caribeandiva
Human being
She actually does have a valid point. No one's superior to someone else because of hair choices. that's what i got from her vid.
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To you "So called NATURAL women"
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MichelleMyBelle
Well-Known Member
BlaqBella
Well-Known Member
I've been lol..and didn't even watch the video. But there's been some good points made in this thread. The poster that spoke about bw being SO judge mental it's true but we're not alone. I work with now/past a whole slew of yt's that are too.You made some good points though.
FemmeCreole
Island Gyal
give me back those 3 minutes of my life I just wasted on this video...... this chick said the same thing over and over
I don't know if you mis-read or mis-interpreted my post, but I don't see a problem with interracial dating, just like I don't see a problem with women choosing to relax their hair, but I do see a correlation between the two issues. I don't see how someone else can't see the irony there.
It's like Frederick Douglass being a pioneer for black rights, yet marrying a white woman. Doesn't take away from his "blackness" or what he did for black people, but it certainly begs the question when it comes to certain psychological race issues. (I do realize that he was biracial). The fact that she points this out clearly shows that she's learning/has learned something as a sociology major.
A family friend of mine is pursuing a doctorate and all of her black female professors are well-educated, have natural hair, and are married to white men. All of them.That's not a coincidence. (A lot of are also atheist/agnostic, but that's a different thread.) My friend happens to be married to a man of a different race (not white) and she's feeling the pressure to go natural based on side comments by her professors and peers.
I think that to say "this person is ignorant" because they don't agree with you is quite arrogant. I'm not attacking you, but this dismissive arrogance is what she has encountered with naturals and it's exactly why she made the video.
I'm not going to go into the "kiddie perm" issue because that has nothing to do with this thread & I already commented on that in the children's hair section (wish I hadn't).
ConstantlyDynamic
Well-Known Member
sorry for the length lol i just wanted to address all of the points
i never said you had a problem with interracial relationships but i said that her logic was flawed and can only be applied to women who exclusively date outside of their race. i'm not sure how dating inter-racially affects your blackness (which is what she implied because she said she couldn't understand how women who tell others to love their blackness or black hair could date whites as if these two things go against each other). unless these women refuse to date black men and see black men as inferior to white men, her argument doesn't work. they just happen to love their blackness but also see the beauty in others. same with the douglass example. douglass had also married a black woman earlier and had been in several relationships with black women. so, he fell in love with a white woman later- a woman who believed in his cause. i don't see the irony. now if douglass had ONLY dated white women, i could see it. i mean, how can you love your blackness then shun black women? but that wasn't the case.
what background do these women have? i.e. what type of school did they go to? if you go to a predominantly white school or work in an area that is mostly white etc., white people will be the ones you interact with more often. most people choose their mates from their environment or people who have the same education. do they exclusively date white men or see them as being better? i can't see the irony with the info you gave
if she actually had a clear, coherent argument, i would have nothing to say against her. i stated several times that there are some judgmental naturals out there so i agree on that but she lost me after that. i don't always agree with everyone around me. i get into some heated debates with a few of my friends but i don't see them as ignorant or unintelligent because they make very good points and i respect their opinions (interestingly enough, i never get into hair arguments with my relaxed friends b/c they are grown women and i respect their decision). but i'm aware when someone is just running their mouths and that's what she was doing
i never said you had a problem with interracial relationships but i said that her logic was flawed and can only be applied to women who exclusively date outside of their race. i'm not sure how dating inter-racially affects your blackness (which is what she implied because she said she couldn't understand how women who tell others to love their blackness or black hair could date whites as if these two things go against each other). unless these women refuse to date black men and see black men as inferior to white men, her argument doesn't work. they just happen to love their blackness but also see the beauty in others. same with the douglass example. douglass had also married a black woman earlier and had been in several relationships with black women. so, he fell in love with a white woman later- a woman who believed in his cause. i don't see the irony. now if douglass had ONLY dated white women, i could see it. i mean, how can you love your blackness then shun black women? but that wasn't the case.
what background do these women have? i.e. what type of school did they go to? if you go to a predominantly white school or work in an area that is mostly white etc., white people will be the ones you interact with more often. most people choose their mates from their environment or people who have the same education. do they exclusively date white men or see them as being better? i can't see the irony with the info you gave
if she actually had a clear, coherent argument, i would have nothing to say against her. i stated several times that there are some judgmental naturals out there so i agree on that but she lost me after that. i don't always agree with everyone around me. i get into some heated debates with a few of my friends but i don't see them as ignorant or unintelligent because they make very good points and i respect their opinions (interestingly enough, i never get into hair arguments with my relaxed friends b/c they are grown women and i respect their decision). but i'm aware when someone is just running their mouths and that's what she was doing
DigitalRain
Well-Known Member
A few of my brain cells just died from watching this crap. She doing the same thing she claims "natural women" are doing to her. Hypocrisy at its best.
Is it just me who thinks she's trying to act sexy?
Is it just me who thinks she's trying to act sexy?
Okay, here's one of the many definitions of "irony"
A woman who preaches about the joys of blackness, being black, black hair, embracing who you are, not turning you back on your culture, i.e, many naturals, would be "expected" to likewise embrace and marry a black man....however, in an overwhelming number of cases, the result is contrary to what might have been expected.
I'm just going to be extra-controversial and put it out there....there are SOME black people who seek out a mate of a different race because they either actually do think they are "too good" for a black mate, or because they want their children to have lighter features and better hair....yes, I said better hair.
There are those who outwardly appear to be completely confident in their racial identity (not afraid to rock their natural hair, etc), yet are actually still struggling with their racial identity and their interracial relationship is a manifestation of this struggle. These are the same people who look down on stereotypical black culture. All of a sudden, they are above fried chicken, the Baptist church, relaxers, and certainly dealing with black men. I'm putting it much more eloquently than it was stated in the video, but this is what she was saying. Some people's motivation for going vegan, becoming agnostic, going natural, going green, and dating a person of another race is simply to separate themselves from black culture. Period. NOT EVERYONE, but some.
Likewise, some white people date blacks as a rebellion against the negative acts that their forefathers have committed. This is the "wigga" syndrome. Some black men and white women date each other under the "forbidden fruit" theory. Louis Farrahkan has spoken extensively about this phenomenon.
My point is that there are countless psychological theories related to interracial dating....People often do simply fall in love with someone and it "just happens," but there's too much going on in society to act like there's not a connection between who someone chooses to date and marry and what's going on in their head.
More examples.....
Strom Thurman openly opposing civil right and spewing racist comments, yet secretly carrying on an affair with with a black woman and fathering several biracial children....still don't see any irony there?
Countless professional athletes, many of whom grew up in the ghetto seeking out women of a different race to marry. It's widely accepted that most of these men do this in attempt to validate themselves....if this theory rings to pro athletes, why does it not ring true for many successful black women as well? There was an uproar over Reggie Bush on the cover of Essence, yet no uproar over Halle Berry's interracial relationship.
Eh, I know my popularity meter on this site is going to plummet even further, but I'm soooo tired of people acting like the obvious doesn't exist.
Mizz Diamonds
Well-Known Member
^^get what you are saying, leaving thread now.
ConstantlyDynamic
Well-Known Member
@solitude
i'm aware of most of the things that you said (i.e. "wigga" syndrome). a couple i've written about in my previous posts.i also noted that some people are in interracial relationships for the wrong reasons when i referred to women (whether natural or not) who exclusively date white- i think they do have image issues and i've been saying that in my posts so we agree on the same thing.
about your examples:
i feel like the first one fed into what i was saying. strom thurman was racist against blacks yet had a black mistress- that's sort of similar to the example of a natural who exclusively dates white and thinks whites are better- the actions don't match the ideology and that is unexpected. it shouldn't be unexpected for a natural to be with a white man (i think this is where we deviate) because being natural doesn't mean you only like black men. that's why i can't see the irony
to your 2nd example-halle doesn't get trashed because this is the first white man she has ever been with whereas reggie bush has never dated a black women EVER (even when he was younger). but anyway,many factors affect who you date and not all of them are psychological. sometimes it's just your life circumstances.
you were right when you said you were going to put it more eloquently than she did. she wasn't articulate at all. but anyway i can't post here anymore lol this has been my escape from doing homework. in all, i respect that we have different opinions. that's life
i'm aware of most of the things that you said (i.e. "wigga" syndrome). a couple i've written about in my previous posts.i also noted that some people are in interracial relationships for the wrong reasons when i referred to women (whether natural or not) who exclusively date white- i think they do have image issues and i've been saying that in my posts so we agree on the same thing.
about your examples:
i feel like the first one fed into what i was saying. strom thurman was racist against blacks yet had a black mistress- that's sort of similar to the example of a natural who exclusively dates white and thinks whites are better- the actions don't match the ideology and that is unexpected. it shouldn't be unexpected for a natural to be with a white man (i think this is where we deviate) because being natural doesn't mean you only like black men. that's why i can't see the irony
to your 2nd example-halle doesn't get trashed because this is the first white man she has ever been with whereas reggie bush has never dated a black women EVER (even when he was younger). but anyway,many factors affect who you date and not all of them are psychological. sometimes it's just your life circumstances.
you were right when you said you were going to put it more eloquently than she did. she wasn't articulate at all. but anyway i can't post here anymore lol this has been my escape from doing homework. in all, i respect that we have different opinions. that's life
strands.of.gold
New Member
exactly. everyone is spending so much time tearing her down because of her demeanor or some faulty analogies, but it seems like no one wants to actually sit back and...think...about what she said.
What I find funny, though, is that a lot of the responses in the thread exhibit the very behavior to which she referred (mocking her hair, diction, etc)... thereby proving her point.
UrbainChic
Well-Known Member
All of the opinions are valid in my opinion, we all know or know of someone with issues, who always tries to act " better than" who is a "natural nazi" and probably a person like that is the target of that woman's extremely poorly articulated rant.
For me the problem comes with the flawed analogy of:
Natural Hair= Afrocentricity
which then causes a "problem" of "hypocrisy " for acting "white"
Actually, when I look at my own upbringing, and other supposedly "white acting, sushi eating etc" naturals, I would dare say natural hair is MUCH more in line with "white" culture than afrocentricity. As anyone who has grown up in a white community knows, you don't have to do anything to remind people you are black, and people love to remind you in case you forgot, so it doesn't matter what you do with your damn hair.
I have said it a billion times, and I will say it again. Relaxing my hair was too much maintenance and work for me. The way I saw it was, I don't hate my hair the way it grows out of my head, and I think its really unfair that I would have to dedicate every other saturday to a roller set, or spend all day ( AND ALL THAT MONEY) waiting my turn to get a touch up while all the white kids got to go out and live life or sleep in on the weekends.
That in my opinion is a better connection to " talking white and eating sushi", than some weird afrocentricity/self-hate dualistic hypocrisy.
Sure there is obviously some self love that comes with it, including the rejection of the straight hair ideal (which affects all races-- if you know any white people, you will know they fight their curls with relaxers and flat irons while saying they " hate their hair") But not all self love is necessarily afrocentric, or some sort of cry for attention. generalizations of that nature are just..... retarded. Why can't it just be good old fashioned self love?
The black people and women I surround myself with don't get hung up on this acting black/ acting white bullsh-t so I am constantly surprised and disgusted when I hear this kind of nonsense. I prefer to spend time around people of color who note, that though we share a common experience in this country because of our ancestry, we are all individuals and nothing is off limits to us. MOST of us relax, only a few of us don't but I am pretty damn sure this dummy in the video would probably call us all "white acting."
I mean why shouldn't you eat sushi or do things white people do? Like live with the freedom to wash my hair every day, and just walk out the goddamn door? You just gonna let white people have everything right? Should I just scurry back into the corner and work withwhatever is left over that white people don't want, even if its not interesting or appealing to me????? If I'm supposed to abandon all things associate with white people, why did we desegregate america? When people act like white people give them a rash, it really makes me think, maybe you would all prefer to go back to a segregated world.
Also, speaking of irony, (everyones favorite topic on this thread), I find it completely ironic, that "Christians" who worship an image of a white Jesus, ( who by all historical accounts should not have blonde hair or rosy cheeks and look like a Dutchman if he was roaming around in the middle east. Its in the book of revelations depending on your translation "hair like a lamb and skin like copper") like to act like that is the epitome of blackness while agnosticism, or atheism is some "white people" trend that you "pretend to do".
I didnt know questioning what you were told is for white people. Whoops, I guess all those black agnostics and atheists should get back in line. Good thing no one ever questioned segregation! BTW I am ROMAN CATHOLIC, my family has been for generations, am i still black or do I need to be Baptist? and veganism, its so easy to do, its clearly just an act to appeal to white people. I will be sure to tell my non-white vegan friends this!
We are all a product of our environment. Last time I checked, being black was about brown skin and having relatively recent ancestors from africa. As someone who grew up in a non-american BUT VERY BLACK family, there's a lot of things I just dont experience. Certain foods, music, expressions, you name it. When you land in a new country, which is SO FULL OF OPPORTUNITY and that has room for SO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE that you take the freedome to pick and choose the things YOU LIKE, and forge a life YOU LOVE. You don't just go do whatever all the people look like you do as if you're "not allowed" to do the other things.
That is why I can stand here and be black as hell, and say that I dont have to be Baptist, I dont have to relax my hair, I dont even have to know what nappy means, I can talk like a valley girl, eat all the damn sushi i want and I can still be Black. But when someone tries to strip me of my Black identity or experience because I AM NOT LIKE THEM, I am liable to get extremely heated.
For me the problem comes with the flawed analogy of:
Natural Hair= Afrocentricity
which then causes a "problem" of "hypocrisy " for acting "white"
Actually, when I look at my own upbringing, and other supposedly "white acting, sushi eating etc" naturals, I would dare say natural hair is MUCH more in line with "white" culture than afrocentricity. As anyone who has grown up in a white community knows, you don't have to do anything to remind people you are black, and people love to remind you in case you forgot, so it doesn't matter what you do with your damn hair.
I have said it a billion times, and I will say it again. Relaxing my hair was too much maintenance and work for me. The way I saw it was, I don't hate my hair the way it grows out of my head, and I think its really unfair that I would have to dedicate every other saturday to a roller set, or spend all day ( AND ALL THAT MONEY) waiting my turn to get a touch up while all the white kids got to go out and live life or sleep in on the weekends.
That in my opinion is a better connection to " talking white and eating sushi", than some weird afrocentricity/self-hate dualistic hypocrisy.
Sure there is obviously some self love that comes with it, including the rejection of the straight hair ideal (which affects all races-- if you know any white people, you will know they fight their curls with relaxers and flat irons while saying they " hate their hair") But not all self love is necessarily afrocentric, or some sort of cry for attention.
generalizations of that nature are just..... retarded. Why can't it just be good old fashioned self love?The black people and women I surround myself with don't get hung up on this acting black/ acting white bullsh-t so I am constantly surprised and disgusted when I hear this kind of nonsense. I prefer to spend time around people of color who note, that though we share a common experience in this country because of our ancestry, we are all individuals and nothing is off limits to us. MOST of us relax, only a few of us don't but I am pretty damn sure this dummy in the video would probably call us all "white acting."
I mean why shouldn't you eat sushi or do things white people do? Like live with the freedom to wash my hair every day, and just walk out the goddamn door? You just gonna let white people have everything right? Should I just scurry back into the corner and work withwhatever is left over that white people don't want, even if its not interesting or appealing to me????? If I'm supposed to abandon all things associate with white people, why did we desegregate america? When people act like white people give them a rash, it really makes me think, maybe you would all prefer to go back to a segregated world.
Also, speaking of irony, (everyones favorite topic on this thread), I find it completely ironic, that "Christians" who worship an image of a white Jesus, ( who by all historical accounts should not have blonde hair or rosy cheeks and look like a Dutchman if he was roaming around in the middle east. Its in the book of revelations depending on your translation "hair like a lamb and skin like copper") like to act like that is the epitome of blackness while agnosticism, or atheism is some "white people" trend that you "pretend to do".
I didnt know questioning what you were told is for white people. Whoops, I guess all those black agnostics and atheists should get back in line. Good thing no one ever questioned segregation!
BTW I am ROMAN CATHOLIC, my family has been for generations, am i still black or do I need to be Baptist? and veganism, its so easy to do, its clearly just an act to appeal to white people. I will be sure to tell my non-white vegan friends this! We are all a product of our environment. Last time I checked, being black was about brown skin and having relatively recent ancestors from africa. As someone who grew up in a non-american BUT VERY BLACK family, there's a lot of things I just dont experience. Certain foods, music, expressions, you name it. When you land in a new country, which is SO FULL OF OPPORTUNITY and that has room for SO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE that you take the freedome to pick and choose the things YOU LIKE, and forge a life YOU LOVE. You don't just go do whatever all the people look like you do as if you're "not allowed" to do the other things.
That is why I can stand here and be black as hell, and say that I dont have to be Baptist, I dont have to relax my hair, I dont even have to know what nappy means, I can talk like a valley girl, eat all the damn sushi i want and I can still be Black. But when someone tries to strip me of my Black identity or experience because I AM NOT LIKE THEM, I am liable to get extremely heated.
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GaiasDaughter24
New Member
Couldn't watch the whole thing. She lost me at "mines" and "talk white". I've been told I "talk white" all of my life. It was usually by ignorant people. I assume she's one as well.
Cisselette
New Member
Exactly. Why does having natural hair as a BW need to be such a big deal? Can't somebody just LIKE it the way it is without being accused of ulterior motive? Seriously.
UrbainChic,
I was simply stating well known theories– that some people date or marry a person of another race based on reasons other than love, and that there are some black people who shun traditional black culture, whatever they may deem that to be. It has nothing to do, specifically, with the Baptist religion, or any of the other examples that I named. There were only examples. You can google interracial marriage and dating and a million and one articles will come up – some in support of the theories I mentioned, and some against.
I hope that I have not offended the many women on this board who are in interracial marriages and relationships. It was not my intent to do so.
I had not intended to come back and post anything else in this thread because my points were made several times and quite thoroughly explained, but on the atheist/agnostic/White Jesus issue, that’s really a whole other thread, that I’m sure has come up in the “off topic” section. I personally don’t practice my religion based on “White Jesus” or “Black Jesus” or any other man-made depiction of what Jesus may or may not have looked like….that has nothing to do with the basic tenets of my faith. It’s just “distracter” issue used to divide people of the Christian faith, in my opinion.
People are free to do whatever they choose to do. I am simply pointing out that a lot of time, people’s choices are based on deeper psychological issues….I don’t see what the debate is about….
Um…who said to abandon all things associated with White people? I never said that. I eat sushi, I’m well-educated, I have my degree & I’m working on the next one, so yes…I speak and write well, and I love to read. I travel, I blog….I just don’t let my degree or my accomplishments or my lifestyle choices make me think that I’m better than anyone else. It’s not about disassociating with White people. It’s about NOT JUDGING other Black people, especially if you have your own unresolved issues.
Lastly, I don’t see what difference it makes if you grew up in America or not. It doesn’t matter if you grew up in a “Black” family or not. The same classism/racism/elitism/and social issues arise in every country and every culture, just in different forms.
I hope that label does not get attached to all naturals, just as I hope that the myth that every woman who relaxes her hair is suffering from self-hate goes away. However, that’s unlikely. I think if a woman was “supposedly” suffering from self-hate while relaxing, that psychological issue doesn’t immediately disappear when she transitions her hair.
Well, the original video posted wasn’t about natural hair. It was about women with natural hair judging women who relax their hair and wear weaves. The only people I see making that big of a deal about natural hair is women with natural hair.
I was simply stating well known theories– that some people date or marry a person of another race based on reasons other than love, and that there are some black people who shun traditional black culture, whatever they may deem that to be. It has nothing to do, specifically, with the Baptist religion, or any of the other examples that I named. There were only examples. You can google interracial marriage and dating and a million and one articles will come up – some in support of the theories I mentioned, and some against.
I hope that I have not offended the many women on this board who are in interracial marriages and relationships. It was not my intent to do so.
I had not intended to come back and post anything else in this thread because my points were made several times and quite thoroughly explained, but on the atheist/agnostic/White Jesus issue, that’s really a whole other thread, that I’m sure has come up in the “off topic” section. I personally don’t practice my religion based on “White Jesus” or “Black Jesus” or any other man-made depiction of what Jesus may or may not have looked like….that has nothing to do with the basic tenets of my faith. It’s just “distracter” issue used to divide people of the Christian faith, in my opinion.
People are free to do whatever they choose to do. I am simply pointing out that a lot of time, people’s choices are based on deeper psychological issues….I don’t see what the debate is about….
Um…who said to abandon all things associated with White people? I never said that. I eat sushi, I’m well-educated, I have my degree & I’m working on the next one, so yes…I speak and write well, and I love to read. I travel, I blog….I just don’t let my degree or my accomplishments or my lifestyle choices make me think that I’m better than anyone else. It’s not about disassociating with White people. It’s about NOT JUDGING other Black people, especially if you have your own unresolved issues.
Lastly, I don’t see what difference it makes if you grew up in America or not. It doesn’t matter if you grew up in a “Black” family or not. The same classism/racism/elitism/and social issues arise in every country and every culture, just in different forms.
I hope that label does not get attached to all naturals, just as I hope that the myth that every woman who relaxes her hair is suffering from self-hate goes away. However, that’s unlikely. I think if a woman was “supposedly” suffering from self-hate while relaxing, that psychological issue doesn’t immediately disappear when she transitions her hair.
Well, the original video posted wasn’t about natural hair. It was about women with natural hair judging women who relax their hair and wear weaves. The only people I see making that big of a deal about natural hair is women with natural hair.
Cisselette
New Member
I don't think the woman in that video makes that distinction. In first 50 seconds she said:
"Is it because you wear your hair natural... does that make you a so-called sister?"
And yes, I did watch the whole video.
In the "assumptions because you have natural hair" thread and many other threads, women have stated that people around them assume they're afro-centrist BECAUSE they have natural hair.
It happens to me on a regular basis too, so I can speak from experience.
Her video is full of the same assumptions and stereotypes she's trying to denounce.
Seriously, had she made that video without the "blacker than thou" sarcasm, I might have taken her seriously.
I'm not afro-centrist. I'm African. That's good enough for me.
labellenoire
New Member
I usually don't post on this board 1) Because I've mostly been a lurker and 2) I find it more interesting to read because somebody already reflects my thoughts. HOWEVER, as a black woman in an interracial relationship, your comments are quite offensive. You may perhaps not have intended to offend, but you did and I will subsequently address where, in my opinion, your erred!
There are a lot of underlying ASSumptions in your argument. As an example, I pull from your quote: "These are the same people who look down on stereotypical black culture". As a non-Black American, I find it very bizzarre how some individuals in the African American community in the US assume that being of the Black race somehow equates us [black people around the world] sharing 'black culture'. There is no co-relation with the exeception that we share the same skin colour (and even that comes in made shades and grades). Your assumption cannot be any more fallicious. Black people in different geographical zones of the world have experienced different historical trajectories (though of course, our histories have converged at several historical junctures and will continue to do so); thus, our 'cultures' are often different. So, these stereotypes that you refer to i.e friend chicken, Baptist Church, etc I do not and have never shared as a Black woman and yet to refer to them as 'Black culture'. Therefore if and when a black person makes mockery of them, do not assume that the said individual is rejecting his/her 'blackness'. It boils down to the simple fact that all black communities around the world experience culture differently!
On to your next quote: "My point is that there are countless psychological theories related to interracial dating....People often do simply fall in love with someone and it "just happens," but there's too much going on in society to act like there's not a connection between who someone chooses to date and marry and what's going on in their head" I can find countless psychological theories why people date in the patterns they do (be in intra-racially or inter-racially), so what's your point? That a Black person who chooses to date/marry another Black person is more psychologically 'in tune' than a Black person who chooses to date/marry a White person? For the same 'out of tune' psychological reasons that you assume a Black person who chooses to date/marry another White person does so, you can equally argue that a Black person who chooses to date/marry another Black person does the same. So stop assuming that because these psychological theories exist mean that they actually answer any questions because they don't! That's why they are called what they are: THEORIES not FACT! This is one of many things in life that can be argued one way or another depending of one's biased point of view.
Iluvsmuhgrass
Well-Known Member
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