has been that tradition spoken of.

So, I'm trying to figure out how tongues are necessary for salvation. It seems to be open up to diff. interpretations in a variety of protestant sects as the wind blows. That's not an insult, that's just an observation. Maybe I'm approaching this incorrectly?

Which aspect of salvation is it necessary? And I'm not even sure I comprehend salvation from your standpoint either. When people say "saved," what do they mean? From shame, sin, suffering and death? IMHO, that will be the final after one is in heaven. I'm not saved living on this earth. Conversion is one thing, perseverance until the end is another.

So, see, it's like this. 2000 years of Church history and tradition and tenets set ages ago and still followed to this very day as opposed to changing interpretations of tenets of the faith...preceded by 3 thousand years of Jewish tradition which catholics still draw from, in tact...I'm more inclined to look there for answers to questions. Not everyone is the same. Some will say there is confusion or that you're trying to sit on two chairs with one butt. But if you want to know, you go about seeking it. I don't stay cloistered at all and I refuse friends and family who try to tell me otherwise. I'm obviously not made of the same mold hehehe.

If this is disjointed...please excuse...I've got a kid in my ear trying to boost me from the computer and digging my ear with annoyances...oh boy!

 

[GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I]

FOXYSCHOLAR'S RESPONSE BEGINS HERE IN RED

I sort of feel like I'm repeating myself.

As has been cited through SEVERAL NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES, the Holy Spirit has a specific role, function, and purpose for the believer. Among these specifics are:

--to edify the believer

--pray so that the devil is unable to understand your prayers

--and to pray the divine will of God into existence

I assert that without the Holy Spirit in general and speaking in tongues in particular, the believer is functioning in a weaker state and has fewer resources by which to overcome the wiles of the devil. I repeat, why would the Lord Jesus Christ call for the 120 to wait in the upper room (Acts 2) for the Holy Spirit to come? Because the Holy Spirit is the presence of the Lord (outside of the flesh) and that the Holy Spirit has specific functions to support the believer in navigating this world. And further in Acts 2, it is mentioned that the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance.


But that still is not indicating how speaking in tongues is necessary FOR salvation. I guess I should ask what you consider salvation to be. What I'm hearing is that tongues is necessary evidence that one is righteous and "saved." But then, it's said the opposite. Which is it? Necessary to BE saved or a necessary component given in the gift of salvation that not ALL believers have tapped into?

 

[Ms.Honey]

We're a mixed family. And to tell the truth, catholics do not teach that Jews are in disobedience. Some Jews think christians are pagans with 3 G-ds. Secular Jews don't care. We here all know that's not true about christians being pagan. No. Even Shmuley Boteach, leading rabbi, has agreed that christians are monotheists.

Catholics don't teach that non-catholics are going to hell in the way many protestants do. The covenant still remains with the Jews and has not been usurped by christian gentiles. Israel is still Israel. Jews haven't been thrown out and replaced. Gentiles, according to catholicism, have been grated onto the vine. That vine is Jewish, it came first.

I do realize there are varying opinions about the Messiah. Messianic Judaism attempts to address this issue. There are also associations of Jews who have become catholic and address these issues. Not confusion...but through study, through seeking, one arrives at truths.
In other words, I don't think G-d expects anyone to throw out their brains to be religious. Question, argue, question, argue, and on and on...I mean with G-d. This is the Jew's existence, believe me.

I've been asking you to explain the baptism of the H-ly Ghost according to your traditions. So, I guess, in light of the catholic interpretation, how exactly the protestant sect differs according to exegesis. Just quoting scripture doesn't seem enough because both are quoting scripture. It's in the widely held, studied and agreed upon interpretation as one body or through a magisterium that I'm seeking to witness. I dunno, was it Calvinism? Luther? What?

You and FoxxyScholar are seeing these from diff. points of view yet you both are protestant but she's Church of G-d. Is yours non-denominational? I don't mean to intrude too much but that's why I asked which sect of protestantism. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." In coming from Jewish tradition (origin of the Church) where there was not only scripture, there was the oral law handed down from G-d to Moses and from Moses to Aaron and all in the priesthood on down up until even these generations, this has been that tradition spoken of.

So, I'm trying to figure out how tongues are necessary for salvation. It seems to be open up to diff. interpretations in a variety of protestant sects as the wind blows. That's not an insult, that's just an observation. Maybe I'm approaching this incorrectly?

Which aspect of salvation is it necessary? And I'm not even sure I comprehend salvation from your standpoint either. When people say "saved," what do they mean? From shame, sin, suffering and death? IMHO, that will be the final after one is in heaven. I'm not saved living on this earth. Conversion is one thing, perseverance until the end is another.

So, see, it's like this. 2000 years of Church history and tradition and tenets set ages ago and still followed to this very day as opposed to changing interpretations of tenets of the faith...preceded by 3 thousand years of Jewish tradition which catholics still draw from, in tact...I'm more inclined to look there for answers to questions. Not everyone is the same. Some will say there is confusion or that you're trying to sit on two chairs with one butt. But if you want to know, you go about seeking it. I don't stay cloistered at all and I refuse friends and family who try to tell me otherwise. I'm obviously not made of the same mold hehehe.

If this is disjointed...please excuse...I've got a kid in my ear trying to boost me from the computer and digging my ear with annoyances...oh boy!

I'm not part of a sect other than Christianity being an extension of Judaism. I'm non denominational.

I don't think Foxy is saying you have to speak in tongues to go to heaven but that it's important to our Christian walk. No one is saying speaking in tongues is necessary to receive salvation. I don't know why you keep saying that. As far as I can see we are saying the same thing(Foxy and I).

Catholics believe that Jesus is the Messiah and God but the Jews (non Messianic) do not believe that He is either. You are practicing both. That is what is confusion.

Are you trying to teach us what Jews and Catholics believe about stuff or do you want to know why it's important to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost? Just pray to God for understanding or disagree with what we believe. I don't think we can explain it any other way than we have been.